[Poplin]

Hello Friends:

It's a new day (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,113521,00.html) in Iraq as the powers that be gathered to sign a new constitution today. Strangely enough, actual copies of this document are hard to come by on the usual internet sources. The one I've found is a translated draft here (http://www.geocities.com/nathanbrown1/taldraftjan2004.html) .

As expected:

Article 16. It shall be forbidden to carry weapons for self-defense except by permit issued according to law.

.

[idd]

So gun control comes to Iraq.

/toggle sarcasm on

Then they should have really safe country.

/toggle sarcasm off

[Dave R]

Sad. So, will Iraq wind up being a "shall issue" country, or a "no way YOU can get a permit" country, like Kalifornia?

[Boats]

If you read it, that is the same provision as in most of the United States. The Iraqi Constitution doesn't bar one from keeping arms, just carrying them about without a permit. I am not defending that position, but it is not all that hypocritical in light of our own federal government's disrespect of the 2A.

[Poplin]

Nope...

The text of the actual document, as reported by FOX News (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,113576,00.html) :

Article 17. It shall not be permitted to possess, bear, buy, or sell arms except on licensure issued in accordance with the law.

*sigh*

[Parker Dean]

I didn't read the whole thing, but what I did manage to read so far reads like dreary PC garbage.

Then a thought occurred. A lot of it seems to deal with issues raised here in the U.S. and either settled in court or with a new law. So is this the condensed version of U.S. federal law?

[AmericanFreeBird]

I wonder if the Iraquis or the Americans came up with that?

It sounds like a modern day, American, Federal view of We the Peons.

:rolleyes:

[lapidator]

Ladies and Gents, we are the last. We we're gone, liberty leaves with us.

Sad day.

Lapidator

[Waitone]

Hold off drinking the koolaid.

It is an interim constitution, not the final document. It allows the ball to get moving toward general elections. The interim consitution will be carefully reviewed. There are those in the country who have fresh scars and missing limbs and who have a better understanding of the reality of arms better than any of us here safe in the USofA.

I fully expect to see a different amendment on arms. The country now is an armed camp. The only people doing the killing are people who will not pay any attention to paper like constitutions or law. Does all this sound familar?

Iraqi's are not stupid. They are merely coming out of a horror the likes of which we can not imaging.

It may be interesting to see if we can scare up an Iraqi member on THR for his or her comments.

[Sean Smith]

The government the Iraqis come up with is their business. As long as they don't wind up a menace to the world at large, or us in particular, I really don't give a damn.

[ClonaKilty]

I posted this on the other, similar thread but here goes...

Article 17: It's an anti-right. It says Iraqis can NOT own, purchase or bear arms, unless the government gives them a license.

This is of course what is how US Politicians would re-write the US Constitution if they could (which is why a Constitutional Convention now would be a disaster).

[Standing Wolf]

I'm so glad we're spending billions upon billions of dollars to bring freedom to the Middle East. Did I say that with a straight enough face?

[SAG0282]

*shakes head*


So, like other countries with severely restricted civilian gun ownership, only the thugs, criminals, and less-than-secular authorities will be well-armed.

May'be the liberals were really ACTUALLY on to something...may'be we in fact had no business meddling in that nation's business.

[LAR-15]

Tell me again what they expect the compliance rate to be??

[LAR-15]

You also realize whoever gains power will issue permits to their cronies/supporters and deny their enemies/opposition gun permits, to disarm them??

[Marko Kloos]

The first thing we learned in NCO school was the maxim, "Never issue an order if you have to assume that it will not be followed." Nothing is more damaging to your authority.

Apparently, that lesson has not made it to the brainiacs who came up with that article.

[SodiumBenzoate]

Article 17. It shall not be permitted to possess, bear, buy, or sell arms except on licensure issued in accordance with the law.


:scrutiny:

[AZRickD]

It surely gives an insight into the views of the elites who wrote it. There's a lot of American-like phrases but something is missing. Wonder what?

Go to the FOX website and read the document. It reads like a UN-style "Bill of Rights."

That is, rights do not come from God, but from the good will of the State. That means that one's rights are teetering on the will of a legislative vote. Bad.

General MacArthur practically wrote the entire Japanese Constitution. How's the RKBA in the Land of the Rising Sun? :(

[Marko Kloos]

That is, rights do not come from God, but from the good will of the State. That means that one's rights are teetering on the will of a legislative vote. Bad.

To-may-to, to-mah-to. Remember that in the 1700s and a good part of the 1800s, the vast majority of white Americans firmly believed that God hadn't yet gotten around to granting self-ownership rights to blacks.

Unless you advance the idea that human right are inherent to everyone at birth by virtue of being born a sentient and self-aware human, there's always a way for a majority to deny those rights to a minority...whether they claim to handle those permissions on God's or the State's behalf is irrelevant in the end.

[Brett Bellmore]

There are a few other things missing, too. Such as no mention of trial by jury. The question in my mind is, to what extent are the deficiencies of this constitution there in spite of our best efforts, and to what extent are they there at our urging? I'd really like to know that.

[AZRickD]

Unless you advance the idea that human right are inherent to everyone at birth by virtue of being born a sentient and self-aware human,

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Rights from God, not government...

"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it,"

Government's prime directive is to protect rights.

Rick

[greyhound]

The US government doesn't want US owning guns

Exactly. No surprise at all. Sounds like what the US Constitution would say if it were written today.

On the other hand,

Tell me again what they expect the compliance rate to be??

Like someone said on the closed thread, Iraq is like an armed camp. Should be interesting.

And pretty relevant for us - we're liable to still have lots of troops over there for a long time.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

That was some interesting reading. It makes me glad to live under the US Constitution.

As far as weapons ownership goes, I'm really quite surprised. You would think, after having suffered under Saddam, that the Iraqi people would want to protect themselves from their government.

Other interesting parts include:

Article 14
The individual has the right to security, education, health care, and social security. The Iraqi State and its governmental units, including the federal government, the regions, governorates, municipalities, and local administrations, within the limits of their resources and with due regard to other vital needs, shall strive to provide prosperity and employment opportunities to the people. Whoa...


Article 15. (A) No civil law shall have retroactive effect unless the law so stipulates...
Article 16. (B) The right to private property shall be protected, and no one may be prevented from disposing of his property except within the limits of law...
There are a number of entries that read (more or less): "You have the right to XYZ, unless the government decides you don't." I would be rather disturbed if my own constitution read that way...



Article 15. (B) Police, investigators, or other governmental authorities may not violate the sanctity of private residences, whether these authorities belong to the federal or regional governments, governorates, municipalities, or local administrations, unless a judge or investigating magistrate has issued a search warrant in accordance with applicable law on the basis of information provided by a sworn individual who knew that bearing false witness would render him liable to punishment. Extreme exigent circumstances, as determined by a court of competent jurisdiction, may justify a warrantless search, but such exigencies shall be narrowly construed. In the event that a warrantless search is carried out in the absence of an extreme exigent circumstance, the evidence so seized, and any other evidence found derivatively from such search, shall be inadmissible in connection with a criminal charge, unless the court determines that the person who carried out the warrantless search believed reasonably and in good faith that the search was in accordance with the law. Article 22. If, in the course of his work, an official of any government office, whether in the federal government, the regional governments, the governorate and municipal administrations, or the local administrations, deprives an individual or a group of the rights guaranteed by this Law or any other Iraqi laws in force, this individual or group shall have the right to maintain a cause of action against that employee to seek compensation for the damages caused by such deprivation, to vindicate his rights, and to seek any other legal measure. If the court decides that the official had acted with a sufficient degree of good faith and in the belief that his actions were consistent with the law, then he is not required to pay compensation. So lemme get this straight. If a government official is too stupid to know what he's doing is wrong, then it's okay? Incompetance on the part of government officials is sufficient reason to deny a citizen his rights? Hmm... :scrutiny:


Article 16. (A) Public property is sacrosanct, and its protection is the duty of every citizen. Iraqi skateboarders beware! :neener:

[Treylis]

I can only shake my head in disgust at reading that.

God forbid they just adopt the American Constitution. For all its flaws, it's better than this trash.

[Parker Dean]

God forbid they just adopt the American Constitution.


No politician would ever propose, or accept, anything like the U.S. Constitution. That should tell us a thing or two about politicians.

[The_Antibubba]

Thank Allah for the new gun ban! Now all those Jihading hotheads will turn in their AKs, and everyone will be safe! :rolleyes:

Maybe we can send Feinstein or Kennedy to oversee the disarming :D :evil:

[WonderNine]

Nope...

The text of the actual document, as reported by FOX News :

Article 17. It shall not be permitted to possess, bear, buy, or sell arms except on licensure issued in accordance with the law.

*sigh*


Really makes you want to run off, join the military and "liberate" some more countries.....doesn't it???? :rolleyes:

[WonderNine]

bump

[iapetus]

Even if there was no such thing as a Right to Keep and Bear Arms,

CHAPTER TWO – FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS

...

Article 17.

It shall not be permitted to...

What in the name of logic is an "It shall not be permitted to" doing in a list of "Fundamental Rights"??!?? :what: :confused: :barf: :banghead: :cuss:

(Unless in the context of "None of these can be used to deny anyone tier own rights).

[voilsb]

Is there a list of the authors of the document?

[Nightfall]

Half that constitution is basically "the people of Iraq have the right to do this and that, unless the gov't says otherwise". :rolleyes:
The individual has the right to security, education, health care, and social security.
Social security and health care are rights now? :scrutiny: I'm so glad our Constitution was written hundreds of years ago...

[WonderNine]

The individual has the right to security, education, health care, and social security.

Reads like the Soviet Constitution! Rights galore! I'll bet Ted Kennedy loves it!

[Malone LaVeigh]

First they said it was about 9/11, but no one could find any connection between Iraq and Al Queda.

Then they said it was about WMD, but there weren't any WMD.

Finally, they just said, "Don't worry about that other stuff, the Iraqis are FREE!"

:mad: