Hi indian made guns (again) and gunsmithing


PDA






Bobsen
January 24, 2013, 07:33 AM
Hi All
My Name is as you can guess Bob, and I love all things to do with black powder which is a bit of a problem here in UK as the gun laws are draconian to say the least.
I've seen on the forum a lot of talk about Indian made muskets, so I thought I would put my penny worth in for those interested.
I travel quit a bit and have seen for myself some of the Indian makers which is an eye opener to say the least. If theses guys had half the equipment sitting in my shop they would be able to make the finest guns, "you bet"
I was interested in what steel they used in the barrels and have come to the conclusion it is second-hand hydraulic lines made from cold drawn steel tubing from the many ships being broken up in Bangladesh?? often described by them as (old oil cans).
They cut this to length and forge it by swaging it to swell the breach end and muzzle if needed. They drive a mandrill into the bore to approximate the bore size then with a simple reamer on a long stem fitted to a electric drill ream the bore.
Primitive yes but given the skill they get the result, the wood used is teak in the most part and pot luck to how good it might be, to see a guy checker this wood with a sharpened old broken file in a few minutes is all most beyond belief.
Locks and other parts are hand forged and filed to size, no two parts are identical and all are fitted by hand to one gun.
Anyone interested in these guns and with the right skill level, could take over were they leave off and finish the parts to a much higher level and produce a good looking weapon.
now the interesting bit I was offered as many as I wanted for $250 each from a one off or a hundred, posted to UK/USA $50 each.
I watched as the guy loaded a gun (he asked me to pick any gun stacked against a wall which with a hand drill he drilled the vent hole there and then) with a handful of black powder and two lead balls walked out side and holding it to his shoulder let her go!!! big bang lot of grinning faces and all looked ok ( have to say I kept well out of the way)
to say the least I was impressed.
So much so that I paid for a baker rifle there and then this was just before Christmas and the gun will be posted this week
It is my intention to send the barrel to Birmingham proof house to get it tested and refinish the gun completely, file and finish the brass work to military bright, brown the barrel with artificial twist finish, case harden the standing breach, case harden the tumbler and sear, polish the springs, and internal lock plate, rifle the barrel with seven groves 1/4 turn in 30 inches and re-stain the wood and oil finish.
mark the gun with all original marks to wood and metal (the only thing it will have other than the original marks will be the modern proof marks)
Sure looking forward to this project but would like to hear some advice on tuning the flint lock as this is not something I've done before so any help would be appreciated?
Many thanks and may you all have many years enjoying you hobby
Bob
Bobsen is online now Report Post

If you enjoyed reading about "Hi indian made guns (again) and gunsmithing" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Dave Markowitz
January 24, 2013, 09:25 AM
Welcome to THR.

I'm looking forward to a report one you get your gun, and hopefully some pictures.

robert garner
January 24, 2013, 09:43 AM
Mad dogs and Englishmen, keeps the world interesting.
You've set yourself a long and hopefully rewarding task.
I wish you well,pictures for this type of thread are de rigueur.
I would save you some time,but hardly any expense and offer
you a .54 cal. American Long Rifle(semi custom) and all you'd
have to do to it would be a good cleaning after use, for the low
low cost of shanghaiing one Piers Morgan, giving him a tee shirt
"I went to Mexico, and all I got was this T-shirt" (or equivalent)
and leaving him shoeless on a moor,in a bog or other suitably
remote venue,sound sporting? lets negotiate.
robert

Bobsen
January 24, 2013, 11:59 AM
Thanks
Can't promise anything but If Morgan comes calling Ill keep your suggestions in mind.
Not sure how to upload pics yet but will sort out when gun arrives.
And I thought Yanks were mad but your right its mad dogs and Englishman for sure.
Keep looking
Bob

Bobsen
January 24, 2013, 12:08 PM
This is a photo of the baker rifle from the Indian company as ready to post so at least you get an idea of it
I hope this works?

Cosmoline
January 24, 2013, 01:54 PM
There are many posts on the India-made guns. Interestingly they may be far closer to the originals than anything out of the US or Italy. That's not always a good thing, but given the primitive tech and the reliance on hand-fitting, the production process is almost pre-industrial and would be very close to how it was done in the 18th century.

It is possible to blow them up, but it's also possible to blow up Pedersoli guns that cost five times more. I think it comes down to the intended use.

Bobsen
January 24, 2013, 05:12 PM
From what I saw the only thing they have in common is hand made look at a government contract Brown Bess lock from 1790 and you would be forgiven for thinking it had been made on some sort of machine.
If you look at the photo I've had this built as a commission and paid a lot more for the pleasure.
But my goal is to create a gun very similar to the contract gun of the 18th century
As far as I'm concerned this is a set of inexpensive parts compared to custom made parts or guns that will require many hrs of work to bring them up to par and satisfy my requirements.
I wish to prove that better quality Indian made guns are not that bad if your careful about your choice.
From what has been said although I was not intending to do so I,will post photos and build stages on this thread from time to time to show how its going
All comments and helpful advice especially on working on the lock are welcome
May your flint always spark and your shot hit the spot.
Thanks for the encouragement and keep it coming
Bob

Steel Horse Rider
January 24, 2013, 09:29 PM
If the barrel was made from steel tubing used for high pressure hydraulic lines as you surmised it is probably a lot better quality than the originals and maybe even the modern copies. As someone who was trained as a Tool and Die Maker I am always impressed at the ingenuity of emerging cultures. Reminds me of how this country got its start.....

Bobsen
January 25, 2013, 07:17 AM
There is a video of the Indian factory making guns if I can find the link I will post it here

Bobsen
January 25, 2013, 07:21 AM
http://www.narayansports.com/
go to the site and then click on face book and look at the videos
well worth a look and very similar to the place I visited

volleyfire
January 25, 2013, 10:59 AM
As if I don't have enough ways to spend my meager allowance. I have always been lusting after a Baker Rifle thanks to my 'Sharpe's' addiction. Really looking forward to your updates. BTW Bobsen I'm a former student of Hinchingbrooke House.

hawkeye74
January 25, 2013, 12:40 PM
These guns have been discussed before. I will repeat what I have said before:

"BUYER BEWARE

THEY ARE DANGEROUS. THEY BLOW UP. THEY HAVE HURT PEOPLE. THEY ARE NOT IMPORTED TO BE SHOT BUT ARE DECORATIONS.

WARN OTHERS THAT YOU ARE SHOOTING A DECORATION SO THEY CAN MOVE AWAY!

Cosmoline
January 25, 2013, 01:04 PM
Oh let's not start all this again. There are about 25 threads on the topic. We can trade pictures of blown up Pedersolis and blown up India guns all day long. The fact is even a fancy government proof is not a magical ward against kabooms if you do something stupid. The India guns are affordable for most folk, the Italian ones are not. The US made custom ones are even more expensive.

hawkeye74
January 25, 2013, 02:17 PM
Right now, gun rights are being attacked due to the fact that mentally ill individuals committed horrible crimes with firearms.

Lawful users of firearms know the problem is not the gun but a mental health issue.

You people that persist in using unsafe decorations as firearms will bring the wrong type of attention to the antique weapons we cherish. This will bring unwanted regulation, taxes, etc. Leave these things on the wall where they were meant to be used.

Cost is not an excuse to put you, your friends and others at risk. Cheap safe firearms can be found if you look. I have bought dozens of USED Italian made firearms for under $400. Then re-sold them to newbies.

Yes the firearms made to shoot will blow up if improperly loaded or not properly maintained. We are all burdened with living with fools. Do you really want to prove yourself to be one of the fools?

Bobsen
January 25, 2013, 02:47 PM
You know I always envied yanks free country carry guns etc
But having read most of what is said about Indian guns. It's always good old USA the spouts the most crap.
If anŷone can show me the guy who suffered a blow out with a well maintained ,clean,Single loaded,proofed Indian musket I will take it all back put my baker in the metal chomper (when it arrives) and join a monastery for the rest of my life.
I never heard so much crap from know it alls in my life, if it is proofed by a licenced proof house ( Oh sorry USA don't have one) then it's as safe as any gun ever made and after all there's plenty of well made expensive shotguns burst over the years and some were made in London by the best makers.
So pull your head out of your butt and make sensible remarks about responsible gun use where ever it's made :banghead:
Keep up the intelligence I love it
Bob

Bobsen
January 25, 2013, 02:53 PM
Hi vollyfire
Good to hear from you I will send updates as and when but to dam cold to go outside at the mo hoping by the time the gun arrives here in UK it will be a bit warmer how long ago were you in school here?
Are you in the UK now
Bob

hawkeye74
January 25, 2013, 05:00 PM
Bobsen:

You have an advantage we don't with your national proof house. If your Baker passes a British proof house test great!! :D You don't have to do penance in a monastary.:)

The Indian made pieces in the USA are shipped here as decorations.

I don't give a damn about where a gun is made. My college room mate for 2 years was Indian from India. What I don't want is to be on a firing line and have a pipe bomb go off near me.

I would love to buy less expensive GUNS from India. But I don't want them to be decorations, I want a functioning, safe gun.

The link you posted to narayansports.com is a company (I am told) that will ship their guns direct to the USA as a gun. I will check them out further and might buy from them

Bobsen
January 25, 2013, 05:34 PM
I will keep everyone informed as we go, even if you don't have a proof house
You can remove the barrel put twice the recommended charge and two lead balls well seated put it on the ground in an old tyre pointing down range or in an old quarry somewhere safe and with a bit of fuse let it go bang bounce around bit and then check it out if all is sound and not bent or blown it should be fine
I would not wish anyone to own a pipe bomb if this is a bit worrying
You could buy the gun from India less the barrel and get new barrel from track the Wolf for 175 bucks it will just drop in wa-la all done and safe
Nice cheap baker
Keep it coming don't yer just love it
God I'm jealous of you guys land of the free and nutty as hell
Bob

robert garner
January 25, 2013, 05:47 PM
Bobsen;
Get you a ticket to Mex City,head North,if ya tell'em at the border you want to be a Democrat,Bob's your Uncle, you're in.
robert

Cosmoline
January 25, 2013, 05:59 PM
I have bought dozens of Italian made firearms for under $400.

Show me the Italian proofed flintlock musket or rifle on the market for under $400. I got a bargain on one for $750 the other day. Standard list price was nearly a grand and it's just an Armi not a Pedersoli. You can find cap and ball revolvers for pretty cheap still, but not Italian flintlocks. And there are many models no Italian firm even makes. Yes they need to be de-farbed but so do the Italians. The US made custom pieces and kits are astronomically expensive these days, so there's not much help there.

So long as the piece is checked over well and the loads kept sane with black powder only, there should be no problem. The same goes for all of them.

hawkeye74
January 25, 2013, 07:01 PM
Pardon me for omitting the word "Used."

Cosmoline
January 25, 2013, 08:38 PM
Or used for that matter. Maybe you haven't noticed what the spike in the Euro did to Italian replica prices in the last decade. Please find me some Italian proofed flintlock replicas for under $400 on gunbroker. Let alone a Baker replica. Even a Middlesex India made runs over $500
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=323925773

philuk44
January 26, 2013, 06:12 AM
Hi Bob

Good to see another crazy Brit on here :)
Looks like an interesting project you've got going - I'll be interested to see how it turns out.

Good shooting!

Phil

Bobsen
January 26, 2013, 07:28 AM
Phill
Yep mads right, but not as mad as our cousins over the pond love em.
Ill keep putting it on here, stirring it as much as I can
Im Cambridgeshire?? Anywhere near yourself?
As you say good shooting
Bob

philuk44
January 26, 2013, 07:44 AM
Hi Bob

Bit further north than you - near Newcastle.
Don't shoot a lot of black powder - got a Ruger Old Army and a Uberti Rogers & Spencer - but it's always fun!

I'm an ex pistol shooter and shoot mainly Gallery Rifle and historic these days. Get to quite a few competitions and get down to Bisley a few times each year. Maybe see you on the ranges one day ;)

Phil

Bobsen
January 27, 2013, 05:05 AM
Hi all
Years ago in my youth, I saw a plain steel barrel that had been given a twist pattern.
The guy who showed it to me said he had done it by binding the barrel with very hairy string with a slant and then rusted the barrel with a solution of copper sulphate and ferric chloride sprayed on with a misting spray.

Well I've never forgotten that and now have a reason to try it.

I got me a length of steel tubing and polished it to experiment on
I wound on the string and made up the solution sprayed the metal and put it in a home made rusting chamber for a few days.
When I cleaned it there was very faint pattern but not the result I was expecting.

Has anyone ever tried the above with a result or does anyone have a way of simulating a twist pattern on plain barrels?

Also looking for some ideas on lock tuning?
Thanks for the time and trouble Bob

Loyalist Dave
January 27, 2013, 11:37 AM
There is a video of the Indian factory making guns if I can find the link I will post it here

Except it is not "the Indian factory"..., not all of the components come from a single source. I have seen this assumption before.

The Indian made pieces in the USA are shipped here as decorations.

I have seen this assertion before as well. The Indian muskets that I own were bought as parts, shipped to the country where they were finished, and then sold ready to shoot. None were marked "decorations" when shipped to Canada, nor when shipped to me.

What I don't want is to be on a firing line and have a pipe bomb go off near me.
Of course not, nobody does, but you may not understand exactly where the risk occurs base on this wording.

You don't know about an American made barrel any more than the Indian barrel, and some barrels made in America are from hydrolic tubing. While the tubing may be grand from either country, the breeching of the barrel, even when done in America with American parts, may be wrong. I have seen such improper breeching in American made barrels ordered from a respected supply house. And if somebody DIY's breeching the barrel from all American made parts, what guarantee have you against that?

You are also assuming that that the shooter is a flawless loader, regardless of the origin of the rifle or musket barrel. CVA has an abysmal record of blowing barrels compared to the Indian made muskets barrels. So do other inline guns, based on actual blown barrels. Even with a proofed Pedersoli barrel, you assume every time that the musket or rifle is fired, the owner has used black powder, not overloaded the charge, and has properly seated the bullet. Here's a "pipe bomb" on a range (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtY1bT4Hh2g) for you. (Not an Indian musket, and the dudes to his right are unaware and assume he is doing it "right").

..., that will ship their guns direct to the USA as a gun. I will check them out further and might buy from them.
Why would this suddenly change your viewpoint? It's their "word" that it's safe to fire, just as it's the word from the muskets I get from Canada or the barrels that I get from Track of The Wolf. No testing has been done.

Finally there is the Proofing Myth. Yes MYTH. MYTH MYTH MYTH!!! :banghead:

You see the proofing of a barrel tells you that the barrel passed proof at the proof house and was that way when it left. Proofing in no way, shape, nor form, gives you an indication of what condition the barrel is in today. This is why folks who have previously proofed barrels in valuable guns, send them back for reproofing before firing them. The previous owner or owners may not have kept good care of the barrels, and although you might detect massive pitting in a muzzleloader with a digital inspection camera (http://www.harborfreight.com/digital-inspection-camera-67979.html), you won't necessarily find cracks. Besides, have you ever seen the barrels of black powder guns at a range or match internally inspected with such a camera? I have been shooting muzzleloaders for more than three decades, and have never seen such an inspection. I've never heard of such an inspection. And YES I have found Italian proofed, modern muzzleloading barrels that were so roached on the interior, although they looked fine on the exterior, to be unsafe to fire due to deep pitting.

Based on the actual factual records of barrel failures, you are far more at risk from an American shooter improperly loading an inline, than from a properly loaded musket barrel made in India.

LD

Bobsen
January 27, 2013, 02:14 PM
Hi Dave
I agree with all the points made with the exception on the first one ref Indian factories.
That's only because I've been there and seen it for myself can't speak for the video but the methods and environment were much the same, from what I witnessed the place I went made nearly everything.
I was very interested in the barrels and the breach from what I saw and was told?
The barrels were made from reclaimed drawn tubing I ask were it cam from and he said old oil cans from the pump for hydraulic fluid.
From this and further questioning it became apparent old oil can was the term in English for an oil tanker being broken up in Bangladesh.
The pump for hydraulic fluid meant the pipe work used to run hydraulic lines on the ship thus the source for the barrels.
Breaching was done using a course thread and the breach plug was screwed in full tight before marking and then forging the tang which to me seemed the best way of ensuring the thread was fully engaged.
All other parts were forged by hand then hand filed i.e. lock plate, cocks, pans etc.
I have to say I did not see the spring making or frizzed hardening as these parts were laying about on the bench.
Each lock was filed and fitted by two or three guys working together.
In the next room there were two guys working on the stocks each equipped with a limited number of hand tools worked at the stock from roughing out to finished ready to sand stain and finish
I was told the guns metalwork went away to be polished before stain and polish to wood work and final assembly.
I spent about half a day with them and can only say as I did right at the beginning if these guys had better tools and workshops they would make much better finished guns ther skill levels were exceptional given the working conditions.
I would say they take great care to ensure that they will not blow up when fired they recognise they sell guns as decorators to overcome Indian export laws and the fact that a market exist for there products, after all if every other gun when fired was blown-up they would soon lose the market.

If they were not made to shoot why go to the trouble of making each bit as near to original as possible they could cut so many corners and still make the thing look right if it was never meant to be fired.
Also proofing might not be the absolute test but its better than no test at all and it's been used for hundreds of years to protect the user and those close to him.
Always good to hear good discussions.
Keep it up and keep it coming all the best Bob

Pancho
January 27, 2013, 11:52 PM
Bob, did you say that the stock was made from Teak? I wouldn't be surprised seeing that they don't have much curly maple in India. In any case the wood looks great.

Bobsen
January 28, 2013, 03:08 AM
Hi
Yes it was teak but what a variation blanks were so different from high figure
to very plain,from red to white and everything in between but from what I was all but a few looked ok once finished.
How do you know if the guy sucking on the pipe is foolish or clever????
Cheers Bob

Olmontanaboy
January 28, 2013, 11:42 AM
God I'm jealous of you guys land of the free and nutty as hell Bob

Hello Bob from England, what do you mean by the Nutty as hell remark?
Would that apply to the Nutty as hell Americans that saved your country in WWll?


http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e367/filekeeper/british_ad.gif

Bobsen
January 28, 2013, 01:03 PM
Good ol boy
I guess you are a bit sensitive, only meant in good humour, so done take a fence try the gate instead.
Hope you enjoy the comments around the subject and if you can add any experience please feel free to do so.
Good shooting and have a great time living your a long time dead.
Cheers Bob

bainter1212
January 28, 2013, 01:38 PM
Bob,
Thanks much for sharing your project. Keep us updated. I am especially interested in a range report once you get around to it. Accuracy from this rifle would deepen my already good impression, gained from your description of these esteemed Indian craftsman. I have a question though....how was their attention to detail? Particularly in the final inspection process.
BTW as a "yank" I must say that yes we ARE all nutty as hell, and I couldn't be prouder of it.

Olmontanaboy
January 28, 2013, 03:14 PM
That's fine Bob, but in just a few post you bad mouthed America several times when someone had an opinion other than your own.

But having read most of what is said about Indian guns. It's always good old USA the spouts the most crap.

I never heard so much crap from know it alls in my life, if it is proofed by a licenced proof house ( Oh sorry USA don't have one)

So pull your head out of your butt

As far as the Indian guns, not my cup of tea. I only handled three of them and the word crude is all that comes to mind.

Bobsen
January 28, 2013, 04:25 PM
Hi
Please accept my deepest apologies, if I upset you it was not my intention. Because someone stated "in my opinion" something I felt was said without a true knowledge of the subject makes me point out "in my opinion" their lack of knowledge on the subject
I am as proud as hell of being an English man as you obviously are about being an American, power to your elbow (by the way I would be just as scathing with anyone spouting crap no matter what the nationality)
With ref to the Indian Guns,
I agree they are a bit crude and could do with a bit more finish in the final product.
But I believe they are a good basis for a rebuild and with skill could be a much cheaper alternative to the higher quality guns available.
If you read the factual points I describe within this thread I think you will agree they make interesting reading and food for thought.
What anyone chooses to believe is up to them but I try to balance all I have put with sound logical sense and report the facts as I see them.
As I said at the beginning no offence intended just good fun all round
Kind Rgds Bob

Bobsen
January 28, 2013, 04:43 PM
Hi bainter1212
From what I saw the boss man looked over the finished gun and if he thought it OK it went on the finished pile ready to ship.
I wasn't there long enough to see all the process but the guys who built the locks when finished, put them into a vice fitted a flint and tested for a spark and function. Not sure if this was for my benefit or done every time.
The overall impression I got was that they were building a gun not a decorator
They seem to care were it mattered and were open about shipping without the touch hole drilled only to overcome export laws.
I ask them if they were aware that 90% of there guns would end up being fired
They said they thought it was 100% and laughed.
Hope this helps I will keep everyone updated with the project over the coming months and eventually give a range report once finished which I think will be about a year away due to work commitment.
I'm glade were all mad as this would be a dull place if we all thought we were normal.
Kind Rgds Bob

Olmontanaboy
January 28, 2013, 04:49 PM
Fair enough Bob
Have a good day
Jim

Bobsen
January 28, 2013, 05:07 PM
Thanks Jim
If I'd have really been angry I would have said arse not butt
What's your interest in blackpower shooting after all I'm only jealous because we can't pick up a long rifle and go hunting or down the range when we feel like it
As I said the laws here are draconian and yours have a long long long way to go before they become half as restrictive which will never happen.
I have one question is this the right forum for gun smithing advise? I love the politics and the banter but not much help coming this way with the gun smithing questions?
Have a great day and look forward to crossing swords again
Your new found English mate If you wish?
Cheers Bob

hawkeye74
January 28, 2013, 11:25 PM
Even though I hate Government involvement in anything firearms related, I really wish sometimes the USA had a national proof house for just this type argument.

L.D.

This is getting tiring. As a dealer of these decorations, You try to defend these things that are basically crap by making making your own assumptions about these things and trusting the people that are SELLING THEM to you without any background investigation. I believe in the adage "TRUST BUT VERIFY". Bob has a better perspective as he has actually been there to India to see these things made. He is, I believe, tryng to find a good cheap base to start from to build a suitable safe rifle which he might achieve since Britain has a proof house to test his Baker before putting it on the range where he might endanger other people.

I know proofing is not foolproof but it is a time proven method of testing barrels prior to their use on a firearm. No I can't be sure another individual might think Smokeless powder that is black in color is "Black Powder" so it is "okay" to shoot in a black powder only firearm. No I can't be sure a neighbors gun is not over charged, impoperly cleaned or loaded or any of the many other things that can go wrong. There are no guarantees but I can take a few minimal steps to protect myself and those around me from unnecessary risk.

Proofing a barrel is one of these.

My experience with these Indian made firearms has not been favorable. Most of the ones I have seen were malfunctioning to some degree, and 4 were blown up due to problems in the breech area. The internals and frizens were too soft for more than very light use. Hardening and re-fitting were often required to make the locks function. While the indian pieces might make a blank gun, These pieces I have seen were NOT SUITABLE for even moderate live fire. This is why the N-SSA and I refuse to approve them for our live fire events. I even refuse to work on them any more.

I don't consider myself a gunsmith but I have been shooting for 45+ years and working on guns for 40+ years. This includes doing some Browning, Remington and S&W warranty work, making parts from scratch and refinishing stocks. I have built 2 Muskets from original parts with new wood and barrels. I have also improved many Italian guns to make them shoot better and be more durable. (As a rule I am not a fan of the Italian guns, but that is another topic.) This plus 40 years of shooting and having won a National and state titles make me feel competent to say something is not safe.

These are some things that we agreed on:

1. If an Indian made gun is shipped to the USA, it is either shipped as a "decoration" with the vent hole undriled that must be drilled after it arrives in the USA or;

2. It is shipped unassembled as parts for later assembly once it gets into the USA.

3. We are told This is done to get around Indian Gun laws.

While you accept this, I don't. It appears the gun laws they are avoiding is not India's but the USA. They are avoiding US laws that require imported firearms to be proofed. They are avoiding the law that requires imported firearms to be numbered and the manufacturer AND Importer be identified. They are avoiding the US Consumer protection laws that allow us to sue someone that puts a faulty product on the market after a failure. The USA relies on this to make sure American made barrels are safe, not proof houses. (Major Producers or barrels in the US test the heck out of their barrels and vet their mfg. process before putting barrels on the market.)

It might help to know that India does make firearms that are sold on the import market. Why don't they comply with these laws?

I have checked with the importers of these pieces and they will not identify or provide any information that might calm my fears. They call this "Proprietary information" on their web sites. Check My previous posts. I have gone over this before.


Quote:
The Indian made pieces in the USA are shipped here as decorations.
The Indian manufacterer agent said this: For a while, You could have watched a video on the N-SSA web site where their sales agent said this to the camera.

I have seen this assertion before as well. The Indian muskets that I own were bought as parts, shipped to the country where they were finished,

From the owners of these pieces I have spoken to, they were shipped with the barrels in one box and the rest in another part so they could be called "gun Parts" again dodging the law.


some barrels made in America are from hydrolic tubing.

Please ID the American maker of any GUN with hydraulic tubing for a barrel. I don't know of any.

Why would this suddenly change your viewpoint?

If theyfollow the law, I am more likely to trust them

Based on the actual factual records of barrel failures, you are far more at risk from an American shooter improperly loading an inline, than from a properly loaded musket barrel made in India.

FACT OR YOUR ASSERTION. Show me the numbers or study.

Cosmoline

Go to almost any Re-enactment. You will find used muskets and flintlocks at very reasonable prices. Buy them straight from the individual. If you wait until they are in the hands of a sutler, they will be already adding their profit back into the price. In short pay the individual what a sutler will pay him for a used gun.

Bob:

I think I have seen what you are trying to do with the barrel. Try wrapping the barrel in leather with the twist you wish to achieve then apply your bluing finish, be it black or rust.

Another possibility is that you may have seen a Damascus Steel Barrel that had been browned? The Damascu Method gives the barrel a Twist finish sometimes if it is not polished out.

If they were not made to shoot why go to the trouble of making each bit as near to original as possible they could cut so many corners and still make the thing look right if it was never meant to be fired.

As I understand it, one of the principal markets for these things is Hollywood's movie industry. The days are long gone of using trap doors as muskets in historical films. Hollywood magic makes the noise, flash and smoke. The N-SSA National skirmish has been recorded several times to record soundtracks for several CW movies in the last several years. With real live fire, the movies are much better.

As for your initial premise, are these guns a good cheap source of parts for building a suitable BP Rifle/Musket, My verdict was no. When I finally put tape measures to them, the measurements were too far off. Also, by the time you put the tools, work and time into them, you can buy an Italian gun, harden the parts, bed the barrel and get a good firing gun for the same money without the unknowns and risk. Unless it is for something not available elsewhere, I would stay away from them.

One advantage you have is you went there and eyeballed them. They may put a little extra into your project becausse they don't know if you might actually show back up on their doorstep again. You have the advantage of a Proof House to test your barrel so it might work out for you. Good luck with your project

Olmontanaboy:

Keep Defending the USA. But I don't think Bob has any ill will towards me or the USA. Just a basic Disagreement between gun lovers.


For all:

The main thing is be safe. Guns are dangerous if not handled properly. Since the distributors and importers are so secretive and using every loop hole they can to get these pieces into the USA around our laws, I tend to err on the side of caution and preach against these things.

hawkeye74
January 29, 2013, 09:49 AM
Bob:

Missed the note on lock tuning.

Go to www.n-ssa.net and the bulletin board. There are several articles on the board and links to detailed articles on lock tuning.

I will try to find the link to the article and post the link here,

Bobsen
January 29, 2013, 10:07 AM
I think we all agree safety first not just for yourself but for everyone around you.
Just to make it clear I love all mankind, I think your a lucky bunch in
good-ol-USA for having and preserving your gun laws like you do.

Personally "and I know this is going to cause a lot of comment", I can't see why anyone would need to buy a automatic, self-loading sub machine gun over the counter no questions asked?

Way I see it the game would not be fit to eat after a blast from one of those?? and it would be dam expensive on targets at the range. but as long as its not required to cause harm, I guess each to his own.

Back to the project I am still looking for someone with experience in improving the trigger pull and lock timing on a flintlock to give me some advise.

Other than that good to meet people, just stop to think how we could have done this one hundred years ago!! impossible!!.
Keep you power dry.

Rgds Bob

Bobsen
January 29, 2013, 10:10 AM
We must have been on line at the same time thanks for the link
Bob

Olmontanaboy
January 29, 2013, 10:36 AM
Personally "and I know this is going to cause a lot of comment", I can't see why anyone would need to buy a automatic, self-loading sub machine gun over the counter no questions asked?

Way I see it the game would not be fit to eat after a blast from one of those?? and it would be dam expensive on targets at the range. but as long as its not required to cause harm, I guess each to his own.

Well Bob, first off. Over here in the land of "nutty as hell" (your words) you can't buy self-loading sub machine guns over the counter no questions ask period. It's against the law and has been since the 30's. Some states allow purchase of machine guns only after a class 3 permit is applied for and granted after going through all the background checks and meeting the requirements.

The firearms that the news media is all flustered about are semi-automatic look-alikes.

Just to make it clear I love all mankind, I think your a lucky bunch in
good-ol-USA for having and preserving your gun laws like you do.

There you go again, in one sentence you praise us for preserving our gun laws, and in the next you say you can't understand it.
The Second amendment is not about duck hunting.
It's what keeps us citizens from becoming subjects. You know :-)

You might read this again. It's an actual ad from a the American Rifleman magazine published in WWll.
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e367/filekeeper/zsxdezzz.jpg

hawkeye74
January 29, 2013, 11:33 AM
Bob

For BP shooters, This is a very handy link

www.nwtskirmisher.com

Go to Useful information. Lots of good information

Bobsen
January 29, 2013, 02:33 PM
I guess it shows just how much we know about each others culture we speak a similar language but might as well be German sometimes.
Point taken, now bugger off and let me get on with sorting this gun I'm fed up with splitting hairs over this.
I hope you have a good life and may all your dreams come true but your like a bad hound dog I offer you a hand of friendship and you bite it
Good to have spoken with you
Bob

Olmontanaboy
January 29, 2013, 07:48 PM
Hey Bob, I'll leave when I'm dam ready. You make inflamitory statements and lash out when someone disagrees with them, your full of crap and can stick your bitten hand up your backside. Oh yeah, if it weren't for us, you ungreatful clown, you WOULD be speaking German.

Bobsen
January 30, 2013, 09:05 AM
Hi All

Hope you having a nice day, including olmontanaboy :cuss:

I wondered if any one has any experience of working with teak wood including refinishing.
I will want to make it look more like walnut? I have some knowledge of refinishing shotgun stocks which might stand me in good stead.

Thanks once again for any help given

Keep your powder dry and your dog out of the water, or is it keep you dog dry and your powder out of the water!!!

All the best Bob

bainter1212
January 30, 2013, 09:15 AM
Hey Bob,
You might think of starting another couple of threads asking very specific questions about things you want advice on......at this point nobody is willing to stick around and read all the posts from thick-headed people, dogging you because they have no sense of humor. I have some experience refinishing stocks, however I wouldn't know where to even begin with teak. However there is a sticky, I believe on this board, that shows a great method for refinishing gunstocks.

Bobsen
January 30, 2013, 09:47 AM
Thanks for the advice I will do just that I guess you just stop using this thread
Sorry I'm not that familiar with forums as this is the first I have joined successfully
But great fun all the same
As I said before many thanks
Bob

Charleville.69
July 14, 2013, 01:52 PM
Hi, a new member, not wanting to best a dead horse, but as I understand it, only one has failed and it was due to improper cleaning.

hawkeye74
July 14, 2013, 11:21 PM
:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:


NO!! several have failed. I have personally seen four:what::what:, and pictures of six others that have failed. Buyer beware!!!!!!!!!!!

moharrow
July 16, 2013, 12:06 AM
to date in the proofing experiment I have been running the results are as follows

we have tested the following barrels using the old English standard of a triple charge double ball load

the barrels are measured at room temperature with a micrometer at 3" intervals starting at the breech face.

we have tested various barrels from a number of makers and national origins
with only 2 failures out of almost 200 barrels

neither of the barrels that failed was Indian

one was an unmarked straight octagon barrel that blew out it's breech plug

the other one was an Armisport Enfield barrel that split just ahead of the breech. in fairness both of the failures were on used barrels that had been volunteered for this test and they were both pretty badly neglected

In the case of both failures, neglect and corrosion appear to be the major cause of the failures

If anyone has a barrel that has failed in normal use. I would love to get any information on when and where it failed and if the barrel was tested afterward to find out why it failed. also if ylu have a barrel that has failed . and is willing to have it tested I will pay for the testing and shipping both ways

Loyalist Dave
July 16, 2013, 10:44 AM
Is that really a valid test for the Armi Sport barrel? If it's Italian, then it was proofed and stamped in Italy to the Italian, black powder, muzzleloading barrel standard, and as you previously posted, it's far less pressure than the English standard?

It does validate the point, however, that although a barrel passed proof at the proof house, due to neglect, it might not be safe now.

Even though I hate Government involvement in anything firearms related, I really wish sometimes the USA had a national proof house for just this type argument.

L.D.

This is getting tiring. As a dealer of these decorations, You try to defend these things that are basically crap by making making your own assumptions about these things and trusting the people that are SELLING THEM to you without any background investigation.

I don't know why Hawkeye74 keeps libeling me as a "dealer" of Indian muskets even though I have told him in the past that I have never claimed to be a dealer, nor sold them. YES IT IS TIRING.

LD

HasoBoxhead
July 16, 2013, 06:44 PM
Ah, the classic urban legends about how terrible the Indian guns are and how totally reliable the Italian ones are...love it. Take a read of this:

http://www.middlesexvillagetrading.com/muzzleloader_technical_info/educational_articles/musket_history_articles/Indian_muskets_and_safety.shtml

Pay particular attention to the link on the "autopsy" of the weapon that failed in the infamous 2007 incident..which was not a mechanical failure or unsafe workmanship issue, but rather human error...also look at the actual mechanical failures noted with the Italian pieces...

Now, with the "safety" issue at least given another voice and some actual empirical data, we can move onto historical accuracy, which the Italian ones are, quite simply, horrible. Read any authoritative study on weapons of the American revolution and you'll see just how "off" the Italian muskets are...and, oddly enough, how much closer to reality the Indian ones actually are.

Stop the hate, stop the urban legends. I've had my own musket tested by our armorer and outsourced to a professional one, with absolutely no issues detected. The bottom line is do the research and stop passing along urban legends. If you've "seen" multiple failures, post the pics and the details of the post-incident investigation, otherwise your putting out legends.

Take the time to take care of your weapon and ensure you are operating it safely. Don't think simply paying twice as much for a musket is going to get you one that is absolutely safe, nor is it going to get you any closer to historical accuracy, but rather farther away. DO THE RESEARCH.

Sorry, soapbox is now free...

If you enjoyed reading about "Hi indian made guns (again) and gunsmithing" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!