We now have a gun registry...sort of


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CLP
January 25, 2013, 12:24 AM
So I was browsing another thread and someone mentioned something about computerized medical records. There are "meaningful use" criteria for these EMR's (electronic medical records) programs which allow you to take large numbers of records and extract specific data for research purposes (e.g. to study average weights of adolescents in poor neighborhoods vs. better off neighborhoods...

So the EO's (or memos, or whatever they were) that Obama enacted essentially encouraging physicians to more often ask about firearm ownership will help populate this data point in EMR programs. Now, as far as accessing that date there would naturally be HIPPA reg's and what not that should, hypothetically, protect the privacy of individuals. But how often have we heard in the news stories of medical records being thrown in dumpsters or laptops with medical records being stolen.

Basically, with a few keystrokes, an authorized person could filter all medical records of patients that own firearms (provided they told their doctor they owned them). I'm not trying to fan any flames here, but it does seem to me that this is more or less a form of a gun registry.

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Texan Scott
January 25, 2013, 01:44 AM
Obama's EO told doctors they could ASK. To the general public, this makes it appear that he's doing something significant. In reality, although the doctor can ask, the AHCA/ Obamacare law still makes it illegal for the government to keep records or compile gun ownership information from medical records.

InkEd
January 25, 2013, 01:51 AM
The solution is to simply answer "No."

FROGO207
January 25, 2013, 05:53 AM
My reply is a question as follows:

Why do you ask, do you own one??

Depending on the answer I will answer a simple no, or start to discuss firearms with a like minded person if they encourage a conversation.:D

These things are simple to deal with folks.:banghead:

Boostedtwo
January 25, 2013, 06:32 AM
If I was asked by my doctor he would get the " it's none of your business. " whether you own a gun or not isn't their business.

Carl N. Brown
January 25, 2013, 07:00 AM
Doctors may ask questions about guns in the home. Not shall ask questions and must report to government.

That does not lessen my concerns about doctors and gun control. Read anything by David Hemenway.

Doctors have published arguments that gun violence is a disease and guns are the virus. Somerville "Gun Control as Immunization," American Medical News, Jan. 3, 1994. Public health activist Katherine Christoffel, M.D: "Guns are a virus that must be eradicated.... Get rid of the guns, get rid of the bullets, and you get rid of the deaths." in Janice Somerville, "Gun Control as Immunization," American Medical News, January 3, 1994, p. 9

When one of the particpants in the National Geographic Doomsday Preppers told his doctor his heart attack hurt so bad he felt like killing himself, the doctor was obligated by law to report suicidial ideation to the state, and the state was obligated by lw to step in and take his guns.

There are "meaningful use" criteria for these EMR's (electronic medical records) programs which allow you to take large numbers of records and extract specific data for research purposes (e.g. to study average weights of adolescents in poor neighborhoods vs. better off neighborhoods...

Does the access to statistical data allow pin pointing individuals by name and address?

CLP
January 25, 2013, 09:16 AM
Doctors may ask questions about guns in the home. Not shall ask questions and must report to government.

That does not lessen my concerns about doctors and gun control. Read anything by David Hemenway.

Doctors have published arguments that gun violence is a disease and guns are the virus. Somerville "Gun Control as Immunization," American Medical News, Jan. 3, 1994. Public health activist Katherine Christoffel, M.D: "Guns are a virus that must be eradicated.... Get rid of the guns, get rid of the bullets, and you get rid of the deaths." in Janice Somerville, "Gun Control as Immunization," American Medical News, January 3, 1994, p. 9

When one of the particpants in the National Geographic Doomsday Preppers told his doctor his heart attack hurt so bad he felt like killing himself, the doctor was obligated by law to report suicidial ideation to the state, and the state was obligated by lw to step in and take his guns.



Does the access to statistical data allow pin pointing individuals by name and address?
Yes- you are able to open any particular chart. The concept is pretty good overall. Want to see how people's blood pressure responds to one med vs. another? You can filter out all records except those being treated for blood pressure by the two meds you're interested in studying. That's a good idea.
It's all about how searchable the data is. If all of the information is typed into free-text boxes, then you can't do any kind of data retrieval- at least not easily.

As programmers get feedback from EMR users, a check box specifically for gun ownership could easily be created (some EMRs may already have this). And when there's a box that requires an answer, people ask those questions without thinking. Do you own firearms? "Yes", "No", "Patient refused to answer". Still searchable.

At the VA we use CPRS. It seems to be a hybrid. All the objective data is searchable. The subjective data is in free text boxes. This is the part of the chart where I currently document firearm ownership (an oft asked question in mental health). I just don't see how digital intake forms won't ultimately include questions about firearm ownership. And if you decide not to reveal that info, then you'll have "Patient refused to answer" by the question which, as another searchable data point, is an automatic "yes" in many people's minds. You'd essentially need to lie and say "No" to protect your privacy.

Again, these would be private medical records and they should remain private. But I'll bet anyone that it's only a matter of time before a major breech of privacy occurs with these systems.

Nico Testosteros
January 25, 2013, 09:42 AM
My cars are registered with the government, my marriage is registered with the government, my house is registered with the government, my birth is registered with the government and my death will be.

mcdonl
January 25, 2013, 09:54 AM
There are 15 MU measures, and measure #13 has a number of quality initiatives. None of them have anything to do with firearms.

These are the only measures that would apply. AND... Not every medical office will be MU compliant either.

Gordon_Freeman
January 25, 2013, 10:14 AM
My wife answered "yes." :banghead::cuss::mad:

BrotherFrankie
January 25, 2013, 10:24 AM
i dont answer.. though when he lifts up my shirt to check the surgery site or listen to my breathing he often see's my 357 or 9mm at 4:30..

my GP is OK with it.. my neuro surg has rapid breathing and pupil dialtion.. never mentions it tho..

im a pastor and its unexpected.

Ryanxia
January 25, 2013, 10:33 AM
First off, it had been awhile since I was last at my doctor's and just recently I had to update my paperwork. There was an option to allow or deny your records being put into the online system. I checked NO.

Secondly, whenever your doctor asks if you have guns just say 'that's not your business'.

FuriousGeorge
January 25, 2013, 10:39 AM
I'll tell them the truth and say, "yes, my kids play with Nerf guns. Do they count?".

MedWheeler
January 25, 2013, 10:46 AM
The .gov already knows I own firearms; they've processed I-don't-know-how-many NICS checks on me over the years. I'm not worried about them finding out from my physician.
That being said, if asked, I'd still likely refrain from answering. I wouldn't get snappy, or answer with a question, though. I's simply instruct him to check "declined to answer."

Strange Bob
January 25, 2013, 10:57 AM
The solution is to simply answer "No."
The correct response here!

Tob
January 25, 2013, 01:18 PM
I haven't been asked yet, but if I am the answer will be either "no" or "It's none of your business."

USAF_Vet
January 25, 2013, 01:24 PM
So do I have to take my guns in for my doctor to register, or is giving him a list goin to be enough. Where can I find the instructions to have my guns registered my the AMA?

foghornl
January 25, 2013, 01:25 PM
My reply will be:

"Hey Doc, do you know the meaning of the term 'Boundary Violation'?"

Aikibiker
January 25, 2013, 01:25 PM
In Fl it is against the law for them to ask. I had to point this out the other day.

HoosierQ
January 25, 2013, 01:31 PM
Smart quips and "none of your business" will be put down as "yes" by just about every person asking such a question, doctor or otherwise. You don't want people to know? Just say no. One person in a thousand who doesn't own a gun will bother to say "none of your business". It's just about the same as actually saying yes. It's not a court so a) refusing to answer does you no good, and b) saying no regardless does you no harm.

mrvco
January 25, 2013, 01:34 PM
I'd just answer the question with a question...

"Would YOU give someone your home address and then inform them that you have no reasonable means of defending yourself?".

thorazine
January 25, 2013, 02:45 PM
Clever responses might seem cool but since we know the purpose behind the question anything but a "no" answer is a "yes" answer -- unless I am mistaken?

MedWheeler
January 25, 2013, 11:33 PM
In Fl it is against the law for them to ask. I had to point this out the other day.

I'm pretty sure this law has been stayed (suspended) pending further review by the courts. It was challenged on 1A grounds.

CLP
January 26, 2013, 12:35 AM
Clever responses might seem cool but since we know the purpose behind the question anything but a "no" answer is a "yes" answer -- unless I am mistaken?
That's precisely my point. And those particular data entries are/will be searchable.

USAF_Vet
January 26, 2013, 12:37 AM
That's precisely my point. And those particular data entries are/will be searchable.
So what? It's not illegal to lie to them about your gun ownership.

What good is a half arsed registry system that has a 50% chance of being false?

CLP
January 26, 2013, 04:47 PM
So what? It's not illegal to lie to them about your gun ownership.

What good is a half arsed registry system that has a 50% chance of being false?
Well, it's the limitations of the data that can be obtained. They can cross reference gunshot wounds with gun owners or show increased prevalence of injuries from gun shots with increased gun ownership. Both of these are gun control fodder.

What they don't collect, what the CDC will not collect, is data concerning the use of firearms that saved someone's life (e.g. protecting one's self from a home intruder). The data collected can only be used to show gun ownership in a bad light.

Cosmoline
January 26, 2013, 04:54 PM
I dig through medical records all the time. Trust me, they are a long way from being organized anywhere near well enough to link addresses, names and gun ownership. And there's an easy way to avoid getting onto some feared "registry" of medical records--don't tell the doctor about your firearms.

Cranky CJ
January 26, 2013, 06:33 PM
part of my last conversation with my doctor was what I needed to do to be more healthy for hunting season. we discussed my needs and he could infer from the conversation that i had guns. i don't really care, neither did he.

the .gov knows i own guns; i apply for a hunting license every year, i have a carry permit and have purchased guns through a ffl. i think everybody is giving .gov too much credit, they aren't that good at what they do, take a look at the state of .gov affairs after all.

dadpig
January 27, 2013, 01:06 AM
I only ask patients to see if they have they same hobby as me. That is how i found most of my shooting buddies. IMHO the "gubbement" does not have the right to such information:p.

WSM MAGNUM
January 27, 2013, 11:56 AM
If my doctor asks me questions about about firearms, I will simply tell him/her that the questions are irrelevant. If the doctor states that he/she is required by federal law, then I will say that there is no law. Obama`s EO is of no effect and not law.
Then I will tell him/her that I am finding another doctor that will not ask questions about my guns. We must push the doctors not to comply. And there are a lot of doctors already saying they will not comply.

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