Caliber wars!


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ThatGiantMidGet
January 26, 2013, 07:04 PM
So caliber wars anybody?

I love 9 mm and .45 But I think the .40 Is where It's at.

Just Watch this Video about James Yeager Dissing the .40

and then watch this video which Is what I believe (basically out of somebody else's mouth (because im kinda lazy right now to type that much) LOL

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TennJed
January 27, 2013, 03:59 AM
The more views he gets, the more money he stands to make. Why link him? You are doing exacetly what he wants you to do

Walkalong
January 27, 2013, 06:05 PM
That's about it.

2zulu1
January 27, 2013, 08:00 PM
Who's Yeager?

PO2Hammer
January 27, 2013, 08:12 PM
who cares?

beeenbag
January 27, 2013, 08:24 PM
I wasn't really impressed by either. Neither one showed any evidence of their arguement. It was all just one guys opinion.

Basically one guy says, that 40 wears out your gun and doesn't offer enough of a power advantage to deal with the extra recoil.

The other says the 40 offers enough of a power advantage to deal with the extra recoil.

Pretty common knowledge stuff really ( in our world ). I can't believe that capacity was never brought up.

Roadrebel98
January 27, 2013, 10:41 PM
I still believe in the .45acp, just my personal favorite..

ThatGiantMidGet
January 27, 2013, 11:04 PM
I personally love the .40 Its a mix of 9mm and .45 acp

.40 has higher velocity than .45 acp

.40 = Good expansion (in cheap stuff) and great expansion in high quality loads.

.40 has about the same capacity as 9mm (usually -1-2 bullets less)

I dont get why people don't like the .40 S&W more :/

It's basically a little 10mm bulldog...

ThatGiantMidGet
January 27, 2013, 11:06 PM
The more views he gets, the more money he stands to make. Why link him? You are doing exacetly what he wants you to do
Either way hes Gonna Get Views and money If hes on that side of youtube. I personally don't care I Just wanted to show you Guys the pros of the .40 (and by using a video I don't have to type as much) It's called being lazy

PO2Hammer
January 28, 2013, 03:07 AM
You'll have to understand that most of us are bored to tears with caliber wars. Not exactly a fresh subject.

Shadow 7D
January 28, 2013, 04:21 AM
Yawn...
scratch
snuffle

Naw, same ol same ol...
Some platforms (guns, types systems...)
work better with some calibers than others...
as for the rest, much like your underware, it's a personal opinion, and vary varied

evan price
January 28, 2013, 07:08 AM
Yeager? Isn't he that internet tough-guy who got his CCW license yanked because he didn't know when to shut his gob? Yea, he's an expert on ballistics I'm sure.

CDW4ME
January 28, 2013, 09:42 AM
There is no such thing as a caliber war.

If you want more smaller bullets get a 9mm (Glock 19)
If you want slightly bigger bullets, and are willing to decrease capacity, get a 40 (Glock 23)
If you want the typically biggest bullet available in a pistol, and are willing to futher decrease capacity, get a 45 (Glock 30)

It's a decision / compromise not a war.

scaatylobo
January 28, 2013, 10:19 AM
I own and carry all handgun calibers.

Its SHOT PLACEMENT ,that is THE only thing that matters.

Caliber is a bunch of hoo haw.

A miss with any caliber is a waste of ammo and a possibly injured/dead innocent.

Bikewer
January 28, 2013, 12:59 PM
Our department (like a large number of police agencies) has been issuing the Glock 23 (.40) for about 15 years.
None of our officers have any trouble with the weapon, from big, strong males to relatively petite females.

I think it's an excellent compromise. I don't find the recoil punishing at all....

When the caliber first began "hitting the streets" as a police round, agencies using it reported excellent results. A high percentage of "one shot stops"; equal to the previously-issued (in most cases) .357 revolvers.

I continue to be unimpressed with the "shot placement" arguments. Yes, if you can bisect junior's aorta with your .380.... Likely he will go down with due haste.

Performing that feat under actual combat conditions is liable to be....Unlikely.

The history of police gunfights indicate a 25% hit rate through most all the decades such incidents have been analyzed. That's "hits" on the person, not the vital bits.
This regardless of training. We now know of the numerous physical and psychological effects of the stress of combat.
People involved in shooting incidents tend to suffer from target fixation, tunnel vision, loss of fine motor control, loss of hearing..... And others as well. They normally cannot say how many rounds they fired.

And that doesn't take into account the realities of the circumstances. One thing to engage a nicely-lit, stationary target at a nice, comfortable shooting range.
Another to engage an actual shooter in a dark alley who might be moving or hiding behind a dumpster.
In actual combat, instead of "shot placement" you might have to "settle for what you can get."
So....IMO... A peripheral hit with a bigger slug is more likely to be debilitating than a peripheral hit with a little one.

Zardaia
January 28, 2013, 01:05 PM
I own and carry all handgun calibers.

Its SHOT PLACEMENT ,that is THE only thing that matters.

Caliber is a bunch of hoo haw.

A miss with any caliber is a waste of ammo and a possibly injured/dead innocent.
Unless you CC a .500 s&w. Then i would think any hit to the torso's pretty much end of fight. Of course, wearing a parka to cover it up may look kinda odd in fl. .45acp ftw

Skribs
January 28, 2013, 01:07 PM
A few things I hate seeing in caliber war threads...
1) Shot placement is key. With very few exceptions, shot placement is going to be similar between 9, .357 sig, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP. The only time it won't is if you can't handle the recoil (a valid possibility, especially for smaller shooters).
2) It's the gun you have with you that matters. This argument makes sense if you're getting mugged, that the 9mm on you is better than the shotgun at home. However, when you're selecting carry hardware, "the gun you have with you" is the gun you planned ahead to bring.
3) People who disagree with me (okay, kidding on #3).

Personally, I've approached caliber wars in a few different ways. First I asked "what's best?" Then I said "I think this is best." Now I'm looking at things and wondering if a 10-round limit would affect my consideration, and it probably would be. I'd be more likely to carry a small 6-7 round pistol if limited to 10 (instead of comparing it to a 15+ round pistol), in a compact carry pistol I'd be more likely to opt for .357 sig or .40 S&W, and in a duty pistol I'd be more likely to pursue .45 ACP.

As it is right now, I prefer 9mm. The ratio of expanded-to-original diameter is bigger with 9mm than .45 (compare 0.65 to 0.36 vs. 0.77 to 0.45, which is the average of what I've seen from gel tests or 80% increase vs. 71%), and the difference in size isn't all that great. Capacity is the biggest factor for me, but cost and recoil play a big part as well.

Zardaia, I wouldn't be so sure. Look at the woman recently who shot an attacker 5 times in the face with .38 spc, the rounds penetrated down through the man's torso. (She was hiding in the attic with her kids, explaining the downward trajectory. Hit with 5 of the 6 rounds in her revolver). The fight stopped, but only because the attacker gave up. According to reports he was begging her to stop shooting and left the scene of his own accord, only to be found by authorities after crashing his car. Granted, .38 is a bit weaker than even 9mm, but you would still think 5 shots to the face would put someone down right there.

ThatGiantMidGet
January 28, 2013, 01:20 PM
Sorry Guys Im a lil fresh to this website (newbie) :neener:

Anyways some people Got something out of this Thread (Mostly me)

So I'm happy.

easyg
January 28, 2013, 02:02 PM
Its SHOT PLACEMENT ,that is THE only thing that matters.

Caliber is a bunch of hoo haw.

I disagree.
Shot placement is king, no doubt about it.
But the round must be able to penetrate deep enough to reach vital organs and vessels.
A round that cannot reliably penetrate heavy winter clothing, or a round that is easily deflected by even the smallest of bones, is not a round I'm willing to stake my life upon.


A miss with any caliber is a waste of ammo and a possibly injured/dead innocent.
True. But a hit with an ineffective round can still get you killed.

When it comes to handguns I'm content with .45 ACP, .40 S&W, .357 Sig, 9mm Para +P, .357 magnum.



Easy

Ehtereon11B
January 28, 2013, 02:33 PM
Calibers have their place. I have 9mm, .40, and .45s. In general the 9mm are smaller, easier to conceal, more comfortable in hot weather. The .40 are midsized and more balanced. The .45 are bigger for when you go to that section of town that just doesn't feel right. Carry as much gun as you feel like carrying. With modern ammo choices, 9mm/.40/.45 are ballistically closer than they have ever been. A high end 9mm+p round will penetrate deeper and expand than a .40 or .45 target load would.

How I feel about Yeager is not very High Road. But I will say I don't like him. Anyone who uses that man as a guide for anything needs to stay away from firearms because he uses bad advice.

lobo9er
January 28, 2013, 02:44 PM
My opinion is 40 is too snappy. The first time I shot a friends full size Glock in 40 it really surprised me. Wasn't unmanageable obviously but snappier than I thought it was going to be. Later I learned about 40 being rather high pressure, and being a shortened 10mm and so on. Just my opinion. though I know its very popular and many carry it.

MTMilitiaman
January 28, 2013, 03:09 PM
I read a magazine article in which the author went through the published test results for the FBI's handgun ballistics tests and found that the best .45 loads had on average a 15 to 20% advantage in wound volume compared to the best 9mm loads. Is that enough to appreciate? Maybe. But you have to weigh it against the increased ammunition cost and recoil and the decrease in magazine capacity associated with the larger calibers. The .40 I would expect would be right in the middle.

I think effective self-defense is 95% shot placement, 4% bullet selection, and 1% everything else. So all these caliber wars, this make and model verses this make and model arguments, and most of everything else that it seems a lot of people get so focused on in these forums falls in that tiny 1% that's left after you pick the best bullet for what you need with what you got and put it where it needs to be.

contactcole
January 29, 2013, 12:11 AM
I don't need someone I don't know telling me what's best for me. I'm a grown adult and can think for myself.

Skribs
January 29, 2013, 12:51 PM
The .45 are bigger for when you go to that section of town that just doesn't feel right.

What does the likelihood of being attacked have to do with the firepower you will need when attacked?

MTMilitia, I don't place much stock in wound volume. If you consider the goal (hit something vital) and the only thing vital enough to stop a target in seconds in the chest is the heart, I'm more worried about getting hits onto the heart. I don't think the .45 offers a significant advantage there (maybe 5% of the shots with the .45 that would hit the heart would be a miss with a 9), but an extra 2-6 rounds will increase the possibility of a good, solid it.

I don't need someone I don't know telling me what's best for me. I'm a grown adult and can think for myself.

So why are you on a discussion forum? Yes, everyone can think for themselves, but as a group you can learn from the experience and knowledge of others. I encourage people to make their own decision, but I also encourage people to tell everyone else what they think is best, to get the discussion going. You often learn things you didn't know if you keep an open mind.

TarDevil
January 29, 2013, 01:03 PM
So why are you on a discussion forum? Yes, everyone can think for themselves, but as a group you can learn from the experience and knowledge of others. I encourage people to make their own decision, but I also encourage people to tell everyone else what they think is best, to get the discussion going. You often learn things you didn't know if you keep an open mind.

Well said, Skribs.

The more I learn, the more I realize how much I have to learn. I'll never turn down advice or suggestions.

Bikewer
January 29, 2013, 01:14 PM
Bear in mind as well that few individuals have the time, money, and resources to exhaustively test a wide variety of firearms and ammunition...
So discussion from many points of view can be valuable.

However, over the many years, I have seen varieties of "tests" done by various agencies and gun magazines and other groups which were highly suspect in terms of methodology and conclusions.

Human beings are extremely variable in terms of size, strength, determination, chemical enhancement, and many other factors as well. Bullets tend to strike human beings in various locations and at varying angles because of all that it's very difficult to devise a test that tells you a great deal about combat performance....
About the best that can be done is to say what a particular load will do in a particular test medium.
Careful analysis of actual shooting incidents over a long time period is liable to at least give an indication of trends and averages, which is about the best that can be expected.
Unfortunately, such data is difficult to come by.

Roadking Rider
January 29, 2013, 06:05 PM
Been on the net and shooting to long to go down this road again. As as far a JY. Ppffftt who cares what he thinks.

BlindJustice
January 29, 2013, 07:45 PM
Cartridge/Chambering

Not Calibers caliberr is a characteristc of Cartrdge/bore size

How many different cartrdges in <insert caliber> yah want?

Randall

Skribs
January 29, 2013, 07:53 PM
Except I've always heard it "caliber war" not "cartridge war" on the forums. Usually because the common culprits are 9/40/45.

saulteux
January 30, 2013, 06:19 AM
I couldn't care less about caliber, as long as it makes a deep enough hole where I want that hole to be.

R.W.Dale
January 30, 2013, 08:54 AM
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/krochus/FIRE/joke10.jpg




posted via that mobile app with the sig lines everyone complains about

Queen_of_Thunder
January 30, 2013, 11:55 AM
Just get a glock 20 with 15 rounds of 10MM. Capacity us force.

KenW.
January 30, 2013, 09:47 PM
Well, insofar as handguns go, if it's not a 22LR, 22Mag, 25ACP, 32ACP, 38spec, 38Super, 9mm, 357 Mag, 10mm, 40SW, 45 Colt, .410 bore, 41 Mag, 44 Mag, or a 45ACP; I just don't want it!

I'll still pass on a 45GAP, thank you very much.

Skribs
January 31, 2013, 12:43 AM
I'm with you Ken.

ThatGiantMidGet
January 31, 2013, 02:43 PM
...

ThatGiantMidGet
January 31, 2013, 02:47 PM
Ok So Idk Whats going on with TheHighRoad But basically this is a thread to nowhere now since my links went missing (sorry people) :banghead:

Skribs
January 31, 2013, 03:52 PM
Caliber war threads are always a thread to nowhere.

And half the time I learn something.

pdosh
January 31, 2013, 04:15 PM
From studies I've read they all get the job done about the same in the real world. I started with a 40 and shoot that the most in USPSA but downloaded to 9mm power mostly. But I have a couple of 9mm too and use my M&P Shield in local IDPA because that's what I carry lately.

A good reason to have a 40 is I can buy ammo everywhere in town today for it, but no 9mm in sight!

Skribs
January 31, 2013, 04:19 PM
A good reason to have a 40 is I can buy ammo everywhere in town today for it, but no 9mm in sight!

As I've recently learned, another good reason for .40 or .357 is that if you want a 9 all you need is a new barrel. If you get 9 and want to go up you need at least a new slide.

BlindJustice
January 31, 2013, 05:31 PM
My shooting buddy goes on an annual hike&camp in the Idaho panhandle every summer when his brother comes up from Calif. every summer. This past summer the Forest Service ranger warned of Black Bear activity in the area. He had his Glock 19/9mm along with him but felt a bit undergunned.

About 2 months ago he got a new camping gun.... a Glock 20/10 mm Auto. I've shot it and it's impressive. Better suited to heavier bullet weights when compared to the .40 S&W. He handloads and is working on 200 gr. loads. Seems appropriate for the use.

R-

Skribs
January 31, 2013, 06:00 PM
Yeah, for two-legged predators and most four-legged American predators, I'd say the 9/.40/.45 probably aren't going to be much worse (per bullet) than something heavier, like .357 sig, 10mm, or some of the more obscure calibers. But if you're going up against something bigger, you probably want heavy FMJs in a more powerful cartridge.

KenW.
February 1, 2013, 12:37 AM
I find this entertaining. Regardless what some of those who post here say.

Still don't want a .45 GAP.

savanahsdad
February 1, 2013, 01:12 AM
we are talking shooting at 5 to 20 feet , right ?..
115gr 9mm dbl.tap , 230gr 45ACP 1 shot, 9mm 15 round mag is = to 1911 45ACP with only 8 rounds so pick your gun and your cal. and hope you never need it ,

CGT80
February 1, 2013, 02:45 AM
Why not go for the biggest and fastest? 45 cal 240 grains @1917 fps with 45 grains of win 296 propelling it. It doubles as a flash bang :) OK, the 460 is just a range toy.

I can shoot all three very well-9mm, 40, and 45 acp. I compete with 9mm 124 JHP at 970 fps. It is very fast for follow up shots and would hold the most with standard mags (10 rounds in CA by law). 40 cal is a bit snappy with mid to full power loads, but I can still shoot well with it. 45 ACP is easy to shoot but it takes a little longer to recover the sights after that bigger push from the recoil.

In Cali, they can all hold only 10 rounds for the average civilian. I don't know how much difference a faster shooting 9mm would make vs. a 45 acp with almost twice the bullet weight, but a slower transition time from target to target.

bubba in ca
February 1, 2013, 11:50 PM
Any of the 3 cartridges should work fine if you triple tap him, step to the side, evaluate and shoot some more if necessary!

2 is the statistical number of torso or head shots you need to stop someone, but add in the third shot for felons who are not statisticians.

That being said, my backup HD gun is 44 special, which has ballistics very similar to 45 auto. If i didn`t have the 44 I would buy a 357 and probably shoot 38 plus p for in the house.

klover
February 2, 2013, 12:19 AM
45 is a nice, gentle push, and not a snap at all. This is the main reason it is one of my favorites.

I have shot lots of 40,9,357 sig (talk about snappy!), and all the usual revolver stuff.
Just because a round is snappy is not enough for me to dismiss it, and I really enjoy shooting 357 sig. That said, I prefer to have lots of 9 and 45 around to simply limit my broad range of calibers in use. On most days, a 9 feels adequate, and when ill, I like a plastic 9 because it is light. If you argue for availability in the field, I would bet 9 and 45 beat out 40.

PabloJ
February 2, 2013, 01:13 PM
So caliber wars anybody?

I love 9 mm and .45 But I think the .40 Is where It's at.

Just Watch this Video about James Yeager Dissing the .40

and then watch this video which Is what I believe (basically out of somebody else's mouth (because im kinda lazy right now to type that much) LOL
I would agree with assessment of .40S&W. At least one can actually find ammo in that caliber on store shelf. Never had good sense when buying handguns. Instead of choosing one of half dozen Glock 24s on table I chose five-shot revolver:banghead: chambered for 9mm Luger cartridge.:(

The_Armed_Therapist
February 2, 2013, 07:37 PM
10mm here... followed extremely closely by .45acp. Everything else is a step down. :cool:

BlindJustice
February 2, 2013, 08:07 PM
Just a Datum point so bear with me....

I live in SE Wash. State, Whitman County is pretty much dryland wheat
with the occaisional valley with a bit of water to green things in a college
town of Pullman Wash. - Wash. State Universityl


Wash State Patrol has a regioal office and patrolmen out of
the County seat 17 milts north of Pullman
WSP - S&W M&P .40 S&W - they dropp some H&K .40s some
few yearrs back because of lack of customer service
Whitman County SHerifs - Kimber 1911 <-- new sheriff about 6-7?
years ago had them convert from Glocks

WSU Campus Police - Glock .40 full size

Pullman City Police Glock 17 for Uniforms and G19 for plain clothes

Magazines tween departments don't transfer

R-

meanmrmustard
February 2, 2013, 10:44 PM
There is no such thing as a caliber war.

If you want more smaller bullets get a 9mm (Glock 19)
If you want slightly bigger bullets, and are willing to decrease capacity, get a 40 (Glock 23)
If you want the typically biggest bullet available in a pistol, and are willing to futher decrease capacity, get a 45 (Glock 30)

It's a decision / compromise not a war.
Or if you're a man, get a G20!

meanmrmustard
February 2, 2013, 10:46 PM
As I've recently learned, another good reason for .40 or .357 is that if you want a 9 all you need is a new barrel. If you get 9 and want to go up you need at least a new slide.
We have a winner!!!

BlindJustice
February 2, 2013, 11:17 PM
FYI/FWIW

I have read of the Denmark army puts out 2 man teams to census the polar bear population on Greenland. They must get re-supplied by helo
when they aren't near the bears. They are armed with a .30-06 bolt action rifle and for the sidearm, a Glock 20.

Randall

sidheshooter
February 2, 2013, 11:43 PM
Here we go:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y198/FenderBMW/357poster.jpg


Seriously, though, I can't believe that we haven't posted this one yet:


http://www.papadeltabravo.com/pics/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg

Bob Bonillas
February 3, 2013, 12:07 AM
The 40 was developed because the recoil of the 10mm was too much for the women and the men who's revolvers are most likely a "Lady Smith"

CDW4ME
February 3, 2013, 11:18 AM
Or if you're a man, get a G20!

I have a 29 SF. :)

CDW4ME
February 3, 2013, 11:24 AM
The 40 was developed because the recoil of the 10mm was too much for the women and the men who's revolvers are most likely a "Lady Smith"

I have a Glock 29 SF 10mm as noted in post above.

However, the 29 SF is not as small as the true subcompact size 27
Sometimes the 27 is a better choice for concealment due to the smaller size.
Therefore, the 40 S&W serves a very important role...
without it I would be forced to carry a 9mm Glock 26

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