Mental illness and owning firearms


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whm1974
January 27, 2013, 08:57 AM
Hello guys I haven't been on this forum for years since I sold the guns I had about five years ago.

I filed for disabilty due to depression three years ago and I'm waiting for my benefits.

Awhile back my roommate told me that when once I get my benefits I can no longer own a firearm. Any truth to this?

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Ash
January 27, 2013, 09:05 AM
It is possible. Depression is a mental illness.

LiENUS
January 27, 2013, 09:31 AM
Unless theres a different local law or they pass a new federal law the ATF has this to say on it
A person is
“adjudicated as a mental defective”
if a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority has made
a determination that a person, as a result of marked subnormal intelligence, mental illness, incompetency, condition,
or disease:
Is a danger to himself or to others;
Lacks the mental capacity to contract or manage his own affairs;
Is found insane by a court in a criminal case;
or
Is found incompetent to stand trial, or not guilty by reason of lack of mental responsibility, pursuant to articles
50a and 72b of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, 10 U.S.C. §§ 850a, 876b.
(source: http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/i/atf-i-3310-4.pdf )
That might fall under lacks mental capacity to contract or manage his own affairs but if you're living alone and still feeding yourself it seems like that would be a stretch you really would need to talk to an attorney to have a better idea though. The last person I knew that went on disability had to have an attorney in the first place to get disability benefits, do you have one assisting you now? you might need to be asking him rather than asking us here.

whm1974
January 27, 2013, 09:49 AM
That might fall under lacks mental capacity to contract or manage his own affairs but if you're living alone and still feeding yourself it seems like that would be a stretch you really would need to talk to an attorney to have a better idea though.

I'll ask him next time I see him. However I live in subdise housing, so I may not be allow to have firearms in my apartment.

Sam1911
January 27, 2013, 10:07 AM
"Ajudicated" is the operative word. If you haven't been officially declared by a court to be one of the things listed above, then you may answer "NO" on that section of the 4473.

pendennis
January 27, 2013, 12:37 PM
Hello guys I haven't been on this forum for years since I sold the guns I had about five years ago.

I filed for disabilty due to depression three years ago and I'm waiting for my benefits.

Awhile back my roommate told me that when once I get my benefits I can no longer own a firearm. Any truth to this?
You really need to contact an attorney concerning this. If you already have an attorney as a result of applying for SSI, he should be able to tell you, or refer you to an attorney who has expertise in this area.

NaturalDefensiveRights
January 27, 2013, 01:01 PM
In your case, it probably depends on whether you're a danger to yourself or others. That would largely be determined by what you've said on the matter. Obviously you have the mental capacity to be on this forum and take care of your own affairs.

You have to keep in the mind, that in the future, any mental conditions could bar someone from owning firearms, no matter how slight. The gun grabbers did it with all non-violent felons (with the 1960 NRA's help) - they'll have no qualms about doing it to other classes of people as well.

And then,
"Once more the Sith will rule the galaxy, and, we shall have..........peace." - Emperor Palpatine.

whm1974
January 27, 2013, 01:25 PM
Thanks guys I'll ask my lawyer next time I see him.

BSA1
January 27, 2013, 07:57 PM
Sam1911,

Well at least you tried to explain it.

Social Security Disability benefits deal with the persons ability to work not their mental competency nor is the panel of medical doctors that reviews the case a court of law.

JohnBT
January 27, 2013, 08:16 PM
But if Social Security sends the monthly check to (in care of, etc.) a third party Representative Payee, the assumption is often made that the person with a disability is incompetent and can't take care of their daily business.

"Lacks the mental capacity to contract or manage his own affairs;"

Otoh, some folks are physically unable to get to the bank, write checks, etc. and need a Representative Payee to do the leg work for them. They should still be able to own firearms.

John

Coop45
January 27, 2013, 08:22 PM
A person is
“adjudicated as a mental defective”
if a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority has made
a determination that a person, as a result of marked subnormal intelligence, mental illness, incompetency, condition,
or disease:
Is a danger to himself or to others;
Lacks the mental capacity to contract or manage his own affairs;
Is found insane by a court in a criminal case;
or
Is found incompetent to stand trial, or not guilty by reason of lack of mental responsibility, pursuant to articles
50a and 72b of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, 10 U.S.C. §§ 850a, 876b.


Correct answer

Coop45
January 27, 2013, 08:23 PM
aaaa

JohnBT
January 27, 2013, 08:30 PM
Just because I know too much about the process... :)

"panel of medical doctors that reviews the case"

There is no panel of doctors. The 'disability determination services' offices in each state are contracted by Social Security to make the medical determinations. The college grads they hire are state employees, making state wages, but working under SSA directions and regulations. Sure, they have a consulting M.D. or two, but there's no panel of doctors.

Fwiw, if you ever take a case to the hearing level, take a lawyer with you because the hearing officer is a lawyer under contract, not a doctor.

splattergun
January 27, 2013, 08:39 PM
Have you been 'adjudicated' mentally ill or defective? are you a danger to yourself or another person? Be honest with yourself. Please.
If you have suicidal or homicidal thoughts, please do yourself a favor, set aside your wish to own firearms.

If, however, your mind is well, check with your doctor and your attorney first, before proceeding.

And, if you are well, welcome back.

whm1974
January 27, 2013, 10:08 PM
But if Social Security sends the monthly check to (in care of, etc.) a third party Representative Payee, the assumption is often made that the person with a disability is incompetent and can't take care of their daily business.

"Lacks the mental capacity to contract or manage his own affairs;"

I'll keep that in mind about having a payee

Have you been 'adjudicated' mentally ill or defective? are you a danger to yourself or another person? Be honest with yourself. Please.
If you have suicidal or homicidal thoughts, please do yourself a favor, set aside your wish to own firearms.

No and No. I had a IL FOID card. I had sold my guns a few years before it exspired, so I didn't renew it.

It's not so much owning firearms but legally being able to shoot and handle them at gun ranges.

JFtheGR8
January 28, 2013, 06:23 PM
Have you been 'adjudicated' mentally ill or defective? are you a danger to yourself or another person? Be honest with yourself. Please.
If you have suicidal or homicidal thoughts, please do yourself a favor, set aside your wish to own firearms.

If, however, your mind is well, check with your doctor and your attorney first, before proceeding.

And, if you are well, welcome back.

Excellent advice. Nobody knows what's going through your mind but you. If you feel that you wouldn't be able to trust yourself at your absolute lowest point then keep the firearms out of your home. I watched my dad battle depression and it was very heart breaking. He's doing better now but it's an ongoing battle. Good luck to you and God bless my friend.


Posted from Thehighroad.org App for Android

whm1974
January 28, 2013, 07:45 PM
Excellent advice. Nobody knows what's going through your mind but you. If you feel that you wouldn't be able to trust yourself at your absolute lowest point then keep the firearms out of your home. I watched my dad battle depression and it was very heart breaking. He's doing better now but it's an ongoing battle. Good luck to you and God bless my friend.

Yes it is. Even if I had a FOID and the money I'm not planning on buying any firearms soon, I just want to be able to own them in the future.

Sorry to hear about your dad. Glad he is better now.

Shadow 7D
January 28, 2013, 08:08 PM
lawful authority has made
that's the kicker, it's alot in HOW they write it up
AND folks, remember that one of Obama's fixes is to require all state and federal entities to forward lists to the FBI NICS database. Much of the question is going to be what/who makes that list. It's entirely foreseeable that they just forward entire categories.

BSA1
January 28, 2013, 09:51 PM
Thanks for the clarification JohnBT,

As I understand the process all of the entire decision making is done by Administrative Law Judges whom do not have any medical training and are not required to consult any medical professionals when making their decision. Their entire decision is based on which lawyers puts on the best dog and pony show.

Something I am curious about. According to the information I have 90% of the claims are denied by the State Determination Services and of that number only 18% appeal to the Administrative Judge Level. If the claim is denied again it may be appealed to the Appeals Council and then again to Federal Court where 80% of the claims are approved.

This entire process strongly suggest that the actual medical condition of the person has nothing to do with the determinatoin until it reaches Federal Court and is designed to force the person to drop his/her claim due to lack of money to live on while pursing the appeals.

My question is do have have any information on what % of claims are approved at the Administrative Judge Level and by the Appeals Council?

whm1974
January 28, 2013, 10:59 PM
As to the op, if you're to mentally ill to work, you're not safe to be trusted with a firearm.

Well, he's too ill to work, how do you think that reflects on his "state of mind?"

That's depends. Most of the time I have a total lack of energy to do anything. I also have major hearing loss and poor eyesight.

JohnBT
January 29, 2013, 08:40 AM
" According to the information I have 90% of the claims are denied by the State Determination Services and of that number only 18% appeal to the Administrative Judge Level."

Those numbers aren't accurate. Bear in mind that the biggest reason for being denied (other than not being sick enough to meet the Listings) seems to be either bad info or a complete lack of medical info. I've advised folks for over 30 years to get their own medical record copies. Think about it, if you let SSA send releases of information, you are putting your case in the hands of a minimum wage copy clerk at the doctor's office. SSA requires specific info with hard data, lab results, etc. A note from a doctor that you're "disabled" won't do at all.

www.ssdfacts.com and click on a state for the stats.

For Virginia the initial approval rate was 35.6%.
The Reconsideration/first appeal rate was 17.2%.
(The CDR number listed is for folks with conditions that might improve, so they're re-evaluated every few years. 79.2% kept getting benefits.)

The approval number for Hearings in Virginia was 52.1%. Of course, it will take at least a year to even get scheduled after you lose all of the earlier appeals - they're backed up.

The Hearing is the first time an Administrative Law Judge (contract lawyer) will be involved.

The Initial determination is made by a Determiner at the state level.
The first appeal is called the Reconsideration and is made by a more experienced Determiner at the state level.
And it goes on from there.

mljdeckard
January 29, 2013, 09:01 AM
Look at it this way. Is everyone in this nation who uses Prozac now ineligible to own a gun?

BSA1
January 29, 2013, 09:21 AM
As to the op, if you're to mentally ill to work, you're not safe to be trusted with a firearm.

Baloney!!!

There are many types of mental illness most of which are manageable with counseling and medication.

There are several reasons someone with mental illness may not be able to work a regular job outside the home. Maybe the individual is unable to handle working a high stress job, aggressive supervisors or be able to perform certain tasks. Or maybe the type of work a mentally ill person can perform isn't available in his/her area or pays too poorly to live on.

Just because a person doesn't have a job outside the home doesn't mean they don't "work". Managing a household such as doing laundry, cleaning the house, fixing meals, taking care of the kids, paying bills is work unless you are a alpha male.

Sadly our society which values having more possesssions and lifestyles better than your neighbor has lost sight of what is really important; such as spending time with your family, teaching family values, respect and tolerance for your neighbors, caring for the elderly such as your parents, helping others who through no fault of their own have difficulty meeting your expectations.

When you paint with a broad brush you usually show your ignorance on the topic.

whm1974
January 29, 2013, 09:23 AM
Do you understand that the riskiest point in the recovery process is not when you are feeling lousy, its later on, when you begin to feel better, thats the point where things can become dicey.

Good point. I'll keep that in mind.

Look at it this way. Is everyone in this nation who uses Prozac now ineligible to own a gun?

Good question. Some of these meds are taken for sleep disorders among other reasons besides mental illness.

whm1974
January 29, 2013, 05:55 PM
Sadly our society which values having more possesssions and lifestyles better than your neighbor has lost sight of what is really important; such as spending time with your family, teaching family values, respect and tolerance for your neighbors, caring for the elderly such as your parents, helping others who through no fault of their own have difficulty meeting your expectations.

You are correct. If I had kids for example I would welcome this time I have to spend with them, even if I don't have the energy to do much.

Zombiphobia
January 29, 2013, 06:01 PM
If you can work, pay your bills, take care of yourself etc.. and not threatening suicide or harming others you're fine.

And the law is that unless you specifically state that you're actively planning to hurt yourself or others, the psychiatrist or psychologist cannot report it, but if you ARE planning such, they are required to report it.


If you're just depressed and not a danger to yourself or others, there's nothing to stop you.

That's what licensed, practicing psychiatrists/psychologists have told me personally.

I don't know about the doctor making up their mind that you're a danger without you specifically stating it, but under certain circumstances they CAN have you legally institutionalized temporarily for thorough examination. If that hasn't happened, you're fine. If it has happened, you cannot own a firearms legally.

whm1974
January 29, 2013, 06:30 PM
I don't know about the doctor making up their mind that you're a danger without you specifically stating it, but under certain circumstances they CAN have you legally institutionalized temporarily for thorough examination. If that hasn't happened, you're fine. If it has happened, you cannot own a firearms legally.

This hasn't happend to me.

LiENUS
January 29, 2013, 10:34 PM
I don't know about the doctor making up their mind that you're a danger without you specifically stating it, but under certain circumstances they CAN have you legally institutionalized temporarily for thorough examination. If that hasn't happened, you're fine. If it has happened, you cannot own a firearms legally.
The ATF seems to disagree with you.
A person is
“committed to a mental institution”
if that person has been formally committed to a mental institution
by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority.
and then to follow up...
The term
does not include
a person in a mental institution for observation or by voluntary admission
If you were hospitalized for observation then they say you can still own firearms (source: http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/i/atf-i-3310-4.pdf) however the question is does receiving disability count as a board "adjudicating as a mental defective" due to the "Lacks the mental capacity to contract or manage his own affairs" really and truly if you need to get disability why are you worried about whether you can own guns or not are you going to give up disability so you can keep firearms rights if that is the case? There are mental health advocates out there I would talk to one of them they know more about this than we do and can give you better advice than we can.

ezkl2230
January 29, 2013, 11:36 PM
Adjudicated.is not the only word about which you need to be concerned. If you are currently undergoing treatment for depression it can effect your ability to own a firearm even if you have not been adjudicated.

LiENUS
January 30, 2013, 12:12 AM
In my opinion, society and the op are best served by a focus centered on his recovery/treatment, not pursuing firearms rights while at the same time seeking full disability due to mental defect!
My goal is to encourage him to go outside of this forum for that, inquiring about gun rights on this forum is not the correct course of action he needs to be discussing this with someone else if it's that big of a deal with him he should be discussing it with an attorney or his doctor.

Adjudicated.is not the only word about which you need to be concerned. If you are currently undergoing treatment for depression it can effect your ability to own a firearm even if you have not been adjudicated. ezkl2230 I see nothing about simple treatment in the atf's opinion on this, however I do see adjudicated being a key word... perhaps you know something the atf doesn't? http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/i/atf-i-3310-4.pdf

I see people post about this again and again on forums and rather than looking at what the atf says or saying to go to an attorney they try to make guesses about what they think might be the case. If you're undergoing treatment for depression under the current law the atf doesn't care. If you have been adjudicated by certain authorities or if you are presently involuntarily committed (in which case he would likely not be posting here although it is possible) you can't own firearms. They're primarily concerned with what some authority says in a formal hearing and not solely on medical finding.

Zombiphobia
January 30, 2013, 12:30 AM
Lienus, what you posted does not contradict what I stated. Unless I'm misunderstanding.

I mean, the psyche doctor can't physcially arrest someone and put them ina straight jacket, but they can send up a report and a recommendation of committal and then someone else can come and take them to the happy farm. Admittedly, I'm not completely clear on this, but I do agree that the OP should seek advice someplace outside this forum. Like an attorney and whoever is treating him for this depression, who will more likely than not recommend against it, and IME in a demeaning manner.
Anyway, I've been treated for depression, and I temporarily had my weapons taken away, but I was a minor, and it was my parents who took them... I never threatened anyone or did anything to present a threat, so I can still own a firearm.

whm1974
January 30, 2013, 11:19 AM
In my opinion, society and the op are best served by a focus centered on his recovery/treatment, not pursuing firearms rights while at the same time seeking full disability due to mental defect!

I have no desire to own firearms at this time or the forseeable future. And Yes I am focused on my recovery/treatment at the moment.

If it turns out that I can't own fireowns again, then I can deal with that. I can always shoot airguns and/or airsoft later on.

BSA1
January 30, 2013, 12:18 PM
He has talked with an advocate, myself, and my opinion is that if his moods are so chronically labile that he cannot work, then taking on the responsibility of owning, and or carrying a firearm should be avoided.

What about driving? He might drive his car into another car or a crowd of people or off a cliff on purpose.

ezkl2230
January 30, 2013, 12:22 PM
My goal is to encourage him to go outside of this forum for that, inquiring about gun rights on this forum is not the correct course of action he needs to be discussing this with someone else if it's that big of a deal with him he should be discussing it with an attorney or his doctor.

ezkl2230 I see nothing about simple treatment in the atf's opinion on this, however I do see adjudicated being a key word... perhaps you know something the atf doesn't? http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/i/atf-i-3310-4.pdf

I see people post about this again and again on forums and rather than looking at what the atf says or saying to go to an attorney they try to make guesses about what they think might be the case. If you're undergoing treatment for depression under the current law the atf doesn't care. If you have been adjudicated by certain authorities or if you are presently involuntarily committed (in which case he would likely not be posting here although it is possible) you can't own firearms. They're primarily concerned with what some authority says in a formal hearing and not solely on medical finding.
Referring to state laws. In Michigan, being under treatment for depression or other mental issues can stand in the way of a firearm purchase (at least in the case of pistols). Once the treatment has run its course, though, that no longer stands in the way.

BSA1
January 30, 2013, 03:07 PM
Exactly and the Right to Bear and Keep Firearms is guaranteed in The Bill of Rights and is not subject to the whim of public or the forums opinion.

BSA1
January 30, 2013, 05:48 PM
I thought we were talking about mental illness not a mental defect which characterized by significantly impaired cognitive functioning and deficits other adaptive behaviors such as retardation, organic brain damage, and learning disabilities.

Since you alluded to being a licensed mental health professional with a docorate do you advise your patients before they start treatment they may report them to law enforcement causing them to loss their right to bear arms if you decide to do so? Or is that something you decide to do whenever as you put it “if I had a client who was poking around, seeking after such information whilst recieving intensive therapy for a mental illness so debilitating that he is unable to even work.” Do you report them if they disagree with your treatment and seek treatment with another doctor? Do you bring charges against another doctor with the medical licensing board in your state whose opinion and treatment is different than yours?

You state “He is caught up in the perfect catch-22, go to work and continue to treat as do millions of others, or surrender his rights to the state while he recieves full disability compensation due to mental defect.” What do you consider “rudimentary work”? Is managing a household, doing the laundry, fixing meals, taking care of the kids qualify or is it only the type of “work” you approve of?

The CDC estimates that as many as 1 in 10 Americans suffer from depression. It sounds like you have a lot of Americans to report to law enforcement about losing their gun rights. For any type of medical treatment to be effective there has to be a bond of trust that whatever informative I share with my doctor will remain confidential. Especially in the Psychiatry which the patient may divulge their deepest thoughts and emotions. Personally I would be very frightened of receiving any treatment from you.

BSA1
January 30, 2013, 05:56 PM
Referring to state laws. In Michigan, being under treatment for depression or other mental issues can stand in the way of a firearm purchase (at least in the case of pistols). Once the treatment has run its course, though, that no longer stands in the way.

Since some illnesses such as bipolar disorder is a lifetime illness and may require medication and periodic counseling those that seek help are barred from owning a handgun for the rest of their life, even though they are trying to improve themselves, the lives of others around them and be a more productive member of society.

BSA1
January 30, 2013, 08:27 PM
1; Well divorce courts award alimony to homemakers that have never worked outside the home. I guess you need to go straighten out divorce judges.

2; The Social Security Administration is a department of the Federal Government. It defines working as working as “engaging in substantial gainful activity.” For example for bipolar disorder The SSA must conclude the disability must be severe enough to significantly limit one’s ability to perform basic work activities needed to do most jobs. For example:

Walking, standing, sitting, lifting, pushing, pulling, reaching, carrying or handling
Seeing, hearing and speaking
Understanding/carrying out and remembering simple instructions
Responding appropriately to supervision, co-workers and usual work situations
Dealing with changes in a routine work setting

Nowhere do I see where it states the client has to be “emotionally labile, he cannot interact with other people, and he is so emotionally impaired that he has either no energy whatsoever, or that he is periodically psychotic, and or over stimulated!”

For example for Bi-polar Disorder the criteria the SSA lists is;

Bipolar is listed under mental disorders. To satisfy the listing criteria for bipolar disorder, a number of variables are considered:

Anhedonia
Appetite disturbance
Sleep disturbance
Psychomotor agitation or retardation
Decreased energy
Feelings of guilt or worthlessness
Difficulty concentrating or thinking
Thoughts of suicide and hallucinations
Delusions or paranoid thinking

In assessing bipolar disability relative to a listing level impairment, the following areas of functioning are evaluated:
Restrictions of activities of daily living
Maintaining social functioning
Deficiencies of concentration
Persistence or pace
Repeated episodes of decompensation--each of extended duration
An individual who has four symptoms present from the depressive syndrome list, as well as extreme limitation in two of the four functional areas, would probably be eligible for benefits.

As a licensed medical professional you know that Bi-polar Disorder is characterized by periods of high energy “mania” and periods of depression with fluctuations in energy, activity levels and the ability to complete everyday tasks. Yet many brilliant people make contributions to society everyday even though they meet the above criteria.

Again nowhere do I see where it states the client has to be “emotionally labile, he cannot interact with other people, and he is so emotionally impaired that he has either no energy whatsoever, or that he is periodically psychotic, and or over stimulated!” nor does the SSA consider the liklihood of violence which would be expected if it was a criteria.

3. Since the Social Security Administration is a Federal Agency are you assigning them the same power as a Court of Law?

4. Are you saying that if a ALJ and members of the Appeal Panels approve benefits for the client then they have “ajudicated" him for the purposes of BATF Form 4473 and he is forever banned from owning firearms?

5. You did not address my questions about whether you report them if they disagree with your treatment and seek treatment with another doctor and do you bring charges against another doctor with the medical licensing board in your state whose opinion and treatment is different than yours?

6. Contrary to the impression you are trying to create with a largely uninformed audience Psychiatry is far from an exact science and I could make many comments about ability of mental health professionals.

LemmyCaution
January 30, 2013, 09:11 PM
For example:

Walking, standing, sitting, lifting, pushing, pulling, reaching, carrying or handling
Seeing, hearing and speaking
Understanding/carrying out and remembering simple instructions
Responding appropriately to supervision, co-workers and usual work situations
Dealing with changes in a routine work setting

Yes, but safely and competently handling a firearm requires much greater abilities than the above, and our correspondent seems to be failing to clear even this low bar (which is not a judgment of his character, and I wish him a full recovery and a return to firearms ownership). Harsh as Maud Dib sounds, and I certainly don't want him as my doctor, I think he's right in this case.

alsaqr
January 31, 2013, 05:10 AM
The op has postured himself before the government as being so mentally ill, he needs full time economic aid, because he is unable to pursue any gainful employment.

If an idividuals moods are so disordered that they are unable to work, permanently, then gun ownership is a foregone conclusion, no! This topic is inappropriate considering the nature of the ops stated mental health difficulties.

Exactly. Doctor, everything you have said on this thread makes sense to me.

ironhead7544
January 31, 2013, 05:43 AM
In Illinois, I would say you are out of luck. Get an application for a FOID and see if you qualify.

BSA1
January 31, 2013, 09:07 AM
It seems poster M.D. has no counter points and questions I raised in Posts 41 & 43.

I should also point out the his comments "emotionally labile, he cannot interact with other people, and he is so emotionally impaired that he has either no energy whatsoever, or that he is periodically psychotic, and or over stimulated!" are not terms and language true mental health professionals, especially one with a docorate would use.

Puzzled by M.D.'s lack of counterpoints to my questions I directly posed to him and his use of emotional, non-medical terminology I checked his public profile. He states on it:

About Muad Dib
Location
Mlps/St Paul

Interests
wildlife photography

Occupation
Professional wildlife photographer

What I do for the RKBA and other civil liberties
Member NRA, Own more then a few firearms

How's that again??? He lists his occupation is a Professional Wildlife Photographer.

In regards to the O.P.'s original post he, his family and treatment professionals are in the best postion to determine if owning a firearm is wise.

whm1974
January 31, 2013, 11:44 AM
In Illinois, I would say you are out of luck. Get an application for a FOID and see if you qualify.

I was thinking that too.

In regards to the O.P.'s original post he, his family and treatment professionals are in the best postion to determine if owning a firearm is wise.

I would think so. IF it turn out that I can't legally own firearms after I get my SSD then I can deal with that and move on.

Thanks for all the help guys.

Sam1911
January 31, 2013, 09:27 PM
Can't play nice? Oh well. Hope somebody was helped...

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