Reloads for sale


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chasgrips45
January 28, 2013, 05:31 PM
Hi All Am I starting to notice private individuals selling reloads? I would be great , but the legal implications would be horrendous. I guess it would also be risky to shoot a reload that a new reloader made. Any other opinions?

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USSR
January 28, 2013, 05:38 PM
Pretty much covers it; risky to sell them, and risky to shoot someone else's reloads.

Don

Telekinesis
January 28, 2013, 05:47 PM
I would recommend against it for several reasons. For one, you're one double charge away from a lawsuit that would completely cripple you financially. But primarily, to sell reloads with ANY regularity, you will need either an 06 or 07 FFL and the business licenses, taxes (including ITAR, even if you don't plan to trade internationally) and liability insurance that are also required. If you want to have a friend buy loading components and come over and help you load, that's fine. But it's a very narrow line when you start selling you own loads for monetary gain.

Reefinmike
January 28, 2013, 06:03 PM
I get requests weekly from people wanting to buy reloads, just this morning one of my brothers friends was begging me to pay $20 a box for some 380 and I had to say no. I would maybe consider helping out a friend, but It would have to be freshly loaded ammo that I set all the charged cases out on a loading block to be 10000% sure they all have the same powder charge. Im not just gonna grab a box out of a can of ammo i rolled up almost a year ago without extreme scrutiny. Im careful with my reloads, but if someone else is shooting them, you bet your butt id want everything to be perfect. just not worth the risk.

silicosys4
January 28, 2013, 06:31 PM
I'll teach a friend to reload, and walk them through the steps with components that they have purchased, on my equipment, as long as its their hand on the handle. In no way will I accept liability for anything done for a favor in the spirit of friendship.

45lcshooter
January 28, 2013, 08:06 PM
If you read the law. It is illegal to reload your own ammo.

So yes it would be illegal to sell it, unless you have a FFL as a Ammo Manufacture.

sinbad339
January 28, 2013, 08:30 PM
If you read the law. It is illegal to reload your own ammo.


??? I'm confused

beatledog7
January 28, 2013, 08:38 PM
If you read the law. It is illegal to reload your own ammo.

I hope you'll elaborate. Seems like there are an awful lot of reloaders who openly talk about doing it and dozens of vendors who ship related items all over the country without being arrested.

4v50 Gary
January 28, 2013, 08:41 PM
While it is definitely not illegal to reload ammunition, selling it to another probably requires a FFL. Someone correct if I'm wrong please.

Jorg Nysgerrig
January 29, 2013, 01:18 AM
If you read the law. It is illegal to reload your own ammo.
Exactly which law is that?

gc70
January 29, 2013, 01:39 AM
From the ATF's website (http://atf.gov/firearms/faq/manufacturers.html#ammo-reloading):

Q: Is a person who reloads ammunition required to be licensed as a manufacturer?

Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit.

No, if the person reloads only for personal use.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a) (i) and 923(a), 27 CFR 478.41]

HighExpert
January 29, 2013, 06:47 PM
This is where they can get you. The law says for profit or livelihood. So I should be able to load them at cost? The ATF told me no. If there is money or services received in the transaction at all it requires an FFl. So I asked, "Suppose I give them away?" They said it was not specifically prohibited, but they would "frown on the action". I don't have the time or the money to find out if they are serious.

Frank Ettin
January 29, 2013, 07:02 PM
Remember that you don't need to make a profit to be "engaged in business." People go into business all the time and wind up not making money. It's not that they're not engaged in business; it's just that they're not doing it too well.

slamfirev10
January 29, 2013, 07:31 PM
I'll teach a friend to reload, and walk them through the steps with components that they have purchased, on my equipment, as long as its their hand on the handle.

i've done it this way too

NormB
January 29, 2013, 07:44 PM
"for the purpose of livelihood and profit."

This is really specific. If your purpose is simply to sell enough reloads to buy components to make more and you are NOT "making a living" doing it or even trying to, then no license is needed.

I've seen ATF opinion on this, but it's been years.

This is a LOT like having a class 03 FFL for Curios and Relics. Yes, you CAN sell your guns for the purpose of acquiring more guns, NOT to make a living. That's why there are C&R FFL holders at gunshows all over America selling their guns. They're not doing it for livelihood or profit, they're selling to have the money to buy more guns. ATF approves of this explicitly.

Guy I bought a Dillon RL550 press from a few years ago sold 9mm, 38 SPL and .45 acp out of his truck at the range (Ft. Meade, MRPC). He did it to buy more stuff to make more reloads. He bought an XL1050 press and REALLY cranked them out. He worked at NSA and no one ever mentioned this might be illegal.

Frank Ettin
January 29, 2013, 11:20 PM
...This is really specific. If your purpose is simply to sell enough reloads to buy components to make more and you are NOT "making a living" doing it or even trying to, then no license is needed....Not exactly. The statutory definition is at 18 USC 921(a)(21)(B), emphasis added:(21) The term “engaged in the business” means—

(A)..........

(B) as applied to a manufacturer of ammunition, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing ammunition as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the ammunition manufactured;... The operative concepts are (1) devoting time, attention and labor; (2) doing so regularly as a trade or business; and (3) intending to make money.

"Livelihood" simply means (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/livelihood):1: means of support or subsistence

Nothing in the statutory definition of "engaged in the business" requires that it be one's only business or means of support. It could be a side business, a secondary business or one of several ways you have of bringing money into the household. What matters is that you're doing it regularly to make money. It doesn't matter what you're spending the money on. It doesn't matter if you're using the money you make from selling reloads to buy groceries or to buy more reloading components (thus freeing more money from other sources to buy groceries with).

...I've seen ATF opinion on this, but it's been years....Looks like you need to find it, because you apparently badly misunderstand the law.

Skylerbone
January 30, 2013, 01:09 AM
No, if the person reloads only for personal use.

That's all that really matters, only, as in without exception.

NormB
January 30, 2013, 01:33 PM
I respectfully disagree, counselor Ettin.

"principal objective of livelihood and profit "

is STILL the operative phrase here. All other terms of legal art being fungible, the common law concepts of "livelihood" and "profit" are fairly well outlined both in Federal Code (IRS at a minimum) and shouldn't be in conflict with ATF regulation.

I'll dig around. I don't think I misunderstood anything. If I come up with the letter I'll post it here. IF I'm wrong, I'll apologize whole-heartedly.

Frank Ettin
January 30, 2013, 08:52 PM
...the common law concepts of "livelihood" and "profit" are fairly well outlined both in Federal Code (IRS at a minimum) and shouldn't be in conflict with ATF regulation...Exactly where, in exactly what terms, for exactly what purposes, and how is that relevant to this question?

Indeed, see Perrin v. United States, 444 U.S. 37 (United States Supreme Court, 1979), at 42:...A fundamental canon of statutory construction is that, unless otherwise defined, words will be interpreted as taking their ordinary, contemporary, common meaning...

Of course, the place to look for insight into this sort of question is case law. I haven't found any reported federal appellate cases dealing with manufacturing ammunition, but there are a number dealing with dealing in firearms.

So, for example, the Third Circuit, in upholding a conviction of dealing in firearms without a license noted (U.S. v. Tyson, 653 F.3d 192 (3rd Cir., 2011), at 200-201, emphasis added):...By the statute's terms, then, a defendant engages in the business of dealing in firearms when his principal motivation is economic (i.e., “obtaining livelihood” and “profit”) and he pursues this objective through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms. Palmieri, 21 F.3d at 1268 (stating that “economic interests” are the “principal purpose,” and “repetitiveness” is “the modus operandi ”). Although the quantity and frequency of sales are obviously a central concern, so also are (1) the location of the sales, (2) the conditions under which the sales occurred, (3) the defendant's behavior before, during, and after the sales, (4) the price charged for the weapons and the characteristics of the firearms sold, and (5) the intent of the seller at the time of the sales. Id. (explaining that “the finder of fact must examine the intent of the actor and all circumstances surrounding the acts alleged to constitute engaging in business”). As is often the case in such analyses, the importance of any one of these considerations is subject to the idiosyncratic nature of the fact pattern presented...

And the Fifth Circuit noted (United States v. Brenner (5th. Cir., 2012, No. 11-50432, slip opinion), at 5-6):...the jury must examine all circumstances surrounding the transaction, without the aid of a "bright-line rule". United States v. Palmieri, 21 F.3d 1265, 1269 (3d Cir.), vacated on other grounds, 513 U.S. 957 (1994). Relevant circumstances include: "the quantity and frequency of sales"; the "location of the sales"; "conditions under which the sales occurred"; "defendant's behavior before, during, and after the sales"; "the price charged"; "the characteristics of the firearms sold"; and, "the intent of the seller at the time of the sales". Tyson, 653 F.3d at 201.

The Sixth Circuit noted (United States v. Gray (6th Cir., 2012, slip opinion), at 8):...However, "a defendant need not deal in firearms as his primary business for conviction." United States v. Manthey, 92 F. App'x 291, 297 (6th Cir. 2004)....

And in upholding Gray's conviction the Sixth Circuit also noted (Gray, at 8-9):...We have previously held that evidence was sufficient to support a conviction under § 922(a)(1)(A) where it showed (1) that the defendant frequented flea markets and gun shows where he displayed and sold guns; (2) that the defendant offered to sell guns to confidential informants on multiple occasions and actually sold them three different guns on two different occasions; (3) and...that the defendant bought and sold guns for profit. See United States v. Orum, 106 F. App'x 972, 974 (6th Cir. 2004)...

In affirming a conviction of dealing in firearms without a license, the Ninth Circuit stated (U.S. v. Breier, 813 F.2d 212 (C.A.9 (Cal.), 1987), at 213-214):...Courts have fashioned their own definitions of the term. For example, we have previously stated "that where transactions of sale, purchase or exchange of firearms are regularly entered into in expectation of profit, the conduct amounts to engaging in business." United States v. Van Buren, 593 F.2d 125, 126 (9th Cir.1979) (per curiam). In United States v. Wilmoth, 636 F.2d 123 (5th Cir. Unit A 1981), the Fifth Circuit stated that to prove the status of the accused as one engaged in the business of dealing in firearms, "the Government must show a greater degree of activity than the occasional sale of a hobbyist." Id. at 125. "It is enough to prove that the accused has guns on hand or is ready and able to procure them for the purpose of selling them from time to time to such persons as might be accepted as customers." Id.; accord United States v. Carter, 801 F.2d 78, 82 (2d Cir.), cert. denied, --- U.S. ----, 107 S.Ct. 657, 93 L.Ed.2d 712 (1986); United States v. Burgos, 720 F.2d 1520, 1527 n. 8 (11th Cir.1983)....

Based on those cases I'd have to say that the guy you mentioned in post 16 who:...sold 9mm, 38 SPL and .45 acp out of his truck at the range (Ft. Meade, MRPC). He did it to buy more stuff to make more reloads. He bought an XL1050 press and REALLY cranked them out....had something to worry about. He might have worked at NSA, but NSA staff wouldn't necessarily be expected to be familiar with federal firearms law.

DM~
January 30, 2013, 10:02 PM
I carried the BATF ammo mfg license for quite a few years, as i reloaded and sold the reloads. I also sold NEW ammo that i loaded.

I also went to BATF seminars, and "I" was told by an ATF agent at one of those seminars, that it was NOT legal to reload for someone else, even if you gave them the ammo. IF anyone other than the one that reloaded the ammo was going to shoot it, then THEY had to load it or help you reload that ammo.

I assume a BATF agent giving an BATF seminar would know the law, but in any case, they sure as heck will be the ones investigating you if there's a problem on down the road with that ammo!

DM

gc70
January 31, 2013, 01:01 PM
Regardless of what a particular government agent said, you can read the law [18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(21)(B) (http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/44/921), 18 U.S.C. § 922(a)(1)(B) (http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/44/922) andd 18 U.S.C. § 922(a) (http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/44/923)], which is very straightforward.

DJW
January 31, 2013, 01:25 PM
No wonder this country is messed up. 22 comments all idiotic! I have been reloading for myself for over 50 yrs. and have never heard such foolishness. All you jailhouse lawyers need to go back to whatever hole you crawled out of and STFU. This ranks as the dumbest thread I have seen in many a year.

Frank Ettin
January 31, 2013, 02:03 PM
No wonder this country is messed up. 22 comments all idiotic! I have been reloading for myself for over 50 yrs. and have never heard such foolishness. All you jailhouse lawyers need to go back to whatever hole you crawled out of and STFU. This ranks as the dumbest thread I have seen in many a year. [1] I'm a real lawyer and practiced law successfully for over 30 years.

[2] Perhaps one reason you find this foolish is that you don't understand what the thread is about. Perhaps you need to learn to read more carefully.

[3] This thread has absolutely nothing to do with reloading for yourself. This thread is about reloading and selling the reloaded ammunition you manufacture. It can in fact be a federal crime to do so without proper license, and conviction can get you a length term in a federal prison plus the associated lifetime loss of gun rights.

[4] Also you should be aware that we have rules about language and demeanor on this board. Your language and insulting remarks are out of line.

4season
January 31, 2013, 02:31 PM
No wonder this country is messed up. 22 comments all idiotic! I have been reloading for myself for over 50 yrs. and have never heard such foolishness. All you jailhouse lawyers need to go back to whatever hole you crawled out of and STFU. This ranks as the dumbest thread I have seen in many a year.
So from one post you state that this is dumbest thread? Maybe you should learn to read the whole thread before passing judgement.

DJW
January 31, 2013, 02:36 PM
I still think it is dumb to beat a dead horse..........why does it need to be stated that many times that selling reloads requires all kinds of insurance and permitting? It is generally understood that there are certain requirements for selling reloads. Just keep beating that horse.

Frank Ettin
January 31, 2013, 03:31 PM
I still think it is dumb to beat a dead horse..........why does it need to be stated that many times that selling reloads requires all kinds of insurance and permitting? It is generally understood that there are certain requirements for selling reloads....If someone asks the question, he's going to get an answer. And if you think this thread is too dumb to be worth your trouble, why don't you just stay out of it?

Skylerbone
January 31, 2013, 03:53 PM
If I may, as a community of enthusiasts that exists to support and assist one another on the common topics associated with firearms, THR is meant to appeal to a rather broad audience. Some will find reviews of a particular video game informative while others seek recipes for an accurate rifle load.

When a thread is begun with an inquiry pertaining to a specific topic it is generally understood that some will find it of interest and others will not. That is the point at which, in keeping with THR policy, those disinterested should seek other amusement. As our specific example is not one of Tastes great or Less filling but rather the ramifications of manufacturing items expressly regulated by BATFE it bears repeating in the course of discussion until such point as all involved can distill truth from opinion.

Perhaps we have arrived at that point, perhaps not but to disturb active discourse to bad mouth members is reprehensible to say the least and uncalled for. If it pleases you, DJW, I am certain that just at this moment there is an active thread pitting Glocks against another well known make of pistol. That should be a hot one for your sentiments, regardless of which side you choose.

Twmaster
January 31, 2013, 04:07 PM
What I find amazing and amusing is how you folks try to use weasel words to bypass the intent of the law.

It's kinda obvious what the intention of the law means.

If you intend to get some sort of gain from making and distributing ammo you need to be licensed.

Does this mean every person doing just that on a small scale is going to get a visit from the BATF? No. But geez, why bait the bear and twist words to justify that?

Good grief.

HighExpert
January 31, 2013, 05:54 PM
Exactly TWMaster. We all know the government applies selective enforcement. I do my best to not be selected. It is much cheaper that way.

Frank Ettin
January 31, 2013, 06:05 PM
Exactly TWMaster. We all know the government applies selective enforcement. I do my best to not be selected. It is much cheaper that way.

Actually the term is "prosecutorial discretion." It's a matter of how the prosecutor's office decides to allocate limited resources.

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