NO GUNS signs


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Jim K
January 28, 2013, 09:43 PM
It seems to me that there is a tricky legal point on "NO GUNS" or equivalent signs.

If a business puts up a "no guns" sign and does not enforce it (how?) and someone comes in with a gun and kills or injures someone on the premises, is the business liable? They can't claim they didn't consider the possibility of such an event because their sign clearly says they did. Yet, by taking no steps to enforce their rule (by metal detectors, armed guards, etc.) they accept responsibility if the sign is ignored and are liable for what happens.

If they post no signs, then they can claim that their customers have always been peaceful and they have no liabililty for an unlikely and unforeseeable occurrence.

Jim

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gator1gear
January 28, 2013, 10:26 PM
In a similar situation, I rescued a mutt puppy that I watched somebody chunk out of a car window. After a while, she became, let's say OVERLY protective. I was planning to grab a couple of Beware of Dog signs, and my lawyer friend informed me that if I put those signs out, a court of law could point out that I knew that the dog was a potential problem and it would be worse than not having a sign at all.

creeper1956
January 28, 2013, 10:59 PM
I've found a good amount of information regarding CC, the law and liability at opencarry.org "the law library" (http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?137-The-Law-Library). For example, here's a post regarding Wisconsin liability. A bit old, but directly related to the OP question, Wisconsin business owners liability (http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?97657-Posting-no-guns-signs-carries-liability). Scroll to the second post... and then of course, the usual back and forth. :D

C

M2 Carbine
January 28, 2013, 11:01 PM
I've had this sign in the front window for probably over 25 years.

Within limits it is legal, in Texas, to use deadly force to protect or recover property, especially at night.

http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x464/Bell-helicopter-407/Warning-1.jpg

Some say the sign indicates that I want to shoot someone and this could be brought up at the Grand Jury hearing.

Since we (Texans) don't take kindly to criminals on our property I don't believe any such arguments would hold a lot of weight but actually I do have a (good) reason for the sign.

I post it not so much as a warning but as a PUBLIC SERVICE.

You see, since criminals know they are taking quite a chance of being shot on private property, I posted this sign as a last minute reminder of their foolishness. Maybe it will remind the criminal of what a stupid thing they are doing and they will beat it away from here. Who knows, maybe the sign will even drive home the fact that they must have a death wish to be in this line of work and encourage them to get a honest job.

Yes sir, for sure, a public service.:)



.

gator1gear
January 28, 2013, 11:50 PM
Love it!

gunsandreligion
January 29, 2013, 06:09 PM
I love that sign

David White
January 29, 2013, 06:16 PM
178699
I like this one myself!
178700

Zombiphobia
January 29, 2013, 06:21 PM
I ignore them, aware of the possible repercussions.

Someone trying to go in and bludgeon everyone to death with a lead pipe isn't going to pay attention to the sign, why should I?

mgkdrgn
January 30, 2013, 07:52 AM
This one is up inside my business

http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/rr138/mgkdrgn/ProCCWSign.jpg

This one is up outside:

http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/rr138/mgkdrgn/front-sight-yard-sign.jpg

Art Eatman
January 30, 2013, 10:16 AM
Okay, enough with the cutesie signs.

The pertinent question, seems to me, is whether anybody has any real knowledge of a shooting event where the business establishment was held responsible--sign or no sign. (I'm not talking about drunks and bar shootings, but about some outsider, robber, maybe, coming in.)

Houser52
January 30, 2013, 11:06 AM
There have been several shootings around Charlotte over the past few years where in each case the business owner was justified when they returned fire and either wounded or killed the criminal. It was reported on the local news each time but there was no mention of a sign.

I was friends with an older man who owned a convenience store. When CCW was first passed in NC he put up a "No concealed weapons allowed on this property" sign. I was a CCW holder and asked him about his sign. He said " there's only one SOB that will have a gun in my store and that's me". I just smiled and let it go at that. He was later robbed several times and guns were involved. I guess the crooks couldn't read.

Nasty
January 30, 2013, 11:08 AM
shucks...I was enjoying the signs.

mjw930
January 30, 2013, 03:04 PM
He was later robbed several times and guns were involved. I guess the crooks couldn't read.

No, they could read quite well. The sign told them they would probably not face force inside that store since CCW was forbidden.

It's about as stupid as "Gun Free Zone" signs and I'm constantly amazed the gun grabbers don't understand posting a no guns allowed sign is like a neon banner for criminals.......

Manco
January 30, 2013, 09:02 PM
If a business puts up a "no guns" sign and does not enforce it (how?) and someone comes in with a gun and kills or injures someone on the premises, is the business liable?

In an ideal ethical sense, I think that they are responsible for the safety of their patrons in such cases, but legally, I'm not sure. Wouldn't it be something if one of those ambulance-chasing lawyers filing lawsuits on behalf of the Aurora shooting victims ends up doing us a favor? :D

David White
January 30, 2013, 09:07 PM
It's about as stupid as "Gun Free Zone" signs and I'm constantly amazed the gun grabbers don't understand posting a no guns allowed sign is like a neon banner for criminals.......

Our represented officials are not "wise men" by any stretch of the imagination.

They can't seem to grasp that "gun free zones" are killing fields for crooks.

mgkdrgn
January 31, 2013, 10:38 AM
Okay, enough with the cutesie signs.

The pertinent question, seems to me, is whether anybody has any real knowledge of a shooting event where the business establishment was held responsible--sign or no sign. (I'm not talking about drunks and bar shootings, but about some outsider, robber, maybe, coming in.)
Nope, there are not any. Shopkeepers are not responsible for the criminal acts of others.

OptimusPrime
January 31, 2013, 11:37 PM
McDonald's was sued after the San Ysidro massacre in 1984 but was not found liable. They had no responsibility for the actions of the madman and nothing they could have reasonably done (like signs) would have changed a thing.

Jim K
February 2, 2013, 09:43 PM
Interesting thread, and I am glad I started it.

As a general principle, a store owner would not be responsible for the actions of others. My point was that when the store owner specifically recognizes a danger to his customers, posts a sign recognizing that danger, and then takes a passive attitude, doing nothing else to prevent the danger, is his responsibility ended, or does he have a responsibililty, having recognized a danger, to take positive action to prevent it.

Say a store owner is having sewer problems and workers have dug a deep hole in his floor. Does he need to post a sign warning of the hole? If he does post a sign on the wall saying "don't fall in a hole" is that enough, or is he obligated to put up barriers, ropes, or some positive and specific means of keeping people from falling into that hole?

Jim

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