Ssssh! Has Black Powder dodged a bullet?


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SleazyRider
January 29, 2013, 08:45 AM
In this latest wave of anti-gun hysteria that has gripped the nation, how is it that the "black powder loophole" (as, I predict, Piers will eventually call it) has gone unnoticed? Even in the Evil Empire State, where I cannot go into Manhattan and buy a 22-ounce soda, I can still call Cabelas and have a six-shooter in my hand by the end of the week without a background check, registration, or a requisite safety class. Low 6-shot capacity? Why not carry 3, 4, or even 5 six-shooters on my person just like Jesse did? Low power? A .44 caliber 1858 Remington pointing in my direction would certainly get my attention. I don't get it.
I'm not complaining, mind you, just ruminating on the arbitrary nature of the proposed legislation; and wondering if it will generate a new interest in Black Powder shooting and collecting. I hope not, because it will eventually spell the end of this freedom as well.

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Smokin'Joe
January 29, 2013, 08:56 AM
In Massachusetts I can purchase a Black Powder gun as easily as buying a fishing pole. Itís the ammunition that requires a permit to possess. Getting caught with ammo of any kind without a permit can ruin your day.

midwestrider01
January 29, 2013, 09:38 AM
man, kinda sounds like your laws up there are tighter than a gnat's a**. Here in Kansas, we can still open-carry any weapon, as long as the safety is on and it's holstered on your hip or in clear view of surrounding people. Concealed-carry classes still need taken for you to wear one inside your shirt/jacket.

i decided to view this thread because i have a black powder 1851 Confederate Navy revolver that was bought from Cabelas that i carry on me when i go to town. its not a very good self defense gun. but like you said, the .44cal barrel pointed at you will surely get your attention..

zimmerstutzen
January 29, 2013, 11:35 AM
I understand NY recently passed a law that any firearm with a bayonet lug needs to be registered. Including 150 year old Zouave muskets, and others

Olmontanaboy
January 29, 2013, 12:08 PM
I doubt it, the anti gun crowd want them ALL and that includes muzzleloaders. We must all know that if one kind of firearm is BAD in their eyes so are they all. These people will not rest untill ALL guns in private hands are taken away. We must all stick togeather on this or we will fall one at a time.

Crawdad1
January 29, 2013, 12:21 PM
In my opinion the Government would wish and hope and prey for people to buy MORE black powder guns.

Olmontanaboy
January 29, 2013, 12:23 PM
In my opinion the Government would wish and hope and prey for people to buy MORE black powder guns.

What makes you think that?

Patocazador
January 29, 2013, 01:27 PM
In my opinion the Government would wish and hope and prey for people to buy MORE black powder guns.
I don't know if it was intended as a pun or if it was a typo but "prey" on us is exactly what the %$#@! government will do if they get our firearms.

Cosmoline
January 29, 2013, 01:28 PM
Some of them have poked at this before at the state level. But they know any attempt to do so now would open them up to ridicule.

An attack on smoke poles is likely to be on the basis that felons can buy them without a background check. etc etc. But that powder is kept dry until they can advance the current agenda. If they only knew the awesome power of the dark side!

JN01
January 29, 2013, 05:31 PM
They are weapons of (Revolutionary/Civil) war. They must be eliminated. It's for the children. :rolleyes:

EljaySL
January 29, 2013, 05:38 PM
Give them time. They'll go after whatever they think might work, or might lay the groundwork for later. Right now going after muzzleloaders would make them look silly, and it would undercut their attempts to make the 2nd amendment all about hunting. If they succeed in banning item X then next year it will be item Y or Z as convenient. If somebody with a scoped rifle shoots a bunch of people, suddenly it's going to be, why do you need a "sniper rifle" and all scoped centerfire rifles will be banned (aka "deer rifles"). If somebody put a bunch of pipe bombs at, say, a high school graduation and blew up the graduating class then it will be why is it legal to buy black powder. Maybe they'll compromise California-style and you'll be allowed one pound at a time. Of course the paperwork to sell it will be even more intense so most states won't even have a dealer, and obviously we can't let people mail order it, that would be crazy...

DeepSouth
January 29, 2013, 05:39 PM
Deleted

Cosmoline
January 29, 2013, 05:49 PM
Loose lips!

Busyhands94
January 29, 2013, 06:08 PM
The reason they haven't tried to go after them (for the most part, some states are run by corrupt hardasses) is that a BP gun is considered "politically correct. Think of it this way, they don't attack single shot rifles (unless they are .50 caliber centerfire) and non-tactical shotguns. I am fixing to buy an H&R Topper, I doubt they'd even think a shotgun could kill somebody. After all, it only holds one shot and is slow to reload being a single shot? Yeah right, I've taken second shots in Wobble trap with a single shot. They aren't slow.

The general attitude by our enemies is they think that BP guns are a horribly inefficient weapon only suited for hunting and stuff like that because they don't take metallic cartridges.

Just my thoughts on this. I'd hate to see them cracking down on BP, but if they do I can still make my own powder, cap and ball.

SleazyRider
January 29, 2013, 06:20 PM
I've yet to hear the argument that since black powder firearms prevailed at the time the Bill of Rights was drafted, that the keeping and bearing of arms applies only to muzzleloaders. But in effect, in New York anyway, for all intents and purposes this could become a reality if we continue at our present pace.

SleazyRider
January 29, 2013, 06:24 PM
... they don't attack single shot rifles (unless they are .50 caliber centerfire) and non-tactical shotguns.

That is because, as was revealed by CNN today, the President is quite the trap shooter and regularly shoots trap at Camp David. See? He's one of us after all! :scrutiny:

vagunmonkey
January 29, 2013, 06:40 PM
I've yet to hear the argument that since black powder firearms prevailed at the time the Bill of Rights was drafted, that the keeping and bearing of arms applies only to muzzleloaders. But in effect, in New York anyway, for all intents and purposes this could become a reality if we continue at our present pace.

This will be the "great compromise". We keep the muzzle loaders as was intended in the 2A and they get everything else...:banghead:

Busyhands94
January 29, 2013, 06:50 PM
WOOOOAHH... back up the truck! He is NOT one of us and I guarantee you he NEVER will be. Trust me, I know a trap shooter when I see one and Husein is NOT BY ANY STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION. This is all very sudden that he pulled this "I shoot skeet all the time" lie out of his hat just to make gun owners feel safer. If he really were a trap shooter he'd be putting his half smoked joints in a homebrew waterproof container made from an empty 20 gauge and 16 gauge hull.

As far as a war on BP guns? I can't see it, there just isn't enough shooting with them and they don't look scary or modern enough for a gun grabber to want to ban them. Sure, a single shot Topper in 12 gauge looks like a hunting shotgun. But I can shoot a single VERY fast, especially if it's got an ejector. I would trust my trusty Remington NMA over a 9mm any day of the week. And if it came down to it I'd feed just fine defending my life with a Remington. It is by no means inferior in the right hands.

MCgunner
January 29, 2013, 07:01 PM
An attack on smoke poles is likely to be on the basis that felons can buy them without a background check. etc etc. But that powder is kept dry until they can advance the current agenda. If they only knew the awesome power of the dark side!

This, one bite out of the apple at a time.

Texas is going the other direction, introducing a state law (it's probably more symbolic than not) that would prevent state authorities from enforcing any draconian, unconstitutional federal firearms laws passed in the future. They're talking about ONE that would allow for open carry, which we don't have, but you'd have to have a CHL to do it, which I have. If open carry were to get popular, I could see occasionally open carrying my 5.5" Remmy just for the fun of it. It IS as effective as any .38 special +P from a single action, IMHO, probably a bit closer to a hot .44 special, but I only load 30 grains under a round ball in it for accuracy. I mainly want open carry rules so that I can carry my .357 magnum DA or my .45ACP on the belt OWB under a T and not worry about "flashing". I don't like IWB at all and usually carry a pocket 9x19 or ultralite .38 special. But, sure would be cool to go to town with the Remmy once in a while. :D

I think in states where it's possible, open carry SHOULD be practiced by all that can just as a political statement. I realize in many states with open carry, carrying so might cause panic of the populace. :D I'd love to see a few folks strolling down sidewalks with cap and ball Remmies or Colts even if only with cartridge conversion cylinders. Decorative, I suppose, but not ineffective and, well, decorative is more important in this little towns around here. LOL

I've long seen the irony of being able to order a conversion cylinder or 4 for a Remmy and the Remmy and not having to go through an FFL. But, I hope it stays that way. It will until some nut shoots up a school with a '58 I guess.

See, thing is, BP is off the radar because it's enthusiasts that play with BP. When BP suddenly becomes a viable option for the crooks, that gives the media and the politicians the fodder to go further. But, there is no shortage of autos and cartridge revolvers out there and the crooks will find them long after they are "outlawed". It's just one more law to break.

MCgunner
January 29, 2013, 07:11 PM
Oh, I got a stainless ROA stolen once. I THINK I know who did it, but couldn't get the cops to do anything about him. The guy was an idiot, though, dead now, snorting gasoline. :rolleyes: The flames of hell no doubt caught that gas. Anyway, I used to wonder what that guy thought trying to load the gun. I mean, I doubt he has a clue, an IQ of about 50. Wonder if he ever went and bought some .44 mag (or stole) and sat around trying to figure out how it loaded? http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/lachen/laughing-smiley-001.gif

Fiv3r
January 29, 2013, 07:41 PM
BP guns are too complicated for your average criminal to use. Short of branishing, most bad guys aren't going to go to the trouble of learning what components makes a hog leg fire.

It would take a felon skirting the law shooting up a place with 3 or 4 pistols to get enough wind in that sail. Yes, there is a push against our rights at the present, but most grabbers k ow that they are going to need reach far and take what bits of sand stick to their fingers.

I do not want to give up my beloved poodle shooter or my high cap semiautomatics, however I am quite glad that my antiquated and "out dated" Holy Black revolver isn't raising any eyebrows just yet. Hell, I just stuffed all my firearms in storage while I get my house ready to put on the market...all but my daily carry 1911, my beloved Ithaca 37, and my 5.5"'58.

Everything else can collect dust for a bit, and if you twisted my arm, i could get along just fine with just my BP revolver if the shotgun and 1911 had to take a nap as well:)

MCgunner
January 29, 2013, 07:49 PM
Hell, I just stuffed all my firearms in storage while I get my house ready to put on the market...all but my daily carry 1911, my beloved Ithaca 37, and my 5.5"'58.

Good luck. I just went through this as we sold the house in Corpus to free up that mortgage to get THIS house and land. This place was a HUD foreclosure we got for CHEAP, but it took 4 months to close, right during hunting season, and we were staying in our 18 ft travel trailer with two cats. Good luck. Glad all THAT is over for me. Hope you ain't trying to close on a HUD foreclosure. I GUESS it was worth it, but GOD what a nightmare! I do love our new place, though, with shooting range right out the back door. :D

SleazyRider
January 29, 2013, 08:37 PM
Texas is going the other direction, introducing a state law (it's probably more symbolic than not) that would prevent state authorities from enforcing any draconian, unconstitutional federal firearms laws passed in the future. ...

It's no wonder folks say "God bless Texas!"

raindog
January 29, 2013, 09:57 PM
In Massachusetts I can purchase a Black Powder gun as easily as buying a fishing pole. Itís the ammunition that requires a permit to possess. Getting caught with ammo of any kind without a permit can ruin your day.

Wait...what is defined as "ammunition" for a black powder gun?

The black powder itself?
Minie balls?

Olmontanaboy
January 29, 2013, 10:09 PM
To anyone who thinks "I'm safe I only own black powder guns and I can buy them anytime over the counter". For years now, the state of New Jersey has ruled that all black powder guns, including muzzloading shotguns, rifles, pistols, BB guns and SLINGSHOTS, I repeat SLINGSHOTS are indeed firearms in the eyes of NJ law and subject to the same laws as any other gun. A firearms ID Card is required to purchase any rifle or shotgun, this can take over a year to obtain. Once you have obtained that card from the cheif of police only then can you apply for a seperate pistol permit to purchase a handgun, this is good for only one gun, a seperate permit is required for every handgun you want to buy. Carrying any of these on your person or in your car or truck even if unloaded, without the proper paperwork and going to or from an approved range can land you in jail, facing financial ruin and prison time.
Many of the guns on the contraband list of the antigunners are already banned in the Garden State. I remember when the law went into effect, you had four choises:
1. Turn then it. with NO compensation. No grandfathering in.
2. Have them altered by the state to render then unfireable (Welded to crap) at your own cost.
3. Remove them from the State (What most did).
4. Apply for a class 3 permit for eack now banned gun. NJ has never approved any class 3 permits to anyone but police and very few of them.

Some of the guns banned were:
M1 Carbine, AR-15 and clones, M1A's, any handgun designed for a magazine of over 10 rounds. and many more including shotguns.

Here is how they work it. As far as I know they never sent the NJ State Police after anyone's guns, BUT If they do catch you in possession of said contraband for any reason (house fire or any reason they might enter your home) you are done for.
Make no mistake, they want them all and it is not about safety, it's about subjecting us to their will. I don't know where this is going to end but were in for a rough time of it.
I remember when this new law passed I had friends that worked
in several gunshops and they told me the State Police came in with a portable copy machine and made copys of the yellow purchaser forums

(I fogot # of this form) of all the now banned firearms that were legally purchase in the past. Totally against the law but it did not matter, they did i anyway

Smokin'Joe
January 29, 2013, 10:11 PM
Everything. For Black Powder caps, balls OR powder. For cartridge guns just possessing empty brass is a violation.

MCgunner
January 29, 2013, 10:19 PM
To anyone who thinks "I'm safe I only own black powder guns and I can buy them anytime over the counter". For years now, the state of New Jersey has ruled that all black powder guns, including muzzloading shotguns, rifles, pistols, BB guns and SLINGSHOTS, I repeat SLINGSHOTS are indeed firearms in the eyes of NJ law and subject to the same laws as any other gun. A firearms ID Card is required to purchase any rifle or shotgun, this can take over a year to obtain. Once you have obtained that card from the cheif of police only then can you apply for a seperate pistol permit to purchase a handgun, this is good for only one gun, a seperate permit is required for every handgun you want to buy. Carrying any of these on your person or in your car or truck even if unloaded, without the proper paperwork and going to or from an approved range can land you in jail, facing financial ruin and prison time.
Many of the guns on the contraband list of the antigunners are already banned in the Garden State. I remember when the law went into effect, you had four choises:
1. Turn then it. with NO compensation. No grandfathering in.
2. Have them altered by the state to render then unfireable (Welded to crap) at your own cost.
3. Remove them from the State (What most did).
4. Apply for a class 3 permit for eack now banned gun. NJ has never approved any class 3 permits to anyone but police and very few of them.

Some of the guns banned were:
M1 Carbine, AR-15 and clones, M1A's, any handgun designed for a magazine of over 10 rounds. and many more including shotguns.

Here is how they work it. As far as I know they never sent the NJ State Police after anyone's guns, BUT If they do catch you in possession of said contraband for any reason (house fire or any reason they might enter your home) you are done for.
Make no mistake, they want them all and it is not about safety, it's about subjecting us to their will. I don't know where this is going to end but were in for a rough time of it.
I remember when this new law passed I had friends that worked
in several gunshops and they told me the State Police came in with a portable copy machine and made copys of the yellow purchaser forums

(I fogot # of this form) of all the now banned firearms that were legally purchase in the past. Totally against the law but it did not matter, they did i anyway




Form 4473

You forgot a fifth option...bury in the back 40 in a water proof container like PVC with end caps glued to it. :D

Me, I'd just quit my job and move to Texas, but that's just me. I'm already here, so I ain't that worried about New Jersey. :D

Olmontanaboy
January 29, 2013, 10:29 PM
Me, I'd just quit my job and move to Texas, but that's just me. I'm already here, so I ain't that worried about New Jersey.

LOL, which is exactly what I did only I returned to my home in Montana, but I did spent some time in Texas and I loved it. I'll be leaving NJ soon for parts unkown. I hope. ;)

SleazyRider
January 29, 2013, 11:02 PM
You'll miss the pizza.

MCgunner
January 29, 2013, 11:52 PM
LOL, which is exactly what I did only I returned to my home in Montana, but I did spent some time in Texas and I loved it. I'll be leaving NJ soon for parts unkown. I hope.

Well, Montana is just a cold Texas...er...well...Texas is a hot Montana. Guess it depends on the time of year. Sure prefer the scenery up there, well, but if you go west, we got nice scenery, too, if a little more arid. :D

Big Al Mass
January 30, 2013, 03:07 AM
Mispost.

Big Al Mass
January 30, 2013, 03:09 AM
Everything. For Black Powder caps, balls OR powder. For cartridge guns just possessing empty brass is a violation.
This is exactly why I have not been able to shoot my new Colt yet (that and lack of transport to a range), and it really upsets me.

swathdiver
January 30, 2013, 03:39 AM
Seems felons in other states have better, lawful access to antique firearms than regular folks living in those communistic states. I'd be inclined to move.

tpelle
January 30, 2013, 10:55 AM
Just keep in mind that just because you shoot "antique" arms, and don't own any of those evil hi-cap black guns, that you're safe. The gun-grabbers understand divide and conquer. If they can ban assault weapon because all of the trap shooters, Cowboy Action shooters, and deer and rabbit hunters let them, the next thing they'll go after are the deer.....err....sniper rifles. Then the Sporting Clays....err.....streetsweepers. Finally they'll get around to the black powder guys.

Foto Joe
January 30, 2013, 12:07 PM
Apparently there was an incident last week in Corpus Christi at a theatre with an apparent "flash" of a concealed weapon. The theatre was evacuated and I would assume that the person who was carrying was descreet enough to not announce and set himself up for a gun violation. I love Texas but when we're down here it does kind of get to me that I have to constantly be aware that the barrel of a 1911 slipping out from under my shirt could get me into trouble if the wrong person sees it.

As far as the Black Powder and the ignorance of our government this is one time where I really appreciate their inability to remember and learn from history.

pohill
January 30, 2013, 12:32 PM
Everything. For Black Powder caps, balls OR powder. For cartridge guns just possessing empty brass is a violation.

Where did you hear that possessing roundballs or empty brass is a violation?

wap41
January 30, 2013, 01:18 PM
loose lips sink ships

enine
January 30, 2013, 05:48 PM
I've already said if they pass an AWB I'm making a high capacity loading block and painting it black in protest.

mike.
January 30, 2013, 07:36 PM
Thank you.What is the point in bringing it up?

This is in response to to the "loose Lips" quote.

Dont understand why the OP brought it up

swathdiver
January 30, 2013, 07:36 PM
Just keep in mind that just because you shoot "antique" arms, and don't own any of those evil hi-cap black guns, that you're safe. The gun-grabbers understand divide and conquer. If they can ban assault weapon because all of the trap shooters, Cowboy Action shooters, and deer and rabbit hunters let them, the next thing they'll go after are the deer.....err....sniper rifles. Then the Sporting Clays....err.....streetsweepers. Finally they'll get around to the black powder guys.

Well put. The Statists will chip away at our rights a little at a time until there is nothing left. One day some will wake up and be told to turn in their single shot bb gun. I hope the country wakes up and throws them off well before then but don't see it happening in my lifetime.

Smokin'Joe
January 30, 2013, 07:59 PM
"Where did you hear that possessing roundballs or empty brass is a violation?" (In Massachusetts)

Many places. Try to buy lead balls without a permit. Can't be done. Take a look at this:

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=8&f=26&t=419751

pohill
January 30, 2013, 08:25 PM
They're just wrong. There's no law banning the purchase of roundballs or possessing empty brass cases without a permit. Powder, yeah and some places check your permit when you buy caps. But, if you know of the law, post a link.

Smokin'Joe
January 30, 2013, 08:34 PM
pohill, My friend. I just researched the issue and posted an interesting link that I found. Google it yourself and share with us what you find.

pohill
January 30, 2013, 08:35 PM
Sure, it's an interesting link but I'm looking for a law that says you cannot possess lead balls or empty brass casings in MA. I can't find it. If you can, then post a link.

I'm still looking. Lots of online posts saying you cannot have empty cases but no laws yet...

SleazyRider
January 30, 2013, 08:39 PM
"Loose lips"? Really? Do you really think the black powder regulations are privileged information, hidden from the scrutiny of our legislators and CNN?

If Piers Morgan brings this up on TV tomorrow as a result of this thread, you have my profound apologies!

Crawdad1
January 30, 2013, 09:01 PM
I just got a real education about New Jersey. I didn't think it was that bad there.

Olmontanaboy
January 30, 2013, 09:20 PM
New Jersey is the worst state. You do not have the right to self defence in your own home. The vile criminals are all felons and all carry guns in spite of the laws, and the law abiding unarmed citizens are prey. I lived here in the 1950's and it was a nice place, it's a liberal sewer now. Prison means nothing to these scum, they laugh at the cops and just visit with all their relatives in the joint when they get busted. It's the world turned upside down.

MCgunner
January 30, 2013, 09:37 PM
Wow, NJ does sound like a nightmare. Remind me to stay away. The company I retired from was based in NJ. Thank GOD they never wanted to transfer me there. I'd probably have quit, anyway. I ain't leavin' Texas for THAT. :rolleyes: Arizona, I could do Arizona. Yeah, it's hot, but it's a DRYYYYY heat. :D

pohill
January 30, 2013, 11:14 PM
Think about this - ObamaCare was based on the Massachusetts healthcare system - MassHealth. Obama and the MA governor are good friends. I really hope that MA gun laws do not spread to the rest of the country. I'm not talking about background checks and a limit on rounds in a mag - I'm talking about the guns you cannot legally own, and the fact that you gotta keep the guns you can own locked and secured in your own home. And there's nothing we can do about it. I used to belong to the NRA and GOAL, but they did nothing for MA residents - its a write-off state as far as gun laws.
So, hold on to your hats.

michaelbsc
January 31, 2013, 12:13 AM
Wow, NJ does sound like a nightmare. Remind me to stay away. The company I retired from was based in NJ. Thank GOD they never wanted to transfer me there. I'd probably have quit, anyway. I ain't leavin' Texas for THAT. :rolleyes: Arizona, I could do Arizona. Yeah, it's hot, but it's a DRYYYYY heat. :D

Hey, I did a two year stint in AZ. Just outside Phoenix. It's not a bad place at all. I could go back if necessary.

Foto Joe
January 31, 2013, 09:38 AM
Yeah, it's hot, but it's a DRYYYYY heat.

I can tell you that after living in western Arizona for 35 years, sooner or later you will get tired of using an oven mitt to open your car door. Also, you will NOT get used to it.

Although Arizona's politics have shifted once again to the right in the last decade it still holds an open border with California, the introduction of "Constitutional Carry" in the state is something that I found surprising and I hope it remains. I can say from experience that the political leanings of the state of California have in the past greatly influenced Arizona simply because so many of thier residents have moved to AZ, with a failing economy on the left coast that possibility still exists.

Our daughters still live in AZ and we visit once or twice per year but we definitely try to make sure that it is before the first of June and after the end of September.

MCgunner
January 31, 2013, 05:50 PM
I can tell you that after living in western Arizona for 35 years, sooner or later you will get tired of using an oven mitt to open your car door. Also, you will NOT get used to it.

Yeah, like an IDIOT, I rode my GoldWing out there one AUGUST. Riding down I10 from about Irran, Texas to Tucson was like sitting in front of a Kiln with the door open. I made it by squirting ice water from my cooler on my neck once in a while. I had on a summer jacket, mesh under the arms and across the back for flow. The air was so hot, I left the back zipped up, but the sleeves kept me from burning like over-cooked bacon. I would grab a shot of water now and then by opening my flip front helmet. Do NOT ride out there without a tinted wind screen, either. I've learned THAT over the years.

Best time to ride is spring out there, but I've done THAT before, too, and got into snow coming out of Alpine to Clifton. Ya just can't win sometimes. ROFL!

Yeah, it gets hot here, high 90s usually in summer, but at least we have SHADE. :D Now, down Corpus to the valley, well, you got 100+ AND 80 percent humidity, or as the weatherman in Corpus likes to put it, "air you can wear". :D And, there ain't much shade down there, either. Mesquite sux for shade. We did have a big avocado tree in the back yard, though.

YumaKid
February 3, 2013, 11:01 AM
(I know this is only drifitng further off-topic, but....)

MCgunner I have no clue how many former Devildogs have decided to stay in Yuma (the DEEP Southwestern corner of AZ) after they ended their terms in the Corps. But I know of at least 4 ret'd Gunny's, a retired Msgt, two former Corporals (one is our newly retired County Sheriff, the other is our newly elected County Sheriff), a retired Cpt (Harrier pilot, lives across the street from me), one former Station CO of MCAS-Yuma with chickens on his collar points, and a guy that retired as SSM at Pendleton.

Probably 20 times that many here in town, these are just the ones I know personally. Three of the four Gunny's have worked or still do work for the former Corporals at the Sheriff's Office; the 4th is in his 60's and "just retired". The MSgt works out at the Army Base north of town, the Scarrier driver is a schoolteacher, the Col. has worked for the Corps as a civilian, for the City, the County, and the State of Arizona and is now just "retired". The SgtMaj is in the Comms/Phone/Internet business (on the same crew as me).

A couple of the Gunny's can send me from Zero to Pi**ed Off in about 5.43 seconds; the other two are very good friends. The rest are guys that I have had the pleasure of meeting and am proud to call them friends.

They're from all over the country, Minnesota, Nebraska, and Missouri (one each of the Gunny's), the Top is from Iowa. The First Shirt is from Fresno CA; and thinks Yuma is a massive improvement. One of the Cpl's is from "back east"; the other from Montana,Wyoming... somewhere up there. Captain is from the West Coast, agrees with the SgtMaj.
Oh, Col Luckie? He's from Texas. Talks about going "back home"; but he likes it here too much.

One more thing to bring this closer to the Thread Topic: The new Sheriff Shoots SASS.

Lunie
February 6, 2013, 02:24 AM
In this latest wave of anti-gun hysteria that has gripped the nation, how is it that the "black powder loophole" (as, I predict, Piers will eventually call it) has gone unnoticed? Even in the Evil Empire State, where I cannot go into Manhattan and buy a 22-ounce soda, I can still call Cabelas and have a six-shooter in my hand by the end of the week without a background check, registration, or a requisite safety class. Low 6-shot capacity? Why not carry 3, 4, or even 5 six-shooters on my person just like Jesse did? Low power? A .44 caliber 1858 Remington pointing in my direction would certainly get my attention. I don't get it.
I'm not complaining, mind you, just ruminating on the arbitrary nature of the proposed legislation; and wondering if it will generate a new interest in Black Powder shooting and collecting. I hope not, because it will eventually spell the end of this freedom as well.
I know this thread has drifted waaaaaaay afield... So back to the OP.

I think that the status of BP arms is interesting. They can be purchased legally (in most places?) even by felons, and yet they are misused in only the rarest of circumstances. Criminals don't bother to acquire guns legally even when they have a viable option... Instead, they violate laws on possession of modern arms and then go on to break other laws. Who'd have thunk it, right?

Antique ignition platforms may well be the last to go, but the only sure way to protect the ownership of them is to protect ownership of all others. There is no safety in the soot; we have to protect modern arms or risk losing the old ones as well.

Be active, be vocal, and hold the line.

michaelbsc
February 6, 2013, 03:18 AM
They can be purchased legally (in most places?) even by felons.

I don't believe this is actually true. Black powder weapons are not federally regulated by the NFA, or the GCA, or subsequent acts. So there is no legal requirement for the vendor to check when selling them.

But that doesn't mean it's legal for a convicted felon to buy them. There's a subtle, but real, difference between those two. The felony laws of the state come in to play. There are other restrictions besides the ones you're looking at.

Much like its legal for you to buy a can of wasp spray, but technically it's illegal for you to use it as a defensive weapon, except as a weapon against wasps. The can says its a violation of federal law to use it in a manner other than in its intended purposes or some such wording. There's some specific mumbo jumbo.

The reason a professional drug store bandit doesn't want a Colt 1851 Sheriff's model is because a stolen Glock is probably the same price! (He just has a 5 day waiting period after he gets out of the big house, then he and the fence can go to the LGS with the stolen gun and fake IDs for the NCIS check, right? Right? Am I missing something?)

SleazyRider
February 6, 2013, 08:52 AM
Well, here in the Empire State (so aptly named), anybody can mail-order a black powder gun; in fact, you may legally hang it on the wall or over the fireplace without any further ado. However, according to the law, if you possess the fixins to shoot it---powder, caps, balls---you must register it and put it on your permit just like it's a Glock. Being a law-abiding citizen, not to mention one who occasionally shoots his black powder pistols off premises, I have mine listed on my permit and can carry it concealed if I choose to do so. If I had an urge to rob the local bodega, however, I doubt that I'd list it on my permit unless I was the dumbest criminal in the State. Needless to say, the law is beyond ludicrous, and vies with our recently-enacted SAFE Act as the magnum opus of ignorance and stupidity.

SleazyRider
February 6, 2013, 08:54 AM
Antique ignition platforms may well be the last to go, but the only sure way to protect the ownership of them is to protect ownership of all others. There is no safety in the soot; we have to protect modern arms or risk losing the old ones as well.

Be active, be vocal, and hold the line.
Truer words are seldom spoken. Well said!

Busyhands94
February 6, 2013, 12:56 PM
Lunie, good post. :D

Last weekend we had some family friends over for a BBQ. My dad's friend's daughter (she is 6) knows that the 2nd Amendment is a right, and she even knows what "Shall not be infringed" meant. That 6 year old girl knows more about the American constitution than half of congress! :p

michaelbsc
February 6, 2013, 01:00 PM
Well, here in the Empire State (so aptly named), anybody can mail-order a black powder gun; in fact, you may legally hang it on the wall or over the fireplace without any further ado.

While it's true that anyone can mail-order the piece without further ado - and the vendor isn't obliged to check up on anything, I suspect that if you ask someone who works for the state probation office they'll tell you that their charges are forbidden from doing so.

Much the same as someone who has had their driver's license suspended for 30 days can stick the keys in the car and go buy gasoline and drive over the river and through the woods to Grandmother's house, and it isn't the station attendant's job to validate that he's selling gasoline to someone for a legal road trip, it isn't Cabela's job to validate they're customer isn't restricted.

In this case it is the customer, or the felon, that is regulated, not the item.

Center-fire guns are regulated. And convicted felons are regulated. But it's different sets of regulations.

To take the example a bit farther, is every landlord in the state obliged to check the registered sex offender records before letting an apartment near an elementary school, or are the people who are restricted just supposed to know that they can be picked up if they break the terms of their release, and behave accordingly?

SleazyRider
February 6, 2013, 03:42 PM
While it's true that anyone can mail-order the piece without further ado - and the vendor isn't obliged to check up on anything, I suspect that if you ask someone who works for the state probation office they'll tell you that their charges are forbidden from doing so.

Much the same as someone who has had their driver's license suspended for 30 days can stick the keys in the car and go buy gasoline and drive over the river and through the woods to Grandmother's house, and it isn't the station attendant's job to validate that he's selling gasoline to someone for a legal road trip, it isn't Cabela's job to validate they're customer isn't restricted.

In this case it is the customer, or the felon, that is regulated, not the item.

Center-fire guns are regulated. And convicted felons are regulated. But it's different sets of regulations.

To take the example a bit farther, is every landlord in the state obliged to check the registered sex offender records before letting an apartment near an elementary school, or are the people who are restricted just supposed to know that they can be picked up if they break the terms of their release, and behave accordingly?
Absolutely so! And that is precisely where the farce lies: the rules are directed toward those who are least likely to obey them.

(WARNING! EDITORIAL IN PROGRESS) To digress just a bit, there is a point at which law-abiding citizens can no longer tolerate "law" that is unjust---the recently-passed New York SAFE Act comes to mind---and become de facto, malum prohibitum criminals. (END OF EDITORIAL. Please accept my apologies.)

Lunie
February 6, 2013, 05:31 PM
michael,

I am not a lawyer or an expert. I can't speak for all states. I believe that felons can legally possess arms classified as having antique style ignition systems in my state. I also believe this is true in many, if not most, other states. Yours, and others, may vary.

michaelbsc
February 6, 2013, 05:55 PM
I am not a lawyer or an expert. I can't speak for all states. I believe that felons can legally possess arms classified as having antique style ignition systems in my state. I also believe this is true in many, if not most, other states. Yours, and others, may vary.

I'm not a lawyer either. Nor am I an LEO. My uncle was a Deputy Sheriff all his life, and his son, my first cousin is also. And two of my close friends are probation officers.

I have asked specifically about the black powder weapons, and the answer I've gotten is that that they are prohibited from possessing them. Period.

As I said, the "item" isn't regulated the way a center fire cartridge weapon is regulated, but the person is regulated. And you can bet that if my buddy the probation officer finds you with a BP pistol in violation of your probation, then you're going back to the slammer right then. Same with a long knife.

I cannot answer what might happen if you keep your nose clean until your probation is up. Like I said, I'm not a lawyer either, and I didn't stay at Holiday Inn last night. Perhaps then you can have one, or maybe you can't. I don't know, and I don't really want to have to find out, thank you very much. I like my guns just like they are.

Your state may be different.

Lunie
February 8, 2013, 02:32 PM
I'm not a lawyer either. Nor am I an LEO. My uncle was a Deputy Sheriff all his life, and his son, my first cousin is also. And two of my close friends are probation officers.

I have asked specifically about the black powder weapons, and the answer I've gotten is that that they are prohibited from possessing them. Period.

As I said, the "item" isn't regulated the way a center fire cartridge weapon is regulated, but the person is regulated. And you can bet that if my buddy the probation officer finds you with a BP pistol in violation of your probation, then you're going back to the slammer right then. Same with a long knife.

I cannot answer what might happen if you keep your nose clean until your probation is up. Like I said, I'm not a lawyer either, and I didn't stay at Holiday Inn last night. Perhaps then you can have one, or maybe you can't. I don't know, and I don't really want to have to find out, thank you very much. I like my guns just like they are.

Your state may be different.

I'm not certain who you asked, but be mindful that there are few people who are "qualified" to give legal advice; those people are lawyers. Anyone else, from LEO's, Legislators, or what have you, often give no better than opinions that you might acquire by asking strangers on the street. (Even then, what the law "is" seems to be ever debatable. Statutes may say one thing, prosecutors another, and judges may be on another page entirely.)

My point was that in my state, as well as others, "antique" style arms can be legally purchased and possessed by felons (according to my opinion, research, and understanding, and I am not a lawyer). It may not be where you are, but it is in some places. And somehow, it seems to cause no noticeable ill effects. They seem to prefer possessing more modern (cartridge) arms in violation of the law, and using those to commit other crimes. If that isn't noteworthy, I'm not sure what is.

michaelbsc
February 8, 2013, 02:55 PM
The people I've asked are the people who would be making the arrest, but not the prosecution. The apparent incongruence of the rules seemed odd to me, so I just asked the question standing around the grill cooking burgers. After all, I've got these cousin LEOs around all the time.

I'll agree that local laws can and do vary widely. So the answers I got have no bearing to anyone else's location. And if criminals are sneaking on THR looking for ways to get a stealth gun I hope I offer them no useful advice.

It's true that criminals would prefer a stolen Glock to a BP revolver any day of the week. It's a way more useful tool. So, since they're breaking the law anyway, just jack it on up to the real deal.

44 Dave
February 9, 2013, 01:33 AM
I bought 2# of black powder today, in a small shop up here in the "North Woods". I was a new customer and was not asked even name or residency, just like the old days except the $20 price.

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