So you know dealers were taking a mag out of the Gen 4 Glock box?


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Inebriated
January 29, 2013, 09:04 AM
Yeah, so you guys know that some dealers took one of the mags out of the Gen 4 Glock boxes, and sold them separately, right? Thankfully, Glock finally noticed.

See attachment.

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Auto426
January 29, 2013, 11:28 AM
It seems that with all th panic buying going on that some less than reputable dealers can't resist keeping their hands out of the boxes for new guns. It's not just Glock that's being affected. I've seen the same thing happen on Gunbroker th Sig 551A1's. Some of the dealers are taking one or two of the expensive and hard to find Swiss made magazines out of the boxes and then selling them separately from the gun for inflated prices. I even saw one dealer trying to offer aluminum AR-15 mags in place of one of the mags they took from the box.

silicosys4
January 29, 2013, 11:51 AM
I saw that last year with Colt MOE magpul 6920's from a disreputable seller on GB....the accessory magpul foregrip and extra mag was missing from the guns he was sending out. That go-around was why I stopped using GB altogether.

BP Hunter
January 29, 2013, 12:57 PM
Somehow I understand (but not agree) in jacking up the price of the leftovers AK's and AR's, but to "steal" a magazine from the rightful owner of new Gen $ Glock is too low.:fire:

targetshooter22
January 29, 2013, 01:43 PM
Yeah, that's double sleazy with a side of slime. I hope their reviews on GB and other sites are well written to explain the fraud they are committing. :mad:

TennJed
January 29, 2013, 02:55 PM
Somehow I understand (but not agree) in jacking up the price of the leftovers AK's and AR's, but to "steal" a magazine from the rightful owner of new Gen $ Glock is too low.:fire:
agree 100%

Inebriated
January 29, 2013, 04:33 PM
Somehow I understand (but not agree) in jacking up the price of the leftovers AK's and AR's, but to "steal" a magazine from the rightful owner of new Gen $ Glock is too low.

I agree. I think it's a terrible exploitation of the current state of the industry. No better than all the anti's coming out of the wood work after a tragedy.

ID-shooting
January 29, 2013, 04:38 PM
Someone will come along and point out that the dealer owns the items and can separate out what they wish in the name of capitalism. We would be un-American to gripe about it.

Inebriated
January 29, 2013, 04:43 PM
Someone will come along and point out that the dealer owns the items and can separate out what they wish in the name of capitalism. We would be un-American to gripe about it.

Actually, no... The box Glock ships the guns in says how many mags will be in the box. So dealers are not delivering on what the customer is buying.

I'm all for business doing as they please, as long as you're getting what you're buying.

Coop45
January 29, 2013, 05:10 PM
Those are the dealers whose names should be listed as crooks.

EBK
January 29, 2013, 06:14 PM
I wonder how many peole they have done this to and if glock is making it right with the customers. I also wonder what other firearms they are doing this to.

Its theft pure and simple and they should be prosecuted.

This is why I always find out from the maker what is supposed to come with the firearm before purchase.

ApacheCoTodd
January 29, 2013, 06:33 PM
Generally when someone posts griping about "bad" dealers relative to pricing I blow it off as sour grapes. When there's griping about venue shopping, I blow it off as it being their business to conduct as they see fit.

This?

This is just plain theft if the customer is paying the price of an "as distributed" firearm and the "dealer/stealer" should be outed as a thief after confirmation of the practice as a matter of policy.

I'd be on the phone to the regional distributor, Shotgun News (if the dealer advertises there, SN has great ethics guidelines for advertisers) and even the county attorney's office if the dealer doesn't make right.

I've thrown dealers under the bus as a manufacturer and dealer when I've heard of this practice in the past. Big time problem at the end in California!

This is exactly like buying a new car then having to pay for things like owner's manuals, spare tires and the like.

Completely unacceptable but unfortunately not uncommon.

SharpsDressedMan
January 29, 2013, 06:59 PM
I think this has happened more than once over the last 20-30 years. You guys just noticed? Back in '94 when the hi cap ban when into effect, this was a common practice. The mags were worth about 3-5 times what they were before the ban, so dealers yanked them, and sold guns with one mag, or included a 10 rounder after snatching the 2nd hi cap. Maybe not ethical, but no one had to buy the gun; they did anyway.

jerkface11
January 29, 2013, 07:10 PM
If they sell it as a new gun legally they can't alter what you get with it.

Walkalong
January 29, 2013, 07:11 PM
Good for Glock.

sanman513
January 29, 2013, 07:13 PM
At the fairgrounds gun show in Orlando, almost everyone was doing that. My dad picked up a Glock and the dealer muttered forgetting to switch them to the 10rds....:rolleyes:

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

ID-shooting
January 29, 2013, 07:19 PM
If they sell it as a new gun legally they can't alter what you get with it.
Not that I agree, and I do with the names were published. But...why can't they?

Buyer goes in, decides he wants a new g19, dealer hands him the box and says $550. Guy opens the box, in there is one g19 and one mag. Guy says ok and pays. Maybe the dealer tells him, maybe they don't. Either way, buyer inspects it and agrees on the price. Seems legit.

I wouldn't buy it, but playing devil's advocate.

EBK
January 29, 2013, 07:48 PM
Not that I agree, and I do with the names were published. But...why can't they?

Buyer goes in, decides he wants a new g19, dealer hands him the box and says $550. Guy opens the box, in there is one g19 and one mag. Guy says ok and pays. Maybe the dealer tells him, maybe they don't. Either way, buyer inspects it and agrees on the price. Seems legit.

I wouldn't buy it, but playing devil's advocate.

I will tell you what my father always told me.

A lie by omission is still a lie.

Now while telling lies is not illegal, fraud is.

They paid for a factory new product which includes all items shipped in the packaging from the factory. Once something from that packaging is removed it is no longer factory new. So the customer in your example is buying what he believes is factory new and the seller does not disclose that parts are missing. I believe that fall under the defrauding catagory and that sir is a crime.

glove
January 29, 2013, 07:59 PM
If you know they are being sold with 3 mags. Why would you buy the pistol with anything less.:uhoh:

CajunBass
January 29, 2013, 08:08 PM
If you know they are being sold with 3 mags. Why would you buy the pistol with anything less

If I hadn't read this thread, I wouldn't know if they came with one mag or ten.

b7tac
January 29, 2013, 08:47 PM
You have to be an unscrupulous POS to take advantage of the current mess we find ourselves in. Its one thing to make some extra money when demand is high (not too happy about that either), but to cheat people out of the full package that they paid for - pathetic.

oncewaslost
January 29, 2013, 10:06 PM
You can add the s&w sd40ve to the list. One dealer on gunbroker will email after the sale and offer extra mags for $25 . If you decline you only end up with one.

Bush Pilot
January 29, 2013, 10:53 PM
People that do this are following the "Cheaper Than Dirt" business model.

mgmorden
January 29, 2013, 11:19 PM
You can add the s&w sd40ve to the list. One dealer on gunbroker will email after the sale and offer extra mags for $25 . If you decline you only end up with one.

I think I saw one of his listings when I was buying my SD40VE. I always glance over the specs of any auction I'm interested in and noticed one dealer on there listing a new gun but the listing specifically said it included ONE magazine, when I knew the gun came with two. Never contacted that dealer, but ended up going elsewhere for the gun. Found a dealer out of NC that had a good price and the gun came with both the mags it was supposed to.

oncewaslost
January 30, 2013, 08:25 AM
I think I saw one of his listings when I was buying my SD40VE. I always glance over the specs of any auction I'm interested in and noticed one dealer on there listing a new gun but the listing specifically said it included ONE magazine, when I knew the gun came with two. Never contacted that dealer, but ended up going elsewhere for the gun. Found a dealer out of NC that had a good price and the gun came with both the mags it was supposed to.
When I bought mine (actually two) the diescription didn't specify either way. I always keep a screen shot for reference. Obviously I assumed I would get two with each pistol. I see he has revised his description and now it does say one, but you really have to look for it. I actually paid for two extra mags... expecting to get the two that came with each pistol and two extra. When I received them they each had two mags in their box but no extras. Assuming he just forgot I emailed and to my surprise he normally only ships one with each pistol. I have'nt left feedback yet because after pitching a bitch he said he would send me two extra mags when he got more in. Does that mean when he removes mags from someones elses box?

Aaron1100us
January 30, 2013, 08:28 AM
When I bought my G33 two years ago, I only got one mag :(

Sent from my PB99400 using Tapatalk 2

tarosean
January 30, 2013, 08:30 AM
Someone want to PM me names of these GB sellers??

Inebriated
January 30, 2013, 09:27 AM
If I knew 'em, they'd be plastered all over lol.

beatledog7
January 30, 2013, 10:16 AM
It's theft, just as would be a car dealer taking the spare tire out of a new vehicle and then offering the buyer that spare at an additional cost.

Queen_of_Thunder
January 30, 2013, 10:22 AM
Does your LGS have mags hanging on the wall in sandwich bags. If they do they probably are probaly shorging you on your mags.

jerkface11
January 30, 2013, 11:07 AM
why can't they?

Because if you alter it it isn't NEW any more. Selling it as new is fraud.

HOOfan_1
January 30, 2013, 01:28 PM
GOOD....finally a manufacturer comes out and threatens the dealers with cutting off their supply if they continue questionable business practice.

Even people that think it is ok for a dealer to do what they want with a gun they own, you can certainly agree that the manufacturer has the right to tell the distributors that they are not to distribute their product to those dealers who are doing things like this.

SharpsDressedMan
January 30, 2013, 01:54 PM
"If they sell it as a new gun legally they can't alter what you get with it. "
I think if they tell you there is only one magazine coming with it, yuou aren't going to get anywhere suing them. It is their gun until you buy it. Back during the mag ban, it was common practice, and you either bought the gun or you didn't. In some states where there was a 10 rd ban in effect already, gunshops had to remove hi cap mags to guns that were shipped by mistake with them, and place 10 rounders in. Not the same gun, not the same marked package, etc. Just business as usual.

BP Hunter
January 30, 2013, 02:23 PM
Hmmm, the Glock mentioned 2 magazines only for the Gen 4 guns. I bought a Gen4 G22 a few months back and it came with 3 magazines...good for me!:D

Inebriated
January 30, 2013, 02:43 PM
Hmmm, the Glock mentioned 2 magazines only for the Gen 4 guns. I bought a Gen4 G22 a few months back and it came with 3 magazines...good for me!

The page attached to their statement goes for Gen 3 guns, not Gen 4. Look on a Gen 4 box, and it says "3 xRD" on the label, indicating 3 X round magazines. Gen 3 boxes say "2 xRD".

jerkface11
January 30, 2013, 03:16 PM
I think if they tell you there is only one magazine coming with it, yuou aren't going to get anywhere suing them.

And yet they still cannot mark it as new if it isn't.

mgmorden
January 30, 2013, 04:02 PM
And yet they still cannot mark it as new if it isn't.

The gun itself is still new if they remove the magazine. The upstream vendor can refuse to further supply them with product (which is basically what Glock is threatening them with), and the customers can (rightly) complain about the slimy practice, but you're not going to gain any traction on the "Its not new" angle.

In the video games world Gamestop for example was recently the recipient of a lot of public backlash for opening the boxes of new video games and removing a coupon for a competing online service they didn't like. Customers complained a lot and they eventually stopped, but they didn't run into any legal trouble for it.

SharpsDressedMan
January 30, 2013, 06:12 PM
It boils down to this: if the value of the mags included with the pistol go up due to demand, you can either pay a higher price for the boxed set as-is, or pay less for the pistol with items removed from the box, and maybe buy the mags separately. For the guys not familiar with the practice, would you pay $100 more than suggested retail for the stock item with hi caps, or would you prefer to pay retail for the pistol with two 10 rounders, or worse yet, two NY 7-rounders (soon to come). Priceson hi caps might get as goofy as they did back in '94. I hope ya'll aren't scrambling right now, and prices and dealers are still good in your areas, but I can see this getting REAL ugly if the feds outlaw hi caps again.....with NO sunset clause.

jerkface11
January 30, 2013, 06:30 PM
Opening the gun and removing accessories it came with makes it not new. As I said selling it as new after that is fraud. Justify it all you like it's still wrong.

EBK
January 30, 2013, 08:24 PM
You can add the s&w sd40ve to the list. One dealer on gunbroker will email after the sale and offer extra mags for $25 . If you decline you only end up with one.
I can confrm it ships with 2. My SD40 VE came with 2 mags.

45_auto
January 30, 2013, 09:05 PM
Opening the gun and removing accessories it came with makes it not new.

Nope, it's still a new gun, just not with as many accessories. Until it comes off the dealer's bound book and onto a 4473 it's still new. At that time any manufacturer's warranties, etc, go into effect.

Same way a "new" car doesn't have zero miles on it. Until the paperwork is done for the first time, it's still new.

TennJed
January 30, 2013, 09:33 PM
Nope, it's still a new gun, just not with as many accessories. Until it comes off the dealer's bound book and onto a 4473 it's still new. At that time any manufacturer's warranties, etc, go into effect.

Same way a "new" car doesn't have zero miles on it. Until the paperwork is done for the first time, it's still new.

Since you are looking at it from a technicality standpoint, I assume would would also be ok with the shop owner being charged with theft?

zhd
January 30, 2013, 09:39 PM
Here in GA there is a particular dealer that is taking the 17 rnd mags out of a Gen 4 G17 box and replaced it with 2 10 rnd mags. I was ready to buy the gun at the marked up price but when I saw this it disgusted me and I did not buy, and never will from this dealer. Is there any way to let Glock know what is going on? And will they take any actions or not?

Inebriated
January 30, 2013, 09:54 PM
Glock knows... that's the whole point of me posting this thread haha.

EBK
January 30, 2013, 10:25 PM
Are they making it right with the customer?
If so I WILL purchase a glock even though I am not a fan just to support a stand up company.

They should send a bill for the cost to the shops who stole the mags.

I hate thieves.

Madcap_Magician
January 31, 2013, 12:11 AM
I think this is only dishonest if the guns are being sold as new without any mention of how many mags they come with. Since it is known how many mags a new Glock SHOULD have, and what capacity they should be, trying to pass of swapped-in 10-round mags or removing spare mags altogether would mean that the gun was not sold as described, which IMHO at least would be a violation of Gunbroker's seller policy.

If you want to charge more for it because of the ban panic, then just charge more up front.

Which all goes to show that we should all read the fine print on GB very carefully, since there are plenty of turds there.

Auto426
January 31, 2013, 04:13 AM
Your not just buying a gun, you are buying a complete package. There's a SKU number on the outside of the plastic case and a gun that comes with normal capacity mags has a different SKU compared to the one with 10 round mags.

The big issue is when dealers take 1 or 2 mags away from that package, but then try to sell it as if its still the same is where the problem comes in. Some dealers on GB will have a list of what's included in the advertisement, others just list the manufacturer's SKU number and put up a stock photo. A case of fraud could probably made against the later since they are not delivering what their add promised, but it would be cheaper in the end to just go out and buy a couple of extra mags. It's nice to see Glock come out and take a stand on the issue though. Hopefully the problem dealers will listen.

rodinal220
January 31, 2013, 08:48 AM
This has been going on since the Clinton era 94 ban.I questioned many dealers about this and they stated I was wrong and they were right because they had an FFL and knew better:rolleyes:

Taurus 617 CCW
January 31, 2013, 09:52 AM
It's sad to see that some people are stooping this low. Taking advantage of customers is a great way to run yourself out of business. People remember these sorts of things when times are become good again. :scrutiny:

Ken70
January 31, 2013, 03:52 PM
This has been going on since the Clinton era 94 ban.I questioned many dealers about this and they stated I was wrong and they were right because they had an FFL and knew better:rolleyes:
Dealer snatched the second mag from my G23 in
'95.

bbooker
January 31, 2013, 09:14 PM
Here in GA there is a particular dealer that is taking the 17 rnd mags out of a Gen 4 G17 box and replaced it with 2 10 rnd mags. I was ready to buy the gun at the marked up price but when I saw this it disgusted me and I did not buy, and never will from this dealer. Is there any way to let Glock know what is going on? And will they take any actions or not?
Who is the dealer that tried to shaft you in GA???? Want to be sure I don't buy from him.

zhd
January 31, 2013, 09:21 PM
The Gun Store

1498 Buford Hwy NE Buford, GA 30518
(770) 451-4239

Sleeze Bag operation still in business. These guys are really taking advantage of the tough gun times.

Inebriated
February 1, 2013, 10:34 AM
They have a very original name.

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