How Much Would You Pay for a tactical replacement receiver for a pump/semi shotgun?


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CmdrSlander
January 30, 2013, 06:16 PM
Envision a CNC machined high strength alloy receiver for shotguns, there would be a version for the Mossberg 500, FN SLP, Remington 870, and Remington 1100 series.

This is a receiver designed to provide a more modern shotgun platform for tactical shooters, competitors, military and law enforcement. It has modern lines (think the billet lowers for AR15s (http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/mega-lower-300x225.jpg), very sci-fi in a way), and features:

-Flattop MIL-STD-1913 rail machined directly into the top of the receiver and extended 6" beyond the receiver over the barrel (a reverse-cantilever design). This would be very similar to the flattop rail of an A4 configuration AR15, but with the extension that goes past the receiver. [in order to achieve this and clear the barrel the receiver, integral rail included, would be a little under a centimeter taller than a standard factory receiver].

-Ambi QD sling mounting cups positioned near the rear of the receiver on both sides of the gun.

-Two piece (870 and 500) or one piece (1100, SLP) 8 or 10 round magazine tube with integral (machined in) MIL-STD-1913 rails on the end of the magazine tube nearest the muzzle (positioned so as not to impede cycling the pump, etc.). Includes machined ambi QD sling cups.

-Forward iron sight rail that is attaches to the magazine tube and wraps around the barrel, positioning it in the expected place (this allows for the use of rail mount BUIS without modifying the barrel of the shotgun in any way).

-Optional mix and matching of stocks (you could order an FN SLP receiver drilled and tapped for Remington 870 stocks, thus greatly expanding your customization options).

-Bypasses 922r restrictions on imported firearms, the new receiver is technically the gun, just drop in your foreign bolt, barrel, gas system/recoil system/buffer, etc. and use all the 'evil' components you want.

-Easily installed by anyone who can fully strip their firearm, does not require any special equipment.


This would be considered a firearm and would be a serialized part, it would have to go through an FFL. Legally your shotgun would no longer be the make/model that it was, it would be the make model that was engraved on the new receiver.

I am asking THR this because shotgun receivers are relatively simple and I don't think anyone has tried to make a modernized version of the common shotgun receivers. I believe there is a market for them in the tactical community. I have design drawings for the 870 version of the receiver that I will post shortly. I may one day raise capital and begin production of these receivers if my test marketing goes well.

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Skribs
January 30, 2013, 06:33 PM
I'm not sure what it would be worth, but I'd be interested in looking at it for a 590 or 930. Wouldn't need to go around 922r because Mossberg is American.

One feature I would suggest is a sort of ergonomic contour on the forend. Angle it slightly as it comes back, I find that to be more comfortable.

CmdrSlander
January 30, 2013, 07:26 PM
I'm not sure what it would be worth, but I'd be interested in looking at it for a 590 or 930. Wouldn't need to go around 922r because Mossberg is American.

One feature I would suggest is a sort of ergonomic contour on the forend. Angle it slightly as it comes back, I find that to be more comfortable.
Thanks for the feedback.

This would not include a forend, only a receiver and magazine tube so the angle of the forend would be up to you. It would fit any standard forend for your model of shotgun.

LeonCarr
January 30, 2013, 08:00 PM
Would the receiver and magazine tube be one piece, or would the tube be brazed or threaded into the receiver?

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

CmdrSlander
January 30, 2013, 08:27 PM
Would the receiver and magazine tube be one piece, or would the tube be brazed or threaded into the receiver?

Just my .02,
LeonCarr
That is up in the air at the moment, as both are quite doable with the technology on hand. It would be easier to do them as one piece and most shotgun receivers that I've seen being sold separately include the magazine tube.

Which would you prefer?

soloban
January 30, 2013, 08:28 PM
Roughly same price as an AR-15 lower (pre-madness)

CmdrSlander
January 30, 2013, 08:30 PM
Here is a side elevation of the receiver design:

http://s3.postimage.org/opcitcg0j/zither.png

Skribs
January 30, 2013, 08:39 PM
Ah, okay, that makes sense. One other thing: making it easy to install a side-saddle on the side of the receiver would be nice.

CmdrSlander
January 30, 2013, 08:41 PM
Ah, okay, that makes sense. One other thing: making it easy to install a side-saddle on the side of the receiver would be nice.
What does installing one usually entail?

Skribs
January 30, 2013, 08:52 PM
I don't do much of my own stuff, but I just mean make sure there's something there that a commonly manufactured side saddle could be attached, instead of just forgetting about them and requiring the user to figure out how to attach one.

CmdrSlander
January 30, 2013, 09:02 PM
I don't do much of my own stuff, but I just mean make sure there's something there that a commonly manufactured side saddle could be attached, instead of just forgetting about them and requiring the user to figure out how to attach one.
With an integral top rail I could see a side saddle that attaches by slotting through the Picatinny rails like this AR15 brass catcher (but is mounted on the other side of the firearm).
http://www.elmfg.com/images/DSCN1281.JPG

Deer_Freak
January 30, 2013, 09:33 PM
Side saddle scope mounts are a dime a dozen. A rail could be made in the same fashion. It would sell better because the aftermarket receiver would devalue the gun (IMO). Everyone knows what they are getting when they buy a gun with a stock receiver. Mossberg drills and taps their receivers. Rails are available on ebay for a reasonable cost for a Mossberg. To be frank I wouldn't buy an aftermarket receiver until they had been field tested for 30 years or so.

Virginian
January 30, 2013, 09:35 PM
I assume you do realize that a receiver would be considered a firearm by BATF.
Sorry. It appears I can't read.

CmdrSlander
January 30, 2013, 09:47 PM
I assume you do realize that a receiver would be considered a firearm by BATF.
From my OP:
This would be considered a firearm and would be a serialized part, it would have to go through an FFL. Legally your shotgun would no longer be the make/model that it was, it would be the make model that was engraved on the new receiver.

Fred Fuller
January 30, 2013, 11:13 PM
Interesting.

Now IF l'l ol' me could get anything I wanted in a shotgun at this point, I'd like an 870 with a receiver that will accept standard 870 internals (3" is sufficient) and factory barrels, and have a user replaceable ejector and magazine tube. Aluminum or steel, makes not much nevermind because the lockup of bolt to barrel extension is steel on steel no matter what holds the parts in proper working relationship.

That's pretty much it, for the receiver.

I'm not much of a fan of cheese graters - excuse me, rails some call them - on genuine working guns. The ability to mount a ghost ring sight on the gun would be an advantage, and there's at least one model of such a sight that mounts on a rail. No need to extend it beyond the front of the receiver though, IMHO.

That would mean having to provide magazine tubes threaded at the rear to fit the new receiver, since Remington mag tubes are soldered into the receiver. Having the option of swapping standard mag tube lengths (4-round and 6-round) plus being able to add extensions if needed would be an advantage IMHO. That would mean standard Remington mag tube threads on the muzzle end.

hth, and good luck on the project - this could get really interesting!

OBTW, the last stripped 870 receiver I bought (with mag tube in place) was $70 delivered. I'd pay twice that or more to get one that meets the basic outline above.

AI&P Tactical
January 30, 2013, 11:13 PM
Don't get it. The 870 receiver is fine. Your doing this why?

CmdrSlander
January 30, 2013, 11:29 PM
Don't get it. The 870 receiver is fine. Your doing this why?
To offer reduced weight and superior hardpoints for optics and slings as well as user replaceable magazine tubes and the ability to mate accessories that are available for common shotguns (such the 870) to receivers that accept the action of less common guns (FN SLP). Look at Volquartsen and their custom 10/22 Receivers or all the companies that make AR15 upper receivers that are unique or superior in some way... it works well for them even though their is nothing "wrong" with the original firearm.

CmdrSlander
January 30, 2013, 11:32 PM
Interesting.

Now IF l'l ol' me could get anything I wanted in a shotgun at this point, I'd like an 870 with a receiver that will accept standard 870 internals (3" is sufficient) and factory barrels, and have a user replaceable ejector and magazine tube. Aluminum or steel, makes not much nevermind because the lockup of bolt to barrel extension is steel on steel no matter what holds the parts in proper working relationship.

That's pretty much it, for the receiver.

I'm not much of a fan of cheese graters - excuse me, rails some call them - on genuine working guns. The ability to mount a ghost ring sight on the gun would be an advantage, and there's at least one model of such a sight that mounts on a rail. No need to extend it beyond the front of the receiver though, IMHO.

That would mean having to provide magazine tubes threaded at the rear to fit the new receiver, since Remington mag tubes are soldered into the receiver. Having the option of swapping standard mag tube lengths (4-round and 6-round) plus being able to add extensions if needed would be an advantage IMHO. That would mean standard Remington mag tube threads on the muzzle end.

hth, and good luck on the project - this could get really interesting!

OBTW, the last stripped 870 receiver I bought (with mag tube in place) was $70 delivered. I'd pay twice that or more to get one that meets the basic outline above.
I'll have a draft of the design you spec'd ready in about an hour.

I love rails and am of the opinion that the flexibility they give the user makes any firearm better, but I can understand the opposition to rails as well. As a rule I don't like full on quad rail setups on my firearms, but a receiver and under barrel rail are musts for me, at least on a rifle. Shotguns, which have less use for vertical foregrips and bipods can get away with only a top rail.

CmdrSlander
January 31, 2013, 12:28 AM
Here is Fred Fuller's stripped down variant:
http://s3.postimage.org/xkigoinm9/zitherspar.png

Skribs
January 31, 2013, 12:41 AM
The issue with adding a rail on top of the receiver is it is taller than if you just have the rail included.

Girodin
January 31, 2013, 03:50 AM
Bypasses 922r restrictions on imported firearms, the new receiver is technically the gun

You might want to rethink that one. It is pretty obvious you don't understand what 922r is or how it operates. Its whole raison d'etre it to prevent what you are talking about. Seriously. A receiver would be one, rather expensive I imagine, countable part.

As to the rest of your question. That does not sound like a product I would buy. There is not enough benefit to justify what I assume the cost would be. At the right price point who knows.

the ability to mate accessories that are available for common shotguns (such the 870) to receivers that accept the action of less common guns (FN SLP).

It seems just buying an 870, or even a pardner pump, would be a much cheaper easier alternative.

evan price
January 31, 2013, 06:55 AM
922(r) would only matter if you were trying to assemble a 'non-sporting' configuration firearm, which would otherwise not be importable, from a foreign parts kit.

Guns where 922(r) matters (like an AK let's say) just the fact of it being a US-made receiver does not bypass 922(r), the US-made receiver counts as one US-made part to reduce the imported parts count towards what is allowed. On an AK-type rifle, there are 16 parts which are considered for the makeup of the rifle, and you would need SIX US-made parts to be 922(r) compliant, of which that US-made receiver (which is technicaly 'the gun') is only one.

And in the case of the shotguns you describe, we're talking American stuff like 870s and Mossbergs, which are US-made shotguns anyway and are not going to even need consideration for 922(r)- just like the Ruger 10/22.

But really- the strength of the receiver is not an issue with shotguns like the 870 and Mossberg- the actual lockup is between the bolt and barrel and the receiver could be made of cardboard as long as it held all the fire-control bits in the right place and had a way to let the bolt cycle. It's a neat idea, but one which really won't be all that useful- I mean, really, how many broken receivers has anyone ever seen?

Rails...meh. Why? Why hang a bunch of junk all over a simple firearm?

Not saying don't try to do this- just don't think you'll get rich quick.

lemaymiami
January 31, 2013, 09:23 AM
Got to go with AI&P on this proposition (particularly for the 870 series). That simple setup in riot configuration (four in the tube, bead sight on 18" barrel) is a man killing proposition pure and simple. Nice to add all the bells and whistles... but on the street, where it counts - the simpler the better (and I've never heard any complaints about the receivers on any 870, if they're in working condition).

All of my training and experience with shotguns involved police work so that's where I'm coming from. Looking at catalogues and popular media there sure are a lot of folks who disagree with me.... I can live with that.

single stack
January 31, 2013, 09:47 AM
Your AR-870 will sell like hotcakes to the Black Rifle folks.
Your cosmetic changes may be appreciated by many.

If you intend to use the existing trigger group, what have
you accomplished? Did you save one or two ounces?
If not, you could just screw a rail into the scope
mounting holes in a slug model 870.

The Remington 870 is a proven platform for wingshooting,
self defense and offense. Wood stocked 870s look good too.

Desolo
February 1, 2013, 09:01 AM
Perhaps Your idea and the one mentioned here would be a good combo? http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/82335-black-aces-tactical-shotgun-receiver/
I saw this post at the Saiga 12 forums about a company called Black Aces Tactical making aftermarket recivers for a bunch of shotguns that are supposed to take S-12 box mags.... Odd but maybe it would be worth looking into for a "modern" american shotgun.

That said my ol' pumps will stay tube fed, and kept simple.... My s-12 is my fancy one LOL

Skribs
February 1, 2013, 12:10 PM
Can rails really be used to grate cheese? That's yet another use for them! Thanks for the suggestion, Fred!

JAshley73
February 1, 2013, 08:10 PM
To CmdrSlander: I've got to ask, do you have any manufacturing experience? Have you gone as far as to consider how you are going to design the parts, fixture the parts, machine the parts, and so on and so on, all the way to distributing them to the customer?

I'm not trying to be a jerk here - I'm genuinely interested - but the comment about making the receiver and magazine tube either integrated or separate raised a yellow flag for me. (I am assuming you did not mean machining a receiver and magazine tube out of a solid billet material, which from a manufacturing perspective would be suicidal, and also cost prohibitive to the end user...)

CmdrSlander
February 2, 2013, 07:32 PM
To CmdrSlander: I've got to ask, do you have any manufacturing experience? Have you gone as far as to consider how you are going to design the parts, fixture the parts, machine the parts, and so on and so on, all the way to distributing them to the customer?

I'm not trying to be a jerk here - I'm genuinely interested - but the comment about making the receiver and magazine tube either integrated or separate raised a yellow flag for me. (I am assuming you did not mean machining a receiver and magazine tube out of a solid billet material, which from a manufacturing perspective would be suicidal, and also cost prohibitive to the end user...)
I should have said it could be effectively one piece (perm attached, machined separately) or threaded on.

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