You can Mail C&R handguns now (between FFL's)


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Shadow 7D
January 31, 2013, 03:00 PM
Just got off the phone with Classifications and Mailablity for my local PO, he said that he checked and it seems that a C&R (FFL III) can now mail C&R's and receive them.

Cool, here is the link
http://about.usps.com/postal-bulletin/2011/pb22321/html/updt_001.htm

12.1.2 Handguns
[Revise 12.1.2 as follows:]
Handguns and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person are nonmailable unless mailed between the parties listed in 12.1.3 and 12.1.5 after the filing of an affi*davit or statement required by 12.1.4 and 12.1.6, and are subject to the following:
a. Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 12.1.1b, and the definition of curios or relics under 27 CFR 478.11 may be mailed between curio and relic collectors only when those firearms also meet the definition of an antique firearm under 12.1.1g.
b. Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 12.1.1b that are certified by the curator of a municipal, state, or federal museum that exhibits firearms to be cu*rios or relics of museum interest may be accepted for mailing without regard to 12.1.3 through 12.1.6.
c. Air guns that do not fall within the definition of firearm under 12.1.1a that are capable of being concealed on a person are mailable; but must include adult signa*ture service under 503.8.0. Mailers must comply with all applicable state and local regulations.
d. Parts of handguns are mailable, except for handgun frames, receivers, or other parts or components reg*ulated under Chapter 44, Title 18, U.S.C.
e. Mailers are also subject to applicable restrictions by governments of a state, territory, or district.

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browneu
January 31, 2013, 03:02 PM
Interesting.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2

smalls
January 31, 2013, 06:41 PM
Haven't FFL's always been able to ship guns?

Shadow 7D
January 31, 2013, 07:44 PM
Dealers, Importers, and Manufactures...
IOW
every class except FFL III, Collector of Curio's and Relics

smalls
February 1, 2013, 12:52 PM
You're right, I was thinking of recieving. They could receive C&R guns at they'd address.

mgmorden
February 1, 2013, 01:26 PM
This is darned awesome news. Paying for the 2 day shipping was always what made picking up C&R handguns a hassle for me. That and the fact that guns require a signature (and I'm at work on weekdays), and the local UPS office is closed on Saturdays and doesn't open until 10am.

Post office is open at 8am which I can get to before work, and its open until noon on Saturday. All around, just a lot simpler for me.

Shadow 7D
February 3, 2013, 05:08 AM
NO, smalls, you couldn't receive them EITHER (language was BETWEEN)
now you can, now you can get it express or priority registered, no leaving it on your door step, no fudged sig, it's kept in a safe at the post office (registered mail that is, priory, express, well, those rules apply...)

hAkron
February 3, 2013, 07:38 AM
I have my C&R (though, I must admit I've only used it once or twice). I'm a little confused on this topic. Before this new ruling, the only way I could receive a shipment was 2 day UPS, but now it is legal to have it sent via the cheaper express mail? Is that what you are saying? If so, that's great news!

DMK
February 3, 2013, 03:29 PM
NO, smalls, you couldn't receive them EITHER (language was BETWEEN)
now you can, now you can get it express or priority registered, no leaving it on your door step, no fudged sig, it's kept in a safe at the post office (registered mail that is, priory, express, well, those rules apply...)

That's interesting. I've had many C&R guns mailed to me by FFLs.

Walt Sherrill
February 3, 2013, 03:52 PM
Read the emphasized section again:

b. Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 12.1.1b that are certified by the curator of a municipal, state, or federal museum that exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest may be accepted for mailing without regard to 12.1.3 through 12.1.6.

That doesn't say C&R handguns can be shipped to other C&R holders. It speaks of C&R handguns that are of MUSEUM INTEREST being sent, in effect, to a museum. The paragraph RIGHT BEFORE IT, including the part I BOLDED, below, says:

Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 12.1.1b, and the definition of curios or relics under 27 CFR 478.11 may be mailed between curio and relic collectors only when those firearms also meet the definition of an antique firearm under 12.1.1g.

The paragraph/section BEFORE the one shown in bold disputes the original claim that started this discussion. Just because it's C&R doesn't mean that it's a firearm "certified by the curator of a municipal, state, or federal museum that exhibits firearms to be curios or relics." The citation above say only the C&R weapons that are also ANTIQUE can be mailed.

Nothing has changed for those of us with a C&R FFL...

.

TonyT
February 3, 2013, 04:02 PM
Section 12.1.5 is confusing as it states that shipments can be made between C&R's PROVIDING THEY MEET SECTION 12.1.1g AS ANTIQUE FIREARMS. 12.1.1g refers to definition of C&R. 12.1.1h refers to definition of antique guns.
I beleive this explicitly only permits mailing of ANTIQUE HANDGUNS between C&R holders.

Walt Sherrill
February 3, 2013, 10:17 PM
And the reason for that, I think, is that ANTIQUE firearms are NOT considered firearms by the USPS or the ATF. That's why some businesses can sell antique weapons without an FFL, and pawnshop without FFLs can handle the older stuff. (I think Sportsman's Guide, which sells many different sports-related things, sometimes offers Antique guns at really premium prices...)


.

Shadow 7D
February 7, 2013, 05:13 PM
Ok
2 things
Major C&R houses are using mail now
The classifications guy, contacted the ATF and the ATF said it's all good now (between all classes of FFL's)

the question on the language has been taken by some to mean that: ONLY those guns on the C&R list, not those C&R by virtue of age are allowed...

CZguy
February 7, 2013, 11:26 PM
the question on the language has been taken by some to mean that: ONLY those guns on the C&R list, not those C&R by virtue of age are allowed...

Forgive me for being slow, but are you saying that a C&R holder can use USPS to ship a fifty year old gun to another C&R holder?

Shadow 7D
February 8, 2013, 12:40 AM
YEP

Walt Sherrill
February 8, 2013, 08:48 AM
I'm glad someone checked with ATF, as the following, straight from the cited regs, says otherwise -- which was my reason for disputing the original claim. (I will check with the ATF myself, to be sure -- as I'd hate to get in hot water over someone else's misreading or misinterpretation of the regulations.)

a. Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 12.1.1b, and the definition of curios or relics under 27 CFR 478.11 may be mailed between curio and relic collectors only when those firearms also meet the definition of an antique firearm under 12.1.1g.

I don't have any C&R handguns at present, but if I go that route in the future, and the seller is an 03-FFL holder, that'll be a real money saver. (Priority Mail, Insured is BIG TIME cheaper than UPS or FedEx priority air.

mgmorden
February 8, 2013, 09:50 AM
They really need to clean up their wording. They mention referencing 12.1.1g for the definition of antique firearm but that's actually 12.1.1h.

12.1.2a as pointed out by Walt seems to imply that only antiques can be mailed between C&R holders.

12.1.2b then points out that C&R's of museum interest may be accepted as well.

To my understanding though that is how C&R firearms get on the actual list of named firearms. The CZ-82 for example isn't 50 years old but a museum curator had it added as it was manufactured in (and marked as such) a country that no longer existed - Czechoslovakia.

I'm personally going to hold off for a bit before I go USPS for any C&R handguns, but it is actually sounding like C&R's actually named on the C&R list may be mailable but guns that are C&R simply by virtue of being more than 50 years old are not.

TonyT
February 8, 2013, 05:25 PM
It would be prudent to have the ATF interpretation in writing.

jonnyc
February 9, 2013, 05:18 PM
Not sure if it really matters what the ATF says, we need to understand USPS definitions and rules.

stolivar
February 9, 2013, 05:33 PM
Nothing has changed. You can not mail between C&R's. What the ATF says is not true. They are talking about mailing between museums.

Better get that in writing bud.



steve the mailman

zxcvbob
February 9, 2013, 05:34 PM
Nothing has changed. You bolded the wrong parts. Look at it again:

12.1.2 Handguns
[Revise 12.1.2 as follows:]
Handguns and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person are nonmailable unless mailed between the parties listed in 12.1.3 and 12.1.5 after the filing of an affidavit or statement required by 12.1.4 and 12.1.6, and are subject to the following:
a. Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 12.1.1b, and the definition of curios or relics under 27 CFR 478.11 may be mailed between curio and relic collectors only when those firearms also meet the definition of an antique firearm under 12.1.1g.
b. Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 12.1.1b that are certified by the curator of a municipal, state, or federal museum that exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest may be accepted for mailing without regard to 12.1.3 through 12.1.6.
c. Air guns that do not fall within the definition of firearm under 12.1.1a that are capable of being concealed on a person are mailable; but must include adult signature service under 503.8.0. Mailers must comply with all applicable state and local regulations.
d. Parts of handguns are mailable, except for handgun frames, receivers, or other parts or components regulated under Chapter 44, Title 18, U.S.C.
e. Mailers are also subject to applicable restrictions by governments of a state, territory, or district.

Jim K
February 10, 2013, 08:37 PM
It looks to me like they wanted to pretend to make a change without actually changing anything. ANYONE can mail (USPS) an antique firearm (made before 1 Jan 1899) TO ANYONE, no FFL's required. I have mailed several antique guns with no problems to fellow collectors who have NO license at all.

So, no change.

The second section seems to make a change, but clearly applies ONLY to A firearm certified to be a C&R. A firearm, not a class or type of firearm and no mention of any fifty year rule. So EACH firearm you mail to another C&R holder would have to be accompanied by a museum certificate. Think your Nagant revolver would qualify?

I think it is a slick non-relaxation, possibly intended to entrap and cause the arrest of naive collectors. Do I detect the fine hand of the White House in this?

Jim

stolivar
February 10, 2013, 10:12 PM
People just read what they want to believe instead of what it really says.




steve

CZguy
February 10, 2013, 10:29 PM
I think it is a slick non-relaxation, possibly intended to entrap and cause the arrest of naive collectors. Do I detect the fine hand of the White House in this?

People just read what they want to believe instead of what it really says.

You're probably both correct.

Walt Sherrill
February 11, 2013, 10:05 AM
Personally,

1) I don't think the White House really cares about C&R transfers through the mail, and the ATF has more than enough to do in just monitoring 01-FFLs and the flow of weapons being sold to Mexico; and

2) people almost ALWAYS see what they want to see and read what they want to read, even though the real world evidence may point to the contrary -- that's basic psychology. Expectations will often shape what you "see".

I've had a C&R FFL for almost 15 years, and I've yet to see or hear from an ATF agent on any issue that I didn't initiate. I have also never talked to a C&R license holder who has had a different experience. If there was an issue with mailing C&R weapons -- as an earlier poster noted -- the investigation would probably be handled by a USPS Postal Inspector, because it would be a postal regulation being mangled, and not an ATF issue.

Point 2, above, seems especially true -- and you can see it both in the (arguably misinterpreted) version of the regs cited in the original post, and in the comments that attributed the "change" to the willful action of the current Administration in Washington. It's hard for a layman to interpret legal language, and federal ATF or Postal regulations are particularly obtuse. Just interpreting the U.S. Constitution can be a chore -- and it's almost never as simple as "the plain language" seems to suggest.

You may feel that the Federal Government is out to get you -- and you may be right -- but if the Feds already have enough time, resources, and personnel to try to trip up C&R license holders, things are probably far, far worse than you ever thought possible, and you're probably toast, already...

Shadow 7D
February 11, 2013, 11:18 AM
Walt, why don't you call and get a definitive answer (cause guess what, that's what I did)

instead of giving your non legal opinion
so, this is what I know, according to my local post master, and the regional classifications and mailablity specialist (who's the guy the local PM called) who checked with the ATF...
you are good to go, so, other than a no clear reference that either is taken to mean C&R is mailable like antique, or only those on the C&R list are mailable, it seems to be a relaxation. Add to this that the C&R houses are now MAILING their guns and your point seems to be a case of semantic butt hurt that does nothing but muddy the water


SO like all legal issues, please contact your local and ensure for yourself....
or listen to the monkey's with butt hurt jump around the issue

dogtown tom
February 11, 2013, 11:44 AM
Shadow 7D Walt, why don't you call and get a definitive answer (cause guess what, that's what I did)
Verbal advice? Over the phone? From a "local"?:what:
Never. If they won't put that clarification in writing you are skating on thin ice.

NEVER, EVER take verbal interpretations of ATF or USPS regulations as official. I've had many a discussion with both ATF and USPS employees where they gave incorrect information. While it likely was not done on purpose, it was still flat wrong.:cuss:

The supposed "new" USPS regs have so many errors in what definitions they reference as well as other contradictions, I would be very cautious in assuming that what is in that "new" reg is correct.:uhoh:

Until USPS cleans up the glaring errors and contradictions in these "new" regulations I would not risk my ability to possess firearms.

zxcvbob
February 11, 2013, 11:53 AM
Walt doesn't seem to be the one with a bad case of Monkey Butt. :rolleyes:

Walt Sherrill
February 11, 2013, 06:00 PM
The fact that C&R houses are shipping C&R guns through the mail is nice, but meaningless for this discussion -- as I have received pistols through the mail a number of times, over the years, from a couple of different sellers. (It wasn't legal then, but they did it.)

If you read post #16, you'll see that I said I'm going to investigate and try to get answers that satisfy me -- but I agree with others: we need something in writing if we want to avoid problems. Until then, I'm not mailing any C&R pistols. (I've gotten a couple of strange answers from local postmasters, over the years, myself -- so "Local" isn't as definitive as a letter ruling or OFFICIAL (written) response.

If someone wants to MAIL ME the next C&R handgun I buy, rather than using FedEx or UPS, that's fine with me -- as long as I'm not paying for FedEx or UPS.

I HOPE it is true -- and that C&R FFLs can use the mails for C&R handguns, but...

.

stolivar
February 11, 2013, 10:30 PM
For Postmasters to give legal advice.

Most Post Masters and USPS employee's don't know the regulations. You better have that in writing. I have seen an FFL that mailed a handgun to a C&R and got their butts slammed by the Postal Inspectors. It was at my Post Office this happen.

I have had my C&R for over 15 years. It was not legal then and it is not legal now.



steve

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