[JSmith]

Loading .44 magnum this morning using once-fired Winchester brass. This brass was tumbled, deprimed and resized (this is important: I know they were resized because that happens when they're decapped), expanded to .431. On several of these (more than 5, less than 10) I set the bullet at the case mouth, pressed on it a bit to seat it, and was able to push the bullet into the case to seating depth without difficulty, just with a steady push. I ran these back through the resizing die, and tried again. Now I and was able to seat and load a bullet without expanding the case, but I needed to use the press to seat them. This is a Lee Classic turret press, usiing Lee dies that have loaded ~750 rounds.

So: what's up with that? Should it be that easy to push a bullet into a case, or is something wrong with that brass?

[Spammy_H]

When you say push a bullet into a case, do you mean that you are able to seat the bullet to its correct length by hand, without the use of a press, or that you can place the bullet into the case mouth and have it not fall out when turned upside down?

A proper case mouth expansion allows you to "press" the bullet into the case mouth by hand, and turn the case over, having the bullet not fall out, but no more.

How far are you able to "hand-seat" the bullet?

[JSmith]

When you say push a bullet into a case, do you mean that you are able to seat the bullet to its correct length by hand...

Yes. By pushing on it with my thumb.

How far are you able to "hand-seat" the bullet?

To 1.585" OAL. In other words, as deeply as I was seating all the others. I could've pushed it flush with the case mouth if I'd tried. These weren't expanded any more than the other cases in that batch of 100 (.431, for a .429 bullet.) That's the weird part - if I overexpanded I could see that happening, but I didn't.

[Spammy_H]

Yeah, something's definitely wrong. I'm guessing, and only guessing, that you are overexpanding. Not that you are expanding them too "wide", but setting the expansion plug to go too "deep".

You should just be belling the case mouth so that seating the bullet doesn't shave lead, but no more. If you're expanding more than that, you're going to mess with neck tension, probably resulting in what you are experiencing.

[rcmodel]

Take the expander plug out of the die and measure it.

The part that enters the case should be .002" - .03" smaller then bullet dia.

Lee often isn't.

If you need to make it smaller, chuck it in a drill and work it down with emery cloth while spinning it.

rc

[JSmith]

Spammy & RC, thanks for the suggestions, but I checked those things and that's not it. This isn't an ongoing issue, this is 6 or 7 random cases out of a batch of 100 where I could push the entire bullet into the case with thumb pressure. The cases are once-fired, and they loaded normally the last time i used them.

Let me ask a different question: have you ever had cases in the same lot that seemed soft or easily stretched compared to other cases?

[ReloaderFred]

Is "expanded to .431" your inside, or outside measurement? If inside, it's way too large to hold a .429" bullet. If outside, it doesn't tell you much without knowing the case wall thickness. If you're able to measure the case walls of the offending brass, that would tell you a lot.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Spammy_H]

Can you check the headstamps on the suspect brass? Are they a certain type or group? I haven't seen this happen personally, but I haven't reloaded for .44 Mag.

Stupid question time - are they grey colored (steel). Don't be offended, I just want to rule out everything possible.

[rcmodel]

Nobody has ever made .44 Mag with steel cases I am aware of.

rc

[Spammy_H]

I hadn't heard of one either, but just wanted to make sure.

[ATLDave]

I encountered this issue with some PPU 10mm brass, although it was more than once-fired. (I had a thread about it here 2-3 months ago.) Re-re-sizing didn't fix the problem, as the brass had become work-hardened and lost its springiness. Stopped using it and ordered some new Starline brass, which does not seem to have the same problem.

One possible explanation for the intermitancy of the problem might be that you've got one chamber in your revolver that's a little looser. The brass would expand more in that chamber, and re-sizing would involve correspondingly more work to the brass. Maybe that's causing enough work-hardening to lose tension. Consider loading 3-4 cylinders' worth, and carefully keep track of which cases came out of which chamber. See if there's any pattern to which cases develop the loss of tension problem.

[Spammy_H]

Dave - interesting concept of having 1 cylinder chamber being too big. Hadn't thought of that before.

I wonder if you could tell by inserting a round in each chamber separately, and seeing if there's any rattle by shaking the cylinder?

[JSmith]

Here's another one of those cases. Photo 1, bullet started. Photo 2, bullet seated. I held the ends of the case between my thumb and forefinger and pinched it. Even if I was overexpanding, it wouldn't affect the case that far down, would it?

Headstamp: "R - P 44 REM MAG"

[Spammy_H]

That's a Remington headstamp, and they usually make pretty good stuff. Weird.

Unless you're running the expansion plug the length of the bullet, no, that wouldn't cause your problem.

Another stupid question - the bullets are the right diameter, correct?

Are they all R-P headstamps? If so, maybe a bad lot of brass?

[rcmodel]

Take one that is loose, resize it, and don't expand it.

Then see if the bullet is still loose.

If it isn't loose, your expander plug is too big like I said in post #5.

If it is loose, your sizing die is over-size and not sizing the cases properly.

rc

[7075-T7]

Perhaps the sizing die isn't sizing them enough?

With my hornady dies (.44 magnum) there is an obvious line where the base of the seated bullet is (the rest of the case up to the web area is smaller) and I don't see that in the pictures. I'm also using R-P brass for the most part.

[JSmith]

That's a Remington headstamp, and they usually make pretty good stuff.

Yeah - just realized that's not the Winchester, this lot is a 100-case bag of Remington brass I bought last July.

If it is loose, your sizing die is over-size and not sizing the cases properly.

That's sort-of what I'm thinking. I can seat bullets in resized, non-expanded cases. I wonder why don't I have this issue with Winchester brass?

[rcmodel]

What kind of bullets are those?

I see no revolver crimp groove so assume they are plated bullets.

Measure a bunch of the bullets.

I have gotten .355", .356" and .357" 9mm bullets all in the same box of plated bullets once!!

rc

[7075-T7]

The Win brass I have for .44 seems to be a little thicker than the R-P brass. I have to expand it more than the R-P brass when I seat lead bullets to keep it from shaving lead.

[RustyFN]

Take the expander plug out of the die and measure it.

The part that enters the case should be .002" - .03" smaller then bullet dia.

Lee often isn't.

If you need to make it smaller, chuck it in a drill and work it down with emery cloth while spinning it.

rc

At least with Lee dies and straight walled pistol rounds the expansion is done in the powder die. All he has to do is back the die out a little to decrease the amount of flair. Shouldn't have to chuck anything in a drill.

So: what's up with that? Should it be that easy to push a bullet into a case, or is something wrong with that brass?

No you shouldn't be able to push the bullet in by hand. Sounds like too much flair.

[rcmodel]

Lets not confuse expanding with flairing or belling.

The Lee powder-through die is the expander first, then it becomes the flare or belling portion.

The part that goes inside the case is the expander, and if it is too big, you will have no case neck tension.

rc

[RustyFN]

Lets not confuse expanding with flairing or belling.

The Lee powder-through die is the expander first, then it becomes the flare or belling portion.

The part that goes inside the case is the expander, and if it is too big, you will have no case neck tension.

rc

So are you saying that the small straight piece that enters the case before the tapered piece that flairs the case is also supposed to expand the case? If so I did not know this. I have never felt resistance from that part.

[blarby]

What RC is stating is essentially true, as you can see in this attached pic of a lee 44 expander die with relevant pieces.

The belling stop is at the very end of the stroke. It is not very progressive- it is notable and abrupt at the end of the stroke.

If you have fully resized the brass in a correct resizer die, and applied the correct case expansion, you should need to seat the bullets with significant force.

Something is indeed, wrong.

The pieces you are looking at are the reason I use a combination of lee and lyman dies for 44 - I do not like the inaccuracy of the expander lee provided me. In addition to your size problems, the "travel" of the powder through expander causes all kinds of mayhem to the untrained. If it sticks in a certain spot while you are fine tuning the die, you can have variance issues on each piece of brass. Just like you are having now.

Mine is not in spec. It will provide the same issue you are describing, OP- it expands to .4315- far too large.

It accomplished this feat by being out of round not out of size. It was basically unfixable.

You can do as RC explains, or obtain a different expander die.

I love the lee sizer, with the "safety" decapping pin. I love the seater, with a one step VS two step approach. I hated the expander. The 44 set is one of many that I have found lacking, and one of the many reasons I take lee die problems with a grain of salt. Unlike most dies- at their heart, usually the problem ends up being the die- not the user.


Because of the travel ability in a LEE powder through expander die, the expander can be the exact diameter intended- yet be applied in the stroke at an angle not completely true- dramatically changing the diameter of the expanded case. In a perfectly formed die, applied by an expert hand, in a perfect world- this would never be an issue. Given the perpensity for non perfection in both the die, the user, and our world- I would ( and did ) buy a better die.

Easy test for this :

Take the expander die out of your quick change bushing.

Take the powder measure adapter off, so you can view the expander plug.

Shake it side to side, being careful not to shake it up and down.

Hear that rattle ? Thats your expander going side to side. Its not "true".

Stick your brass up in the die.

See how much clearance you have around the sides ? You can have that much "slop" in each round- allowing each one to be different.

Put these two together- and you have a recipe for inconsistency. Throw in a loosely cut shellholder, and you essentially have a slinky trying to stay a tube.

You could send it back to lee........ Or just go buy a better tool.

Guess which one I did ?

FWIW- if you get a really good shellholder, and a perfect expander plug from lee- you could make this work. I have never heard of anything "perfect" from lee- only good enough.

[RustyFN]

If you look at the first piece below the die body that is the piece I'm talking about. My impression was that the small flaired portion did the expanding and the straight part below it just acted as a powder funnel to keep powder from spilling.

[ATLDave]

If it is loose, your sizing die is over-size and not sizing the cases properly.

Or, as was the case for me, the brass had gone bad and just couldn't be resized effectively.

[rcmodel]

Well, I have been reloading for 50+ years and I have yet to see brass get so old it can't be resized.
If your sizing die is in spec and doing what it should do.

My experiance has been about 90% of the time this "no neck tension" problem is caused by an oversize expander.

The other 10% might be out of spec / thin brass, which seems to be getting more common today as manufactures try to cut corners everywhere there is a corner they can cut to save money.

They can make brass thinner, and make the case forming dies smaller to make the thinner brass fit the bullets.

But then it is too thin to size properly in a standard sizing die..

rc

[rcmodel]

My impression was that the small flared portion did the expanding and the straight part below it just acted as a powder funnelWell, Lee calls it a powder-through Expanding die for some reason.

Mr. Lees book goes on to explane that the sizing die makes the case too small for a bullet to enter it.

So the expander die is used to open it back up to just less then bullet diameter.

If you look at the picture, you can see brass rub-off on the expander portion of the stem where it has been expanding the cases.

rc

[blarby]

The "powder through" plug essentially allows the powder to flow through into the case- and at the end of that cases' travel out of the die... "taps" to agitate any powder stuck in the drop tube into the case.

If you aren't using a progressive reloader, or a powder drop that attaches to your press, this is a useless and difficulty inducing piece of tooling.

[243winxb]

I wonder why don't I have this issue with Winchester brass? Win. has thicker case walls?? :confused: It takes around 30 to 70 pounds of pressure to seat a bullet. (223 & 30-30)

[ATLDave]

Well, I have been reloading for 50+ years and I have yet to see brass get so old it can't be resized....
The other 10% might be out of spec / thin brass, which seems to be getting more common today as manufactures try to cut corners everywhere there is a corner they can cut to save money.

I don't know which was the problem for me. All I know is cases that previously had resized OK (at least twice) stopped taking a resize. Maybe that's because they were thin to start with and got stretched a little thinner. Maybe that's because of work-hardening or something else. But the same dies work well with other brass.

[JSmith]

What kind of bullets are those?

Berry's Plated Flat Point .44s. I measured several, diameter is a consistent .429

The part that goes inside the case is the expander, and if it is too big, you will have no case neck tension.

Resized case inside diameter is .425. Expander plug diameter is .427.

the "travel" of the powder through expander causes all kinds of mayhem

I drop charges out of the powder measure ( RCBS Uniflow) directly into the cases before bullet seating, not in the press.

It accomplished this feat by being out of round not out of size.

Out of round???? Really?! Now, that is something I hadn't looked at yet. I'll get back to you!

[blarby]

Resized case inside diameter is .425. Expander plug diameter is .427.

If this is indeed the case, and the bullets you are trying to seat are indeed .429- you are getting the slinky effect somewhere.


the "travel" of the powder through expander causes all kinds of mayhem
I drop charges out of the powder measure ( RCBS Uniflow) directly into the cases before bullet seating, not in the press.

Doesn't matter- the plug moves with or without a powder tube attached to it.


Even if your brass were tired, .427 should be the ID of your brass after expanding- not .430+- which would be required to push a bullet all the way flush with the case mouth using your finger.

[JSmith]

Well, that was interesting.

The resizer seems to be the part that's not right. Prizes to rcmodel and 7075-T7 for sugesting that yesterday afternoon.

I took everything apart and measured it this morning. First I checked the expander plug; it was in spec at .427 all the way around.

Resized (unexpanded) case diameters ranged from .424 measured one way, to .428-.430 measured another way. (I wish I had a fired, unresized round to measure.) So the inside of the resizer seems not to be perfectly circular. I tried inserting the expander plug from the die into a case by hand and it went in very easily all the way up to the belling flare. (See attached photo.)

The bullets are Berry's plated flat points. I measured a handful of them and they were all very uniform at .429. (See attached photo.) In that photo I'll draw your attention to the bottom edge - you'll see that it's slightly rounded. That's the part inside the case to the right. Then I tried seating the bullet by hand (see attached photo.)

AS a final check I took the .357 expander die apart and tried that plug on a resized case. Those cases are smaller diameter than the expander.

Implications: First, I appear to have a two-stage press: resize and seat. I haven't had problems shooting ammunition from that die set in the past. Will this situation be an issue? Should I crimp them just a little bit? And I guess I will want a new resizer sometime in the future, huh?

As always, guys, thanks for helping me sort this out!

[murf]

what is the outside diameter of your sized case?

murf

[JSmith]

Not sure. I loaded the rest of the batch so any measurement made now would be meaningless.

After I shoot a few of these I want to do a before-and-after-resizing set of measurements and then... I guess I'll call Lee about a replacement.

[Lost Sheep]

How much force should be required to seat a bullet?About 35 lbs according to post #3 in this thread
http://rugerforum.net/reloading/65863-lee-fcd-pistol-not-rifle-virtue-vice.html#post814465

The person who wrote the post is a retired gunsmith of considerable reputation going by the handle, "Iowegan".

In a heavy-recoiling load for a revolver, I would go more rather than less, lest unfired rounds jump crimp as their brothers are fired.

Lost Sheep

[James2]

If you look at the first piece below the die body that is the piece I'm talking about. My impression was that the small flaired portion did the expanding and the straight part below it just acted as a powder funnel to keep powder from spilling.

To clarify: That "small flaired portion" is the flaring part of the tool, and the "straight part below it" is the inside neck sizer. It is the diameter of this part that will determine your neck tension. As noted, if you are not getting enough tension, you can turn it down a little. What does it measure? What do your bullets measure? It must be a couple thou smaller than the bullet.

Yes it also acts as a powder funnel.

To properly adjust the die, you should screw the die in until you just get enough flare to allow the bullet to seat without shaving the bullet with the ram at full up. If you go any more than this you will reduce neck tension.

[murf]

alright, here goes. my lee sizing die squeezes the case down to .451". r-p cases have a neck thickness of between .011 to .0115 inches (we'll use .011" here). your bullet diameter is .429". your expander is .427" in diameter.

inside diameter of the r-p case after sizing (the expander is going to be too narrow to affect this calculation) is: the sized diameter of .451" less twice the neck thickness of .011" (.451-.022, or .429 inches).

bottom line: your bullet is the same diameter as the inside of your cases, or in other words, a press fit, or zero neck tension.

suggest you get some winchester or federal cases and an rcbs sizing die (squeezes the case down to .450"). at least you will have a little bit of case tension.

murf

[JSmith]

Murf, that sounds about right.

bottom line: your bullet is the same diameter as the inside of your cases, or in other words, a press fit, or zero neck tension

Which pretty accurately sums up what I'm seeing. I didn't have this issue with my Winchester brass, and I didn't see it with the R-P brass because this is the first time that lot has been resized.

Thanks!

[JSmith]

I just called my LGS; he has 3 bags of Win .44 mag brass for me. I'm going to leave that R-P brass in the trash can at the range just as soon as I fire them.

[Trent]

Too bad it's not a rifle, this is exactly the situation where neck sizers that take collets really shine.

I'm done with Remington brass. This last batch of 300 win mag I bought was so horribly inconsistent, next time I'm just going to "bite the bullet" and buy premium brass. 2x as much cost, sure, but 1/2 the damn headache.

Neck turning this batch of brass I bought, one side of the case is .003 THICKER than the other side! You don't even need to MEASURE it, you can SEE the difference in thickness with the naked eye it's so different!

I cut a case off at different lengths to measure the case all the way to the base in increments, the cases are very consistently thicker ALL the way down one side, than the other side.

Irritating. Knowing that I have half of my case weakened all the way to the webbing is just ... a little nerve wracking.

Anyway Remington needs to step their game up.