Would you now see a psychologist?


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valnar
February 1, 2013, 03:50 PM
Simply put, with even minor mental health issues being a factor that can exclude you from purchasing a firearm (eg. such as temporary bout of depression, like from a divorce), would you purposely stay away from a psychologist or psychiatrist these days?

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umadcuzimstylin
February 1, 2013, 03:58 PM
I would stay away.

I was sent to a psychiatrist long ago by my parents. I was drinking two 40oz beers a week and because hes a Muslim where drinking alcohol is against their religion he sent me to rehab and diagnosed me with depression. Ive never felt like I had depression and now its documented somewhere same with going to rehab which makes me look like a drug addict. The system is a joke!

Teachu2
February 1, 2013, 04:00 PM
Yes

I was sent to a psychiatrist long ago by my parents. I was drinking two 40oz beers a week and because hes a Muslim where drinking alcohol is against their religion he sent me to rehab and diagnosed me with depression. Ive never felt like I had depression and now its documented somewhere same with going to rehab which makes me look like a drug addict. The system is a joke!
Yeah, but you were nine years old! :evil:

bushmaster1313
February 1, 2013, 04:01 PM
Psychology is the "jock itch" of the soul.

ATLDave
February 1, 2013, 04:01 PM
Like many well-intentioned regulations, I worry that the new focus on denying (gun) rights to the mentally ill will have precisely the perverse effect you predict, valnar.

If I were going to do one thing to reduce the number of mass shootings, I would offer parents of young, bright, but very troubled young men some form of mental health assistance that does NOT threaten to ruin their child's life. Right now, the choice is between seeking committment, which ruins the future for the (adult) child, and doing nothing, which risks terrible and insane outbursts of violence. Making the former choice MORE punitive doesn't fix the bad dynamic.

Ryanxia
February 1, 2013, 04:06 PM
Not that I've ever felt the need but I've been paranoid about this for years and I sure as heck wouldn't go now even if needed.

CoRoMo
February 1, 2013, 04:08 PM
Yes, I'd avoid the psych help and instead go with an informal counselor such as can be found in almost any church.

Sol
February 1, 2013, 04:09 PM
Heh alcohol is halal to me...sometimes.

wooly bugger
February 1, 2013, 04:12 PM
I'd go, but I'd pay out of pocket so there would be no record. Most antidepressants are now generic, so I'd pay for those out of pocket if I needed them. Psychiatrists can do a lot of good, and some people really benefit.

The sad thing about this increased stigmatization is, it will probably INCREASE shootings. Instead of people who feel something is wrong getting help, they'll be afraid for the negative effects on their future.

Unintended consequences.

bushmaster1313
February 1, 2013, 04:13 PM
Yes. I'd go with an informal counselor such as can be found in almost any church.

Why do you say "informal"?

Isn't ministering to the needs and well-being their flock exactly what they are trained to do?

Batty67
February 1, 2013, 04:14 PM
I used to feel that way, but I've had a few close friends and family members who got hit hard in the past few years by life events, and were predisposed to anxiety and depression. Seeing the pschiatrists and psychologists helped immensely, including anti-depression/anxiety medicines. They do important work and help people.

BHP FAN
February 1, 2013, 04:15 PM
no way, no how.

CoRoMo
February 1, 2013, 04:17 PM
bushmaster...
I was trying to differentiate the clinical "psych industry" physicians with what you might find in a church's counseling ministry. I don't know if labeling it 'informal' is the right way to say that or not, but that's how I was trying to separate the medical help found in one location from the personal help found in the other (if that even does a better job of explaining what I'm trying to say). As you can see, I edited my post before getting away from it because I could tell that it needed a little more substance.

xxjumbojimboxx
February 1, 2013, 04:17 PM
Why pay a co-pay when I can buy some ammo? :neener:

valnar
February 1, 2013, 04:23 PM
I have no problems that can't be solved by a couple of beers with good friends.

But yes, I do feel bad for people with more serious issues and I hope these new laws don't sway them from getting the help they need. After they recover though, the stigma attached to them can be just as damaging...and they may have to give up their guns.

hso
February 1, 2013, 04:45 PM
No "minor mental health issues" factor into the discussion. That's a mythical scare tactic. No criteria has been set so no one can predict what criteria will be set.

We need to stick to the facts if we want to be taken seriously.

bushmaster1313
February 1, 2013, 04:48 PM
Sunnyslopes:

I would welcome an explanation of why I am wrong.

ApacheCoTodd
February 1, 2013, 05:18 PM
Psych-iatrist/ologist especially after the Obama Care record swapping&shopping frenzies start are a definite no-go for me and mine if at all avoidable.

CmdrSlander
February 1, 2013, 05:21 PM
I'm torn. I'm an atheist and a man of science so I don't really have anywhere else to turn but psychiatry (I can't seek religious counsel, etc.) but I get the feeling that the field borrows a little to heavily from pseudoscience.

And I don't want my guns taken from me. That isn't paramount but is a consideration.

horsemen61
February 1, 2013, 05:24 PM
I would not go to one before and Now I defiantly won't go because It might be used against me. :fire:

Rembrandt
February 1, 2013, 05:24 PM
Wouldn't want to be in the military and be diagnosed with PTSD......that would be a red flag the gun grabbers will look for.

10mm Mike
February 1, 2013, 05:31 PM
I'm torn. I'm an atheist and a man of science so I don't really have anywhere else to turn but psychiatry (I can't seek religious counsel, etc.) but I get the feeling that the field borrows a little to heavily from pseudoscience.

And I don't want my guns taken from me. That isn't paramount but is a consideration.

Then turn to a trustworthy relative or close friend... unless you're having something on the level of suicidal thoughts. Then you're just going to have to "bite the bullet" and seek professional help of some sort, lest you actually bit the bullet.

M-Cameron
February 1, 2013, 05:31 PM
I'm torn. I'm an atheist and a man of science so I don't really have anywhere else to turn but psychiatry (I can't seek religious counsel, etc.) but I get the feeling that the field borrows a little to heavily from pseudoscience.

2 things:

1) psychology IS a pseudo-science....now i dont mean to put down psychology(i study it informally myself).....but the fact is, you cannot accurately call it a science, as there are no real 'facts', nothing is set in stone, and experiments are not repeatable with accuracy...in chemistry, component A + component B always equals Component C.....in psychology, what may be classified a mental illness today, may be perfectly normal in 100 years ( look at homosexuality)

2) not wanting to turn this into a religious debate......but even though you are an atheist, there is no reason you cannot seek religious council. good advice is good advice, regardless of whether it comes from a priest, rabbi, monk, ect. just be honest with them and youll find most are pretty accepting of people of a different belief from their own.

CmdrSlander
February 1, 2013, 05:48 PM
2 things:

1) psychology IS a pseudo-science....now i dont mean to put down psychology(i study it informally myself).....but the fact is, you cannot accurately call it a science, as there are no real 'facts', nothing is set in stone, and experiments are not repeatable with accuracy...in chemistry, component A + component B always equals Component C.....in psychology, what may be classified a mental illness today, may be perfectly normal in 100 years ( look at homosexuality)

2) not wanting to turn this into a religious debate......but even though you are an atheist, there is no reason you cannot seek religious council. good advice is good advice, regardless of whether it comes from a priest, rabbi, monk, ect. just be honest with them and youll find most are pretty accepting of people of a different belief from their own.
I see your point on the religious counsel thing... I just meant if I was going through a trauma its not like I could "find strength in the lord" (which, I understand, can help many people and I am not bashing it) or some such thing.

Ehtereon11B
February 1, 2013, 05:58 PM
I have an inherent distrust of any person who tries to get inside my head to understand my thinking. In my experience, none of them care about actually helping the patient and more about some ulterior motive. In this case finding someone broken to report. In the past 6 years I have been instructed to see over 15 mental health professionals. All of them poked and prodded to try and find something to scribble down on their notepad. They never got an inch from me. Never will.

Coop45
February 1, 2013, 06:01 PM
Isn't it like synchronized swimming with no real way to be scored?

doc2rn
February 1, 2013, 06:22 PM
I went to one once, after one session with me he quit the profession. Medical professionals are always the hardest ones to treat. =)

steelerdude99
February 1, 2013, 07:58 PM
There is a big difference between psychologist and psychiatrist. It's a psychiatrist that diagnoses and treats mental illness while a psychologist is a researcher. A psychiatrist can prescribe drugs; almost always a psychologist can't. I looked up the terms and below is a comparison. I added the almost always as two states now permit psychologist to prescribe drugs.

http://psychology.about.com/od/psychotherapy/f/psychvspsych.htm

chuck

Solo
February 1, 2013, 08:48 PM
tl;dr a psychiatrist has an MD, a psychologist has a Ph.D.

gym
February 1, 2013, 08:54 PM
Iffy and spotty at best, All my clients in either lines of work, "when I had the beauty salon chain" were shrinks, More than 80% were divorced, getting high, or hsving wife swapping sessions with other shrinks.
Sometimes when you have too much money, you think you have a problem. These guys make you feel better by lightening your wallett.

wickedsprint
February 1, 2013, 08:54 PM
Nope.

RTR_RTR
February 1, 2013, 09:16 PM
The anti-mental health provider stand that many take on this board saddens me. Being "people", MHP's are going to be a mixed group of variable "quality" just like any other. I hope the view is mostly a generational one

Edit: With regard to the OP's question, I don't know if it would deter me or not, but I know it will deter plenty, so I stand against it (along with many MHP's) for that reason. Well intended and poorly conceived

4v50 Gary
February 1, 2013, 09:17 PM
Talk to the dog or cat. That seems to work for me.

hq
February 1, 2013, 09:26 PM
Simply put, with even minor mental health issues being a factor that can exclude you from purchasing a firearm (eg. such as temporary bout of depression, like from a divorce), would you purposely stay away from a psychologist or psychiatrist these days?

A system like this has been tried in Finland for almost two years now and it has proven to be a total disaster. While you're not required to disclose the ownership of firearms to medical professionals, they're required by law to report ANYONE who displays even the slightest symptoms of behavior that might lead to violence.

Including mild depression.

Doctors, especially psychologists and psychiatrists hate the law, they get in trouble and can even lose their license if they fail to report. Undeniable fact that a patient's behavior can't be predicted without an extensive diagnosis has been ignored by the legislators, doctors are ENCOURAGED to report anyone, even on a whim, and the whole system has become a joke. All prescriptions of certain drugs are monitored, including muscle relaxants - personally I outright refused to have Oxycontin and Temazepan prescriptions a few years ago (for pain and sleeping aid, I got burned pretty badly); it was much easier to bite your lip and endure the pain than to get yourself in a national database of strong painkiller and psychoactive medicated gun owners.

Interestingly enough, I'm a hypnotherapist / master hypnotist and at the moment exempt from any obligation of reporting my clients, but currently there's some legislative pressure to include all clinically qualified professionals under the same requirement. This is getting worse all the time; no-one in their right mind is going to fail to report people who clearly are violent, but the legislation wants to remove the case by case discretion.

Isaac-1
February 1, 2013, 09:48 PM
I would have to say it depends on the situation, over reaction and allowing law makers and beuracrats catagorize dangerous and non dangerous mental conditions does worry me, however at the same time I have seen otherwise normal seeming adults suddenly develop seemingly serious mental problems, some that can been treated either through management couseling or through medicaction, sometimes it may even be caused by medication they are taking. As an example about 10 years ago my now wife was prescribed a medication used to treat a common chronic condition (I don't remember exactly what, may be blood pressure, or similar, nothing related to mental health, depression, etc.), after being on this medication for less than a week she became extremely emtional, cryinging for no reason, etc., she called the doctor the prescribed the medication, he insisted the crying was not a side effect, thankfully she ignored him, stopped taking it and within 24 -48 hours the uncontrollable crying was gone. I can just imagine the mental health circus that could have resulted if she had not associated the crying with the new medication.

PBR Streetgang
February 1, 2013, 09:56 PM
Years ago my employer sent us to see the "shrink" every year.About three years into it, the Doc had a nervous breakdown and they stopped sending us at that point.

True story......

Dr_B
February 1, 2013, 10:03 PM
Well, first @ M-Cameron, psychology is NOT a pseudoscience. If you care to further disagree then we will have words. One does not have to deal in absolute tangible facts in order to have a science. You are underestimating the extent to which even the hard sciences are based on theory.

Second, would I see a psychologist if it affected my 2nd Amendment rights? No. I AM a psychologist and I don't think we have any right to determine contingencies of a person's rights.

jolly roger
February 1, 2013, 10:14 PM
NOTHING in 50+ years that my wife, a good pastor or two, a good dog or lap cat, and good friends have not been able to help me through. I think the MHP game is a crutch most, not all...of the time, much like over prescribed pain killers and ADD meds. I've worked 2 psychologist suicides btw...

Now..the time I smashed most of my teeth out in a wreck and broke my jaw I NEEDED those Percosets...for a mere two days. Sucked it up the next few months.

gym
February 1, 2013, 10:21 PM
The fact is you will go on a list. You won't know who sees that list, or what may come of it. unless you are really a mentally ill person, you should stay off it.
Doctors protocall for anyone who is in pain management is to see a shrink, after 6 months of pain, "because you must be depressed by then", as told to me by a pain management doctor many years ago.
She just said because you have to be depressed.
This is the kind of nonsense that can lead a person who may not realize that they are being manipulated to go be a list.
Being in pain and being depressed are 2 different things. Many people have severe medical problems that require various treatment, but are not depressed.
In FL if you get a prescription for a pain medication, as you check out, it asks if you would like to see a psych. "that's just strange", you need to accept or decline prior to paying. This is another scheme to invade your privacy, it has nothing to do with your tooth ache, or back problem, just an excuse to further pry into your personell life. And Obamacare
I just laugh, and hope people see this for what it is, an invasion of privacy.

Solo
February 1, 2013, 10:22 PM
Well, first @ M-Cameron, psychology is NOT a pseudoscience. If you care to further disagree then we will have words. One does not have to deal in absolute tangible facts in order to have a science. You are underestimating the extent to which even the hard sciences are based on theory.
Even physics has gone from the Newtonian model to Einstein's relativity, to quantum mechanics, and now strange theories such as string theory or quantum loop gravity. Each new model has changed the way we viewed the universe... but that does not mean physics is a pseudoscience, or that Newton was a hack.

Onward Allusion
February 1, 2013, 10:25 PM
Let's just call 'em a mental health professional... There are so many shades of gray with the profession. Psychologist, Psychiatrist, Therapist, LCSW, LMFT, LPCC...etc...etc...

With the current insanity, the only way I would see one is if I'd paid with Ca$h and not any kind of health insurance or government subsidized program. It's so easy for someone to be suffering a short-term bout of S.A.D or life issues (divorce, death, illness) to be labeled as unstable. To easy for a mental health professional to do a knee-jerk and report nothing as something.

RTR_RTR
February 1, 2013, 11:05 PM
The fact is you will go on a list. You won't know who sees that list, or what may come of it. unless you are really a mentally ill person, you should stay off it.
Doctors protocall for anyone who is in pain management is to see a shrink, after 6 months of pain, "because you must be depressed by then", as told to me by a pain management doctor many years ago.
She just said because you have to be depressed.
This is the kind of nonsense that can lead a person who may not realize that they are being manipulated to go be a list.
Being in pain and being depressed are 2 different things. Many people have severe medical problems that require various treatment, but are not depressed.
In FL if you get a prescription for a pain medication, as you check out, it asks if you would like to see a psych. "that's just strange", you need to accept or decline prior to paying. This is another scheme to invade your privacy, it has nothing to do with your tooth ache, or back problem, just an excuse to further pry into your personell life. And Obamacare
I just laugh, and hope people see this for what it is, an invasion of privacy.

1) Chronic pain is a significant risk factor for depression

2) Chronic pain has a significant mental component to it, whether we're talking about pain and a comorbid psychiatric disorder or not. Psychotherapy has been demonstrated to have reasonable efficacy in chronic pain management, and it comes without the sequelae of narcotics (or any medication for that disorder) which generally are not even indicated in chronic non-malignant pain regardless.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304395998002553

If (when, really) I find myself in chronic pain that I have difficulty managing, I will be pursuing psychotherapy

10mm Mike
February 1, 2013, 11:12 PM
Well, first @ M-Cameron, psychology is NOT a pseudoscience. If you care to further disagree then we will have words. One does not have to deal in absolute tangible facts in order to have a science. You are underestimating the extent to which even the hard sciences are based on theory.

Shame that all of the big players in real scientific fields disagree with you. Hell, they even got upset at Computer Science and want it to be considered a subset of engineering rather than science, and therefore change its name from Computer Science to Computer Engineering or Software Engineering.

Hardtarget
February 1, 2013, 11:29 PM
I would not willingly go to any kind of psych doctor. I would not even go to the counselor at my church.

Every time I fill out a questionaire at a Dr's office there is a "are you depressed" line. Well... "NO" ! I'm as happy as any one person could be.

Mark

M-Cameron
February 1, 2013, 11:38 PM
Well, first @ M-Cameron, psychology is NOT a pseudoscience. If you care to further disagree then we will have words. One does not have to deal in absolute tangible facts in order to have a science. You are underestimating the extent to which even the hard sciences are based on theory.


dont think for an instant i am trying to discredit Psychology.....im not trying to insinuate that psychology is a bunch of tom-foolery hippy mumbo-jumbo....i genuinely feel it is a very important area of study( like i said, i study it myself) and for the most part doesnt get the respect it deserves.

that being said, one would have a hard time classifying it as a "science".......its really more of an "art of interpretation that utilizes scientific principals".


take for instance chemistry......we know water consists of 2 Hydrogen atoms and 1 Oxygen atom.....if you took a sample of water to any chem lab in the world you would get that same answer.


what about a person with some mental illness.....you could take them to 10 different doctors and get 10 different possible diagnoses......there are guidelines, but there are no hard fast rules for what symptoms equate to what mental illness.

now i suppose one could make the argument that medical technology has not yet currently advanced far enough for doctors to be able to make accurate diagnoses....and that would be a fair argument. perhaps in 20 years, medical technology will advance far enough to allow us to more accurately map the brain, decode DNA, and be able to find specific markers only prevalent in those with a certain mental illness.....

so perhaps i misspoke earlier....a more accurate statement would be that for the time being, psychology is a pseudo-science.

Romeo 33 Delta
February 2, 2013, 12:13 AM
Are you NUTS?

goon
February 2, 2013, 12:21 AM
Agreed. Mental health reforms should be done in such a way that safe people recieving treament or those who have effectively been diagnosed and treated should not have their rights stripped.

And once you're on a list, effective treatment should get you off of it.

Vurtle
February 2, 2013, 12:36 AM
I will never give my money to a fruitcake. I would much rather take advice from elders who have worked their knuckles into the ground because they suffer from a case of strong back and most likely suffer from strong character and lessons learned from experience. I have found strong guidance from men like this when troubled times have occurred in my life. Most of those men were Christians even though I usually refer to myself as an agnostic theist.

Fruitquacks most likely have very little real personal experience of the troubles they try to help others with and most of the ones I have known seemed to suffer from weird personality traits that made them look out of touch with reality. It is kinda like the broke buddy who always has financial advice for others.

So no, fruitquacks will get none of my attention and especially not now.

RTR_RTR
February 2, 2013, 12:55 AM
I will never give my money to a fruitcake. I would much rather take advice from elders who have worked their knuckles into the ground because they suffer from a case of strong back and most likely suffer from strong character and lessons learned from experience. I have found strong guidance from men like this when troubled times have occurred in my life. Most of those men were Christians even though I usually refer to myself as an agnostic theist.

Fruitquacks most likely have very little real personal experience of the troubles they try to help others with and most of the ones I have known seemed to suffer from weird personality traits that made them look out of touch with reality. It is kinda like the broke buddy who always has financial advice for others.

So no, fruitquacks will get none of my attention and especially not now.

You discredit MHP's both for "not being able to help another due to not having been in his shoes" while also faulting them for "having issues of their own." Your biases are showing. Although the "fruitcakes" was another hint ;)

A strong individual is one willing to accept help for a problem he cannot sufficiently conquer on his own. It's a disgusting marginalization of mental illness to refer to seeking care as a weakness of character.

Alaska444
February 2, 2013, 01:00 AM
I'd go, but I'd pay out of pocket so there would be no record. Most antidepressants are now generic, so I'd pay for those out of pocket if I needed them. Psychiatrists can do a lot of good, and some people really benefit.

The sad thing about this increased stigmatization is, it will probably INCREASE shootings. Instead of people who feel something is wrong getting help, they'll be afraid for the negative effects on their future.

Unintended consequences.
Sorry, but all medical encounters MUST be documented. It is malpractice and negligence not to record the encounter. I am a retired doc, so yes, I know the rules.

xxjumbojimboxx
February 2, 2013, 01:02 AM
Shame that all of the big players in real scientific fields disagree with you. Hell, they even got upset at Computer Science and want it to be considered a subset of engineering rather than science, and therefore change its name from Computer Science to Computer Engineering or Software Engineering.
Hm. I'd like to clear something up here... Now, im obviously not saying this is a be all end all here. But i do have a BS in Psychology. What most of us are reffering to is a very small part of what psychology actually is. What we're generally talking about here is called abnormal psychology (Dunno if my terminology will be correct as I have been out of school for about 5 years now.) The reason this portion of the field is so wishy washy is because most of what we here about it is in fact wishy washy. We see skewed news reports that use specifically incorrect analysis of variables and we latch on to that as a science. Anyone who spend any time actually getting an education in regards to psychology will tell you this. There are SOLID facts in the feild of psychology. Their just based on likelyhoods :)... Lets take classical conditioning for example in the case of pavlov's dogs... This being a very basic case study many of you will know about it. Its based on the psychology of association. Basically pavlov would ring a bell before he fed his dogs. At first, the dogs only salivated at the sight of food, or smell more likely. Now, pavlov would ring the bell before feedings. He soon found that by ringing the bell alone he could bring the dogs to salivate because they asociated that sound with food coming. Thats psychology too folks. Be it "behavioral psych" which is a subset of the field. We all talk about the fight or flight response right? as were always talking about defending outselves on this site... Well one could argue that the action of the response is purley physiological. Which I wouldnt argue with. But the conclusion we draw as a reult of the knee jerk reaction, to fight, or flight, well thats purely psychological in the behavioral form.


To conclude, most of the things we find out in the field of psycology are displayed in such a way; "we can detirmine within a 5% (sometime as low as 1 percent by adjusting for "power") Margin of error that when variable A is introduced, variable B is effected in a significant way"

No, thats not a fact, but its as close to face as we can get without a crystal ball. And we can make smart assumtions based on those figures.

Bobson
February 2, 2013, 01:07 AM
[Psychology] is about as stable as a leaf in the wind.

I wouldn't go see a psychologist regardless.
Same here, same reason.

Any counseling I think I need, whether it be general advice, depression, or anything in between, I get from my pastor. Not about to change that.

Vurtle
February 2, 2013, 01:10 AM
I agree it takes a strong man to admit he is weak and needs guidance. I just believe that guidance should come from those well experienced with a track record of true grit. I also understand that not everyone has these kind of men in their life and they are not sure of where to turn to find these kind of people. Therefore they usually refer to the yellow pages. I hope people seek these kind of men and surround themselves with them so when the chips are down, they know who to turn to. There are also predators among these crowds looking for weak people to abuse for their own selfish greeds. I have also been burned by these types of people and my radar for them is better now. Not perfect, but improved.
Please don't confuse people who have walked in their shoes with people having weird personalities. I could see how one might assume that they could be linked.
For the record, I started off as a psych major and got away from that major pretty quick. There are some very wacky people in this world wanting to influence others in their decisions. Not all of them though, just the ones I encountered. I also have friends and family in this profession.

RTR_RTR
February 2, 2013, 01:29 AM
I agree it takes a strong man to admit he is weak and needs guidance. I just believe that guidance should come from those well experienced with a track record of true grit. I also understand that not everyone has these kind of men in their life and they are not sure of where to turn to find these kind of people. Therefore they usually refer to the yellow pages. I hope people seek these kind of men and surround themselves with them so when the chips are down, they know who to turn to. There are also predators among these crowds looking for weak people to abuse for their own selfish greeds. I have also been burned by these types of people and my radar for them is better now. Not perfect, but improved.
Please don't confuse people who have walked in their shoes with people having weird personalities. I could see how one might assume that they could be linked.
For the record, I started off as a psych major and got away from that major pretty quick. There are some very wacky people in this world wanting to influence others in their decisions. Not all of them though, just the ones I encountered. I also have friends and family in this profession.

There are wacky gun owners, pastors, priests, etc. too, but I'm not misrepresenting a vast minority as the majority. I think you have a flawed idea of the purpose a MHP serves - they are not there to serve as a role model for patients, but rather to facilitate their return to healthy daily life by using modalities (CBT, systematic desensitization, pharmacotherapy, etc.) that others are not as well versed in.

Isaac-1
February 2, 2013, 04:42 AM
I think it is important to seperate those things that we generally consider emotional issues, from those things that are caused by brain chemistry. As well as those that may be harmful to themselves and others from those that may have a nervous tick or other similar condition

As to the state of the science think of a case of an otherwise normal acting adult male with a stable life style, etc. suddenly starts to hear voices in his head, this happened to a guy I have known for over half my life. After much testing the doctors have said they don't know why this happened, but the thing I really found shocking to learn was that the doctors have no idea why about 1/3 of people that hear voices in their heads hear them. (note in the case of this guy it is not the stereotypical voices telling him to do stuff, instead from what he tells me it is is more like a running commentary in the background that fades in and out often saying gibberish phrases like "and the duck went for a walk to the left") To me this guy seems fairly harmless, at least on the topic of mental illness, although I will admit he has been known to have a bit of a temper, particularly in his younger years, but I think that is probably true of most of us to one level or another.

By contrast I had a relative by marraige that often gave me the feeling he could go off at any random time, he was bi-polar, even with medication his stability slowly spiraled out of control over a number of years to the point where he could not function in society, went from a guy that ran his own sucessful business with as many as a dozen employees, to a guy that could not keep a job selling furniture and finally ended up on some type of disabilty.

General Geoff
February 2, 2013, 05:22 AM
I think it is important to seperate those things that we generally consider emotional issues, from those things that are caused by brain chemistry. As well as those that may be harmful to themselves and others from those that may have a nervous tick or other similar condition
Emotion is brain chemistry. Doctors and psychiatrists are just hung up on what constitutes "normal" amounts of certain chemicals vs abnormal chemical imbalances, which could be caused by genetic or other physiological differences. The only reason it matters at all is because humans are by and large social creatures, and a person who has a thought process or perception vastly different from those around him/her, there can be a social disconnect and thus prompt said person to be labeled dysfunctional.

How do you draw the line between normal and abnormal? Most current mental "disorders" are defined simply by taking a particular mental trait, and tacking on "adversely affects the individual's life." So in other words, a person could be an absolute nutcase internally, but if they blend well, they'll never even become a blip on the radar, unless and until they snap.

XD 45acp
February 2, 2013, 06:50 AM
When I think about this topic, I am reminded of my Miranda Rights "Anything you say can be used against you" SO,... pass on the psyc Doctor...

Ragnar Danneskjold
February 2, 2013, 07:34 AM
No. Absolutely not. I am in the military and have seen firsthand how much damage can be done to ones life through even one conversation about mental health with someone in authority. No matter what they tell you, in the military, chaplains, medics, doctors, DoD health care providers, etc all work for the US Military first. And thus they always put the needs of the Army first. But they say that you come first in order to trick you into opening up. It happens over and over. A soldier is going through some stuff and talks to the chaplain or someone in his chain of command, and before he even knows what's going on he's being pulled off missions, having his weapon taken away, put into forced counseling, even being reclassed or kicked out of the military.

Military MHPs are NOT there to help you. They are there to identify "problem" soldiers and get them out as quickly as possible. What does that have to do with us as gun owners? Well if laws are passed, either through ObamaCare or through gun control legislation, you will see the same sort of thing happen to civilian MHPs. They won't be working for you, they will be working for Uncle Scam. And anything you tell them in confidence, will end up being put on some list or database and used against you.

The ONLY way any sort of mental health assistance will ever work is if seeking it is separated from life-consequences. As long as there is a sliver of a chance that even mentioning mental issues to even nurse will end up written down and filed away, you're better off keeping your mouth shut. Mental health and state-imposed limitations should never ever ever come into contact with one another. Ever. And as long as they do, avoid MHPs like the plague.

M-Cameron
February 2, 2013, 08:08 AM
Agreed. Mental health reforms should be done in such a way that safe people recieving treament or those who have effectively been diagnosed and treated should not have their rights stripped.

And once you're on a list, effective treatment should get you off of it.

well thats the problem, the fact that you might be put on a list in the first place is often grounds enough to prevent many people from seeking the treatment they need....and to me, it would seem treating them would be more effective at stopping any proposed crime( as people with mental illness are FAR more likely to either be victims of crime, or hurt themselves rather than hurt other people) they may commit.

mental illness is just that....an illness.

if you though you had cancer, wouldnt you go to a doctor to have them check it out?

so why are so many people so reluctant to go if they feel they have depression/ bipolar/ ect?

and barring any extremely serious conditions, i generally do not feel having a mental illness in its self should be grounds for having a right removed.....thousands of people walk around with bipolar/ depression/ ect....and they for the most part live normal lives and you probably wouldnt notice anything unless they told you.

gp911
February 2, 2013, 09:06 AM
I work in the mental health field myself and have an M.S. in general psychology. There are specific diagnostic criteria for all mental health diagnoses. The subjective part where the MHP interprets the answers they receive in the clinical interview is where the danger lies because people have biases and while MHPs are supposed to be vigilant about them they are still human and make errors. Also, the part that concerns me about all the recent talk about gun ownership and mental health is that some politician with no MH experience may create a list of disqualifying conditions for gun rights that includes "disorders" that are totally normal parts of the human experience such as bereavement or adjustment disorders from chronic pain, etc. Then that paranoia about lists and seeking help is 100% valid. Also one poster noted their experience with the military and I've seen that firsthand as well. They take soldiers' rights away in ways one never sees in the civilian world. On pain meds? No driving for you, doesn't matter if you're a single mother, go ride the bus with your kid. No exaggeration there, give somebody a little power...

Ragnar Danneskjold
February 2, 2013, 09:18 AM
if you though you had cancer, wouldnt you go to a doctor to have them check it out?

so why are so many people so reluctant to go if they feel they have depression/ bipolar/ ect?

Because there are no politicians talking about infringing people's Constitutional Rights for seeking cancer treatment. There are not bills being drafted that would put cancer patients on a watch list.

BSA1
February 2, 2013, 09:49 AM
Like some of other posters I also have a strong educational background (college degree, blah, blah) and many years (20+) of experience in the mental health field.

Sometimes discussion forums provide good information and others, like this one, is so rife with misinformation as to discredit the forum.

One of the biggest misconceptions discussed here is that you have to be mentally ill to see a MHP. This is totally false. Mental counseling can be used to help a person deal with major issues in their life such as dealing with the loss of a loved one, relationship problems with a significant other and family, or longer term issues like serious medical illness such as cancer.

I can’t begin how many times in my life I have heard someone, especially teenagers, state they just want someone to really listen to them. Those that say they will never go see a MHP but go to a bar for a few beers with their friends. They go to the bar and discuss problems they be having with a supervisor at work, problems with their spouse or with one of their kids, etc. Sometimes the buddies in the group offer advice based on their real world experience or they may do nothing more than just listen to you.

Just like beer buddies a good counselor is a good listener only in different setting. They will not only listen to the patient’s comments but will ask questions to bring out more information. This is not “crawling inside one’s head’ but intended to help both the counselor and the patient gain a clearer picture of the issues they are affecting them. The counselor after gaining enough information will offer suggestions for the patient to consider to address the issues they are concerned about.

There is no “silver bullet.” Every person is different and every situation is different. What works for me may not work for you but by being provided with information the patient will have different options to deal with their issues that they did not know about before.

Bianchi?
February 2, 2013, 09:57 AM
With the government continuing to poke their nose further and further into my health care and history, I will not see a psychologist. Well, willingly at least. You could probably force me into the office. But that's about it.

ball3006
February 2, 2013, 10:00 AM
In the first place, why would I go see one? chris3

M-Cameron
February 2, 2013, 10:01 AM
Because there are no politicians talking about infringing people's Constitutional Rights for seeking cancer treatment.There are not bills being drafted that would put cancer patients on a watch list.


well yes......but even assuming they were.......would you still postpone cancer treatment at the risk of being black listed?

perhaps cancer is a bad analogy, as most mental illnesses are typically not directly fatal.....

this is really more of a quality of life question........lets compare it to being paralyzed.

now i dont condone any new regulations regarding banning rights to those with certain illnesses.....but lets assume for now that is the case.

would you seek treatment for paralysis( mental illness) if it meant you could potentially lose you ability to own a gun?

i dont know the answer, ide imagine it would depend upon the extent of your paralysis( mental illness) and how much of an impact it had on your life....

steelerdude99
February 2, 2013, 10:25 AM
My worry is that the main way of treating mental health conditions is with drugs. Depression and even less problematic problems are treated with drugs. By the way, "shyness" is now considered a treatable condition. The trails have documented possible side-effects and the possible side-effects are weighed against the benefits. But the tests do not include a large enough sample to document all side-effects as maybe only one person exhibited the side affect. The drug company may conclude that the less prevalent side-effect may just be a coincidence as they rush to get to market. Another "by the way", the results of unreleased studies are heavily guarded. Said differently, the study found a problem that the drug company did not want the public to know about.

Without drug treatment a depressed person wants to stay in bad all day with the covers over their head. With drugs, they want to kill themselves. Which is worse?

See link and quote: http://www.helpguide.org/mental/medications_depression.htm

chuck



Antidepressant medication and suicide risk


There is a danger that, in some people, antidepressant treatment will cause an increase, rather than a decrease, in depression—and with it, an increased risk of suicide. While this is particularly true of children and young adults on antidepressant medication, anyone taking antidepressants should be closely watched for suicidal thoughts and behaviors. The suicide risk is particularly great during the first one to two months of antidepressant treatment.

Monitoring is especially important if this is the person’s first time on depression medication or if the dose has recently been changed. Signs that medication is making things worse include anxiety, insomnia, hostility, and extreme agitation—particularly if the symptoms appear suddenly or rapidly deteriorate. If you spot the warning signs in yourself or a loved one, contact your doctor or therapist immediately.

If you are concerned that a friend or family member is contemplating suicide, see Understanding and Helping a Suicidal Person.

gspn
February 2, 2013, 11:16 AM
Not that I've ever felt the need but I've been paranoid about this for years and I sure as heck wouldn't go now even if needed.


Dude...that's funny.

gym
February 2, 2013, 11:18 AM
If a shrink never had a gun stuck in their face while a loved one was tied up, they can't possiblly understand what you think or do in such a case. My life experiences are so vast that if I tried to explain some of the things that happened in my life, they would need their shrink.
I don't care what they learned in school, until you have experienced some of the life lessons, like shoot outs and violent beings, you really can't ask or tell anyone what to do.
That also hold true if you are missing half your spine, or have been in a half dozen business that were sucessfull starting with a 60 dollar a week job, and owning a ferrari, 2 luxory apts, and a house on the beach, a few years later, in a society where most people tell you "you can't do that, or "that won't work". Some of us think out of the box, and no kid who finished college with a degree is capable of understanding real life changing events. i don't care how much they read.
This crap is for very average people who lead very average lives. I know 2 Psyciatrists who re the 2 biggest low lifes I ever met. One sat in her house after the last hurricane and bought a lexus with the insurance money, then allowed the house to go into forclosure after borrowing against it, also her son is in in jail, for robberys, and she lives with a felon who she met whlie rehabbing him.
If you want to take advice from a loser with a degree, go right ahead.
These people never finish with their analysis, they go every week until their insurance runs out or can no longer pay, You don't know who the person is who is giving you advise. They may be a total mess, or just telling you what they read that has nothing to do with your life.
To me it's a license to steal, unless someone is really mentally insufficient, there is no good that comes from the misconception that you can be helped in 1 hour a week, for 30 years.While som eguy is looking at his watch.
Most times if they wait long enough the problem goes away on it's own, "unless it's manic depression or a legitamate illness". This is another product of our great country where people wo eat too much, have a disease, or bolemic people exhist, in other places these things don't exhist, they are too busy trying to make money to feed their family. Most of these made up diseases ar a product of a wealty lazy bunch of people who need to blame something or someone for their bad behavior.
The "old timers" used to laugh at this voodo, I tend to agree.

Sniper66
February 2, 2013, 11:21 AM
I just retired from nearly 40 years of work as a psychologist. I also shoot a lot and will hunt and shoot as long as I am able. Psychologists, for the most part, can be enormously helpful to the mentally ill and to the average person seeking guidance about life issues. But, I understand the legitimate concern that many of you have about the confidentiality of records. That is why we must be part of the dialogue about gun legislation and "mental illness". The difficulty in defining who meets the criteria of "mentally ill" is enormous and complex. That is why most politicians seek to simply ban guns. It is intellectually lazy and fails to even mention the real problems in our society. Sadly, I have seen the field of psychology deteriorate due to the influence of PC thinking. Such intellectual laziness is dangerous and gives way to gun-ban nonsense. The practice of psychotherapy is as much art as it is science and can be contaminated and irreversibly damaged by hysterical power-hungry politicians.

valnar
February 2, 2013, 11:24 AM
The practice of psychotherapy is as much art as it is science and can be contaminated and irreversibly damaged by hysterical power-hungry politicians.

This is the problem though. Even though a MHP may classify a particular problem as minor, it is not up to him/her to decide the fate of somebody's gun rights. And since you are required to report and document findings, it's a catch-22. The politicians should not have the right to say yay or nay on anything.

Robert
February 2, 2013, 11:28 AM
This was not really on topic to begin with.

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