How big of Faux Pas is taping down the grip safety on a 1911?


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CmdrSlander
February 1, 2013, 05:59 PM
EDIT: 2/3/13, 10:03 PM: I did some work on my grips to slim them down to get the same effect as taping down the grip safety, and proceeded to untape it.

I tried it because I had some spare electrical tape and it actually felt really nice, the pistol just fits my hand better. I'm not concerned about safety (unless it is going to break the gun or make it explode) because the pistol in question exclusively a range gun, so, from a standpoint of "firearms etiquette" and accepted norms how bad is taping down the grip safety on an M1911?

It may seem silly but I do laugh (on the inside) at people with badly sporterized guns or tapco-screwed chicoms and I don't want to be guilt of the handgunner's equivalent of a such a sin against a classic firearm, but it feels really nice.

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Unistat
February 1, 2013, 06:24 PM
If it feels good, do it who cares what other people think. The grip safety was an Army request/requirement anyway, not part of Browning's original design.

Now that you've joined the dark side, maybe you won't be so quick to laugh at people who enjoy their guns the way they like. ;)

ATLDave
February 1, 2013, 06:27 PM
It's my understanding that one of the reasons 1911's need grip safeties is that the weight of their metal triggers (particularly in un-skeletonized and long versions) combined with the non-pivoting trigger design makes a discharge from a butt-down/barrel up drop fairly likely if there's no grip safety. IOW, if dropped butt-first, the inertial of the trigger may be enough for it to pull itself.

At least that is what I've been told. Maybe you're not worried about that, but a muzzle-up drop discharge, even on a range gun, sounds really bad to me. Consider whether your trigger is of the kind that could bring in that risk.

rcmodel
February 1, 2013, 06:28 PM
Why would it feel any different then how it feels when you have a normal firing grip and it is depressed normally by your hand???

Personally, myself & I would not do it, because:
1. It simply makes no difference in how it feels if you are gripping the gun properly in the first place.

2. Should you have a range safety officer who sees it?
You will probably be ask to leave.

3. If you have an ND with a deactivated safety device and injure someone, there will be all kinds of hell to pay too.

rc

CmdrSlander
February 1, 2013, 06:30 PM
If it feels good, do it who cares what other people think. The grip safety was an Army request/requirement anyway, not part of Browning's original design.

Now that you've joined the dark side, maybe you won't be so quick to laugh at people who enjoy their guns the way they like. ;)
I just don't like to see nice guns butchered, especially if they can't be replaced, but I suppose this really isn't a permanent modification (it is TAPE after all).

Also, I think you have that backwards, the M1910 had a grip safety and NO manual safety , JMB believed that was sufficient (similar to what Glock would contend 80 years later when he created the safe action trigger), but the army demanded a manual safety. The military just wasn't ready.

Here is a picture of the prototype, called the "M1910" by some, not the lack of a manual safety:
http://www.sightm1911.com/1911pix/historic/Colt_M1910_Pistol_IMAGE_FILE.gif

CmdrSlander
February 1, 2013, 06:33 PM
Why would it feel any different then how it feels when you have a normal firing grip and it is depressed normally by your hand???

Personally, myself & I would not do it, because:
1. It simply makes no difference in how it feels if you are gripping the gun properly in the first place.

2. Should you have a range safety officer who sees it?
You will probably be ask to leave.

3. If you have an ND with a deactivated safety device and injure someone, there will be all kinds of hell to pay too.

rc
RE: Issue No. 1
It does if you have smaller hands, it allows me to get a better grip because it effectively narrows the circumference of the grip. Also my dad, who is and older gentleman, has trouble fully depressing the grip safety and he shoots this pistol (it is my 9mm M1911, it has less recoil which is good for him) a lot.

The others are totally valid. Except perhaps the range officer one... I've seen pictures and heard of IPSC shooters who swear by either mechanically deactivating or taping up their grip safeties, and when Delta still carried M1911s they often taped down the grip safeties, though that was because sand and grit could get in their fairly loose (they were 1940s vintage pistols) backstraps/mainsprings and cause the safety to fail to fully disengage when they needed to fire the pistol. I'm just saying I'm not the first and it isn't crazy...

jeepnik
February 1, 2013, 06:37 PM
There was a time when pinning the grip safety was a somewhat common modification. When folks first started with all the high grips stuff, they found that they sometimes had problems properly depressing the grip safety. The newer safeties with the "bump" came about as a solution to the problem.

Defeating any safety on a handgun that may be used in self defense is a poor decision. There's no need to give opposing lawyers anymore ammunition than they already have.

From a safety aspect, I suppose one could get a 1911 with a pinned/taped grip safety to fire if it were one without the firing pin block of the Series 80 design. But, I'm sure someone could figure out how to drop/kick/hammer almost any handgun with it's passive and or active safeties engaged and get it to fire.

CmdrSlander
February 1, 2013, 06:38 PM
There was a time when pinning the grip safety was a somewhat common modification. When folks first started with all the high grips stuff, they found that they sometimes had problems properly depressing the grip safety. The newer safeties with the "bump" came about as a solution to the problem.

Defeating any safety on a handgun that may be used in self defense is a poor decision. There's no need to give opposing lawyers anymore ammunition than they already have.

From a safety aspect, I suppose one could get a 1911 with a pinned/taped grip safety to fire if it were one without the firing pin block of the Series 80 design. But, I'm sure someone could figure out how to drop/kick/hammer almost any handgun with it's passive and or active safeties engaged and get it to fire.
I would never, ever do this to and HD/SD gun, this 1911 is specifically a range toy and sits in my safe unloaded, so I would never in any foreseeable circumstance grab it for defense.

Alizard
February 1, 2013, 06:52 PM
How big of Faux Pas is taping down the grip safety on a 1911?

Not much. IMHO, it's a stupid "safety" since it only works as long as nobody touches the gun. Like a warranty on tires that's only valid as long as you don't drive the car.

Taping it down might set off a deluge of insane responses, so the easy way is just to adjust (BEND) the leaf of the sear spring that holds the grip safety up so the weight is not noticable anymore. Basically the same s taping it down but no external visible evidence. That's what I do on mine. The safety is still operational, just not annoying.

As stated above: never modify anything on a carry/defense weapon or some lawyer will be screaming "HAIR TRIGGER" and a jury full of morons will be nodding their heads....

ku4hx
February 1, 2013, 06:52 PM
I can't imagine it being any more of a Faux Pas than this.

Coop45
February 1, 2013, 06:56 PM
Get slim grips

CmdrSlander
February 1, 2013, 07:03 PM
Get slim grips
I will one day... just not a priority, especially no on this gun.

Skribs
February 1, 2013, 07:10 PM
I've never seen that idea before...holster a pistol onto the butt of the rifle. Not sure if that's a good idea or not...

MRH
February 1, 2013, 07:38 PM
Probably fodder for a hungry lawyer if you shoot someone with it.

Walkalong
February 1, 2013, 07:41 PM
Google Novak "ANSWERģ" One Piece Back Strap

http://www.novaksights.com/customguns/1911/modifications.html

The one piece back strap.

breakingcontact
February 1, 2013, 07:41 PM
I don't mess with safety devices on firearms.

I like the Ruger SR pistols but not mag disconnects, but I'm not removing the mag disconnect so I'm not buying a Ruger SR.

If you don't like the thumb safety maybe try a different design? Grips (as suggested). Or a different big metal 45 design.

CmdrSlander
February 1, 2013, 07:46 PM
I don't mess with safety devices on firearms.

I like the Ruger SR pistols but not mag disconnects, but I'm not removing the mag disconnect so I'm not buying a Ruger SR.

If you don't like the thumb safety maybe try a different design? Grips (as suggested). Or a different big metal 45 design.
I love the thumb safety, my problem is with the GRIP safety on this particular gun which is GI style. A modernized M1911 with a high ride beavertail fits me fine but I don't want to invest that much (cost of safety plus fitting) into a fairly cheap M1911 clone from the far east.

tuj
February 1, 2013, 08:07 PM
If it's a range only gun, I see no problem with it. I have deactivated the grip safety on my IZH-35M and it has a lighter trigger than a 1911. It also has a manual safety which I've never engaged. I've never had a ND. I don't believe grip safeties make that much difference in terms of preventing ND's anyway.

If you're comfortable with Glock, why wouldn't you be comfortable with a Series 70 *range-only* gun with no safeties?

Totally agree about self-defense aspects; that's a no-no to defeat any safety features. Same thing applies to competition; a lot of them don't allow you to defeat safety devices.

breakingcontact
February 1, 2013, 08:10 PM
Ah! My fault. Comment still stands. Like the design or get a different design.

1911Tuner
February 1, 2013, 08:23 PM
Not much. IMHO, it's a stupid "safety" since it only works as long as nobody touches the gun.

Unless it's taped or pinned down and you drop it and it lands muzzle up...which it's more likely to do than landing muzzle down. Then it could become a pretty serious matter.

ATLDave nailed it.

To wit:

It's my understanding that one of the reasons 1911's need grip safeties is that the weight of their metal triggers (particularly in un-skeletonized and long versions) combined with the non-pivoting trigger design makes a discharge from a butt-down/barrel up drop fairly likely if there's no grip safety. IOW, if dropped butt-first, the inertial of the trigger may be enough for it to pull itself.

Personally, I don't get rattled if a manual safety inadvertently gets wiped off in the holster during the course of the day. However, I'm a stickler about that grip safety, gravity being always present and unrelenting.

Of course, each may roll the dice as each sees fit.

rcmodel
February 1, 2013, 08:54 PM
Not much. IMHO, it's a stupid "safety" since it only works as long as nobody touches the gun.Obviously you are one of the non-believers who either doesn't understand the 1911 design.
Or who has never fumbled a fast draw with a 1911 just as you swiped the thumb safety off and threw it 10-15 feet down range tumbling end over end.

As it flies down range in slow motion, tumbling end over end?
You will be praying the grip safety works as God, John Browning, and the war department intended!

Been there, done that, and got the special event T-Shirt.

BTW: It did work as intended.

rc

meanmrmustard
February 1, 2013, 10:02 PM
Obviously you are one of the non-believers who either doesn't understand the 1911 design.
Or who has never fumbled a fast draw with a 1911 just as you swiped the thumb safety off and threw it 10-15 feet down range tumbling end over end.

As it flies down range in slow motion, tumbling end over end?
You will be praying the grip safety works as God, John Browning, and the war department intended!

Been there, done that, and got the special event T-Shirt.

BTW: It did work as intended.

rc
I don't think JMB intended it to have a grip safety.

rcmodel
February 1, 2013, 10:05 PM
Lets not start that argument again, please.

There are 23, 30 page threads about it already.

rc

breakingcontact
February 1, 2013, 10:25 PM
I dont understand the intricacies of gun design like some of you all. So an M&P or glock is drop safe due to internal safeties whereas its the backstrap safety on a 1911 that makes it "drop safe"? How about on XD pistols?

Ramone
February 1, 2013, 10:53 PM
in the '70s-'80s pinning the grip safety was the hot setup for the 1911- my dad has carried his with a pinned safety for about 30 years now.

*I* don't like it, but it doesn't bother him a bit.

12gaugeTim
February 1, 2013, 11:45 PM
Are the people in this thread who frown on disabling the grip safety also scared of handguns with just a single, manual safety? Disabling the grip safety just makes the 1911 like a host of other handguns.

tipoc
February 2, 2013, 12:07 AM
Pinning the grip safety-there are several ways to do it-was not uncommon over the decades of the guns life. Some fellas who carried the gun in harms way had a hard time consistently gripping the gun at speed in such a way that they reliably depressed the grip safety. So some rendered it inoperable. It's been done and is up to the shooter.

About 15 years ago flat mainspring housings became the rage and swarms of shooters began to have problems properly depressing the grip safety. Not long after Kimber re-introduced the Schwartz safety on their 1911s, which is activated off the grip safety, and a swarm more developed troubles.

About the same time, by happenstance, a gun writing cop began scaring folks about altering any safety devices on their guns. This because the well known overzealous cop in a suit da might say at trial..."Yes Mr. Bumpkiss your ex wife's current brother in law did shoot through your back door with a 12 gauge and try to kill you and you did defend yourself returning fire, but didn't you remove the mag safety on your Hi-Power? Your Going To Jail Now!"

So the safety with a "memory" bump was developed by Ed Brown, I think it was. This may work for you. So might a rubber band, or a piece of leather, or a properly trimmed plastic shok buff in the right spot.

tipoc

wally
February 2, 2013, 12:13 AM
Its pretty important you tape it down before you remove the mainspring housing -- makes re-assembly a whole lot easier. But otherwise I think it a bad idea.

Gripping your pistol properly should be a non-issue with any decent training and practice. If a flat mainspring housing causes problems with your grip, get an arched one! or vice-versa.

tuj
February 2, 2013, 12:13 AM
I think some of you over-estimate the chances of a 1911 landing exactly in such a way as to trigger the firing pin to make sufficient contact with the primer as to cause ignition. I read in a 1911 book that a guy made up a drop rig along with some loads with no powder, just a primer, and dropped the gun straight down and it took something like 22' for it to ignite the primer.

Master Blaster
February 2, 2013, 12:23 AM
Your gun your choice. Love all the huffy busy body responses.

tipoc
February 2, 2013, 12:27 AM
By the way JMB and Colt engineers would have put any safety on the 1911 that the military wanted. It was their contract. Remember it beat out a number of guns in the competition. It's safety and reliability was a factor in that. The military felt that the revisions they made to the gun in 1926 enhanced it's safety and reliability and shootability.

He did put a grip safety on the M1903 in .32 acp and an external thumb safety on it as well. Colt kept it in the M1908 in .380.

He did not have either a grip safety or thumb safety on the Military and commercial Models or the M1903 Pocket Hammer in 38 acp. That may of had something to do with their not selling so well.

tipoc

StrawHat
February 2, 2013, 12:47 AM
Try gluing a piece of leather to the grip safety. It will cause you hand to depress the safety as you grab the pistol. This was done long before the metal bump was left on the safeties and is easier to remove.

tarosean
February 2, 2013, 01:11 AM
A Fox Passed???? Where I will get it!

http://i1265.photobucket.com/albums/jj507/tarosean/f4bc106c-fb3f-4fb1-9cb2-df0993d18d73_zps75ce900e.jpg


On a serious note.. There are a ton of grip safety versions out there and they are not very difficult to change.. Perhaps changing to something with a different design might help? I would also advise not disabling it with tape.

9mmepiphany
February 2, 2013, 01:38 AM
RE: Issue No. 1
It does if you have smaller hands, it allows me to get a better grip because it effectively narrows the circumference of the grip.
Could you expand on this?

How could there be a difference in circumference dependent on whether the grip safety is being depressed by your hand or tape?

It isn't like a working grip safety stands prouder when it depressed than when it is taped down...it can only be depressed so far into the backstrap

I've seen pictures and heard of IPSC shooters who swear by either mechanically deactivating or taping up their grip safeties.

I'm just saying I'm not the first and it isn't crazy...
Yes, IPSC shooters used to do a lot of things they don't do anymore...like press checking their 1911s by placing their index finger on the recoil spring plug while placing their thumb inside the trigger guard and squeezing their fingers together or placing their support hand index finger on the front of the trigger guard

I don't think anyone is saying that you are crazy, but that wasn't the question. The question was if it was a faux pas and you compared it to badly sporterized rifles.

To that question the answer is pretty much yes, because someone seeing it isn't going to think you are replicating a retro IPSC look as much as they are going to see someone who is disabling a safety device on a pistol

9mmepiphany
February 2, 2013, 01:47 AM
I don't think JMB intended it to have a grip safety.
Can we please put this to rest?

JMB's first submission to the Army board was only equipped with a grip safety...see post #5 about...as he did not see the need for a thumb safety. They rejected this model and had him add the thumb safety...to prevent officers from shooting their horses when re-holstering during a battle

JERRY
February 2, 2013, 01:55 AM
it will then work like a browning Hi-Power.

prosecutor: gasp "did you tape down the grip safety"!?

defendent: "yes, yesy i did".

defense attorney: "did you intend to shoot the gun at your attacker?"

defendent: "yes, yes i did"?

defense attorney: so the grip safety didnt matter did it"?

defendent: no, no it didnt".

defense attorney: "so you pulled the trigger and meant to shoot your attacker"?

defendent: "yes, yes i did".

GLOOB
February 2, 2013, 05:17 AM
it will then work like a browning Hi-Power.
The trigger on a Hi Power is hinged. The trigger bar goes forward. 1911 trigger parts all move rearward (much like all the striker-fired guns, and hence why they all have trigger safeties). Drop safety is the key difference.
I think some of you over-estimate the chances of a 1911 landing exactly in such a way as to trigger the firing pin to make sufficient contact with the primer as to cause ignition. I read in a 1911 book that a guy made up a drop rig along with some loads with no powder, just a primer, and dropped the gun straight down and it took something like 22' for it to ignite the primer.
I'm not omniscient, but I'm pretty sure you're referencing a test of firing pin inertia. When the gun is dropped on the muzzle. We're talking about the grip safety preventing trigger inertia. This happens when the gun lands muzzle up, which is much, much more dangrous. There's no single safe height from which to drop a grip-safetyless 1911. It all depends on the trigger pull and mass of the trigger+associated parts. There are all kinds out there, from 1 lb pulls all the way to 8.

Solo
February 2, 2013, 06:06 AM
Defeating any safety on a handgun that may be used in self defense is a poor decision. There's no need to give opposing lawyers anymore ammunition than they already have.
So take the tape off while the cops arrive :evil:

1911Tuner
February 2, 2013, 06:28 AM
Disabling the grip safety just makes the 1911 like a host of other handguns.

A "host" of other handguns have low-mass pivoting triggers. The 1911's trigger travels in a straight line. Even if it's made of a lightweight aluminum alloy...it still travels in a straight line...and the only thing standing between the trigger and the disconnect is about a 16th inch of pretravel and a single thin leaf spring.

A grip safety can be adjusted to release earlier if need be. I do it all the time for those few people who have problems getting them to disengage.

And let's not fall into the trap of what JMB intended. He didn't have a free hand in it. The US Army asked for a grip safety and he gave'em one. Later on, the US Cavalry asked for a manual slide-locking safety...and he gave'em one.

BSA1
February 2, 2013, 11:17 AM
I am curious why someone believes it is ok for a "range gun" to have less safety features than one is used for self and home defense?

After all n.d.'s never have occurred on the range have they?

bigfatdave
February 2, 2013, 11:39 AM
I think this "problem" can be solved with spring adjustment at minimum, or some simple grip/GS swaps at worst.

As someone who does remove mag disconnects and other undesired safety features from guns, I wouldn't disable a passive safety device like a GS.

Old Fuff
February 2, 2013, 12:08 PM
I had a problem in that if I put the tip of my thumb on the top of the manual safety thumb piece (paddle) the grip safety wouldn't be fully depressed. Given that the later Browning P-35 lacks this feature with no serious issues, I used a small screw to block it in the full-forward position and never looked back. If I should need it I can easily return it to full function.

On other occasions I have "adjusted" the safety so the trigger will be free to move when it is so much as slightly depressed.

In my view the right solution is what each individual user decides too do.

For the record, John Browning didnít want it, but the Army insisted.

tipoc
February 2, 2013, 02:37 PM
The problem has been described:

Some shooters have problems reliably depressing the grip safety on their guns. Why varies with the individual guns and the individual hands and the users techniques.

The reason the grip safety is there has been well explained. How it works has also been well explained.

Pinning the drip safety is old practice begun by GIs and well used by lawmen and gunnies for many years when needed. They weighed their options and they chose.

This practice was used long before the glut of affordable aftermarket parts on the internet and through gunsmiths were available.

It's a personal choice. If you want to over ride a useful safety device do so knowingly and know the choices.

A faux pas, by the way, is when you slip up in your manners or style, like wearing a pirate costume to work or discussing your domestic problems with strangers or passing gas when you meet the Governor, etc.

Deactivating the grip safety isn't a matter of style or etiquette as I see it. If it was chiefly that than I think it odd that a person would be concerned with that. "Is it in bad taste that I deactivate my grip safety?" seems off base in a way.

It's a safety concern. Know the risks and options.

tipoc

OilyPablo
February 2, 2013, 02:44 PM
Maybe I'm dense but I'm not 100% sure what this does. Taping it down doesn't make the grip safety any smaller(?)

Shadowdancer
February 2, 2013, 03:08 PM
Disabling safety features on any product looks very bad in a court of law. Considering the liability you would face, to quote Clint Eastwood: Do you feel lucky?

tipoc
February 2, 2013, 03:35 PM
Disabling safety features on any product looks very bad in a court of law.

Considering that over 90% of the folks in prison never had a court trial before a judge or jury and it's much likelier you'd be forced to take a plea, this point seems weaker than ever. On the other hand, as they love to add on charges on top of charges and sundry things to the heap, it could be one more ounce to a 50 pound pile.

The point against pinning the safety, to repeat, is that, if the safety is pinned, and the gun is dropped muzzle up, the weight of the trigger could cause the trigger to fully depress and the gun shoot. It's a safety matter.

tipoc

Evil One
February 2, 2013, 05:24 PM
I carry dual Combat Masters... they have no grip safety.
I am fine with it.


Jim

9mmepiphany
February 2, 2013, 05:52 PM
A faux pas, by the way, is when you slip up in your manners or style, like wearing a pirate costume to work or discussing your domestic problems with strangers or passing gas when you meet the Governor, etc.

Deactivating the grip safety isn't a matter of style or etiquette as I see it.
In the OP, he is speaking of taping down the grip safety.

The image that raises in my mind is duct tape around the back of the frame...that sounds like a style statement to me

9mmepiphany
February 2, 2013, 05:55 PM
I carry dual Combat Masters... they have no grip safety.
They were also designed to be carried with the hammer down and thumb cocked on the draw...that is why the rear sight was pushed forward and the top of the slide was machined away behind it :evil:

JTQ
February 2, 2013, 06:03 PM
deleted

tipoc
February 2, 2013, 06:08 PM
I suppose he could use one of those little open end condom/inner-tube like things some fellas put on their Glock grips to make them less slippery and even thicker. That might be more discreet and less of a faux-pas.

A strip of rawhide tie looks old school and is socially acceptable.

tipoc

P.S.

As I recall the Detonics Combat Master weighs less than the GM. The light alloy trigger of the CM and lighter weight of the piece overall makes the type of ud being discussed a non issue. The Detonics were tested for such accidents a good number of times as I remember. Deeton and others over to the Detonics forum will know.

1911Tuner
February 2, 2013, 11:00 PM
The point against pinning the safety, to repeat, is that, if the safety is pinned, and the gun is dropped muzzle up, the weight of the trigger could cause the trigger to fully depress and the gun shoot. It's a safety matter.

This and nothing more. A matter of choice. If you can be 100% confident that you'll never drop the pistol, then disable it. I hope that you don't discover that it was the wrong choice.

I think this "problem" can be solved with spring adjustment at minimum, or some simple grip/GS swaps at worst.

I timed one to release earlier for a fella just the other day. Took all of 5 minutes with a smooth mill file...including taking the gun apart and putting it back together.

Finally...while it may or may not be a factor in a lawful shooting, an accidental shooting because it was dropped...after deliberately disabling the very thing that would have prevented it...may prove to be a very expensive lesson in the way a civil litigation rolls.

The Lone Haranguer
February 3, 2013, 11:45 AM
If it keeps the gun from firing if dropped - and landing butt-down/muzzle up is a lot more likely than the reverse - that's good enough for me. :)

I don't have large hands, but I've never failed to depress a 1911 grip safety no matter how I held the gun in any kind of normal shooting grip.

Pilot
February 3, 2013, 12:05 PM
I don't even notice the grip safeties on any of my 1911's. I don't understand why anyone would need to disable it. :confused:

OilyPablo
February 3, 2013, 12:44 PM
don't even notice the grip safeties on any of my 1911's. I don't understand why anyone would need to disable it

Don't bother. Same here. I asked the question what the gain is and no one answered. :banghead:

Old Fuff
February 3, 2013, 04:50 PM
Don't bother. Same here. I asked the question what the gain is and no one answered.

I'll try:

It depends on your hand, and how you grip the pistol.

Some prefer resting the tip of the thumb on the paddle (thumb piece) of the manual safety so that it cannot be flipped up while shooting. This would seem like a good idea, and for many if not most it is.

However for some with smaller hands, lifting the thumb to the higher position prevents the grip safety from being fully depressed, and in this instance the piece won't fire.

There are a number of solutions, most of which have been discussed in this thread on previous posts. If one has a problem, how they address it it their business; but some answer is better then not having the pistol go BANG! when it's something that's absolutely necessary. :banghead:

OilyPablo
February 3, 2013, 05:46 PM
However for some with smaller hands, lifting the thumb to the higher position prevents the grip safety from being fully depressed, and in this instance the piece won't fire.

Thanks for taking the time to explain. I can see that now. I have medium small, but beefy hands (usually wear small gloves), but can't force my hand high enough for this to occur - so those folks must have really small, slender hands.

The Wiry Irishman
February 3, 2013, 08:06 PM
My carry gun and my bedside pistol both have grip safeties pinned from the factory. I like it because with a pinned safety, you can get a much smoother fit between the safety, frame, and mainspring housing that feels much better in my hand. I've found that unpinned, this shape is a bit difficult to depress reliably relative to a traditional unpinned design, especially the ones with the hump at the bottom. The grip I can achieve with the pinned safety seems to lend itself better to the gun returning to original point of aim on its own that my grip with an unpinned safety.

EDIT: Also, I sometimes have had trouble keeping the grip safety depressed when shooting with one hand. I have long but slender hands.

All the grip safety does is block the trigger bar, a function more or less duplicated by having the trigger bar covered by a good holster. If the gun is in your hand, it's going to be off by default. Drop safety is the primary concern. Both these guns have massively skeletonized triggers and titanium trigger bars. When I got the first one, I played around with it for a while, dropping it on my floor (thin, hard carpet over concrete slab) from as high as I could reach. I even tried it standing on my couch. I couldn't get the hammer to drop after trying this for about a hour.

Many people in this thread have brought up very valid safety concerns with pinning the grip safety. If you decide you prefer it pinned as I do, I would highly recommend using it for range/competition only or installing lightweight trigger components and testing it thoroughly to assure yourself of the gun's safety.

The Wiry Irishman
February 3, 2013, 08:12 PM
For reference, the trigger bar/trigger that I have in all my 1911-style guns:

http://sviguns.com/1101.php?indx=5

The Wiry Irishman
February 3, 2013, 08:23 PM
Also, a few pics of the pinned safety on my carry gun:

http://www.dayattherange.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/13.jpg

http://www.dayattherange.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/3follow1.jpg

The Lone Haranguer
February 3, 2013, 08:42 PM
Would the Series 80-style firing pin block render the grip safety redundant?

The Wiry Irishman
February 3, 2013, 08:46 PM
I don't think so. I believe it's deactivated via pulling of the trigger, so if the gun is dropped hard enough and at the right angle for the weight of the trigger system to trip the sear, it would trip the firing pin block as well.

marine 97-03
February 5, 2013, 04:12 AM
Like some on here have said tampering with a safety is not a wise thing to do......period .

LeonCarr
February 5, 2013, 10:30 AM
If you wanna carry a 1911 style gun with no grip safety, google Ballester-Molina.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

tipoc
February 5, 2013, 01:55 PM
One last point, from me anyway, the gun can fire if the grip safety is disabled provided that there is a round in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, the thumb safety is not on and the gun is dropped and hits at just the right angle. It is not a common occurrence.

Weigh your options.

tipoc

GLOOB
February 5, 2013, 03:36 PM
Common? No. I have dropped a pistol before, unintentionally, only once. It was a Sigma, and it was unloaded.

The scary thing about a muzzle up AD is that the gun is usually going to hit the ground near your feet. That will send the bullet in the vicinity of your head, as you turn your head to look or even reach down to try to catch it.

I have read of 2 such ND's with a Polish P64. The first guy dropped the gun while putting it back in his safe, and he took a bullet in his arm. The other guy was luckier. He only put a bullet through his ceiling.

To me, this might be ok for an SD gun. Heck, if an ND happens, maybe the other guy will get hit. :) I wouldn't want a range gun to have this kind of potential. Getting accidentally shot for no reason would be a really bad day. Accidentally shooting the guy in the next lane could be even worse.

HKGuns
February 5, 2013, 06:43 PM
I would listen to Tuner and RC were I in your shoes and that is all I have to say on that matter.

Don357
February 5, 2013, 08:25 PM
I personally think that JMB purposely left the grip safety off of the original 1911 military design to reduce moving parts and therefore reducing the chance of a failure and also reducing manufacturing costs. However, the military was thinking of safety concerning the number of draftees and recruits that had never handled a rifle or handgun until their "familiarization" in basic training, which in WW1 and WW2 was shortened so as to put troops in action.

As for taping the grip safety, as many have said, it makes the 1911 just like many of the other handguns on the market, and I would seriously think about "cocked and locked" carry with the safety taped. Also, remember that any modification to any firearm's safety system, opens a miriad of issues for the 'anti-gun' crowd to use against firearm owners.

bigfatdave
February 5, 2013, 08:40 PM
I personally think that JMB purposely left the grip safety off of the original 1911 military design to reduce moving parts and therefore reducing the chance of a failure and also reducing manufacturing costs. well, that's an interesting opinion, marred by the lack of a THUMB SAFETY on the original design, and an obvious grip safety.
But otherwise, very interesting.

These concepts were discussed upthread already, and in endless previous threads.
Seriously, there's a picture in post#3

wow6599
February 5, 2013, 08:59 PM
Just change the set-up.
I have owned or shot many, many 1911's.

My last one, a Colt Custom shop build with a S&A grip safety, Novak ambi thumb safety and VZ G10 grips doesn't work - for me - worth a darn.

Only 1911 I can't use a high, thumbs forward grip with...... at least not reliably enough for my likes. about 15% of the time, I don't get positive engagement (dis-engagement) of the grip safety.

Maybe I will tweak the leaf spring.....maybe I will change to a low-ride thumb safety.

I won't use tape..........

TheGloriousTachikoma
February 5, 2013, 09:01 PM
@ CmdrSlander (post #5)

Now I *really* want to finish a Rudius 80% frame, if for little other reason than to build a 1911 with no manual safety. I already have one money pit of a project (my RX-7), now I want another money pit. <_<

Seriously though, that is all kinds of esoteric cool. B)

9mmepiphany
February 5, 2013, 09:51 PM
Now I *really* want to finish a Rudius 80% frame, if for little other reason than to build a 1911 with no manual safety.

Seriously though, that is all kinds of esoteric cool. B)
Just be aware that the original intent was that the 1911 be carried with the hammer down on an empty chamber. The training was to chamber a round immediately before engaging in combat by racking the slide

Don357
February 5, 2013, 10:24 PM
OK, I'm tired, several hundred miles away from home, and heading farther away as soon as day breaks. (I drive a truck, and am a "heavy hauler".) I'm not thinking straight. Still, I think you understood what I was getting at.EXCUUUUUSSSE ME!:banghead:

RainDodger
February 6, 2013, 12:44 AM
The grip safety is there for a reason. Get used to it!

EBK
February 6, 2013, 08:40 PM
I don't think JMB intended it to have a grip safety.


Ding Ding Ding

We have a winner!

TMann
February 6, 2013, 08:42 PM
Isn't there a big name 1911 maker that sells a model without a grip safety?

EBK
February 6, 2013, 08:48 PM
Gripping your pistol properly should be a non-issue with any decent training and practice. .

Thats all well and good on the range however it goes TU when you get shot in the hand.

I have seen a post on AR15.com from a guy who was robbed and shot the robber with his 1911. The victim got one round off before the robber shot him in the hand. It took some precious time but he was finaly able to grip the pistol enough to depress the grip safety to get off another shot or 2.

1911Tuner
February 7, 2013, 05:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by meanmrmustard View Post
I don't think JMB intended it to have a grip safety.

Ding Ding Ding

We have a winner!

Browning had no intent one way or another on the military contract pistols. He designed what he was asked for. The grip safety was in place as early as 1905 as an add-on, and incorporated into the 1907 design. It returned on the 1909, and again on the 1910...which, after the manual slide-locking safety...aka "Thumb" safety was added...became the Model of 1911 US Army.

The safeties were put there because they were requested by the people who hired him. No more and no less.

If Browning had any intent at all, it was to use the half-cock as a safety, since that's the way he designed all his other exposed hammer guns, which had no other mechanical safeties.

The grip safety was absent on the P35, largely because it wasn't necessary because of the lightweight, pivoting trigger...but mostly because the military entity that contracted for the gun didn't request one. If a grip safety had been specified, the High Power would be wearing one today.

Although many of Browning's ideas were incorporated into the High Power, he didn't have anything to do with the finished pistol. He died nearly 9 years before it made its debut. The honor for the final design goes to Dieudonne Saive.

The function and the reason for the grip safety has been clearly explained. Disable it at your own risk.

jr_roosa
February 7, 2013, 12:58 PM
I have seen a post on AR15.com from a guy who was robbed and shot the robber with his 1911. The victim got one round off before the robber shot him in the hand. It took some precious time but he was finaly able to grip the pistol enough to depress the grip safety to get off another shot or 2.

Too bad he didn't have another hand.

Oh. Wait.

-J.

EBK
February 7, 2013, 09:31 PM
Too bad he didn't have another hand.

Oh. Wait.

-J.
You will have to talk with him about that. If I can find the thread I will link it here. There were crime scene pics and pics of both the shooter and the perp in the hospital. it was a very detailed writeup.

He was hanging out with some lawer friends at their office.

All I know is he had issues returning fire because of the gripsafety. I believe this incident also conviced him not to carry any guns with a grip saftey in the future.

GLOOB
February 8, 2013, 03:44 AM
When I got the first one, I played around with it for a while, dropping it on my floor (thin, hard carpet over concrete slab) from as high as I could reach. I even tried it standing on my couch. I couldn't get the hammer to drop after trying this for about a hour.

I commend this effort. I have done the same with my 686-1. The SA trigger pull is less than 2 lbs, and it's freakishly short; there's no perceptible travel, at all. You put pressure on it, and it just goes off. Actually the trigger moves FORWARD when it breaks, and that's all you feel. It passed the test, but I still wouldn't want to drop it with the hammer cocked and a loaded round.

But that said, even a thin carpeting makes a big... really big difference. For example, I have read that the military started investigating the other drop ND problem, inertial firing pin discharges, because of incidents that happened on warships. The decks of which were solid steel, very heavy, and very hard. Maybe just the right springiness, too. They discovered the original 1911 design could ND when dropped from as little as 3 feet on such a surface, from what I have read. That would likely not happen on a carpeted floor, even at 3 times the height.

Every indoor gun range I have been to has a solid concrete floor. There are very few people on the planet that have drop tested their own personal 1911's on bare concrete. So if you dropped your gun at the range, the guy in the next lane would be your first test subject. Same goes for me and my 686. Just something to think about.

1911Tuner
February 8, 2013, 06:08 AM
Actually the trigger moves FORWARD when it breaks, and that's all you feel. It passed the test, but I still wouldn't want to drop it with the hammer cocked and a loaded round.

A test that you can perform with a cocked DA revolver may surprise you.

With an empty primed case under the hammer, use a screwdriver to bump the trigger until the hammer falls. The gun won't fire. Try it.

StrawHat
February 8, 2013, 10:58 AM
That is true for S&W revolvers made since the late 1940's. Not sure about other revolvers.

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