Winchester 9mm Black Talon


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bbooker
February 1, 2013, 06:24 PM
I ran across this box of unfired Winchester Black Talons in 9mm. I know they were outlawed or Winchester stopped manufacture of them a while back. Can someone fill me in on the story and also, are these just a good paperweight or should I hang on to them?? They are probably 15-20 years old. Thanks.

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g_one
February 1, 2013, 06:38 PM
It was discontinued largely due to the fact that when it expanded, the tips of the expansion petals were designed to be sharp tips rather than generic "flaps" like most JHP. They pulled it off the shelves and eventually stopped manufacturing it before anyone actually banned them or made them illegal, but Winchester's Ranger SXT line is almost identical in expansion/penetration/ballistics, without much of a change at all.

g_one
February 1, 2013, 06:40 PM
Here's a shot of the talon / XTP post-expansion:
http://www.patronensammler.de/images/schachtel_des_monats/schach3.45_Black_Talon.02.01.jpg

pat701
February 1, 2013, 07:23 PM
I got some also in a Sig P239, and Sig P226. No big deal:confused:

CWL
February 1, 2013, 07:33 PM
Black Talons were unique for their time in that their outer jacket was designed to help create a wound channel.

They were removed from civilian sales after a nutjob used them in his guns to shoot 15 people (9 died) in 1993, due to bad press and public hysteria that these bullets could rip people apart. Actual fact was that the medical examiner, Dr. Boyd Stevens, later testified that the wound channels caused by BT bullets were "unremarkable" and did not contribute to additional wounding or fatalities and that all fatalities were due to penetration of bullets into vital areas of victim's bodies.

Immediately after this shooting, Winchester removed the BT from civilian sales, but then issued their Ranger SXT line of bonded JHP bullets. These were commonly referred to as "Same eXact Thing" (just without the scary black coating).

Even thought BTs are no more remarkable than any other modern JHP bullet, there arose a myth that these bullets are "killer ammo" and they are still in demand from collectors and uninformed enthusiasts in search of a "Magic Bullet". I suggest that you trust more to your training than the automatic lethality of these bullets should you decide to use them in your SD/HD firearms.

Unless those bullets sat underwater for a lengthy time, they should still be functional.

scaatylobo
February 1, 2013, 07:41 PM
I was issued those in 9 MM and then in .40 S&W back when they were available.

The big deal was the name "black" and as we all saw it that was the primary reason for them to be renamed SXT's.

One of our officers used 3 black talons to stop a large perp that was mental and attacked that officer in front of the hospital that gave the mental case [ EDP ] the knife he used to 'cut his food'.

The surgeon was standing next to the officer and there was nothing he could do,the perp was DRT [ dead right there ].

Far as I am concerned that is why I still carry the issue ammo still [ its SXT's ] and I too have a few rounds of that old stuff,might be a bit collectable especially in the long run.

Downeast
February 1, 2013, 07:49 PM
My neighbor gave me 200 rounds of these for free recently :D

zhd
February 1, 2013, 09:18 PM
These are very collectible, I would love to add them to my collection because you cannot just go ind these anywhere. If you are willing to part with them please PM me, I'll pay top dollar.

bds
February 1, 2013, 10:04 PM
They are now Winchester Ranger "T-series", just without the black paint. ;)

Available from SGAmmo (40S&W currently out of stock):
380 Auto 95 gr HP - http://www.sgammo.com/product/winchester/500-rds-380-auto-acp-winchester-ranger-t-series-hollow-point-ra380t

40S&W 165 gr HP - http://www.sgammo.com/product/winchester/500-rd-case-winchester-ranger-40-cal-165-grain-t-series-ammo-ra40ta-limit-1-case

Here's 40S&W 165 gr HP
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=178885&stc=1&d=1359774281

Snowdog
February 2, 2013, 04:19 AM
Some jurisdictions outlawed Black Talons I believe, but there's no Federal law that restricts ownership. Winchester pulled them voluntarily, as others pointed out.

And yes, Ranger T-series (t for talon) is the same thing except they are now several generations evolved from the original and lack the unnecessary lubalox black coating.
In my ever so humble opinion, the modern RA9T and RA124TP are a more reliable product than the original Black Talon.

I informally tested some RA124TP a while back from my Bersa UC9 (3.5" barrel) and even after 2 and 4 layers of denim, expansion was perfect. I still carry this load in both my UC9 and Kahr K9.

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4133/5000683690_3c8f9dbd78_z.jpg

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4130/5000081567_57b8fc9a6e_z.jpg

zhd
February 2, 2013, 08:06 AM
Are these Ranger's hard to come by? Have not seen them anywhere here in GA. Would love to know where I can get some for 9mm in at least a 124gr, would love to have the 147gr if they make it.

AJChenMPH
February 2, 2013, 08:43 AM
Any difference between the SXTs (or Ranger Ts) and their PDX-1s?

Vonderek
February 2, 2013, 08:48 AM
I remember the media hysteria at the time that with the sharp petals they were designed to be "lethal buzzsaws spinning at 360,000 revolutions per minute chopping up a human body" (or somesuch...I am recalling the quote and RPM from distant memory.) The public was in awe and fear. Somebody pointed out that the RPM number if divided by the length of time the bullet spent traversing the human body meant that the bullet only made one revolution while transiting a body. Hardly a spinning buzzsaw.

It didn't matter, bad PR and media & political outrage caused Winchester to pull them from the shelves only to quietly re-emerge with no fanfare under a different name as previously stated in other posts.

They really were not more effective at the time than premium offerings from other manufacturers. It shows the power of the media when 20 years later people still regard them with legendary mystical properties.

TonyT
February 2, 2013, 12:14 PM
I also believe surgeons had an issue with the BT bullet since those pointed petals would cut through the surgical gloves.

tarosean
February 2, 2013, 02:06 PM
and the legacy, I mean fallacy, still grows after all these years...

kokapelli
February 2, 2013, 02:22 PM
Shortly after Winchester discontinued the Black Talon I found some Fiocchi 9mm with a similar nylon coated bullet that looks a lot like the Black Talon.

Not sure it's the same bullet Winchester used but looks a lot like the Black Talon and I still have some of it.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/6678373/Fiocchi.jpg

C0untZer0
February 2, 2013, 02:30 PM
Ranger T Series RA9T are hard to come by. I was looking all spring and early summer of 2012 before some became available.

I think they're the best 9mm SD ammo available - but that's just my opinion.

http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/flash-SWFs/law_bullit.swf


http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=172687&stc=1&d=1348960387

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=172686&stc=1&d=1348960128

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=172688&stc=1&d=1348960387


My only complaint is that it came from the factory with final cleaning/polishing medium on it (ground corn cob meal) I couldn't live with it so I cleaned them up.

Before on the left, after cleanup on the right.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=174079&stc=1&d=1351712546

SFCRandall
February 2, 2013, 02:50 PM
The same time Black Talons were on the market, Remington offered a similar self-defense load called Golden Sabre. I was amused how much a brand name affected the perception that one was menacing, sinister and inhumane while the other recieved no attention at all by the media.

I also recall watching E.R. or some other hospital drama where the surgeons were working on a gunshot victim when the female doctor cried out "Watch out! Its a Black Talon bullet, it has razor sharp edges."

unspellable
February 2, 2013, 03:23 PM
Everyone knows the Golden Saber was designed strictly for stopping charging marshmallows.

It amazes me that there can be such a hoo ra over something that's designed to stop an assailant becaquse it supposedly does a slightly better job of it.

JoePfeiffer
February 2, 2013, 04:11 PM
Also part of the hysteria at the time was the "armor piercing teflon coating" which wasn't armor-piercing and wasn't teflon.

Sent from my NookColor using Tapatalk 2

Kramer Krazy
February 2, 2013, 07:04 PM
I had bought some of the BT ammo when it first came out and never shot any. In 1995-96 I found a source and was buying and selling the stuff to all my friends (and even the UPS driver who delivered them to me). I still have a few boxes of them, but I have them only as a novelty/collectors item. It's the same with the Zombie Max ammo you can buy now. I bought some just to throw in the collection. I casually watch out for a box of Black Rhino ammo, but it seems to come up for sale on very rare occasions.

boricua9mm
February 2, 2013, 07:15 PM
Any difference between the SXTs (or Ranger Ts) and their PDX-1s?

From everything I've been told from folks working in the Federal sector as well as written articles and accompanying gel tests, the PDX-1 is the latest family member of Black Talon lineage. In my own personal (low end scientiffic testing), they offer minimal flash in low-light situations, have an easily recoverable recoil impulse and a velocity that is "as advertised."

After side-by-side comparisons, I stopped carrying Gold Dots and I roll with the PDX-1 when it comes to 9mm.

bbooker
February 2, 2013, 10:08 PM
Shortly after Winchester discontinued the Black Talon I found some Fiocchi 9mm with a similar nylon coated bullet that looks a lot like the Black Talon.

Not sure it's the same bullet Winchester used but looks a lot like the Black Talon and I still have some of it.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/6678373/Fiocchi.jpg
Look on the bright side...at least they are zero pollution. Just found that amusing.

Snowdog
February 4, 2013, 05:50 AM
Not sure it's the same bullet Winchester used but looks a lot like the Black Talon and I still have some of it.

I'm going to venture to say those JHPs are Lubalox coated non-talon SXT that appeared immediately after the Talons were voluntarily pulled, due to the apparent eight petal design (rather than the 6 used by all the talon series JHPs).

Essentially these with Lubalox coating and loaded by Fiocchi in non-nickel brass:
http://www.calzaretta.com/scans/sxt9.jpg

However, those "stopgap" SXTs were of 147gr, not 123gr. So, some mystery remains.

Odd Job
February 4, 2013, 06:53 AM
There is plenty better ammunition to be found today than the old Ranger SXT/Black Talon.
The OP should sell those rounds to a collector and get some modern JHPs with less chance for a core-jacket separation.

cougar1717
February 4, 2013, 02:05 PM
I was amused how much a brand name affected the perception that one was menacing, sinister and inhumane while the other recieved no attention at all by the media.


I agree, the name of a product means a lot, especially to people who don't know a lot about ammo. To everyday people (not THR'ers), XTP and SXT are just some innocuous letters, like on their Ford F-150 STX. Names like Gold Dot or Golden Saber might indicate that those are more valuable since "gold" is in the name or just indicate that the color is gold. Critical Duty, Critical Defense, TAP, etc. sound tactical and indicate that they must be for law enforcement. And since no one reads anymore, almost everyone is confused as to where the water is located in the Hydra-Shok ammo.

It is that vein of ignorance that cried out against the Black Talon. Many people saw "Black" as a sign of racism - at least it was billed that way in the news. Many saw the "talon" part as being about razor blade-like jacket petals. Perception is powerful and the lore continues to this day to the uninformed. We can all see that ammo manufacturers have changed their marketing to more neutral designations for their premier hollowpoint ammo that most people just think are innocuous.

Aceoky
February 4, 2013, 03:02 PM
I want dangerous deadly ammo for SD purposes :fire:

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