Fiber-Reinforced Stocks


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barnbwt
February 1, 2013, 11:35 PM
I've heard of precision rimfire rifles using fiberglass or other fiber-reinforced composite stocks; have these been used for shotguns as well? I'm working on a replacement stock as part of my Ithaca M37 to M90 Shotgun build. (Don't worry devotees, it is no collector item, and I'm gonna do a quality job on my mods)

My stock design has a pistol grip ahead of the butt, which will be very weakly attached if I carve the whole deal from a single block of timber, and will require reinforcement. If fiber layups or molds have been done successfully in a 12ga shotgun application, that would be perfect for my purposes (I'm aiming to emulate a synthetic stock, after all) since it could be built up to the strength I need in the "wrist" area.

For those interested:
http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p630/barnbwt/Concept.jpg
http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p630/barnbwt/Mockup2.jpg
The second photo is my "practice stock" made from this terrible "Whitewood" stuff I bought at Lowe's. It's basically basswood, so unless the fiber reinforcement is wholly capable of carrying the recoil load, I'll be carving another from something a bit tougher.

TCB

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jmr40
February 2, 2013, 11:01 AM
Sorry, but I cannot be of any help with your question, but is your stock on the receiver upside down, or am I looking at it wrong? Maybe I'm just misunderstanding something.

Fred Fuller
February 2, 2013, 11:44 AM
Let's see.

You're going to have the yawning maw of an Ithaca 37 ejection/loading port on the TOP of the shotgun?

With ejected hulls coming up in the shooter's LOS (line of sight)?

That will be ... interesting ... to put it mildly.

barnbwt
February 3, 2013, 10:58 AM
Clarification:

-The receiver is turned upside down, and the trigger relocated with an extension
-The ejection port will be up top (which is the point of this build)
-A sliding/tilting dust cover will be attached to help protect the action (if needed)
-A new foregrip will go over the barrel (and new action rail)
-Trigger/guard will be trimmed flush with receiver
-Mag tube will extend to 6-8 rounds
-New rail/sights will be soldered to the mag tube

I've never liked repeating shotguns because they load from the bottom (or side if you turn the gun) and I'm a hand/eye person who needs to see what I'm doing to perform it efficiently. I've always liked top-loading firearms, and was intrigued by the (fictional) depiction of a top-loading pump in Halo. As far as I can tell, no one has even tried this configuration before, and since I can see no reason why it can't work, I thought I'd try it out.

My particular Ithaca kicks the shells forward at about 45deg, so no hulls in the face. I'm a fan of the K31 and M95, which kick cases nearly straight up, and I've never found it bothered me. On a semi-auto, perhaps, but not on a manual action (for me). I'll probably stick with black/green hulled ammo, though, to minimize any potential distraction.

This is a project for fun. If I'm lucky, it will be a functional/capable firearm, but mostly I'm just having fun with a 150$ gun :rolleyes: . Hell, I'm half-tempted to leave the original trigger guard sticking up as a "sight base" or "carry handle" :D

I've worked out the other details needed to complete the modification (trigger group, soldering, action rail), the only thing eluding me is how to make a "standing pistol grip" stock that is strong enough to not crack at the wrist. Since I don't have injection-molding capabilities, I need to come up with something I can do in my garage.

TCB

Fred Fuller
February 3, 2013, 12:23 PM
If you had seen the amount of leaves/twigs/weed fluff/etc I've pulled out of 870 actions over the years, actions which have the ejection port blocked with the bolt and the loading port mostly covered by the lifter, you'd have a greater understanding of my reluctance to have a gravity-assisted crap trap built into a field shotgun...

barnbwt
February 3, 2013, 02:28 PM
I understand your concern, but does an 8-shot, 18 1/2" barreled "tacticool" shotgun really sound like a field gun? ;)

As a knod to keeping things clean, if nothing else, I'm may add a "drain hole" to the bottom (non-stressed area) of the locking recess. Still, regular orientation or no, this action is so difficult to dissassemble in the field, that massive debris-cloggage would be a show-stopper regardless.

Still haven't heard any advice on stock-building...

TCB

Smitty in CT
February 3, 2013, 09:55 PM
The recoil will be extremely harsh, on a typical shotgun stock the recoil is transferred in a downward dirrection.

In this configuration, ALL of the recoil is directed straight into your shoulder ...

OUCH!!

Fred Fuller
February 3, 2013, 10:56 PM
I understand your concern, but does an 8-shot, 18 1/2" barreled "tacticool" shotgun really sound like a field gun?

Even more so. As in doing the things one has to do to avoid incoming while actually using said shotgun. And I don't think a drain hole will really be enough to keep things clear, but I've never designed (or re-designed) a shotgun before. But consider other "tacticool" stuff out there. The M-16 has a dust cover over its ejection port. The M249 SAW has a dust cover over the magazine well when it is set up to be belt fed. And so on. Those are definitely field guns...

The idea of a mag tube above the barrel is interesting enough to have already been put in production at least three times (with twin mag tubes, not just one), and at least one of those designs has dust covers over the topside loading ports. Those are all bullpup designs though.

The stock design will work, as pictured. And it should help in controlling recoil as it delivers recoil straight back with less tendency to rotate the gun up around the point of contact with the shoulder, as conventional stocks do. It should be no problem to fabricate with current production methods, once design is finalized.

barnbwt
February 4, 2013, 12:30 AM
The M-16 has a dust cover over its ejection port. The M249 SAW has a dust cover over the magazine well when it is set up to be belt fed. And so on. Those are definitely field guns...


Which is precisely why I intend to have a sliding/tilting dust cover close the port when the gun's in battery :rolleyes:

If you are speaking of the Neostad/UTS-12 (very cool gun, BTW, got to handle one in the LGS recently :cool:), it's really a side-loading gun, since the little loading gates are on either side of the receiver. Being a righty, the left tube would be a cinch to load up, but loading the opposite tube would require unshouldering and tilting the gun; same issue as any other pump. The loading gates also have to be manually closed for the shells to drop into the action--not the most straight-forward manual of arms.

The stock design will work, as pictured
Not if I'm carving it ;). I've already lost one handgrip (granted, it's really crummy wood I'm using to test the shape/fit, but the issue is the same regardless of the material I choose), so I know I'll need some kind of reinforcement going forward. I've seen fiber-reinforced stocks done as two halves "clamshelled" together, but making them requires fabricating negative moulds, which sounds very difficult. I'm looking more and more into a "Bondo" based solution, at least for my first attempt at the stock. Not the lightest way to go, but that stuff is definitely strong, and cheap.

I'll be sure to use the large Limbsaver grind pad I have lying around; these Ithacas kick nastily even in factory configuration. I'm about half-way through modding the trigger-block to relocate the controls. Above the shooting thumb, there will be a lever safety that controls the trigger block, and the shell-interruptor; flip up for fire, push up farther (against a spring) to release the slide. Flip down for safe, push down farther (again, momentary switch) to release the slide while on safe. I've only got a Dremel (and steady hands) to do these mods, so they're taking longer than they should, but a properly outfitted hobbyist with the stocks and templates could do this conversion in a weekend, easy.

In this configuration, ALL of the recoil is directed straight into your shoulder ...
I suppose the recoil could be more "efficiently" delivered to the shoudler in this setup. But with a modern butt pad, I can't imagine it being any worse than the stock Ithaca, which is reputed to be among the hardest kicking of pump actions. As has been seen with the Chiappa Rhino, having the recoil straight back isn't necessarily a bad thing; resisting the pitch-up requires more muscle strength than simply enduring the thrust, so follow up shots are improved. The biggest drawback to this design is the mag-mounted sights which, in addition to possibly not rezeroing if the barrel is removed, have a much greater parallax than typical shotguns, so point shooting may be inhibited somewhat (especially with a shorter barrel).

TCB

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