Cold dead fingers, Really?


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Lex Luthier
February 2, 2013, 09:13 AM
I am sure many of us here are gobsmacked by our governments brash attempts to ignore the US Constitution. I am completely sure that we all value our security and our rights, and that we would never allow our families to be hurt, but it seems our potential reactions to the oncoming Gestapo may very well make that happen. The freedom to exercise out 2A rights is but one facet on this gem of life. Our intellectual and moral constitution are all we have to make us men, and we need to decide how we are going to react.

Some guys are very braggadocio about being the last man standing, and never ever giving in, but how motivated are we really? There are several bills being discussed here in MN next week that if passed would very seriously impact my rights and security. I would have to sell or make disappear almost every tool that has given me joy and satisfaction. I would have to allow the jackboots into my home to inspect the storage arrangements of my then legally registered items. While we have to maintain the necessary life stuff like good jobs, familiar group associations, and other mainstays that make our lives as we know it comfortable and satisfying, the prospect of living a value added life seems to be diminishing.

Would you be the guy surrounded and not ever giving up the fight? What would it take for you to give up your job, home, and everything else to make your point? How many of us are willing to be the poster boy?

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Sam1911
February 2, 2013, 09:21 AM
We get this question from time to time and it is pretty hard to take any answers seriously. Very few of us have ever faced a "submit or die" or "submit or go to jail" situation. It is mighty difficult to accept that a large number of folks -- even us die-hard gun nuts -- would really give up their families, jobs, homes, and life when presented with such a choice.

Even if we are willing to do the math and make the personal pledge that we will never submit -- there's simply no way to utterly commit to being carried out in a body bag, past your orphan kids ... who will then surrender your guns anyway.

The time to fight is NOW. Give up a day at work and go see your representatives. Write, call, fax, email constantly. Organize your friends, family, and neighbors. All that stuff is a pain, sure, but it is a whole lot less of a pain than fighting later...and it is much more likely that you WILL fight now than that you will "man up" when the blue helmets (or whoever) come.

huntsman
February 2, 2013, 09:29 AM
I don't believe your question can be answered honestly ahead of time, I don't let emotion rule my decisions but whether to give up or fight is one where emotion and situation are both fluid.

PRM
February 2, 2013, 09:33 AM
deleted

xXxplosive
February 2, 2013, 09:35 AM
The Dicision is an individual one........but, I just can't believe we've elected again the same people who have been fooling us all along....man are we stupid. And the constant reporting in the News everyday of any firearms related event is their attempt at changing in mass public opinion.
It may just come to..........Stand Your Ground......IMO.

fallout mike
February 2, 2013, 09:38 AM
Some people have come to terms with the reality that they will die in their front yards, gun in hand. I know such people.

J-Bar
February 2, 2013, 09:40 AM
An option to be considered is moving to a state that suits your personal philosophy.

Folks are leaving California and Illinois. Perhaps they will start leaving Minnesota, too.

I think I would pack up my guns and move to a friendlier climate rather than force a shoot-out on my front porch.

NeuseRvrRat
February 2, 2013, 09:41 AM
http://i1.cpcache.com/product_zoom/372818623/molon_labe_ceramic_travel_mug.jpg?height=160&width=160&padToSquare=true

Gun Geezer
February 2, 2013, 09:41 AM
The thing is this. The founders were living in tyranny and said "Give me liberty or give me death". They'd had enough and were a people unto themselves, not really English anymore. They were Colonials. Americans but not yet called that.

Appears to me those who question what they or others would be willing to do and just how far they are willing to go, just have not had enough tyranny yet.

Bammy, the .gov, and the judiciaryare steadly taking one freedom after another. At some point, we'll have had enough and there will be no doubt for some what some will be willing to do.

If a troop of blue helmets comes marching into town, I'm going to war with everything I've got. No doubt at all. If it's US Marines, I'm not ready to say I could do such a thing. I just pray God I'm not forced to choose cause I know I'll die if I choose liberty.

Sam1911
February 2, 2013, 09:43 AM
Some people have come to terms with the reality that they will die in their front yards, gun in hand. Oooh. Bad tactics.

Even these people, however, just illustrate my point. Until and unless they DO, it's just talk. (Meaning no disrespect at all!) A million guys will claim they will.

And, the by-far more likely probability is that they'd never get any opportunity to go out in a blaze of glory. A search-and-seizure warrant served while they're off at work, then a stop-and-frisk, followed by a cruiser ride off to the pokey is far more likely.

The reality of how any such things may ever go down is ugly, and it highly speculative.

The time to FIGHT is NOW, before any such things get off the ground.

JB357MAG
February 2, 2013, 09:51 AM
It will never get to the point where they will be coming
to our homes for our guns..........BUT if it does happen
I will consider anyone entering my home without my permision
to remove my private property as a criminal and I will defend my
home and property.

Jimmy

buck460XVR
February 2, 2013, 09:55 AM
Even if we are willing to do the math and make the personal pledge that we will never submit -- there's simply no way to utterly commit to being carried out in a body bag, past your orphan kids ... who will then surrender your guns anyway.


Sam is correct. Altho there is a lot of chest pounding and bravado going on lately here and on other gun forums, Giving up one's life or way of life for a mere material possession is highly questionable. While I love me guns, I also love me wife, my kids and watching my grandkids grow. If their lives or safety are being challenged it would be different, but just because I can no longer obtain a military assault clone and a high cap mag on the open market, I doubt if I'll go down in a hail of gunfire in a battle I cannot win. Besides, when Charlton Heston made that infamous statement, he was holding up an antique, single shot firearm, not a AR15 with a high cap mag. I figure at some point in this argument, antis will use that as ammo against us.

fallout mike
February 2, 2013, 09:57 AM
If it comes to this and you don't take up arms then you have no business owning guns. This was the reason our founding fathers put this right at the top of the constitution. To enable us to stand up to tyranny. They did not put in the 2nd amendment that we can have guns to hunt, target shoot, or whatever you do with them. I think they made it pretty clear. Every debate on gun control that comes up people here want to say that its to prevent tyranny. Then these same guys say they may just lay down and give them up? I say those people should go to your next local "gun buy back" and go ahead and turn them in now. If you wont make a stand if it comes to this then you will cower away from any and every thing the rest of your life and not worthy of the freedom you have that our forefathers fought and died to give us.

SaxonPig
February 2, 2013, 09:57 AM
Hmmmm... Yes, bragging is easy. We are all Rambo in our imaginations, but reality is a different story.

Nobody can say for sure what he will do until the situation is actually on him. I suspect 99% of the population will submit unless the enforcement gets heavy handed. If the law is passed requiring the surrender of firearms many would refuse. And one by one guns would be quietly confiscated. If done quietly, it will happen mostly without incident. If cops start sweeping neighborhoods, throwing people on the ground in their front yards while they tear the houses apart searching for contraband weapons, it might trigger a reaction. All it might take is one gunshot to start open rebellion.

If I were a young man with a family, I would likely not even contemplate putting my life at risk, even to defend my rights and principles. That's the fact. But I am not a young man. I have no dependents. And the prospect of dying in a hail of bullets from multiple MP5s, fighting for what I believe to be right, sounds more appealing than wasting away in a hospital bed regretting that I didn't stand up for what was right when I had the chance.

I think that if the government wants my gun, they will have to send someone to take it. When they get it, and I know they will get it, I want the barrel to be hot and the magazine empty.

Xfire68
February 2, 2013, 09:58 AM
A search-and-seizure warrant served while they're off at work, then a stop-and-frisk, followed by a cruiser ride off to the pokey is far more likely.

Don't you think that if these searches and seizures started happening that the word would get out and people would organize and prepare?

They most certainly do not have the manpower to perform enough seizures in a short enough time to make any real difference before people would either hide illegal items and our better ready themselves.

pendennis
February 2, 2013, 09:58 AM
During the 1960's, I read about, and experienced the civil rights movement. While not raised in the so-called "Deep South", I saw the marches, sit-ins, and other means of civil disobedience, by a minority of Americans who were fed up with being second-class citizens.

These folks were willing to suffer beatings, fire-hose assaults, jailings, and violations of the Bill of Rights, just to get the 1964 Civil Rights and Voting Rights Acts passed.

However, a few years later, when Federal judges issued orders mandating forced school busing, the folks affected by these court rulings were unwilling to apply the same resistance to court orders. They had civil disturbances a few times, but never had the courage to sit down in front of school buses, defying court orders.

The stark difference, is that blacks were at the end of the rope, and they felt they had nothing to lose. The whites, in the 1970's, had jobs and homes, and figured the struggle wasn't worth it.

As gun owners, and proponents of RKBA, we have to ask ourselves if we are willing to use the same means to insure that our civil rights are insured, or will it be like forced busing, and not worth our comfort?

TIMC
February 2, 2013, 09:59 AM
Now that I am older, maybe wiser and defenitely crankier I find I get really worked up at the thought of gun confiscation. I think I would rather fight than give them up. I would hope there would be many more willing to band together and make a stand to at least let the agressors know they will have to earn them and payment will be high.

I sincerly hope it would never come to that and I can die old in my bed knowing my grandchildrens rights are protected!

fallout mike
February 2, 2013, 10:00 AM
Sam, I agree with you that it could start that way, but then everyone would know and could plan accordingly. They can't hit every house while people are at work one day across the entire country.

Sam1911
February 2, 2013, 10:01 AM
I will consider anyone entering my home without my permision
to remove my private property as a criminal and I will defend my
home and property.
Right. Of course. But that's what makes these threads so difficult to take seriously. We all have this idea of how such a thing would go down, as though there's going to be a big truck going house-to-house knocking on front doors.

Like I said before -- your blaze of glory is more of a fizzle if those tasked with such confiscations have any idea of strategy. Who are you going to shoot if they come clean you out while you're at work and pick you up in your company's parking lot on your way out to your car? Or any of 100 such very workable strategies?

Fight NOW. Wasting time contemplating having to make a final stand among the sand bags and ammo cans is just entertaining yourself.

J-Bar
February 2, 2013, 10:04 AM
Take the battle to the ballot box:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jeYscnFpEyA

jimbo555
February 2, 2013, 10:06 AM
For me it's not tyranny if it's a law passed by congress. An executive order is something different.

Sam1911
February 2, 2013, 10:10 AM
Sam, I agree with you that it could start that way, but then everyone would know and could plan accordingly. They can't hit every house while people are at work one day across the entire country.Oh, sure. Plan accordingly, though? What does that mean? Stop going to work? Stop living life so you can sit at home and wait for the end to come?

And if these things start, these guys aren't going to be held up as heroes who died for a cause, they're going to be "crackpots" sitting in jail. The "scary loner with an arsenal and dangerous munitions stockpiled for the apocalypse ..." or however the press will say it.

Look, I'm not in any way saying to lay down your arms or turn them in. I'm saying it's a dead-end road. If we have to turn that way, well ... we simply must fight hard enough NOW not to ever have to turn that way.

If you've spent any time contemplating and preparing yourself for a B-O-G end, spend 10x that much effort going to visit your representatives and Senators, writing, emailing, calling, donating, organizing, taking people shooting, etc., etc.

The fight is NOW. Not in a pile of spent brass when "they" come for you. If you think you're ready to face the "end game" FIGHT like it's END GAME NOW. If you believe you can commit everything THEN? Commit everything NOW.

fallout mike
February 2, 2013, 10:11 AM
So if congress just starts making laws in direct violation of our constitution then its ok with you? Congress says we all have to practice islam, turn in our guns, and receive a chip in our foreheads in order to participate in commerce then you would readily do it bc congress said its the law? So its not tyranny right?

Lex Luthier
February 2, 2013, 10:13 AM
Thank you men for keeping this ON the high road. These are serious questions and require thoughtful responses. I just needed some reassurance this morning.

My wife would not move away from her family and her job. She is just how she is, and 2A/ guns are not as important to her, no matter how much I imply it. I have some friends out of state with whom I could bunk up and we could hold our own, but at a great cost to my current satisfaction in life. The prospect of leaving a job I love and changing everything at this stage in life is daunting to say the least. God bless you guys.

Arkansas Paul
February 2, 2013, 10:15 AM
What would it take for you to give up your job, home, and everything else to make your point?

It's not about making a point. It's about whether you would rather die on your feet or live on your knees.

Xfire68
February 2, 2013, 10:19 AM
Fight NOW. Wasting time contemplating having to make a final stand among the sand bags and ammo cans is just entertaining yourself.

I am sure many of us are fighting now. I know I am made the calls, sent the letters/emails and made the donations.

I think the question really is asking if laws were passed that made many of us felons if we did not comply. What would you do?

I feel there are enough real patriots in this great land of ours that freedoms that are in our Constitution will be realized for many generations to come.

The day when the second amendment has died is the same day this country dies.

Arkansas Paul
February 2, 2013, 10:22 AM
Giving up one's life or way of life for a mere material possession is highly questionable.

If it were mere material possessions at stake, I would wholeheartedly agree. However, that is far from the truth. Firearms are not mere material possessions friend. To take them away, takes our freedom away. If you wouldn't fight for freedom, what would you fight for?

fallout mike
February 2, 2013, 10:22 AM
Jimbo, since King George III was making the calls in the late 1700's do you consider his doings to not be tyranny? It wasn't just a rogue gov't or anything. He was the one making the calls.

Sam1911
February 2, 2013, 10:27 AM
It's not about making a point. It's about whether you would rather die on your feet or live on your knees.Or about the grey area between having everything you think you should have and incrementally giving up some things so that you can keep living more or less on your feet and your family doesn't suffer the loss of their husband, father, and breadwinner.

I mean, face it -- we have already given up a LOT of the rights the Constitution seems to say we should have. We are not pure Constitutionalists unwilling to "live on our knees." If you want to draw a line in the sand, that's great. But that line has been nibbled and nibbled, and likely will continue to be nibbled. When the choice isn't "GIVE UP YOUR GUNS" but is "you can't buy any more 30 round mags," what then? When it is "add a bullet button?" When it is "no new semi-autos?" When it is turn in the AR you've already neutered with no-full-auto, no bayonet lug, no pistol grip, no high-cap mag no....?"

Soundbites are great, but when the reality doesn't happen like that "Molon Lebe" soundbite, every one starts to quibble. You have already. I have too. Fight the fight that is REAL. You probably won't get the chance to fight the one you dream of.

fallout mike
February 2, 2013, 10:30 AM
Sam, plan accordingly, could likely mean to adhere to the true meaning of the 2nd. I agree with you that we need to fight now. I also realize that there are a lot of hypotheticals we are discussing, but, if this was to ever happen then the time for talk and debate would be long past. You would have 3 choices. Fight hide, or become enslaved.

Sam1911
February 2, 2013, 10:34 AM
I think the question really is asking if laws were passed that made many of us felons if we did not comply. What would you do? Oh, I'm sure we'd all do what many have done...squirrel things away praying against hope that no one ever comes and finds them. Bury stuff in the ground or the walls where it is no good to us or anyone else -- so it can be found by our heirs or someone later and turned in for destruction just like is done with WWII bring-back machine guns now.

You want to make a political statement? Take that stuff you're supposed to turn in and announce to the world that you have it and will not give it up. Call the local police and tell them who you are, what you have, and that you will kill and die to keep it. You'll lose in the end, and pretty quickly, too, but maybe if 1,000 or 10,000 of these events happen, that would make a difference. Whether that difference would be good or bad for us in the end is impossible to say, but it would be a whole lot more effective than burying your guns.

If you have to bury them, the fight is lost.

blkbrd666
February 2, 2013, 10:34 AM
Well, most if this thread is sad and downright embarrassing. I sure hope the antis don't see this one or tomorrow's headline will read, "25 years of estrogenic food supply has effectively turned the United States into a Kingdom!...Government has won as all the men have laid down their weapons.".

...and Charlie Brown screams, "GOOD GRIEF, people!'.

Sam1911
February 2, 2013, 10:35 AM
Sam, plan accordingly, could likely mean to adhere to the true meaning of the 2nd.What does that MEAN? Form a militia? Kill folks?

hso
February 2, 2013, 10:41 AM
Questions like this are absurd when we have a political struggle and subsequent court battles still to go.

If someone were even willing to contemplate giving their life and loosing all their days why wouldn't they put forth the effort to avoid getting there? Why wouldn't they get up and get politically involved in the fight? Why wouldn't they make a call, make an appointment and make their elected officials understand that if people are willing to contemplate sacrificing ALL after the passage of a law that the government tries to enforce that they'll spend all their time and money to live in a free country to destroy the political careers of politicians that will push them and others to the wall?

fallout mike
February 2, 2013, 10:48 AM
Im pretty sure the 2nd isn't in there to kill people Sam. We are just basically beating our chest here. We are discussing a unlikely hypothetical, and I normally don't do such. Im done.

Sam1911
February 2, 2013, 10:48 AM
hso makes the point better than I did.

If you think you're willing to DIE in front of your family, or spend a long sad life in prison, for your own line in the sand on gun rights -- quit your job, volunteer with NRA, SAF, etc. and devote your life to 2nd Amendment activism. Give that gun and ammo money to NRA-ILA, SAF, even GOA or NAGR if you want.

A preacher once said, "I keep hearing that folks are willing to DIE for Jesus, "I'm willing to die for Jesus" they say. Where are the people who are willing to LIVE for Jesus?"

Not trying to take this in a religious direction, if you think you will DIE for gun rights -- that means nothing if you aren't sold-out committed to spending the life you have day-in and day-out in that fight. Your LIFE could be more valuable than the DEATH you say you'll give.

2ifbyC
February 2, 2013, 10:52 AM
I have approached this question from the angle of probability.

First, who is coming after your guns? It would have to be the US Government and not the State since state laws stop at their borders.

It would have to be an order from the POTUS. So letís say a law in passed that requires all guns to be confiscated. Prior to this action, there would have to be laws that registered all gun owners so they knew who owned the guns. Also, the 2A would have to be repealed.

Skipping ahead, you registered your guns but did not turn them in at the deadline. Now POTUS orders confiscation. Now letís think about who will be arriving at your door to get your guns. Letís say itís the US armed forces.

Out of 300,000,000 guns, 100,000,000 remain in the hands of the renegades. How are these guns going to be confiscated? Door to door combat? Do you think US troops will fire on their own citizens to carry out this order? Imprisonment? Will due process be eliminated? Do we have enough jails to house the offenders?

I could go on. It reminds me of a line from the Wizard of OZ, ďNot no way, not no howĒ. The worst would be by attrition; the elimination of ammo and guns sales to private individuals. Even then, you can count on the black market for keeping you armed.

btg3
February 2, 2013, 10:59 AM
If it were mere material possessions at stake, I would wholeheartedly agree.
Historically, material possessions have not been the issue, but increasingly for the former minority of have-nots who now have significant voting power, material possessions may well be a greater concern than the fundamental rights of this nation.

It may be argued that economic collapse, moreso than anti-gunners, threaten the 2A and other liberties we enjoy.

Also read up on George Soros.

Alexander Fraser Tytler said:

A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.

Seventhsword
February 2, 2013, 11:11 AM
If it were mere material possessions at stake, I would wholeheartedly agree. However, that is far from the truth. Firearms are not mere material possessions friend. To take them away, takes our freedom away. If you wouldn't fight for freedom, what would you fight for?
^^^+1

hso
February 2, 2013, 11:16 AM
if you think you will DIE for gun rights -- that means nothing if you aren't sold-out committed to spending the life you have day-in and day-out in that fight. Your LIFE could be more valuable than the DEATH you say you'll give.

That's the point right there. If you're not willing to fight each and every day in the political and social struggle to prevent politicians from taking away this right, then claiming you're willing to give your life after the fact is backwards.

zxcvbob
February 2, 2013, 11:25 AM
First, who is coming after your guns? It would have to be the US Government and not the State since state laws stop at their borders.


One of the problems is, the states are enacting gun confiscation laws (or are trying to.) I have to work for a living and raise my family, while the legislators have all the time in the world being paid by my tax dollars to scheme new ways to screw me.

I've been fighting them with letters and political donations, and in the courts via the NRA and SAF. I will not register my guns. If they pass a magazine ban, I guess I will hide them until the law is overturned or until I can move to a freer state (that'll be a few years because of the job market)

armarsh
February 2, 2013, 11:30 AM
I feel for the other folks in MN. It is very easy for me to move to neighboring SD. I'm already planning on doing it to take advantage of lower taxes, but this just adds further motivation.

fiddleharp
February 2, 2013, 11:31 AM
Post #16 reminds me of that long-ago day when forced busing came to my community. I was overseas in the service and a letter from my mother mentioned how our entire neighbohood was in an uproar over a court order to bus their kids to a dangerous ghetto school at the other end of the county.
Mom said the wild anger of folks she'd known for years truly frightened her and she thought some sort of insurrection might break out.
I smiled and wrote back, reassuring her that the government would surely back down in the face of such widespread rage, and our neighborhood kids would continue attending our neighborhood schools like they always had.
Yeah, right! :rolleyes:
Upon my next home leave, I saw the neighborhood kids milling around in the pre-dawn darkness, waiting for their bus to the ghetto.
Head hanging down, I said to my mom: "If they'll take this, they'll take anything!"
Those words were spoken more than forty years ago, and they're still true today.
Our tyrants don't even have to be subtle about it anymore. They're not the least bit afraid of us. They know us better than we know ourselves.
They know that we are materialistic, self-absorbed couch potatoes who don't even know the names of our local elected representatives, much less their phone numbers or e-mail addresses.
Oops! Look at the time!
Gotta go and get the place ready for the Super Bowl party! :cool::cool::cool:

fdashes
February 2, 2013, 11:34 AM
I am a veteran that served faithfully in the late 60's and early 70's. I have seen and witnessed what most of the people here have probably only read about. Yes war is horrible and to take someones life is to take his everything. It also devistates his family and effects his relatives and friends. I know all that. I am 64 years old and in great physical and mental condition. I helped raise a wonderful family. I have a great wife, kids, and grandkids. I also live in and understand what a fabulous country America is. The best parts of my life have already been lived. I did my job in life for my God, family, and country. I have a family that fully realizes who I am and what I believe in. I will try to protect the Constitution of the United States and I will do that with my life. I know and understand that as does my family. Yes, I will stand and fight.

Onward Allusion
February 2, 2013, 12:15 PM
Let's put it this way. Those that rant and rave about "cold dead fingers" aren't likely to do a damn thing. Just like those who brag about being such-and-such when they were....blah, blah, blah... I mean *brag*, not just reference it from time to time as a statement of fact & experience.

zxcvbob
February 2, 2013, 12:16 PM
If I do have to make a "last stand", I'd rather not do it at my house.

Let's put it this way. Those that rant and rave about "cold dead fingers" aren't likely to do a damn thing. Just like those who brag about being such-and-such when they were....blah, blah, blah...


Not sure what you're point is. What about those who don't say anything?

Hokkmike
February 2, 2013, 12:33 PM
It is a good question. Time is drawing near. We do have an alternative though.

The House is on our side. We can add reasonable voices to both the House and the Senate in 2014. And then we can put a real American in the White House in 2016.


Let's get to work on this FIRST!

TCB in TN
February 2, 2013, 12:38 PM
I have thought about this a great deal, and my hope is that I can stay where I am, live my life as I like and that be the end of it. I am currently looking towards the possibility of needing to eventually move to a more remote part of our nation to do those things. I would rather do that than to "go out in a blaze of glory". But I do believe that we should live as citizens, not serfs. Just hope it doesn't get to the point in which I can't live that way.

Airbrush Artist
February 2, 2013, 12:48 PM
My Algonquin Heritage and My Father and Grandfather have instilled into me that beliefs are worth Dying for when it ends your Freedom too live and Choose, and even more for Myself personally the added influence of having been married to my wife a Sicilian for 40 years who was raised within a Cosa Nostra family.Everyday Americans are Dying to protect Us and Our freedom and we should be willing to die here in American as well fighting the Enemy within Our very land.There is a old Algonquin story of a Great Chief who people were ran from their homes and Hunting grounds,after weiry battles and death among His Tribe from the loss of everything He decided with all the support of His tribe,that they would run no more,they would fight. The day come for their stand in a Valley surrounded by their enemy..with His Tribe of Warriors Women and Children and The Aged ,as the Chief sat Upon His horse surrounded by His Warriors he looked up at a beautiful Blue Sky in the bright Sunshine,and said To Them."TODAY IS A GOOD DAY TO DIE!!! and They Did...

PedalBiker
February 2, 2013, 12:50 PM
"I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country."

Spoken by George C. Scott in the film Patton.

buck460XVR
February 2, 2013, 01:11 PM
Along with the chest pounding and bravado, folks are assuming that their "fight to the end" will be a glorious one and they will be immortalized to their family and the world. Truth is, odds are almost non-existent that total gun confiscation will ever happen, and if it does, our country will have no resemblance to what it is now. Long before you die with your "cold dead hands" wrapped around your last firearm in resistance to our present government, you will probably be killed over food, water, a way to heat your home, or another individual wanting your weapons. Long before a "tyranny" is imposed, there will be mass chaos and our way of life in America as we know it now will be a distant memory. If this does happen, you really think those after your weapons will respect your family and allow them to live if you resist? You really think they will call you out of your house instead of burning it to the ground with you and your family in it? You really think you will know they are even coming? You really think they will hesitate put a bullet thru your grandaughters brain if you don't come out with your hands up and guns exposed? Odds are tho, she already would have been killed just because you resisted, or the other members of your family would have given up your guns to save themselves from the same fate. You really think your family would respect your stand on keeping your guns while they watch their loved ones being butchered in front of them? Folks need to get real. Nobody here is Clint Eastwood in "Gran Torino". Claiming you will stand and fight with honor without considering how things would really go down is just a pipe dream.


As Sam said, the real fight we can win is right now. We still live in a country where people in charge are there because we voted them into that position or they were chosen by others we voted in. Most of those same folks like their job well enough that they will continue to do as the majority of their constituents want. If we fall outta that majority and the rules change, we will not be Martyrs in the war for our God given rights....we will just be criminals.

PedalBiker
February 2, 2013, 01:19 PM
Along with the chest pounding and bravado, folks are assuming that their "fight to the end" will be a glorious one and they will be immortalized to their family and the world. Truth is, odds are almost non-existent that total gun confiscation will ever happen, and if it does, our country will have no resemblance to what it is now. Long before you die with your "cold dead hands" wrapped around your last firearm in resistance to our present government, you will probably be killed over food, water, a way to heat your home, or another individual wanting your weapons.

England has pretty much total confiscation. It's not Mad Max over there.

I agree the "cold dead hands" stuff is just bumper sticker fodder.

I'll give up my guns if I deem it necessary to the health/welfare and safety of my family.

On the other hand some times you need to draw the line. Plenty of folks stood up to Hitler and history doesn't put them all down as common criminals. Every tyrant is different and they come in different ways.

pezo
February 2, 2013, 01:22 PM
I'd say the best advice would be to hide any affected weapons. I understand you couldn't enjoy them any more however the basic concern is gun prohibition/confiscation occurs before a people are rounded up arrested and enslaved. If the jews would have procured and hidden firearms they could have resisted. The French resistance in the Second World War couldn't have had enough firearms. To fight and die at the point of confiscation doesn't make sense but neither does turning in the weapons. Their is also the probability of an unpopular ban being overturned at a later time. Fighting and dying to prevent a specific gun control law may not be worth it but having the weapons available in case it's you or your kind being rounded off like the jews in Europe years ago. I am a young man with a family. My obligation is to be there for them as long as I can. If the govt tries to take some or all of my guns well then they will be missing and ill fight the political fight. If god forbid a corrupted government comes to round up family, me and my neighbors well then missing guns may magically re appear.

gym
February 2, 2013, 01:26 PM
It all depends on the individual and if they prepared for such an event . the obvious most non lethal thing to do, is to move, if all else fails.
Moving is the ultimate freedom expression which hurts no one. You can live someware you hate being because of restrictions placed upon you, or leave.
There is no reason "at this point" for nay violence to be concerned with while that option is open to you.If we all founs ourselves in a position where we were in a dozen pro gun states, they would feel the economic effects of the mistake they made.
I would rather be at peace someplace, than at war someplace else. It may eventually be unavoidable, but not now. We are starting to influence the Govt. enough to let this go by with minor things that end up sticking, and those will get repealled. For now I would sit tight and start looking for a different state to live in if things get worse.

ToraBoraBlues
February 2, 2013, 01:30 PM
I took an oath. Don't see that I have a choice in the matter except how to implement it.

xXxplosive
February 2, 2013, 01:42 PM
Some of you fellas here don't get it by your comments here.....forget about your guns, they'll be comming for your Rights as an American if that happens......firearms are only the tools to preserve those rights if necessary.

Just consider for one moment what a Government can do to it's citizenry if they don't have the ability to stand up for themselves.......just look at the Middle East.

yokel
February 2, 2013, 01:44 PM
If it comes to this and you don't take up arms then you have no business owning guns. This was the reason our founding fathers put this right at the top of the constitution. To enable us to stand up to tyranny. They did not put in the 2nd amendment that we can have guns to hunt, target shoot, or whatever you do with them. I think they made it pretty clear. Every debate on gun control that comes up people here want to say that its to prevent tyranny. Then these same guys say they may just lay down and give them up? I say those people should go to your next local "gun buy back" and go ahead and turn them in now. If you wont make a stand if it comes to this then you will cower away from any and every thing the rest of your life and not worthy of the freedom you have that our forefathers fought and died to give us.

Indeed, being armed is ultimately meaningless if you're not prepared to put your fate in your own hands and make the irrevocable decision to fight to the death in the defense of your liberty and sovereignty.

Organizing letter writing campaigns and making financial contributions to advocacy groups is all well and good, however, should possibilities for a peaceful reconciliation of differences regarding the fundamental Constitutional rights of all Americans be exhausted, employing nonpeaceful means and other necessary measures can not be off the table.

If it is off the table, then this is all just an empty charade and a joke when you get right down to it, and we really needn't have arms or a Second Amendment.

JRH6856
February 2, 2013, 01:46 PM
IF there is national registration, followed by an order of confiscation of certain weapons of a certain class, there will first be a call for, to quote Feinstein, "Mr and Mrs. American, turn 'em in!" Many will do just that, and life will go on.

This will be repeated for class after class of firearems until there are only a few type that may be legally possessed. Then 2A will be repealed (if it hasn't already been reinterpreted by SCOTUS so as to be meaningless in modern society).

During all of this, there will be increasing incidents of DHS/ATF searches and seizures of illegal weapons in the course of criminal investigations. Most of these will probably go down as Sam1911 suggests: the search and seizure will take place separte from the arrest which will be made while the suspect is away from home; at work, dropping the kids off at school, "routine" traffic stop. If reportedm the MSM will certainly report these incidents putting the "suspect" in the worst light possible and most of the general public won't even take notice, and life will go on.

If the suspect resists, it will be considered by MSM as evidence of guilt, there will be inferences of a history of criminal activity, mental illness, extremism, racism, hate speech, etc. The general public will say, Good! another nut job off the streets." And live will go on.

By the time they get around to coming for the guns of ordinary citizens, we will be seen as "just another nut job" if anyone notices at all. And life will go on.

There will be no "One if by land and two if by sea", no Paul Revere spreading the alarm. There will be no muster of the local militia to resist the march of tyranny. Say what you will about what you will do, but if we do it individually and independently, we will each be just one more nut job among many. For everyone else, live will go on.

As Sam says, the time to stop it is NOW, before it goes that far. Because as Ben Franklin said, "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately."

gym
February 2, 2013, 02:17 PM
Skiing, Social security is the right of Americans who paid into it all their lives. I paid for 200 employees for 25 years, and i'll be dogone if someone tells me me it's an entitlement. If that was the case then I shold have been asked if I chose to donate to it.
The "free for all", people who never put anything in is where the problem lies not the good hardworking people who paid their taxes all their lives. Why should an unwed mother get $144,000 a year with 5 kids out of wedlock with 5 different fathers, and get a free house, food stamps and free electricity, out of the money that I paid in?
That is fact, the "obamacare" and general welfare and public assistance is a scam made in order to support people who never worked a day in their life.
This is how he got into office, forget every other issue, it was the folks who want that Obama money that got him the edge.
So don't make it sound that honest business people who paid in for 30 or 40 years got anything for free. If they want to just give me back what I paid in plus interest, I would have millions of extra dollars laying around.
And we are not going to lose our rights as some have mentioned, before that happens there will be a civil war.The price will be too high,as we are seeing now, as I sit and watch CNN, they are trying domestic terrorism on the gun manufacturers. Stopping the banks that do business with from continuing to be involved with Ruger and S&W, what we need to do is start pulling money out of those banks instead of worrying about what will happen later. I will pull out all of my familys money ffrom BOA if they continue to align themselves with this administrations efforts to attack the manufacturers as should everyone who is like minded. They will end up hurting themselves.
We have a chance to stop this outright harrasment right now, if we let off the gas then it's our own fault.
They already have shifted down into second gear on the issues. We need then to turn off the engine completely.
The letters and emails are working, keep at it and we will beat them again, politicians jump ship when things don't go their way, they have too many other things to worry about, and guns right now are not a popular thing to go after.

nathan
February 2, 2013, 02:33 PM
The American Patriots spilled their blood for freedom in 1774. If it happens today, i wonder if Americans are willing to sacrifice blood for that same freedom. That is a $64 milion dollar question.

JRH6856
February 2, 2013, 02:37 PM
At this moment, there another thread posted on this forum regarding a DHS raid which seized the collection of an Albuquerque collector of Curios and Antiques. As of the time of the report, no charges had been filed but there were "rumors" of import/export violations for which DHS is hoping to find evidence.

This is how it will be done. One at a time.

After Lexington and Concord, the British returned to Boston and awoke the next morning to find the city surrounded by 15,000 armed militia. How many "patriots" are marching to Albuquerque? Is anybody here headed that way? I didn't think so. Because one incident involving a stranger is not enough to spur action. Beside, he might be guilty so best we just wait and see. But we won't see because we will go back to our daily lives and forget. Until the next time.

JohnBiltz
February 2, 2013, 02:39 PM
Fighting in the streets is a waste of time and lives. If it comes to that go for them and their leaders where they live, be a guerrilla.

Steel Horse Rider
February 2, 2013, 02:52 PM
I don't believe I have changed much in my personal beliefs over the almost 60 year course of my life and if I am to become a criminal it is not because I have changed something but that those making the laws have made my philosophy illegal. Our founders and those who were in positions of leadership during the Revolutionary War put not only themselves at risk, but also their families, property, and futures so that we have been able to enjoy the fruits of the seeds they planted 236 years ago. Most lost some and, as the saying goes, some gave all including their fortunes and families in order that we might squander it away over self-interest and envy. I know where I stand, and I believe most of my family will be standing beside me in spirit as I am with them even though we are scattered across this great land. As Ben Franklin purportedly said, "If we don't hang together we will certainly be hung separately". If even a quarter of the population resists an unlawful (when judged in the light of Constitutional and natural law) order the country can be saved as the government does not have the manpower or legal capacity to deal with that number of individuals.

The flip side is to harrumph but docilely comply with whatever nonsense they spew as we all form lines to the gas chambers, in a metaphorical way. I refuse to sacrifice the miracle my ancestors gave me that calmly.

mnrivrat
February 2, 2013, 03:01 PM
It is our duty still to endeavor to avoid war; but if it shall actually take place, no matter by whom brought on, we must defend ourselves. If our house be on fire, without inquiring whether it was fired from within or without, we must try to extinguish it.
Thomas Jefferson

I think there was wisdom in some of our countries founders that will always stand the test of time.

jungle
February 2, 2013, 03:02 PM
Why not listen to the voice of experience, it makes it clear that 100% do not have to resist. A very small percentage can bring things to a grinding halt.



ďAnd how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?... The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If...if...We didn't love freedom enough. And even more Ė we had no awareness of the real situation.... We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.Ē
― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

USAF_Vet
February 2, 2013, 03:18 PM
For me it's not tyranny if it's a law passed by congress. An executive order is something different.
Laws that get passed in Congress are still capable of being unconstitutional and still capable of being overturned. An unconstitutional law should be disobeyed, and it is your obligation to do so.

The congress of New York State just passed a law that many people consider unconstitutional. Are you saying that you would give up your rights and refuse to fight for them just because congress passed an unconstitutional law? Where would we be if we didn't call tyranny out for what it is?

meanmrmustard
February 2, 2013, 03:26 PM
http://i1.cpcache.com/product_zoom/372818623/molon_labe_ceramic_travel_mug.jpg?height=160&width=160&padToSquare=true
This IS SPARTA!!!

Seriously, I'll either fight and come back with my S&W Shield, or on it.

jungle
February 2, 2013, 03:27 PM
It is in the interest of all parties to concentrate on the perpetrators of gun violence, it is in none of our best interest to punish lawful gun owners.

The idea that military or LEO force can settle all disputes is never correct. Look at the war going on in Mexico, just a few people have managed to cripple any sense of justice and create wide scale disruption.

We don't want this here, and I hope that all of us understand why it won't work.

The military and LEO are composed entirely of citizens and they are not devoid of their sense of justice. I suspect they may bring things to a halt long before some politicos come to their senses.

jim243
February 2, 2013, 03:41 PM
History has already shown us what will happen if we give in or give up. Labor camps, gulags, prisions, death camps, relocation centers, re-education camps, call them what you want but the end result will be the same. If you mistakenly think this is about guns, you are being foolish.

The psych-ops campaign has already started and it is working since you already are thinking of what you should or shouldn't do. There is no doubt as to what their goal is, now you need to decide what your goal should be. That will determine what you will or will not do in the future.

It is said that "those that do not learn from history are condemed to repeat it."

Jim

btg3
February 2, 2013, 04:01 PM
I am a veteran that served faithfully in the late 60's and early 70's. ... I helped raise a wonderful family. I have a great wife, kids, and grandkids. I also live in and understand what a fabulous country America is. The best parts of my life have already been lived. I did my job in life for my God, family, and country. I have a family that fully realizes who I am and what I believe in. I will try to protect the Constitution of the United States and I will do that with my life. I know and understand that as does my family. Yes, I will stand and fight.

It is essential that such values are passed along to subsequent generations. Yet our success rate seems to decline with each generation.

316SS
February 2, 2013, 04:05 PM
No one has yet mentioned Canada's registration scheme? The one that coughed and died because of massive non-compliance?

If some significant percentage of gun owners refused to comply with registration/confiscation, some with the support of local law enforcement*, the Feds would be at a complete loss to enforce the laws. They can't arrest millions of us even if they wanted to. Not only is it not necessary to "go out in a blaze of glory," it would probably be counterproductive.

*Based on the sheriffs who have pledged not to aid in the enforcement of new gun laws.

gym
February 2, 2013, 04:06 PM
There is an elitist element in this country that would love to turn this country into a dictatorship "without calling it that". Eventually every great society goes through tests of time, and only thrive if they can adjust.
But adjusting doesn't include changing the principles that the Democracy was founded upon..
When men such as those who would like to take complete power, indeed try to do so, you either roll over, or roll over them. We have a large percentage of the population, who just go along, with whoever makes their life less complicated. They use this to maneuver within the framework, ever expanding their interpretation of the Rules, "Constitution", until they have changed it to suit their needs.
We must at various points put our foot down and stop this kind of behavior, regardless of how inconvenient it is to do so at the time, or we risk lose our Country to those who chose to be in charge with no accountability.
This I believe is one of those times.
We saw how in just a few short weeks, we were able to mobilize enough of our patriots to stop what looked like a sure fire ban on everything we held dear. Now we should take the time to push this forward to where it doesn't come back to bite us in the butt. It's put up or shut up time.
Keep the letters and emails, organize rally’s and educate people so they understand that there are those who are using this as a vehicle to disarm the population so that if they do decide to go further, there will be no one to stop them.
Having worked as a DOD subcontractor, "when I was a young man" at a defense plant, I wondered why we sold so many countries jet planes and missile systems etc.My dad woke me up and explained, it's all about the "spare parts" we can sell them all the fighters they want, but we control all the parts that keep them flying , and train their pilots, "who we never trained like we do our own", granted this was 40 yrs ago, but the same holds true today, we need to watch the supply trail, they are going after the manufacturers, and ammo people next, if they control that then the weapons are useless.
We must be vigilant on all fronts, not just assault weapons, that was just a foot in the door, they have plans for us unless we make a clear statement "now" that we are not going to allow this to happen.

Sam1911
February 2, 2013, 04:07 PM
It is essential that such values are passed along to subsequent generations. Yet our success rate seems to decline with each generation.Remember that every generation has felt this way about the next. Don't lose heart.

JRH6856
February 2, 2013, 04:31 PM
There will be no blue helmets or black helicopters. They will not come in body armor carrying battle rifles. They will come in suits carrying pieces of paper—search warrants, arrest warrants, subpoenas—all lawful orders of the court. The 2nd Amendment may find itself trumped by the 14th.

The right to keep and bear arms may be protected, but the right to use arms is heavily proscribed and it is illegal to use force to resist a lawful court order. If found guilty of doing so, you may lose any remaining right to keep and bear.

But, none of this happens overnight. There is no armed insurrection so there is no need for immediate action by the govt. on a broad scale. They have time on their side. As noted, we seem to lose ground with each passing generation.

The title of this thread is "Cold, dead finger. Really?" and asks who is prepared to go that far to resist confiscation. But the most draconian federal proposal we face, (AWB 2013) says nothing about confiscation. It bans a class of weapons; says you may not import, manufacture or sell that class of weapons. But it says you may keep the ones you already have. You may not sell them, give them away, leave them to your heirs, but you may keep them until you die. Then the government will take them...from your cold, dead fingers. I don't think that is what Heston had in mind, but it is what he promised.

mastiffhound
February 2, 2013, 04:38 PM
This idea of fighting for liberty is terrifying. It should scare the crap out of anyone, I know it scares the crap out of me. The "cold dead hands" scenario would be a horrifying thing to happen to say the least. Most would go quietly, reguardless of what they say. In the Revolutionary War everyone wasn't on the same page, if confiscation did happen you can bet it would be the same way.

Would some fight? Yes, I'm sure some would. They would be branded as terrorists, cultists, psycos, and many other things by our media. Both the "give up" and "cold dead hands" groups would do it for the same reasons though. Mostly to protect their families and their way of life.

A brave few fought in the Revolutionary War so many could take part in freedom. Were these courageous men scared? Hell yes they were! Facing down a line of expertly trained British regulars and their cavalry with a musket and a bunch of fellow farmers would make me want to crap my pants. It doesn't mean they were lesser men. They fought because it kept getting worse and knew it would only continue to do so. It was fear that drove them. The fear of their lives and their families lives getting worse was higher than the fear of fighting and possibly dying. The British underestimated what fear could do. The British had very little fear, they were the greatest army on the planet. What could a few farmers really do? Apparently a lot.

I don't know what I would do, I wouldn't say if I did. All I know is when people are cornered, like animals, they are dangerous. I couldn't harbor any animosity towards either camp of thought. They are doing what they think is right for their families. Last time I checked free thought is, well, free. I refuse to judge either camp, as should no one else. Take care of your own family. Be active and vocal in your local, state, and national politics. I can only say freedom isn't free, it has to be fought for. Verbally first, physically as a last resort.

buck460XVR
February 2, 2013, 04:52 PM
People talk about tyranny and the Government coming for their guns and the need to fight. But as of now the biggest threat to responsible gun ownership is not tyrants, or the government. It is your neighbor down the street, or your aunt Matilda living out west in Antigunifornia. They are the ones that help decide the elections and put those folks in power that can change the laws. Who is the single mom next door gonna trust when it comes time to vote? The nice guy from the Brady Campaign that spoke at the PTA meeting where they served those delicious toffee bars afterwards, or the ranting gun owner next door that claims he would rather have a shoot out in his front yard than give up his Hi-Cap magazines? Maybe if we took the time to educate and show her the advantages of having a armed neighbor next door as opposed to being a possible threat to her, she might vote our way. This is the war we can fight now. This is the fight we are now losing, because many refuse to believe it is even going on. They would rather boast about what they'll do later, when the time comes. Truth is, the time to do something is now, so we don't have to worry about later.

stonecutter2
February 2, 2013, 05:01 PM
No one knows how they will react when under pressure like that. Many might freeze up, no matter their preconceived reaction to the threat. Others might not.

Regardless of fantasy-laden visions of being a hero and refusing to give up your guns in a confiscation scenario, we are fortunate to be Americans. We don't need to actually face these situations, if we put our system to work in the way it's meant to. Let your voice be heard to your representatives.

Tell me this.

If the will of the people of America (by representation in Congress) be that certain limits are placed on rights we currently enjoy, and you refuse to acknowledge the will of the people...what does that make you?

I'll put it another way. What do you treasure more? Possessing guns, or being an American? I value being an American more. And man, I love guns and shooting. If the law changes as such that I must comply, I will comply. Because I believe in this country, through good times and bad. Even if my vote isn't the one that chooses the leader, or the law is shaped in a way that I didn't vote for, I accept it. It's the American way and I don't want it any other way, thank you very much.

yokel
February 2, 2013, 05:08 PM
"The majority, oppressing an individual, is guilty of a crime, abuses its strength, and by acting on the law of the strongest breaks up the foundations of society." --Thomas Jefferson to Pierre Samuel Dupont de Nemours, 1816


Don't forget that pure democracy is a form of collectivism -- it readily sacrifices individual rights to majority wishes. Since it involves no Constitutional Bill of Rights, or at least, no working and effective one, the majority-of-the-moment can and does vote away the rights of the minority-of-the-moment, even of a single individual. This has been called 'mob rule,' the 'tyranny of the majority' and many other pejorative names. It is one of the greatest threats to liberty, the reason why America's Founding Fathers wrote so much so disparagingly of pure democracy.

Collectivism demands that the group be more important than the individual. It requires the individual to sacrifice himself for the alleged good of the group.

It sounds humane because it stresses the importance of human needs. In reality, it is little more than a rationalization for sacrificing you and me to the desires of others.

jimbo555
February 2, 2013, 05:10 PM
I watched the recent hearings in the senate and the votes are not there for the awb or magazine restrictions. The law expert on the panel said that the recent supreme court decisions meant that they could'nt ban a class of weapons or attachments commonly used legally by Americans.They may get the background checks through congress.Write or contact your representatives.Thats the best way to fight this.

76shuvlinoff
February 2, 2013, 05:12 PM
Fight at the ballot box and sometimes you have to vote with your feet. When that fails I guess the question is would you fire on representatives of the US government?

Would you return fire?

meanmrmustard
February 2, 2013, 05:13 PM
Fight at the ballot box and sometimes you have to vote with your feet. When that fails I guess the question is would you fire on representatives of the US government?

Would you return fire?
Yes. As much as I don't want to, yes. Not for guns, but for my children's freedom.

Sam1911
February 2, 2013, 05:17 PM
I don't think it is worthwhile to even ask. Obviously under some conditions most of us would. Under other conditions, none of us would. None of us (except true psychopaths!) can do more but idly speculate.

But the question remains -- if you think you would shoot, and die, will you give the days of your life you're living right now to fight the winnable fight before us today? How much will you sacrifice NOW so you and others don't have to decide whether to die or submit someday?

It is a whole lot easier to promise to die in a hail of bullets someday than to sell your ARs for luscious panic prices and give the money to SAF or NRA-ILA today. Or to take off work and go sit in your legislators' offices day after day. Or to spend your nights and weekends volunteering for your state associations or the national ones. Etc.

If you aren't doing ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING you could possibly do (to the very point of pain and sacrifice) to fight this fight now, don't come here and claim you'd die for RKBA "someday."

btg3
February 2, 2013, 05:29 PM
I'd say the best advice would be to hide any affected weapons.
Seems very few, if any, are currently willing to hide, rather than register, NFA items. Good advice, you say?

meanmrmustard
February 2, 2013, 05:30 PM
I can't take off: gotta work to pay the bills.

I'm not selling my guns, what will I fight with?

I'm an NRA member, avid shooter, and an advocate and voice at any time I can to spread "our" word. I'm doing what I can, not what I'd like.

Yet, I say again, I'd die for freedom, not guns. For my kids.

zxcvbob
February 2, 2013, 05:40 PM
Fight at the ballot box and sometimes you have to vote with your feet. When that fails I guess the question is would you fire on representatives of the US government?

Would you return fire?

Yes, without hesitation if they are shooting at me. I would not fire first except in very extreme circumstances.

I shared an office with a guy who fought in Vietnam. He said when he first got there he didn't know if he'd be able to shoot at another person; said it turned out to be real easy when they were shooting at him.

I just sent emails to my MN representative and senator a few minutes ago to try to help prevent that. Not sure if it'll do any good to write the governor, but that's next on my list. I've already made a pest of myself writing my US senators and rep.

btg3
February 2, 2013, 06:48 PM
Not for guns, but for my children's freedom.
^^^This.

Leanwolf
February 2, 2013, 06:57 PM
JIMBO 555- "For me it's not tyranny if it's a law passed by congress. An executive order is something different. "

Should such laws be passed, and one day John Doe stands out on his front lawn and guns down a cop or two, or a couple of "blue helmets," or a Marine or two before he is made to look like a piece of bloody tripe, the politicians who passed the law will be sitting back in D.C. all nice and cozy, laughing their heads off about it, while swilling champagne and eating pate de fois gras and vichyssoise, at the taxpayers' expense.

L.W.

larryh1108
February 2, 2013, 07:01 PM
Do you want to see a mass revolt of the people? One that rocks the nation?

Pass laws that outlaw all cell phones, Blackberries, iPads, Twitter, Facebook and every other electronic media and device out there and say it a way to allow people to share national secrets and to plan terrorsit actions. Then tax using the internet $100 a month per user because of our national debt from fighting terrorism.

Do you think Americans would bend over and accept that? One right is just as important as the others but the antis need to see how it can be twisted to favor political agendas. Take away our guns but don't take away our electronic media! Yeah, right. Hit them where it hurts and see how they revolt. We can label them assault media and call those dependant on them Twitter Nuts or electronic radicals.

meanmrmustard
February 2, 2013, 07:03 PM
Should such laws be passed, and one day John Doe stands out on his front lawn and guns down a cop or two, or a couple of "blue helmets," or a Marine or two before he is made to look like a piece of bloody tripe, the politicians who passed the law will be sitting back in D.C. all nice and cozy, laughing their heads off about it, while swilling champagne and eating pate de fois gras and vichyssoise, at the taxpayers' expense.

L.W.
What's your point?

Odds are it won't be an isolated incident.

So, start that champagne fountain, or start readying your statements for the fire fights between government and/or military and law abiding, tax paying citizens.

BHP FAN
February 2, 2013, 07:11 PM
Sam's right ... we need to fight now, at the ballot box so we won't have to fight later, using the bullet box. Join the NRA. If each and every shooter did, there would be no questions about our gun rights. If you shoot, join. If you don't ... I really don't think you should complain.

Sam1911
February 2, 2013, 07:26 PM
[Mod Talk: Guns, shooting, RKBA, self defense, social security, hunting, non-firearm weapons]

thorazine
February 2, 2013, 07:34 PM
So if SHTF and if we are fighting amongst each other... north korea or china decides to take advantage of the ensuing chaos and invade muahaha!! :D

clutch
February 2, 2013, 07:39 PM
The majority of my years are behind me, the ones ahead are uncertain, I'd rather die a free man.

As pointed out, one won't know until we get there and I hope we don't.

Clutch

tomrkba
February 2, 2013, 07:40 PM
The time to fight is NOW. Give up a day at work and go see your representatives. Write, call, fax, email constantly. Organize your friends, family, and neighbors. All that stuff is a pain, sure, but it is a whole lot less of a pain than fighting later...

I agree with this.

It is already too late if there is a SWAT team at your door. The best you can hope for is to be arrested without anyone in the house being shot. You may get a round or two off, but don't count on it. They train daily for this sort of thing and you have to do actual work everyday.

Steel Horse Rider
February 2, 2013, 07:43 PM
I went to a town hall meeting with two State Representatives and a State Senator at ten o'clock this morning. They are all Republicans and good God fearing people, but here in Colorado the Democrats have control of both houses and the governorship so there is little they can do. For those of you who have been sleeping Colorado legalized pot last election and now the legislature is wresting with how to implement the "voters wishes" because it is still illegal at the federal level to grow and consume pot. We were told at the meeting that the majority party has been assured by those at the federal level that there will be no prosecutions. I asked if that precedent can be used as a basis to override any federal gun laws that come down the pike in the future. They didn't think the feds would look at it that way. i was told after the meeting that many of the Democrat members of the legislature did not like any of the proposed restrictions of gun ownership that are currently being discussed but that they would be unlikely to go public with their opposition. I would hope that those of this group who profess to be Democrats would use that as a tool to pressure those of their party who are afraid to buck the progressive leadership of their party to actually stand up for the principles of 1776.

Tom: Don't think too highly of the ability of those sent to disarm you . I have two nephews in Special Forces who have plenty of respect for an individual who believes he is right and is willing to give his life for it. What is life worth if you are willing to barter your liberty for existence. If those before you believed that you would probably be living in a government owned dormitory and working at a government designated job.

sgtstryker
February 2, 2013, 07:51 PM
I get your point, Sam. Now is when all law abiding gun owners should be, daily, contacting the elected officials in their state and federal posts. The only thing they fear is not being re-elected. Period. Let them know you are paying attention to what is going on and that you do vote. And, we all have a right to an opinion as to how we would handle a confiscation scenario, but, I truly believe that the personal decision on how we act at that moment can't be made until it arrives.

jmorris
February 2, 2013, 07:52 PM
No lots of people walked into "showers" after being removed from their houses. And loaded onto train cars like cattle. Some stood up and died along the way.

EBK
February 2, 2013, 08:05 PM
People are not clearing shelves of all gun stores to turn the stuff in.

I promise you that.

mugsie
February 2, 2013, 08:36 PM
I read the initial post and it so inflamed me that without reading the rest I had to post. History has a way of repeating itself. All nations that started off by registering guns ultimately ended up with dictators and enslaving their people. I know you've heard it all already.

In WWII, 13 Jews in the Warsaw ghetto held off the Germans for over a month. If all Jews would have resisted, and they didn't because they didn't know what was happening or believed their government, the Germans would have never risen to the power they did. It would have been impossible to maintain a war on several fronts and fight the resistance inside at every turn.

The other day I watched videos of the national guard during Katrina arresting homeowners and confiscating their weapons, leaving their property completely defenseless. The confiscating was subsequently deemed illegal, yet they did it. One NGO member even told the reported "it will be tough shooting fellow Americans but I'll do it if they won't give up their guns".

I believe in what our founders established. I believe they were right to fear the government. They knew an armed populace spells freedom. I served in Vietnam Nam, I was in hand to hand when my A-site was overrun. I for one would stand with those 13 Jews and resist a government trying to destroy our constitution and take away our freedoms. Yes, I may lose everything, including my life, but I would be prepared to fight for what I believe in and for what is right.

huntsman
February 2, 2013, 08:52 PM
you will probably be killed over food, water, a way to heat your home, or another individual wanting your weapons. Long before a "tyranny" is imposed, there will be mass chaos and our way of life in America as we know it now will be a distant memory.

^THIS

nobody going to take them flashy black-rifles and cases of ammo instead they'll willfully be handed over for scraps of food when the babies start crying.

Everybody is a patriot everybody fancies themselves Alvin York or Addie Murphy in battle but those men were more than warriors they were tough mountain men and substance farmers, when the battle is for food and the weapon is hunger how equipped are you?

We've lost 2nd amend freedoms but what bothers me more is how many are so willing to sit back and let .gov take care of them and control their lives, it's really no wonder we're at this place now.

76shuvlinoff
February 2, 2013, 09:27 PM
nobody going to take them flashy black-rifles and cases of ammo instead they'll willfully be handed over for scraps of food when the babies start crying.

Guess I'll eat the horses.

meanmrmustard
February 2, 2013, 09:30 PM
Guess I'll eat the horses.
Here, here. Greasy horse tastes much sweeter than bitter defeat.

BHP FAN
February 2, 2013, 09:53 PM
I don't have any horses. I have three cats...but I'm really fond of two of them.

Arkansas Paul
February 2, 2013, 10:00 PM
What do you treasure more? Possessing guns, or being an American?

Loaded question.
I treasure being an American very much, but the reason I do so is not out of some unfounded loyalty that I have just because I was born here. I treasure it because of the freedoms that we have (for now) that most countries do not. That's what sets us apart. Take the liberties away, and America is just one among hundreds.

"Where liberty is, there is my country" - Ben Franklin

LS240
February 2, 2013, 10:54 PM
I personally feel the time to "fight back" is when or if the government starts confiscations, because after that would be too late to fight back. I mean, it's kinda hard to fight tyranny without arms right? I don't ever want to face a situation where I have federal employees standing at my door asking to be let in so they can search my home and seize my legally-purchased property. I really don't want to be forced to make that decision to submit or make a stand. But if that moment comes, I hope I have the courage to do the right thing and tell them to stuff it, regardless of the consequences.

Please don't mistake this for false bravado, as I don't have a hero complex or desire to take any life or have mine taken. However, many good people fought and died to guarantee the rights I hold dear almost 240 years ago and many more have died since while defending those same rights. Therefore I feel I have a moral imperative to make a sacrifice if necessary so those previous sacrifices weren't made in vain. I feel that allowing the government to take property from its citizens, especially with the express intent to remove the people's ability to fight back(what other reason is there to disarm citizens?), would be allowing them to go too far.

I suppose my willingness to make a stand may change after I have kids, and I certainly understand if that's the case for anyone who doesn't want to fight. But right now I have no kids and no obligation to stay around for that reason.

Sam1911
February 2, 2013, 10:56 PM
I personally feel the time to "fight back" is when or if the government starts confiscations, because after that would be too late to fight back.I think the point some of us are making is that the time to fight and WIN is NOW. When the government finally starts overt confiscations it will be FAR too late to fight back.

Leanwolf
February 2, 2013, 11:17 PM
Originally Posted by Leanwolf
Should such laws be passed, and one day John Doe stands out on his front lawn and guns down a cop or two, or a couple of "blue helmets," or a Marine or two before he is made to look like a piece of bloody tripe, the politicians who passed the law will be sitting back in D.C. all nice and cozy, laughing their heads off about it, while swilling champagne and eating pate de fois gras and vichyssoise, at the taxpayers' expense.

L.W.

MEANMRMUSTARD - "What's your point?
Odds are it won't be an isolated incident."

MeanMrMustard, I'm surprised you didn't understand my post.

What it means, or "the point," is that the politicians who passed the laws to ban and confiscate, will be the politicians who order the cops or "blue helmets," or whomever to come confiscate the firearms of the "worker peasants." Whether or not there are many resisters, rather than the one "John Doe" I mentioned, will not matter one whit to them.

The politicians will not give one big fat rat's behind how many of the citizens are killed, nor will they care how many of their own Enforcers are killed. There will be plenty more Enforcers where they came from.

The politicians will be fat and happy and enjoying themselves laughing and swilling at the taxpayers' trough.

L.W.

LS240
February 2, 2013, 11:17 PM
I think the point some of us are making is that the time to fight and WIN is NOW. When the government finally starts overt confiscations it will be FAR too late to fight back.
You are absolutely correct. It's always better to resolve an issue non-violently and before it actually becomes an issue. I should clarify that I mean the time for violent action would be at the point of confiscation. By definition that would only happen if non-violent means have failed. I would obviously much rather prevent it from getting to that point at all.

BHP FAN
February 2, 2013, 11:56 PM
as would we all. I'm not Rambo.

Steel Horse Rider
February 3, 2013, 12:02 AM
Rambo apparently doesn't believe in an armed citizenry. Be glad you are not Rambo. That movie was one of the biggest disgraces to the Special Forces that was ever made.

fiddleharp
February 3, 2013, 02:49 AM
One impression I'm gathering from this thread is that almost all of its participants are white men over the age of 60. You might have been a kick-azz Marine in 1968, but now you're an old man who is letting his mouth make promises his body can't keep.
If you doubt that, just go outside and sprint like hell around the block. Move those feet like an Apache helicopter is right behind you with its miniguns ablazing. If you actually make it home under your own power, your wife will be rubbing you down with Ben Gay after she drives you home from the emergency room.
By the time the government finally gets around to gun confiscation, me and you will either be wormfood or drooling in a nursing home.
The government can afford to be patient. The day will soon arrive when the opinions, passions, and threats of old white men will mean absolutely nothing. One only has to observe the 180 the Republican Party has done on illegal immigration in order to court the "Hispanic Vote". They can read the handwriting on the wall, and are now acting upon what they've read.
A new people will soon be in charge. George W. Bush was America's last white male president.
Will these Mexican immigrants and their offspring cherish the words of the Founding Fathers and rant about The Constitution like we do?
I don't think they will. For better or worse, I believe this nation will soon be headed into a new direction, through uncharted waters.

xxjumbojimboxx
February 3, 2013, 03:50 AM
Im definitly in. I know this may sound a little be crazy seeing as I'm a young man.. But my world, my media, my influence, has numbed me to so many things. My point here is that the only thing that brings me true joy, and excitement (any real emotion) in my life is hunting down and acquiring, shooting, cleaning, trading, and selling firearms. Sure I've got a girlfriend, and good friends and whatnot... But my true passion is firearms. If someone were to march up to my door and say that theyll be taking them. Well, you can refer to my signature for the conclusion of tha train of thought.

BLB68
February 3, 2013, 04:13 AM
One impression I'm gathering from this thread is that almost all of its participants are white men over the age of 60. You might have been a kick-azz Marine in 1968, but now you're an old man who is letting his mouth make promises his body can't keep.

My father's 71. He'd make you eat those words after he pinched your head off*. He's worked hard all of his life, and continues to work hard in his retirement, and continues to be stronger than an ox. He's in better cardio shape than men less than half his age.

Don't underestimate old guys.






*Not really. Fortunately, he's mellowed out in his old age. :D

CheckFire
February 3, 2013, 04:28 AM
"Whaaa...call the amber lamps!..."

THAT old white man was 67, he handled himself well iirc.

David White
February 3, 2013, 04:30 AM
Oh, sure. Plan accordingly, though? What does that mean? Stop going to work? Stop living life so you can sit at home and wait for the end to come?

And if these things start, these guys aren't going to be held up as heroes who died for a cause, they're going to be "crackpots" sitting in jail. The "scary loner with an arsenal and dangerous munitions stockpiled for the apocalypse ..." or however the press will say it.

Look, I'm not in any way saying to lay down your arms or turn them in. I'm saying it's a dead-end road. If we have to turn that way, well ... we simply must fight hard enough NOW not to ever have to turn that way.

If you've spent any time contemplating and preparing yourself for a B-O-G end, spend 10x that much effort going to visit your representatives and Senators, writing, emailing, calling, donating, organizing, taking people shooting, etc., etc.

The fight is NOW. Not in a pile of spent brass when "they" come for you. If you think you're ready to face the "end game" FIGHT like it's END GAME NOW. If you believe you can commit everything THEN? Commit everything NOW.

You keep saying to "write, call and email" do that we don't have to fight.
Sounds to me that you are afraid for you! That if it comes to blazing away and going to war, you don't want any part of it.
You know what? You can surrender your arms now so that you can sit this out. No big deal. There will be plenty of able bodies to take up the slack!
My wife already knows that I will take it as far as it goes. She doesn't like it but I explained it to her so she can be ready.
I will not submit. I will not roll over. I will "cowboy the <deleted> up and do my duty, for God and country.

David White
February 3, 2013, 04:42 AM
Im pretty sure the 2nd isn't in there to kill people Sam. We are just basically beating our chest here. We are discussing a unlikely hypothetical, and I normally don't do such. Im done.

Actually, I'm pretty damn sure that the 2A is in there for just that purpose. How do you defend against a tyrannical government that has stolen your rights?
Water balloon fights? Rock , paper, scissors?
There will be loss of life if they keep taking our rights. Question is.... Which side do you want to be on?

larryh1108
February 3, 2013, 08:20 AM
One impression I'm gathering from this thread is that almost all of its participants are white men over the age of 60. You might have been a kick-azz Marine in 1968, but now you're an old man who is letting his mouth make promises his body can't keep.
If you doubt that, just go outside and sprint like hell around the block. Move those feet like an Apache helicopter is right behind you with its miniguns ablazing. If you actually make it home under your own power, your wife will be rubbing you down with Ben Gay after she drives you home from the emergency room.

This is one of the most disrespectful statements I've read on these boards. You can write this because tens of thousands of old men died protecting your right to write them. In 40 years, you will be the old man who needs a cane and you know what? This ststement will probably be the best thing you contributed to society. Sad. Now, go back to your video games.

fiddleharp
February 3, 2013, 08:41 AM
Actually Larry, if you go back and read my post #43, you'll see a letter mentioned between me and my mother in 1969. She was in Florida, and I was in Vietnam.
I am one of those old men.
By the way, is wasn't the "old men" who died protecting my freedom.
It was the young ones.

larryh1108
February 3, 2013, 08:58 AM
The funny thing is post #43 was one of the best posts of this thread. When I read that I realized you were right. They can and will do anything they think is "right".

Then you wrote the post I mentioned. Why? You are the man you referred to. Does this mean you can't fight any more or you won't? Are you too old for it to matter? These conflicting posts make no sense to me.

And, BTW, the young men who died or wounded would be and are the old men today you referred to. They are still the same service men and women who faced those bullets. Time may have made their body old and tired but they are still the same people whether 18 or 68. Don't forget the career officers and leaders who are "old men". They still bleed on the battle fields.

Bianchi?
February 3, 2013, 09:01 AM
One impression I'm gathering from this thread is that almost all of its participants are white men over the age of 60. You might have been a kick-azz Marine in 1968, but now you're an old man who is letting his mouth make promises his body can't keep.
If you doubt that, just go outside and sprint like hell around the block. Move those feet like an Apache helicopter is right behind you with its miniguns ablazing. If you actually make it home under your own power, your wife will be rubbing you down with Ben Gay after she drives you home from the emergency room.
By the time the government finally gets around to gun confiscation, me and you will either be wormfood or drooling in a nursing home.
The government can afford to be patient. The day will soon arrive when the opinions, passions, and threats of old white men will mean absolutely nothing. One only has to observe the 180 the Republican Party has done on illegal immigration in order to court the "Hispanic Vote". They can read the handwriting on the wall, and are now acting upon what they've read.
A new people will soon be in charge. George W. Bush was America's last white male president.
Will these Mexican immigrants and their offspring cherish the words of the Founding Fathers and rant about The Constitution like we do?
I don't think they will. For better or worse, I believe this nation will soon be headed into a new direction, through uncharted waters.

A sprint around the block? No problem. You'll just have to give me 20 minutes because my block is 3 miles around. I recently ran a VERY hilly half marathon in 1:47. It's not that fast (~8minute mile), but i can do it.
Also, no wife, and I'm 22. But it's nice to see that you think the firearm community is made up of exclusively aging geezers.

Lex Luthier
February 3, 2013, 09:10 AM
@fiddleharp: Easy now friend. While the stereotype may very well be more "experienced" men in their sixties, I am 47, and guarantee you that us "younger" men will hold the fort.

soonerfan85
February 3, 2013, 09:33 AM
"Sorry officer, I traded that gun and a couple of others last year for those two six shooters"

Resist Evil
February 3, 2013, 12:45 PM
If law enforcement agents of some kind demand that I surrender my firearms, the Eeyore in me will counsel abject compliance with "no sense in fighting it, my wife will be devastated if I do, I can't win anyway, my death will change nothing, liberals always win, they are Borg and resistance is futile" and so on. On the other hand, the Liberty-loving American in me might counter with something like "it's better to fight for something than to exist for nothing." I don't genuinely know what I'd do in that circumstance.

As a thirty-year-plus member of a largely incompetent leftist employment organization, I have never been able to persuade a single fellow member to consider the truth of the Right to keep and bear arms. As a matter of fact, no matter how I tried to express, respectfully and earnestly, how normal and reasonable it is to be interested in Liberty and firearms, I have lost employment because some of those above me were in fear that as a gun owner I might "go postal" at the slightest provocation. As a 2A spokesmodel and evangelist, I am a failure, so I don't do that anymore.

I do belong to the NRA, I just recently donated to NRA-ILA, and it's likely that I'll be joining the Second Amendment Foundation real soon.

After politely writing to my political "representatives" at both the state and federal levels of largely incompetent leftist government, I received polite form letters in reply telling me how much they appreciate hearing from their constituents and how they will balance public safety against the Second Amendment when considering which new infringements they're going to support. My political "representatives" are all liberals and I don't have enough money to get their attention really, so I content myself with the thought I'm at least trying to slow their mad rush to pervert American Liberty by my puny skills at letter writing.

I know I'm not much of a rifle marksman and my Bushmaster AR stops working after a shot or two anyway, so I'm joining, donating, and writing letters now because if later, liberals succeed in passing confiscatory laws, I'll probably be up that famous creek if the real shooting starts. I won't be without a paddle though. At least the AR will be good for something! :)

David White
February 3, 2013, 02:34 PM
This IS SPARTA!!!

Seriously, I'll either fight and come back with my S&W Shield, or on it.

I love it! Absolutely Brilliant!

Sam1911
February 3, 2013, 06:30 PM
You keep saying to "write, call and email" do that we don't have to fight.
Sounds to me that you are afraid for you! That if it comes to blazing away and going to war, you don't want any part of it.You're danged sure RIGHT! I NEVER want to see a war, certainly not here on our beloved home soil against our own brother Americans. What kind of psychotic reject would say he DID want some part of that? Could I, would I? I can't say and you can't either. I'm going to work my LIFE away in the fight to never have to find out.

That's why I make the call I do. Don't come here and preach how tough you'll be SOMEDAY if there's one OUNCE more you could do now to stave off the day when arms might be the only choice left. If you can't sacrifice your LIVING life now to fight the battle we can WIN, you're lying to yourself and everyone else if you say you'll KILL and DIE for it "someday."

You know what? You can surrender your arms now so that you can sit this out. No big deal. There will be plenty of able bodies to take up the slack!Oooookay. Yup. Sure. That's exactly what you should take away from my call to ACT now.

My wife already knows that I will take it as far as it goes. She doesn't like it but I explained it to her so she can be ready.You have a very patient wife who must have a WOLRD-CLASS sense of humor. ;)

fiddleharp
February 3, 2013, 06:54 PM
Larry, thanks for the kind words about post #43. That incident was one of earliest "awakenings" that have taken place at various stages of my life.
The lesson I learned back then is that there is a huge difference in what working and middle-class white Americans say they will do, and what they will actually do, once they are fed-up and "won't take it anymore".
If the outrage of forced busing didn't spark a bloody revolt lasting for decades (like Northern Ireland's "Troubles"), then, I concluded way back then, nothing would. So far, I've been right. :(
As far as my razzing of chest-thumping old men, I've got to tell you I've had decades of experience with such characters. You see, I grew up in St. Petersburg, Florida in the 1950's and 60's. Then, as now, Florida was a mecca for retirees. Starting when I was a kid and up till the present day, I've personally witnessed the occasional confrontation between "grumpy old men" that has escalated into an attempt at fisticuffs, usually over a parking space or something.
When it happens, it's pure comedy!
First, no effective punch is ever landed. Flying eyeglasses are the norm. They can't even get each other into a headlock, standard procedure for bringing barroom brawls among younger guys to a standstill.
What they actually accomplish is injure themselves worse than their opponent, with thrown-out backs and such.
Now, in my case, God has chosen to bless me with decent health for a guy my age. I jog 3.7 miles almost every morning before breakfast. By "jog", I mean run for a while and walk for a while. I'm no triathlete.
I also pump iron, when the mood strikes me, on my home gym.
That being said, I still won't let my mouth make promises my body can't keep. However, I will say this.
If some sort of armed Balkan-type conflict erupts in my neighborhood between racial or ethnic groups, I'd make a devilish sniper, because I'm now ten times the rifle shot I was when I was a young man. Back then, I was skinny and nervous. I had a problem with recoil from powerful rifles.
Over the decades I've overcome my flinch and have acquired, practiced, and hunted with some powerful tackdrivers.
However, if government swat teams or high-tech "blue helmets" arrived to collect our guns, us old snipers might inflict a casualty or two before we were wiped out.
Once the last oldtimer died, would a younger person take his place?
I think not. They grew up used to excessive government intrusion into their everyday lives.
If young people won't lay down their lives, why should I?
And I'm just talking about native-born white American youth.
Once we become an Hispanic-Majority "democracy", with traditional Western European/Historic American values forever marginalized by the political power of these new people, God only knows what new banana republic surprises will await our offspring.

Fred Fuller
February 3, 2013, 07:01 PM
That if it comes to blazing away and going to war, you don't want any part of it.

No one with two brain cells WOULD want war, and civil war at that, in their own country, around their own homes.

I'm not a veteran. I did a couple of years of ROTC in college, way back when, and played guerrilla war games in the woods of NC a couple of times while I worked at Ft. Bragg. But that's been enough for me.

I'd rather win a war of words, than fight a war of bullets. Let's take care of where we are, before we start fighting in the future, OK?

TAKtical
February 3, 2013, 07:10 PM
This election was a lose lose scenario. To those who have mentioned that we elected the wrong person, do you really think that Romneytron wouldnt have tried to enforce a ban? We had no pro 2a option this time. I dont care if Romney went and bought an NRA membership right before the election. That guy flip flopped on so many different topics I couldnt believe a word he said. Lets make sure that next time we have a strong pro 2a candidate so that this doesnt happen again. I think we can win this fight and I also feel that if we do win, it will be much harder for anyone to attack our 2a rights in the future.

taliv
February 3, 2013, 08:18 PM
I agree that NOW is the time to fight but really that is just a deflection. An easy "answer" that in no way addresses the question. And also assumes we aren't fighting when clearly someone is calling and writing reps.

And worse, I find detestable the comments about how ineffective we would be fighting back.

Let me be clear. If you believe we the people cannot win our freedom with our rifles from an oppressive government then what the hell are you doing here? What is the point of having rifles? What is the point of the 2a and why would you say we need to defend it now?

Hypocrisy.

You can project your own fears onto the rest of us and stereotype internet commandos if you must. It would not be the first time the people have spat on the ones defending their rights.

Perhaps many individuals will not have the courage to fight if it came to that but history shows that many will and further that revolutions are effected by a tiny fraction of the populace while the majority are just part of the scenery.

I suspect our own fight would look much like the insurgency in Afghanistan and Iraq. Facing the impossible odds against our military and technology, many men and women in those countries still fight to defend their home and religion. The brave ones don't live long. But eventually we will quit that field and declare victory (again) which everyone knows is nothing of the sort. We would win our fight too and it may take 10 years or more.

Will you call a man foolish or say he has bad tactics when he gives his life to inflict one of the thousand cuts? Sure you do. Now.

This abyssmal line of thinking also ignores the reality of effective insurgencies. For every "fighter" it takes many supporting sympathizers. They were critical in our own revolution as well as the current ME conflict. And history has plenty more examples of defying oppressive governments from the people who hid Jews in Germany to the underground railroad. There will be ample opportunity for bravery that doesn't involve your cold dead hands.

gdcpony
February 3, 2013, 09:00 PM
"Only a battle lost is sadder than a battle won"
Robert Jordan

That guy's books while fantasy speak many truths that we should think about.

I have been to war. I have never fired a shot, but I saw the results of both sides shooting and dieing for what they believed- yes the other side actually believes they are right. I can tell you that our CO cried after leaving the COC once we secured an area. We had won, but men had died. It is painful and horrible no matter who wins, you simply pray you do so that you can say it was worth it.

No let's take that and put it in our own back yards. No thanks. I have yet to be convinced that they will come for my guns armed. That is where I would change my opinion. Then I may employ some creative tactics and pray that some father, mother, brother, etc. forgives me. I will then pray my wife and kids forgive me for sending them to safety.

However, for now I write my reps, I voice my opinion, I vote, and convince others to do the same. That is how I choose to fight right now. My ammo is my wits, facts, and supporting groups. My weapon is a keyboard, pen, and phone. My battlefield is the enemy's sites, their group boards, and anywhere I carry legally open in public. The casualties are being banned, yelled at, and cursed at. I can live with that fight.

Most likely I will quietly resist, hide my weapons if needed, and know that someday my kids might make things right. Sam 1911 is most likely right in how they will seize them if they try. Most likely though they won't. I think they will stop the supply of new sales and parts and wait for hold outs like me to wear out, break, or give in reducing gun numbers that way. It is a long term plan, which could work in our favor someday.

Walkalong
February 3, 2013, 09:07 PM
Civil war would be the absolute worst way possible to right the ship. The good thing is we are not even close to it at this point.

Soldiers pray for peace. Hot heads call for war.

gdcpony
February 3, 2013, 09:20 PM
I agree that NOW is the time to fight but really that is just a deflection. An easy "answer" that in no way addresses the question. And also assumes we aren't fighting when clearly someone is calling and writing reps.

And worse, I find detestable the comments about how ineffective we would be fighting back.

Let me be clear. If you believe we the people cannot win our freedom with our rifles from an oppressive government then what the hell are you doing here? What is the point of having rifles? What is the point of the 2a and why would you say we need to defend it now?

Hypocrisy.

You can project your own fears onto the rest of us and stereotype internet commandos if you must. It would not be the first time the people have spat on the ones defending their rights.

Perhaps many individuals will not have the courage to fight if it came to that but history shows that many will and further that revolutions are effected by a tiny fraction of the populace while the majority are just part of the scenery.

I suspect our own fight would look much like the insurgency in Afghanistan and Iraq. Facing the impossible odds against our military and technology, many men and women in those countries still fight to defend their home and religion. The brave ones don't live long. But eventually we will quit that field and declare victory (again) which everyone knows is nothing of the sort. We would win our fight too and it may take 10 years or more.

Will you call a man foolish or say he has bad tactics when he gives his life to inflict one of the thousand cuts? Sure you do. Now.

This abysmal line of thinking also ignores the reality of effective insurgencies. For every "fighter" it takes many supporting sympathizers. They were critical in our own revolution as well as the current ME conflict. And history has plenty more examples of defying oppressive governments from the people who hid Jews in Germany to the underground railroad. There will be ample opportunity for bravery that doesn't involve your cold dead hands.

"Steel bends, but remains strong. Stone shatters and is worn down by the wind... We must be made into steel and not stone"
Also Robert Jordan

I have no doubt that an organized resistance by even 5% of gun owners could have a devastating effect on our military. I did a study on it 10yrs ago. Not only that but the fracturing of the military by said resistance would probably topple the government before it is said and done. It would all depend on tactical and strategic approaches and where the 5% actually struck and when. If it was spread out then it fails. If it is too concentrated it fails. If large enough numbers strike numerous correct targets at the right times, then I will have the distinct displeasure of watching chaos unfold in my country in my lifetime.

Do not think those unwilling to make that stand right now are spineless. Will you take care of their families? Will you be their leader so they are not disarmed while their body cools in the night after a failed attempt to resist on their own? It is a different thing to those who can think it through to toss everything to the wind and say "I will not bend."

I may be that "internet commando" who will be the big story on the news. But first they would have to pass the law, move into my area to enforce it, and endanger my family, or another innocent person while doing so. That would be my "breaking point."

You speak of IED's in our streets killing innocents, suicide bombers, and attacks funded by illegal drugs when you mention the fighting over seas. I don't know that I could carry out any of that or condone it. Sorry. It may be one of those "thousand cuts," but I would rather fight in capitols and courts if it is possible.

Sorry, but while your post was probably accurate about the possibility of our armed "victory," it implied allot of things that Americans should be above no matter how bad things get. Call it my pride.

gdcpony
February 3, 2013, 09:37 PM
One impression I'm gathering from this thread is that almost all of its participants are white men over the age of 60. You might have been a kick-azz Marine in 1968, but now you're an old man who is letting his mouth make promises his body can't keep.
If you doubt that, just go outside and sprint like hell around the block. Move those feet like an Apache helicopter is right behind you with its miniguns ablazing. If you actually make it home under your own power, your wife will be rubbing you down with Ben Gay after she drives you home from the emergency room.
By the time the government finally gets around to gun confiscation, me and you will either be wormfood or drooling in a nursing home.
The government can afford to be patient. The day will soon arrive when the opinions, passions, and threats of old white men will mean absolutely nothing. One only has to observe the 180 the Republican Party has done on illegal immigration in order to court the "Hispanic Vote". They can read the handwriting on the wall, and are now acting upon what they've read.
A new people will soon be in charge. George W. Bush was America's last white male president.
Will these Mexican immigrants and their offspring cherish the words of the Founding Fathers and rant about The Constitution like we do?
I don't think they will. For better or worse, I believe this nation will soon be headed into a new direction, through uncharted waters.
I am not that old, but I am a "kick azz Marine." My daughter is too. You think she who is not a "white male" doesn't value the Constitution? Read her essay here: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=696101&page=3 Scroll down and you'll see what I mean. I can run the block, and shoot after and have done similar while hunting, and for training in gear no less (treestands while hunting/ combat load while training).

Will America change? Yep, but it is up to all of us to make it change the way WE want. Keep that in mind. Those "Mexican immigrants" can learn to shoot, and to treasure the freedoms more than the handouts. You tried to talk to one lately? Oh wait, you probably only speak one language. Sorry.

hueyville
February 3, 2013, 09:41 PM
The future of our country is our children, the future of our churches are our children, the future of the second amendment is our children. So unless we raise a generation that in turn. raises a generation that continues to enjoy shooting sports, the right to keep and bear arms will fade away in two generations due to being unfamiliar with firearms. My wife and I chose not to raise kids in this messed up world. When we pass, we leave no descendants to fend for themselves. I teach small bore rifle to boy scouts pushing 25 years now. In the beginning most kids had shot many times, had their own rifle and got their badge first trip to the range. Now, 80% have never held a rifle, 20% are not allowed to.participate in the event by parent(s). So come fight me for my guns? Nope, they may put me in a position where if I turn in all my high cap mags I will stay out of jail. Hard decision. Next generation will allow the black rifles to go away for the public good. Generation after will let the handguns go for safety of society. By then, all that are left are legitimate hunting and target rifles. Second Amendment will still stand and if we want to revolt against predator drones and other non manned military equipment of the future combined with 30 more years of Alphabet Agencies collecting info.on those of risk, there will be a 72 hour blip on the news about removal of rouge militia groups and its done. Only way to stop it is raise up a generation with backbone instead of fat kids who like to play video games instead of killing squirrels. Me, I split my stuff so no individual sunrise raid cleans me out. Wife and I both have same or better equipment issued to our current troops. Upstairs of my house including windows and doors built to NIJ level 2 specs and bottom floor is NIJ level 3a windows and doors, walls are NIJ level 4+. We have Gen 2+ & 3 vision devices along with thermal imaging. Thus, they will let me die of old age along with ones like me. The government has time to bide their time. We are just a few years from peaceful surrender of Dad and Granddads stuff. Only way to stop it is to take your kids out of the government schools where they are being socialized a little more every day.

Sambo82
February 3, 2013, 09:58 PM
You know, alot of people still wonder how those Saudi's could actually force themselves to fly their planes into the WTC and Pentagon on 9/11. Those same people might wonder how suicide bombers can blow themselves up for a cause, or how generations of human beings have stood and fought on various battlefields across the globe, and let themselves be killed for a cause.

Almost universally, for better or worse, that drive has been the force of religious belief. The real, absolute belief that after this life, is a better one, can make a man (or woman) stare down an enemy even when the odds are hopeless. It by its nature voids arguments such as "but you will die" or "you can't win".

I have such a belief, and I find it no small coincidence that so many fellow Constitutionalists and liberty minded individuals I meet seem to have a similar belief. Maybe that's why modern totalitarian regimes generally seem to fear and loath religion.

So I honestly mean no false bravado when I say that I believe I would give my life for my liberties and the liberties of my children. I don't think I'm Rambo, and I'm perfectly open to the reality that most likely in such an event I'd be killed before ever having the chance to take my weapon off of safe. But my religious belief accounts for that, and teaches me that sometimes a losing fight is worth it based off of principal alone.

joecil
February 3, 2013, 10:51 PM
I one of those that has seen it up close and personal so been there and done that type. If they showed up at my door wanting my guns no problem, take them. No point in dieing for a gun when another is easy to come by really if you think about it. If the only ones with guns are those in control it really isn't that difficult to take one out if the real need for a gun arises. Now with that said I don't think anyone will show up demanding my gun nor do I see having to take out someone in authority to get a gun. When it gets to that point it is over and we have much more pressing matters than a gun.

taliv
February 3, 2013, 11:13 PM
Civil war would be the absolute worst way possible to right the ship. The good thing is we are not even close to it at this point.

Soldiers pray for peace. Hot heads call for war

Totally agree. And it's because we've been fighting now that we probably won't even see a bill pass the senate much less the house. Hopefully it stays that way

Trent
February 3, 2013, 11:26 PM
I'd rather speak up with my voice, now, and loudly, than speak with my blood, later.

The thought of shooting at any of my fellow countrymen makes me sick to my stomach. As much as I despise the hard-core anti figureheads leading the charge against our rights, I'm not about to put metal to brain matter over it.

It'll take serious, indisputable cause of action before I'm motivated to start launching projectiles at human beings.

Believe me, there is a point where I won't hesitate to take up arms. But that point is very, very distant, and hopefully won't occur in my lifetime, or that of my children.

Until that point comes, I'll be a model citizen.

After that point? I'll still be a model citizen.

With a fascinating new hobby.

xxjumbojimboxx
February 4, 2013, 02:21 AM
Logic speaks to words over violence everyday. Unfortunatly this SAME type of situation has gone on in our country from DAY 1! Literally day 1 was spawned from the same dualistic attitude our country has had for all of this time. Some want it one way. Others want it others. Many dont care. The problem with this is that when you look at many of the issues that have led this country to where it is now. They've ended in war. Cruel, war. Banning guns, or requiring registration of guns makes some poeple nervous. While it makes others feel safe. For me I'd rather defend myself than rely on the establishment. And thats NO lie. But for others, who have been dependant on the establishment, they have full trust in their government because it may have been taking care of them for all their lives.

Interesting to see whos pushing for gun control vs whos not...

The point still exists. The government had no interest in protecting me. Whether it be a democratic or republican government, there is no interest. I am just a fly on the wall. And so are all of you. So when the SHTF, do you want to be a fly where the gov knows where to aim their swatters? Or that crafty squirrly fly, hiding, with a bazooka?

I know how all of us on this forum would answer that question... And I know how the gov would like you to answer that question as they simply wish to fulfill their own adgendas. My question, is why would anybody knowingly choose to be the more vulnerable fly?

One more point I'd like to make. I see a lot of folks talking about how if there was in fact an uprising, it would be immediatly squashed by our government... How i ask? are they going to drone strike their own soil? A war fought on american soil would be fought troop to troop. Anything other then infantry would cause serious collateral damage. And would certainly turn the anti's quickly if a bomb blew up their house.

r1derbike
February 4, 2013, 02:48 AM
By the time the endgame scenario is played-out in this country, it won't matter that old fools with nothing else to live for go out in a blaze of self-defined glory. At least to the old fools.

SFsc616171
February 4, 2013, 03:06 PM
Live Free or Die!
I've lived 60 years, fought Communism, and it makes me sick that some folks would even have to ask the, "Now, really, would you ...?" questions!

How has the OP defined the word, 'Freedom'? "Oh gee, d'ey's gonna come and git my thangs, look in my crib, see d'at ah ain't doin' nothin', and d'ey'd be nice, if d'ey don' beat me, too!"

PS, if that is insensitive, that is what is understood by the tone of the statement.

Is THAT what the &&*& I fought, and bled for? I don't think so!

Bovice
February 4, 2013, 03:13 PM
If it went down like most of us fear (outright bans or confiscations), what makes you think you have to stand and fight? You don't have to give up your comfortable life. You will have to keep a secret though. Think about it, most of us already keep secrets, so what's the problem?

They haven't attacked the 5th amendment yet. You don't have to admit to anything.

Guns? What guns? :)

Last Knight
February 4, 2013, 03:18 PM
"When they bust down your front door
How you gonna come
With your hands on your head
Or on the trigger of your gun
When they come for you
How you gonna go
Shot down on the pavement
Or waiting on death row..."

EchoZebra
February 4, 2013, 04:41 PM
When I was in my 20's my uncle and I used to sit outside and have a few beers on Friday nights. He told me in the end of times things will stop making sense. If you look hard at what is going on today you will see that this has come to pass. Obama getting elected once was a sign of it, him being re-elected has echoed it. Nothing is making sense.People are going through life like zombies. The majority has come to accept (even embrace) whatever these crooked politicians have in store for us. Lemmings to the cliff gents...lemmings to the cliff. It isn't just Obama either, it is all of these politicians that follow his lead.It looks as though people with common sense will have to stand as our forefathers did against tyranny. I hope and pray it doesn't come to that, but it may be a blessing in disguise. I just hope the Constitution survives as the basis of government for the victors.

Sam1911
February 4, 2013, 06:10 PM
I just hope the Constitution survives as the basis of government for the victors.Without taking us down the rabbit hole too far, I see no reason to believe that a government formed post some type of revolution would be something any of us would recognize or would give our sacred fortunes and lives for.

If the great men -- the Jeffersons, Washingtons, Adamses, etc. -- exist now to convene and usher in a new entity founded on the bedrock of personal liberty and constructed to be a sustainable government of the people, by the people, and for the people, where our own Constitution has failed...

WHERE ARE THEY NOW?

huntsman
February 4, 2013, 07:45 PM
the goal should be restoration as the system is fine it just needs moral people for it to function correctly.

pharmer
February 4, 2013, 07:58 PM
America is a very resilient place, because of its' people, not titular "leaders." We were mired in a sickening morass exactly 20 years ago with the Klinton Kool-aid Drinkers. Got an AWB and all. Shortly thereafter arose a GREAT revulsion and rejection of the "status quo." We are again ready for another "American Revulsion", Hopefully there aren't too many "hands out" whose allegiance is sworn to those who put the crumbs in their hands. I think 47% was the number bandied about. Joe

Sam1911
February 4, 2013, 08:26 PM
We were mired in a sickening morass exactly 20 years ago with the Klinton Kool-aid Drinkers. Got an AWB and all. Shortly thereafter arose a GREAT revulsion and rejection of the "status quo."If you're referring to the Republican rise in Congress and the "Contract with America" ... wow. I'm not going to be holding that up as any great model of success.

John F. Kennedy once addressed a gathering of Nobel laureates at the White House and said:
"I think this is the most extraordinary collection of talent, of human knowledge, that has ever been gathered at the White House - with the possible exception of when Thomas Jefferson dined alone." True, and even more astounding is that Jefferson was neither alone, nor the most prominent of the our Nation's better angels assembled at the Philadelphia Convention.

Advocating another American Revolution (uh, or "revulsion?") sounds great until you try to picture either the "leaders" of today, or -- god forbid -- the remaining battered and disheveled post-revolution American public at large trying to hammer out a model for a new government.

What we have may be broken, possibly beyond true rectification. But it is still a treasure that we cannot replace -- cannot even come close to replacing. The men and circumstances that were so miraculously present and able and cooperating in such unfathomable wisdom in 1787 are simply no longer in existence. We really cannot anticipate or even hope for a time when such scholars and thinkers will ever assemble with such purpose, and to such effect again.

There may be reason and directed purpose to armed civil disobedience. Good may come of it, and evil may be staved off. A new direction may indeed be found turns us back to the vision of the founders. But if that action results in the destruction of what now remains of our one true national treasure, liberty will die in our Pyrrhic victory.

EchoZebra
February 4, 2013, 08:28 PM
Nicely put Sam.

Huntsman and pharmer, you guys are both dead on. I feel the demographics have changed too drastically and at such a fast rate we have lost something....something that will not allow us to have restoration....will not allow for that "American Revulsion" that is needed.This worries me the most.
Let's be honest about it too...we have a generation that it at it's lowest education level that are coming of age right now.We are in a bad way on every possible level.No one will look back on these days as "the good old days".

larryh1108
February 4, 2013, 08:46 PM
The leaders who are trying to push this through are not dumb. They know we are a formidable force and they are, after all, elected to their positions.

Let's be hypothetical for a moment. If Congress passed an amendment to the Constitution that made all firearms illegal starting 1/1/2014, I believe there would be a huge revolt and some sort of civil war. There would be non-compliance and bloodshed.

If Congress passes a law that bans magazine capacity over 10 rounds, there would be a huge uproar and many politicians will lose jobs but it's not enough to bring us to a civil war. I'm sure there will be a few pockets of resistance but an outright rebellion would not be in our future.

My point is, outside of an outright ban of all firearms, we aren't going to war. Elected officials will be ousted and perhaps we can gain what we lost but we won't have many choices but to comply until the courts sort it out. Since no one has been successful in CA, MA and other areas where magazine restrictions have been in place for many years, I do not see any reversal unless a new Congress changes the new laws back.

I fear the same thing with an AWB. They'll take (as mentioned above) a piece of cake here and a piece of cake there and soon there will only be a piece left for us. It will be done over time, as in generations. As the hard liners die off their place will be taken by Americans brainwashed about guns being banned for their entire life. My fear is it won't happen in our lifetime no matter what Diane F*** wants but 50 years from now I doubt we'll recognize the gun culture that is left.

zxcvbob
February 4, 2013, 08:51 PM
Let's be hypothetical for a moment. If Congress passed an amendment to the Constitution that made all firearms illegal starting 1/1/2014, I believe there would be a huge revolt and some sort of civil war. There would be non-compliance and bloodshed.


Congress cannot pass a constitutional amendment. It has to be ratified by the states.

Trent
February 4, 2013, 09:03 PM
Without taking us down the rabbit hole too far, I see no reason to believe that a government formed post some type of revolution would be something any of us would recognize or would give our sacred fortunes and lives for.

If the great men -- the Jeffersons, Washingtons, Adamses, etc. -- exist now to convene and usher in a new entity founded on the bedrock of personal liberty and constructed to be a sustainable government of the people, by the people, and for the people, where our own Constitution has failed...

WHERE ARE THEY NOW?

Agreed, 1000%. I've actually put a great deal of thought in to the "what happens next" part and it scares the hell out of me.

Take 20 random strangers - just look around next time you're at a fast food joint or standing in a line for something.

Now imagine you're debating how to re-form a country with those people.

Everyone has their own ideas. No one can agree on anything.

The fact that our founding fathers were able to not only UNITE all of the States, but hold them together in a fashion that has endured a couple of frigging centuries, ranks up there with one of the miraculous feats in human history.

The fact that the country fractured once, and was healed in it's original form without oppression, is also a stunning achievement.

Don't be so quick to throw all of that away over ONE thing.

Because what you get AFTER the fact, might be incredibly different from what you WANTED.

While we can still use our voices and votes, use them.

If it ever comes to force of arms... it might be better to be one of the early casualties. Because the aftermath, EITHER way, could be drastically different from anything you could possibly envision before-hand.

David White
February 4, 2013, 09:39 PM
The George Washington's, Thomas Jefferson's are here. There are leaders just waiting in the wings.
If you think that actions and plans are not already in place or being finalized, you would be wrong.
If you think that this forum has not already been infiltrated. You are delusional at best.
They are watching already. Names have been taken and they mean business.

You best believe that we are on the edge of radicalism this very moment in time.

It's coming and it will be sooner that everyone thinks. Don't get caught out in the open when it does.

Steel Horse Rider
February 4, 2013, 10:31 PM
If any of you ever wondered why the Jews voluntarily boarded the trains to the death camps you have now been able to read some seven pages of rationalization for not making the overseers angry........

klover
February 4, 2013, 10:38 PM
$exy Dianne.

Please do:

Ryanxia
February 4, 2013, 11:11 PM
http://i1.cpcache.com/product_zoom/372818623/molon_labe_ceramic_travel_mug.jpg?height=160&width=160&padToSquare=true
This. :D

No need to die in your front yard however.RESIST in other ways. There are thousands of ways to fight.

Completely unrelated but the Vietnamese didn't just send all troops charging against us, they had their regular Army but many engaged in guerrilla tactics, sabotage, espionage, communications, feeding the regular troops, etc. etc.

Robert
February 5, 2013, 12:17 AM
That's enough for this one.

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