Anyone still using .45 GAP?


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Yo Mama
February 2, 2013, 03:09 PM
Just been a while since I saw the round pushed. Now that Glock has offered the ability to use ACP for years, has the demand for GAP chamberings lowered?

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Skribs
February 2, 2013, 03:15 PM
Glock came out with .45 ACP pistols long before .45 GAP. I think a few people still have it, but overall its gone by the wayside. When I was looking at it, I saw the capacity between .45 ACP and .45 GAP and thought "why on Earth would I go for that?"

Walt Sherrill
February 2, 2013, 03:33 PM
I have had several .45s (a.c.p.) and still have a SIG P-220 Super Match. Great gun.

I also have a Glock 38, which is very accurate and the softest-hooting .45 I've ever shot.

The .45 GAP ammo, if bought in bulk, is not always more expensive than .45 acp, and you can still find some, nowadays, when everything else is sold out. (That has proved to be an unexpected positive, for me.)

postalnut25
February 2, 2013, 03:36 PM
I still keep a Springfield XD in 45GAP stashed around the house. It is so similar in performance to 45ACP that most people couldn't tell the difference without you pointing it out.

What I like about it is the size. Both my wife and I have small hands, so the smaller grip size is appreciated when compared to a similar firearm in 45ACP.

SharpsDressedMan
February 2, 2013, 09:36 PM
I kinda wish I had bought a Glock 39 to stick in my sock............:D

meanmrmustard
February 2, 2013, 10:17 PM
357 sig makes Some sense. Fast, less recoil, adversity. Bridges a gap.

GAP doesn't add the cauldron an ingredient we need.

jmr40
February 2, 2013, 10:53 PM
Glock managed to convince several state police agencies to give the GAP a chance. I know Georgia State Patrol carries them. I haven't heard anything one way or another about how well they are liked or about performance.

I could be wrong, but believe they will probably go to something else when it is time to replace their current guns though.

Walt Sherrill
February 2, 2013, 11:05 PM
GAP doesn't add the cauldron an ingredient we need.

If you're focusing on cartridge performance, you're right, but...

If you're stuck with small hands, having 10-rounds of .45 GAP in a smaller grip frame (i.e., Glock 17) makes more sense than 7-8 rounds in a 1911, or 13-rounds in a grip (as in the Glock 21) that is simply too large (and feels, to some, like you're holding a 2x4).

My hand isn't small, but I could never get comfortable with the double-stack .45 Glocks, and that is NOT a problem with the Glock .45 GAP versions. I have a Glock 38 and love it. (I've had numerous 1911s, and still have a P-220 Super Match.)

The new SIG P-227 may make the .45 GAP Glocks less functionally unique.

meanmrmustard
February 3, 2013, 01:41 AM
If you're focusing on cartridge performance, you're right, but...

If you're stuck with small hands, having 10-rounds of .45 GAP in a smaller grip frame (i.e., Glock 17) makes more sense than 7-8 rounds in a 1911, or 13-rounds in a grip (as in the Glock 21) that is simply too large (and feels, to some, like you're holding a 2x4).

My hand isn't small, but I could never get comfortable with the double-stack .45 Glocks, and that is NOT a problem with the Glock .45 GAP versions. I have a Glock 38 and love it. (I've had numerous 1911s, and still have a P-220 Super Match.)

The new SIG P-227 may make the .45 GAP Glocks less functionally unique.
My hands aren't large. That's why the SF guns make sense, and I do well with them.

Ballistically, its a bastard round. Logistically, its also needless. I can manage a 21SF with medium hands, same with the 20.

Answer to a question I can't fathom who would ask.

ugaarguy
February 3, 2013, 02:13 AM
If you're stuck with small hands, having 10-rounds of .45 GAP in a smaller grip frame (i.e., Glock 17) makes more sense than 7-8 rounds in a 1911, or 13-rounds in a grip (as in the Glock 21) that is simply too large (and feels, to some, like you're holding a 2x4).
Except that a 1911 Commander essentially the same height and width as a Glock 38 and holds 8 rounds of .45 ACP to the G38's 8 rounds of 45 GAP. However, the commander is thinner, has a smaller grip, and has a rounded slide making concealed carry easier. The only penalty to a 1911 LW Commander is that it's slightly heavier.

Also, If you engineer your pistol to use a metal magazine rather than a metal lined plastic magazine you eliminate the thick grip problem of a staggered column magazine .45 ACP - see below.

The new SIG P-227 may make the .45 GAP Glocks less functionally unique.Really? The S&W M&P 45 with the same capacity as the P227 and the Springfield Armory XD45 with higher capacity didn't already do this years ago? With their striker fire and polymer frames the S&W M&P 45 and SA XD 45 are also functionally much closer to Glocks than a metal framed, DA/SA, hammer fired SIG.

deadduck357
February 3, 2013, 02:25 AM
The .45 GAP is a very good cartridge. Too bad it hasn't gained a hole lotta ground outside LE. It has the same performance as a .45 ACP +P in a 9x19mm length cartridge.

ThusEver2Tyrants
February 3, 2013, 03:50 AM
I dont have one nor want one but where I am from (greenville nc)( home of the ECU pirates)

Both campus police as well as gvpd carry the 37. They moved from a 9 after apparently having to put over 8-9 rounds in a knife wielding meth head...

SharpsDressedMan
February 3, 2013, 08:53 AM
Sometimes I daydream, and when looking at the little Glock 39, and all the technology that went into it, I can't help but think the O.S.S. would have done a lot better to have dropped the Glock 39 into partisan hands in Europe and SE Asia during WWII than the the "Liberator" pistol. :D

Walt Sherrill
February 3, 2013, 10:36 AM
I can't help but think the O.S.S. would have done a lot better to have dropped the Glock 39 into partisan hands in Europe and SE Asia during WWII than the the "Liberator" pistol.

There's a sci-fi series of books that projects what might have happened had the Confederacy in the U.S. been equipped with AK-47s by racist time-travelers from the 1990s... That's the sort of idea you've put forward.

Gaston Glock, however, was only about 13 when they made the Liberator (1942), which was designed by the U.S. Army and built by G.M (who made over a million of them). Gaston Glock didn't make his first Glock pistol until he was in his 50's.

The O.S.S. was looking for a CHEAP weapon that could be used to kill a German soldier and then steal his weapon. A polymer-framed G-39 would not have been cheap, as polymer was still a very exotic and expensive material, back then. But, had we had TIME TRAVEL, and the ability to "ship in" a few thousands, such a weapon would certainly have made "underground" forces more effective.

On the other hand, I haven't read much that indicates the .45 Liberators were used a lot -- strange when you consider how many were made! -- but had more-modern (Glock 39-like) weapons been available, it's hard to imagine what ELSE might have been available, too. That is scary.

CDW4ME
February 3, 2013, 11:57 AM
I've had a Glock 38 since about 2007
It is soft shooting (compared to a glock 23 in 40 S&W) even with 230 gr. ammo
I like my 23, but have been carrying the 38, little less snap along with a little bigger bullet.

I have a Glock 30 SF in 45 acp, but I like the feel of the 38 better.
The 30 SF with 10 round magazine and its oversize base pinches my pinky, using a Pearce base doesn't help.
I will only use 9 round flush fitting magazines in the 30 SF which leave my pinky without support, or pinch.
Although I've had those magazines loaded for months, they will still only accept 8 rounds, not nine.
The 30 SF due to its slightly shorter length and noticeably shorter height is best suited for (in my use) appendix or Smartcarry.

The 38 is a strong side IWB type pistol, in my use.

The above difference details exactly why the Glock 38 (45 GAP) is useful for some people (me); I can't stand the "it's the answer to a question nobody asked :barf:" comments made by people that have never fired a round of GAP.

The 38 allows me to decide if I want a 45 or a 40 on the exact same size frame; the slide is slightly thicker than the 9mm or 40 pistols, but I think that little extra helps absorb recoil.

Choices:
Glock 38: 8 + 1 of 45
Glock 23: 13 + 1 of 40
Glock 19: 15 + 1 of 9mm

I'm a "bigger bullet" kind of guy.
On election day, I bought a older model 38 (LE?xxx) that was still NIB.
Yes, I bought a 2nd Glock 38. :D
Given the issues with recent 3rd & 4th generation Glocks, I figured an older Glock was logical.
I put XS Big Dots on the 2nd model 38, the first one has Meprolights; I prefer the XS Big Dots for 6-7 yard shooting / quick sight acquisition.

Brass to face with recent Glocks?
Not this one! Brass ejected just like it did with my 2007 pistol, consistently about four o'clock and a foot away- not strong, but consistent.

Winchester Ranger 230 gr. ammo averaged 803 fps out of the 38.

m3mh0g
February 3, 2013, 12:01 PM
My brother in law is a cop in metro St. Louis and he was issued both of the 45 GAP glocks. So they are still alive and well in some circles.

Blueduck
February 3, 2013, 01:09 PM
I've never understood the confusion over the GAP or the phrase "It's an answer to a question nobody asked." so often used in relation to it.

Even the SF framed Glock 45's are siginicantly larger than 9/40/357 sig framed Glock pistols. It was put of for PD's and people who did in fact "Ask" for a "45" in the same frame as the Glock 9mm/40. Not fixated on the 45 caliber?, don't have small hands or arming a group of people that might include those with smaller than average hands? move along. If you are under BOTH those requirments, well there it is, it's a buying option.

Many of the PD's and State Police who went with it were transitioning from 9mm or 40 Glocks, so no major need for new training on the change was also taken into account. It's not my cup of tea, but if I lived in a "ten round" state, I certainly might give the 37 a look.

Solo
February 3, 2013, 01:16 PM
There's a sci-fi series of books that projects what might have happened had the Confederacy in the U.S. been equipped with AK-47s by racist time-travelers from the 1990s...
I'm intrigued. How did racists from the 1990's...
1) Obtain either a DeLorean or a blue police call box
2) Obtain enough arms and ammunition to do this without raising a few eyebrows
3) Give the South the manufacturing capability to produce and maintain enough of the guns and ammunition it would have needed?

Blueduck
February 3, 2013, 01:30 PM
I read the book too (Guns of the South), it was really odd. Was the South African government I believe who funded the whole deal. Author was willing to take that one really wild silly time travel leap (no pun intended), but everything else appeared meticulously researched, and supported down to very minor characters names and ranks in Civil war battles.

You don't even want to know how this affected WW II in the sequel :scrutiny:

Walt Sherrill
February 3, 2013, 04:29 PM
1) Obtain either a DeLorean or a blue police call box
2) Obtain enough arms and ammunition to do this without raising a few eyebrows
3) Give the South the manufacturing capability to produce and maintain enough of the guns and ammunition it would have needed?

You have to read the book. In the book, they didn't need any of that. They brought it ALL with them!! Along with armorers, spare equipment, and their equivalent of Special Forces to train the Southern soldiers.

Plenty of AKs and ammo was available on the world market after the Vietnam war so the time travelers could have gotten hold if it pretty easily. In the book, it was all "imported" by the time travelers. The time-travelers may have been from earlier than the 90s -- maybe late 70's or early 80's -- I read it a long time ago. (The 90's makes sense, since that was when the Whites in South Africa finally gave up their fight to maintain control there.)

Had the weapons been "imported" early enough in the U.S. Civil War, Southern forces could have ended things far long before the North found some competent leaders, fired up their industrial power, and used a War of Attrition to grind the South down to near nothing.

Reliable full-auto weappms would have given any Confederate force a formidable force multiplier in any confrontation or battle, and the South's Cavalry, a real pain in the North's side (or elsewhere) early in the war, would have had even more devastating effect.

Walt Sherrill
February 3, 2013, 04:41 PM
Really? The S&W M&P 45 with the same capacity as the P227 and the Springfield Armory XD45 with higher capacity didn't already do this years ago? With their striker fire and polymer frames the S&W M&P 45 and SA XD 45 are also functionally much closer to Glocks than a metal framed, DA/SA, hammer fired SIG.

I think the P-227 has optional mags that will hold 13-14 rounds, and that's pretty impressive. especially for those of us who like the P-220, but hate the 7-8 round mags.

Answer to a question I can't fathom who would ask.

While you clearly can't fathom why anyone would ask, your INABILITY isn't shared by others. A number of folks here HAVE asked, and like the answer.

A lot of this is like the debates you see when talking about Fords and Chevys...

meanmrmustard
February 3, 2013, 04:45 PM
I think the P-227 has optional mags that will hold 13-14 rounds, and that's pretty impressive. especially for those of us who like the P-220, but hate the 7-8 round mags.



While you clearly can't fathom why anyone would ask, your INABILITY isn't shared by others. A number of folks here HAVE asked, and like the answer.

A lot of this is like the debates you see when talking about Fords and Chevys...
Inability? To do what? See that Glock, IIRC, is now the only one carrying gun for it?

Walt Sherrill
February 3, 2013, 05:05 PM
Had you QUOTED the pertinent part of my response (Post #21), IN CONTEXT, it might have made more sense to you. You didn't show that part.

Answer to a question I can't fathom who would ask.

That was quoted directly from your post (#9).
I was referring to YOUR inability to understand why anyone would want a .45 GAP Those were YOUR words, not mine. I appreciate that you don't want a .45 GAP weapon. I understand. I can fathom that. But you're not me.

There are guns I don't want, myself: I don't want a .357 SIG weapon, or a 10mm handgun, or a .44 magnum or S&W 500 Magnum revolvers, either -- but I CAN fathom why a few folks might want one or more of those guns.

To each his own.

meanmrmustard
February 3, 2013, 05:08 PM
Just answering your question/statement...

Inability? It's simple: I'm talking about YOUR inability to fathom why anyone would ask. It's clear that a number of participants here have, in effect, asked, and nearly all of them explained WHY and offered rational reasons.

I appreciate that you don't want a .45 GAP weapon. I don't want a .357 SIG weapon, or a 10mm handgun, or a .44 magnum revolver. I surely don't want a S&W 500 Magnum revolver, either -- but I understand why a few folks might want any or all of those guns.

To each his own.
Ok, I was genuinely confused.

I guess I come off as abrasive. It's not that the round isn't good, I've just no need to add it. For me its harder to find than .357 sig, which I enjoy for longer range shooting and being a barrel swap away from .40 S&W.

I don't do .44 mags either. I'm always on the lookout for a Model 22 Smith.

Walt Sherrill
February 3, 2013, 05:21 PM
I see we aren't that far apart. Let us go in peace. <Grin>

I might be convinced to try .357 SIG again (I have a Glock 23 with a .357 conversion barrel), but I find the ammo price off-putting -- especially , when I can use a 9mm conversion barrel for punching paper (which is about all I'll use that gun for.)

My son, a NC State Trooper, feels differently about .357 SIG. He has a S&W M&P issued in that caliber -- and he can get ammo a lot easier than I can. (He's thinking about getting a 23 in the future, and when he does, I'll probably give him my .357 SIG barrel.)

IF you can find me a .45 with the same size grip and capacity as a .45 GAP gun, I'll probably give up my Glock 38, or hope they make a conversion barrel for it. (Nothing along that line out there that I can see...) Recently, .45 GAP has been the ONLY ammo I can find, and earlier, when I was buying it from Georgia Arms (when they had ammo in stock), it was the same price as .45 ACP -- which isn't bad.

meanmrmustard
February 3, 2013, 05:33 PM
I see we aren't that far apart. Let us go in peace. <Grin>

I might be convinced to try .357 SIG (I have a Glock 23 with a .357 conversion barrel), but I find the price off-putting, when I can use a 9mm conversion barrel for punching paper (which is about all I'll use that gun for.)

My son, a NC State Trooper, feels differently about .357 SIG. He has a S&W M&P issued in that caliber -- and he can get ammo a lot easier than I can.
Hence why GAP is popular with LE too. They can acquire it faster and cheaper. It's actually not that bad, but as available as Quadricorn milk round these parts.

rtz
February 3, 2013, 05:51 PM
The strange thing about the Glock 21: Wrap your hand around the magazine. Not bad. Look at the back of the grip and all that hollow space and how it bulges out like that. No need or reason. I have big hands and that grip is huge!

ugaarguy
February 4, 2013, 03:06 AM
Walt, there have been 14 round mags available for the S&W M&P 45 for several years. The SA XD 45 4 inch has 13 round flush fit mags, and is the same size ( if not slightly smaller in the grip ) as a Glock 38. The SA XD series is proof that the answer is grip and magazine engineering, not a new cartridge.

CLP
February 4, 2013, 03:34 AM
I bought a Glock 37 because it was being sold for 375 NIB and the 45 GAP has comparable ballistics to the 45 ACP. I also have a 1911 in 45 ACP, so I guess some part of the reason I bought it was that it was something new and different. I bought a couple thousand Starline brass and load them with the same Nosler 185gr JHP's that I use in my 1911. Have put about 500 rounds through it, about 15 of them were factory rounds, the rest being handloads. It's a fine round, but I'll agree that its arrival was sort of a solution to a problem that didn't exist. My biggest complaint about the G37 is that they only come with 10rd mags.

Walt Sherrill
February 4, 2013, 11:09 AM
Walt, there have been 14 round mags available for the S&W M&P 45 for several years. The SA XD 45 4 inch has 13 round flush fit mags, and is the same size ( if not slightly smaller in the grip ) as a Glock 38. The SA XD series is proof that the answer is grip and magazine engineering, not a new cartridge.

Good points, and valid. But that wasn't the case when the .45 GAP was first introduced.

If you're saying Glock should have worked on grip size rather than Cartridge, I'll agree -- but I don't see the .45 GAP as a bigger abomination than a number of other cartridges, and my Glock 38, remains one of the easiest shooting .45s I've ever fired. I've had a number of 1911s, SIG 220s, Witness .45s, and a CZ-97. I like how the 38 shoots better than any of them. but I'll admit that I'm a bit more accurate with my SIG P-220 Super Match. In terms of price/performance, however, I paid 3 times more for the used Super Match than the used 38, and to my way of thinking, there's not THAT much difference in their relative performance.

As noted above, the Glock 21's grip could have been made smaller -- and had they done so, I might have had one and never bought a 38. The 21s I shot felt like 2"x4"s in my hand -- downright offputting. I'll probably try a 227, one of these days. (I have a "SpeedSpecialities"-tuned M&P Pro in 9mm and it's a fine gun, so an M&P 45 isn't out of the question, either.)

Fiv3r
February 4, 2013, 04:00 PM
My buddy on the Sheriff's Department told me that they were issued GAP Glocks. That kind of surprised me as I think the City cops carry a .40.

I would give the GAP a chance if I stumbled onto one at a good price. I can't shoot ACP right now as I can't find it anywhere. No big deal. I'm having fun making smoke with my Black Powder guns while I wait for the silliness to die down.

That said, having a smaller framed .45 Glock in my stable wouldn't be a bad thing. Plus, the highly irrational side of me reminds my reptilian brain that I live out in the country surrounded by many Deputy neighbors with duty weapons and personal weapons in their issued caliber. In a case where things went south, some of the first people I would try to formulate a plan with these fine folks. It might be nice to have a gun that eats what theirs do:o

MaterDei
February 4, 2013, 04:10 PM
I thought the 45GAP was an April fool's joke. Do you mean to say that it wasn't?

Blueduck
February 4, 2013, 06:16 PM
I'm guessing since 10% of State Police Agencies in the Nation issue it, I'm guessing not :confused:

SharpsDressedMan
February 4, 2013, 07:10 PM
OK, so some of you don't like it.....and probably can't even articulate why. The cartridge is more compact and EFFICIENT by size than the .45ACP, but the sheer abundance of brass, ammo, and guns for ACP is going to stymie any effort by the GAP to replace it. I get that. But, if a person likes the size of 9mm pistols, or compact guns, or has smaller hands, and STILL likes big bores, the little GAP guns give them more options. Get over it. It the GAP isn't for YOU, then can we let other people choose for their OWN reasons? I don't own one, but I think they are WORTHY of consideration for many reasons.

Old Fuff
February 4, 2013, 08:10 PM
I don't own one, but I think they are WORTHY of consideration for many reasons.

Ah, and so does the Old Fuff. By shortening the case length you can fit a .45 cartridge into a 9mm/.40 frame rather then a larger one needed for the .45 ACP and give up nothing of consequence. It is not intended to be a rival to the longer round, but rather an additional option. If a compact .45 is what is desired, it can “out-compact” any regular .45 ACP. When double-column magazines are the order of the day most folks find the .9mm/.40 size handle to be easier to hold on to.

For a manufacturer they’re meaningful savings when you can use one lower (frame assembly) to make more guns. More limited production on a larger one translates in to higher costs.

Were someone to chamber a pocket-sized revolver to use the Glock cartridge the cylinder could be shortened, bulk and weight would be reduced, and extraction & ejection would be more positive.

What’s not to like? ;)

ugaarguy
February 5, 2013, 01:43 AM
But, if a person likes the size of 9mm pistols, or compact guns, or has smaller hands, and STILL likes big bores, the little GAP guns give them more options.
Several of you keep insisting on this, but it simply isn't true. There are only three pistols, all Glocks, still offered in .45 GAP

Once again, the SA XD 45 Service / 4 Inch is the same size as a Glock 38, and smaller than the G37. Said XD holds 13 rounds of 45 ACP, which is five more rounds than the G38 holds of .45 GAP, and still three more rounds than the even larger G37 holds .45 GAP. The S&W M&P 45 is comparable in size to the G37, and holds the same number of rounds, but the Smith holds the bigger rounds.

1911 Commanders and clones in .45 ACP are thinner than all double stack Glocks (even more so with slim grips), fall in between the G38 and G37 in size, and equal the G38's capacity.

The S&W M&P 45c with its 8 round mags holds as much .45 ACP as the G38 holds .45 GAP, and does so in a comparably sized package. The Kahr TP45 in 45 ACP gives up only one round of capacity to the G38. The TP45 is slightly taller, but is also slightly shorter, and significantly thinner, than the G38.

The G39 holds six rounds of 45 GAP in its subcompact frame, yet the Kahr PM45 holds 5 rounds of 45 ACP in an even smaller and slimmer package.

If someone other than Glock would offer a pistol in .45 GAP then smaller sizes with equivalent capacities would be a reality. Right now the smaller size of .45 GAP pistols is unexploited potential.

FIVETWOSEVEN
February 5, 2013, 01:50 AM
I think that .45 GAP would be nice to have in a XDs sized gun. Can you make GAP brass from ACP?

ugaarguy
February 5, 2013, 02:11 AM
Can you make GAP brass from ACP?
No, because the gap has a thicker case web, and uses a small pistol primer vs. the ACP's large primer. Starline has new brass in stock, but they're not even taking back orders on .45 ACP brass.

Quiet
February 5, 2013, 03:53 AM
Five state law enforcement agencies still use Glocks in .45GAP.

Hard_Cast
February 5, 2013, 04:11 AM
Regardless of who is using it currently, no major federal agency has picked it up that I have seen. With only a handful of state police using the cartridge, I really think that the GAP will fall from favor within 5 more years. As others have noted, Glock is the only mfg. that still produces this chambering, and the general public will not continue demand for such a cartridge for much longer. I wouldn't buy one currently, especially if you can't cut down ACP brass to form GAP. Starline is pretty good about keeping odd or hard-to-get calibers in production, though, so reloaders may have no worries, at least for some time.

The GAP seemed a little odd to me from the get-go. But then again, the .40 Short and Weak has hung on. I think its continued use by Fed, State, and Local Agencies has cemented its place in the world, as well as consumer appeal. The GAP doesn't have such a following... and I see it as only a matter of time.

Walt Sherrill
February 5, 2013, 09:10 AM
But, if a person likes the size of 9mm pistols, or compact guns, or has smaller hands, and STILL likes big bores, the little GAP guns give them more options.

Several of you keep insisting on this, but it simply isn't true. There are only three pistols, all Glocks, still offered in .45 GAP

Despite your claims to the contrary, the quoted statement above IS true -- the Glock "GAP" guns offer more options. That doesn't mean these models are the ONLY or the BEST options, but their existence does offer shooters alternatives.

I like Glocks, but I also like other guns. I happen to like my Glock 38, and find it one of the easiest shooting .45s I've owned. But, that's just me.

Are the Glock GAP models the ONLY or BEST options for those who don't like larger grips in a .45? Perhaps not -- but that doesn't mean they aren't good alternatives for many folks. Some folks really like Glocks, and don't like the FEEL or FIT of the .45 A.C.P. Glock offerings, or many of the other alternatives. There's no accounting for taste, as the old saying goes.

This debate seems a lot like the usual HOLY WAR we often see between advocates of the one true Gun God, John Browning (and his 1911 design), and those who prefer weapons designed by one of the other false Gun Gods. It's THAT kind of discussion and about as as meaningful. As in some other things, I remain an agnostic.

.

Aceoky
February 5, 2013, 02:52 PM
Being a higher pressure round how is brass life compared to the ACP?

NG VI
February 5, 2013, 04:18 PM
It's not a high pressure round, just slightly higher than ACP, so I'd expect pretty similar brass life, although there's the loose Glock chamber that probably doesn't help much.

HKGuns
February 5, 2013, 06:46 PM
I never have and never will, but then I haven't and will never own a gLoCk either. Yes I am biased as is most everyone else.

Ah, and so does the Old Fuff.

Fluff, you're stretching the truth a bit with that statement. We really know you mean you wish they would make a small frame revolver in .45GAP! :)

Hard_Cast
February 5, 2013, 06:53 PM
I see no way its not a higher pressure round if you are achieving ~same velocities, with same bullet weights and in a shorter cartridge. BUT, its probably a non-issue, as it seems they put a thicker web (probably for margin of safety and brass life).

groundhog34
February 5, 2013, 07:24 PM
Problem is Herr Glock would have been on the Axis side.

Walt Sherrill
February 5, 2013, 07:33 PM
Hard Cast: I think you read more into the original question and NG VI's response than did the authors:

The original question asked about 45 GAP being a "high" pressure round.

NG VI said it wasn't a HIGH PRESSURE round, but he also said it had slightly higher pressure than the standard .45 ACP round. A Shooting Times article you can find on the web -- and linked below -- shows the following:
45 Auto = 21,000 psi
45 Auto +P = 23,000 psi
45 GAP = 23,000 psi
40 S&W = 35,000 psi
9mm Luger = 35,000 psi


The .45 GAP round has about 2/3 the pressure of the 9mm and .40 rounds, which are considered high pressure rounds, and is roughly equivalent to the pressure of .45 ACP +P. Performance is slightly less than the .45 ACP round.

Here's a link to the article, which is quite thorough -- and addresses other characteristics of the round.

http://www.shootingtimes.com/2011/01/04/ammunition_new_45/

Onmilo
February 5, 2013, 08:11 PM
Judging from the responses to this thread, I am guessing five police agencies and R. Lee Ermy are the only folks actually using the .45 GAP,,,

Walt Sherrill
February 5, 2013, 09:11 PM
Don't think you're going to find TOO MANY police agencies using .45 ACP, either. It's not a popular police round -- compared to .40 or 9mm. On the other hand, I would guess that as many as HALF of the people posting in this thread are using it.

Ash
February 6, 2013, 07:07 AM
Better or no, GAP is on the decline if based only on the evidence of Gander Mountain. I went there over the weekend and observed the state of ammo availability on the shelves. At my local Gander, there was no military caliber other than 30-06 or 7.62x54r available (and with 30-06, no M2 equivalent, only hunting rounds). Handgun ammo wasn't so bad, there was a trickle of all calibers, a few boxes in .357, 40S&W, no 9mm at all, a few boxes of 45ACP...

And a ton of .45GAP. Nobody was buying the GAP ammo. I mean, it was easily 35% of the handgun ammo of all flavors on the long shelf. Supply vs demand of course is evident: plenty of .45GAP because nobody was buying it. It spread on the shelf like oil on water in some attempt to gain equilibrium.

For GAP shooters, that was temporary good news. But it means that interest in the round - based on admittedly limited observations of a single store (but hey, such a concept works for conclusions on man-made global warming) - has waned. Ammo manufacturers will find it less and less compelling to manufacture. It may not go away altogether as in the 41AE, but it may find itself more like the .32S&W Long.

Regardless of your opinion of the round's versatility, it is not doing well. .41AE was a great round but never really got traction and was buried by the .40S&W when it came out. .45GAP was the first of two choices: new round, new magazine. Glock could have simply designed its pistols around the .45acp like everyone else did. They chose the option of designing a round to fit their concept of a pistol instead.

Walt Sherrill
February 6, 2013, 10:57 AM
I buy most of my .45 GAP from Georgia Arms, and they'll probably continue to have that caliber for a long time to come. (They can arguably fabricate cases pretty easily.)

I don't know that .45 GAP is on the decline -- but agree that it never really TOOK OFF.

If ammo makers and reloaders can continue to sell 10MM and .32 Magnum, they'll probably continue to sell .45 GAP, too. There was a lot of .38 Special available during the current shortage, but that alone doesn't mean that they'll stop loading that round...

Ash
February 6, 2013, 06:25 PM
Yeah, but the .38 special is not targeted by the anti's - apples and oranges.

Auto pistols are, yet suddenly the only thing easy to get in quantity is GAP.

Soldiernurse
February 7, 2013, 12:21 PM
This thread has been fascinating. The other day I ordered a Gen 4 Glock 30. The salesman told me the G4 G30 w/o a backstrap is smaller than the SF. This talk of the .45GAP intrigues me since I have small hands. However, since the G30 is a sub-compact I hope I made the right decision. I'm a CHL guy not a LEO. I may not EDC the G30 but wanted to add a 45 to my little armory.

CLP
February 7, 2013, 03:39 PM
Another reason I like shooting my G37 is that I can actually find brass in stock for 45 GAP.

Ash
February 7, 2013, 09:00 PM
For now...

Walt Sherrill
February 7, 2013, 09:09 PM
Ash? Why do you care?

Ash
February 7, 2013, 11:17 PM
I don't, any more than I care if a tree across the road dies and falls into the forest. It does not change an observation one way or the other. Finding brass in stock right now does not make it superior, only convenient as the more used rounds are gone.

You suppose the ammo manufacturers are churning out any GAP right now? Probably not.

I don't care, just making the devil's advocate observation...not trying to step on toes.

VA27
February 8, 2013, 12:14 AM
If anyone made a PM40-sized gun in GAP, 357SIG or 5.7X28 I'd buy one...of each!

Walt Sherrill
February 8, 2013, 09:40 AM
I don't, any more than I care if a tree across the road dies and falls into the forest. It does not change an observation one way or the other. Finding brass in stock right now does not make it superior, only convenient as the more used rounds are gone.

I was just curious, as in my experience people who really don't care about something seldom invest time and effort in being critical about the thing they really don't care about...

bikerdoc
February 8, 2013, 10:09 AM
Educational thread. When Walt talks I listen.

Walt Sherrill
February 9, 2013, 09:33 PM
If anyone made a PM40-sized gun in GAP, 357SIG or 5.7X28 I'd buy one...of each!

The Kahr PM45 is pretty close: 1/2" higher, .2" longer, and 2 oz. heavier than the PM40. It's available in .45 ACP, not .45 GAP. It's 5+1,( or 6+1 or7+1 if you use other Kahr mags.) I assume the mags from the larger ?P45 guns are interchangeable, but that may NOT be the case. I have handled one, and didn't find the grip to be too large, but didn't examine THAT aspect of it all that closely.

Texshooter
February 10, 2013, 08:48 PM
still carry one? There ya go.

I have a chance to buy one at a really low price, so I started looking at ammo yesterday.

I actuall found more GAP & ACP than anything else.

Both seemed to be about the same price.

I think about 5 State Patrol agencies use them, but not sure.

Might get it coz of price.

Mid size - Mod 38?

Walt Sherrill
February 11, 2013, 07:27 PM
Mid size [ Mode 38?

That's what I got. Unfired, from a local seller, for $350. Didn't see how I could go wrong.

If I have to eventually find a conversion barrel (none are made now, that I can find), or a different slide (if that's even possible), I'll go that route. In the meantime, I've got a gun I like a lot.

Maj Dad
February 12, 2013, 10:34 PM
Local PD recently (year or so I think) switched to GAP. At least they have a 45 cal slug.

Fishslayer
February 16, 2013, 02:34 PM
Well, does not R Lee still carry one? There ya go.


If St. Gaston of Polymer was writing me checks I would carry one too.:evil:

As of last week a lonely Model something or other in .45GAP was still the only Glock left in the case at my LGS.

As for brass... used .45ACP brass is free to dirt cheap.

Walt Sherrill
February 16, 2013, 04:00 PM
As of last week a lonely Model something or other in .45GAP was still the only Glock left in the case at my LGS.

As for brass... used .45ACP brass is free to dirt cheap

Can't that be converted to .45 GAP pretty easily?

TanklessPro
February 17, 2013, 04:27 PM
I'm not a fan of Glocks. Not that I hate them, I just don't own any.
I do own a XD LE in 45GAP. I really like it and it shoots well.
I don't know how long ammo will be easily available, but I guess Since Glock is the most sold handgun manufacturer year after year I bet it will be around as long as they want it to be. Also since they developed the round it will be here for awhile. YMMV

Quiet
February 17, 2013, 08:26 PM
There are a few European ammo manufacturers that are now making .45GAP ammo for the European markets.

.45GAP can be legally owned in countries that prohibits their citizens from possessing calibers that are in use by their Gov/Mil/LE.

Which is why HS PRodukt is still making HS-2000 pistols in .45GAP. Even though Springfield Armory no longer imports it to the USA.

PabloJ
February 17, 2013, 08:47 PM
Just been a while since I saw the round pushed. Now that Glock has offered the ability to use ACP for years, has the demand for GAP chamberings lowered?
With availability of G21SF and Gen IV G21 it should be on it's "last legs". I would not touch
.45GAP chambered gun with a flag pole.

Snowdog
February 17, 2013, 08:48 PM
I want one for no other reason than the appearance of the cartridge. I have a thing for short, squat cartridges (which is possibly why I like the .380 and 9x18).

It's on my list.

jbkebert
March 6, 2013, 11:21 PM
An acquaintance of mine just picked up a Ruger SR1911 at Cabela's a couple weeks ago. This was his first handgun and a pretty nice one. I turns out the friendly folks at Cabela's sent him home with four boxes of 45GAP ammo go with it. I will ask the details but is their any interest from folks to buy this ammo.

I almost bought a baby glock in 45 until I saw it said 45 gap. That was a huge deal breaker for me.

Walt Sherrill
March 7, 2013, 10:16 AM
RE: .45 GAP...

I don't know how long ammo will be easily available, but I guess Since Glock is the most sold handgun manufacturer year after year I bet it will be around as long as they want it to be. Also since they developed the round it will be here for awhile. YMMV

All sorts of obscure calibers are still available, even though there aren't a LOT of guns out there that use them. About the only round I've seen die out over the last 20 years or so is .41AE. I'll bet there are as many .45 GAP guns out there as 10mm; 10mm ammo continues to be available.

I don't reload, but I understand that .45 GAP can be adapted from the .45 ACP case pretty easily, I would expect reloaders and vendors like Georgia Arms (one of my favorite ammo sources) to have .45 GAP available for a long time to come.

The last time I bought in bulk, right before the current hysteria, I got 500 rounds of .45 GAP from Georgia Arms for the same price as .45 ACP, and later bought another half-case of .45 GAP from MidwayUSA, paying only a modest premium over .45 ACP.

.45 GAP may eventually go away, but if IT does, so will 10mm, .45 LC, .44 Magnum, .38 Super, etc., etc., etc. For the same reasons...

Elkins45
March 7, 2013, 11:11 AM
.45GAP can be legally owned in countries that prohibits their citizens from possessing calibers that are in use by their Gov/Mil/LE.

If I were unfortunate to live in one of those countries this would be all the justification for the GAP ever needed.

I don't have one and I doubt I ever will, but there is this very specific niche it fills that gives it a value beyond the guns and the ballistic comparisons. If your government won't let you own an ACP then the GAP starts to look pretty darned good.

Ask yourself which you would rather the Mexican border guard find rolling around in your trunk: a single forgotten round of 45 GAP or a round of 9mm? Hint---one of them sends you to prison.

FIVETWOSEVEN
March 7, 2013, 01:21 PM
If they narrowed the .45ACP magazine to only accept 10 rounds, wouldn't most people be able to grip it? Isn't that what other manufacturers did instead of designing a brand new cartridge?

PabloJ
March 7, 2013, 02:18 PM
Just been a while since I saw the round pushed. Now that Glock has offered the ability to use ACP for years, has the demand for GAP chamberings lowered?
It's rumored to be used by NYS, PA, SC, GA and FL State Police. I would not touch anything chambered with this cartridge with a flag pole.

Plan2Live
March 7, 2013, 10:22 PM
Standard issue for City of Sumter, SC Police Department and I believe SC Highway Patrol is using it. I have a friend on the Police Department and he loves it.

foxs
March 7, 2013, 10:58 PM
Pennsylvania state police
Glock 37

David E
March 7, 2013, 11:14 PM
If a 10 rd mag capacity restriction returns, the G-37 may see a resurgence.

If the choice is 10 rds of 9mm, .40 or .45, many would pick the largest of the 3

ku4hx
March 8, 2013, 08:56 AM
The 45 GAP to me is very similar to another of my favorites among obsolete and useless cartridges: 10mm Auto.

The 45 GAP may not be a "mainstream" cartridge, but for a long time scrounger and handloader such as me, it's a joy to load and shoot.

Hastings
March 28, 2013, 12:55 PM
I've reloaded a lot of 45gap for both the G37 and G38. I think the cartridge is fantastic. I get the same velocity out of bullets up to 230gr while using about 1 grain less powder than 45acp. I use everything from 180gr jacketed to 255gr Keith-style hardcast lead in the 45gap, and it is an excellent performing cartridge.

I have owned a G21sf, and while the grip size was not a problem, neither was it ideal. Just because you can wrap your hands around a brick doesn't mean it is the best feeling or most ergonomic option available. I have large hands, but just don't like the feel of the G20/21 grip frame.

For me, the Gen3 full-size grip frame is a perfect fit. If the grip is of the RTF2 variety, even better. If I can get 45acp bullet diameter, weight, and velocity out of a gun that fits me perfectly, why would I settle for anything less. That's why 45gap works for me. I also own an M&P 45c, and while I really like it I wish I could get a backstrap insert that would give me the same backstrap angle as a Glock. Even the largest insert fails to add to the grip at the bottom of the frame, and that's precisely where I want more meat. For me, that portion of the Glock frame is what makes it feel so secure and solid in my hand.

I understand those who dislike the 45gap. If you have a 45acp pistol that works perfectly for you, there is no need for a shorter cartridge. But I love the 45gap, and think it was a great idea. It's too bad that other companies don't take advantage of the cartridge. A S&W 45gap shield would be a nice, small gun. A 45gap snub-nose revolver with a frame sized for the cartridge would be a nice little gun, too.

380 and 9mm have a similar if not identical relationship. If the 380 could match the velocity and bullet weight range of the 9mm, but still work in smaller pistols, who would complain. So what's with all of the negativity aimed at the 45gap. Seems kinda silly.

Walt Sherrill
September 1, 2013, 10:51 AM
One of the BIG drawbacks to .45 GAP has been cost.

Recently -- this week in fact -- I picked up a half-case of .45 GAP from Georgia Arms (their "Canned Heat") the same price, shipped, as .45 ACP. I've generally found it pretty close to .45 ACP prices, and it was -- during the great ammo depression -- often easier to find. Ammo, generally, is coming back, and the prices seem to be dropping a bit.

Happily or unhappily, so darned many NEW GUNS were purchased during the past couple of years - many by folks who didn't shoot a lot -- I expect the demand to remain high and don't expect the prices to drop too far.

jimbo555
September 1, 2013, 12:36 PM
I don't use it. I just want my xds back!

David E
September 1, 2013, 01:03 PM
Yeah, but the .38 special is not targeted by the anti's - apples and oranges.

Auto pistols are....

I must say, that's a very naive view. Do you seriously think the antis will leave revolvers alone?

foxs
September 1, 2013, 01:13 PM
Pennsylvania state police

David E
September 1, 2013, 03:54 PM
One of the BIG drawbacks to .45 GAP has been cost.

When it first came out, there was a concerted effort to keep prices low, but that can only last so long.

.45 GAP...... was -- during the great ammo depression -- often easier to find.

The people that consolidated their calibers to the popular ones for "convenience" probably discovered the major downside of that approach: the popular calibers are the first ones to disappear from the shelves.

psp7304
September 7, 2013, 11:35 AM
Pennsylvania state police
Not anymore. Transitioning to the Gen4 Glock 21.

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