Doing business with the enemy.


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F4GIB
March 9, 2004, 02:30 PM
This company owns/manages the Mall of America in Bloomington, Minnesota. They BAN the carry of firearms in the Mall by those with Minnesota carry permits. They operate malls in 37 states.

Do they ban licensed carry in every state (or do they just discriminate where they think they can get away with it)???

Carry permit states with Simon Malls include: AL, AK, AZ, AR, CO, FL, GA, IN, KY, LA, ME, MI, MT, MO, NV, NH, NM, NC, ND, OK, PA, SC, SD, TN, TX, UT, VT, VA, WA, WV, WY and MN.
See their malls listed at http://www.simon.com/find_mall/

Simon Property Group, Inc., headquartered in Indianapolis, Indiana, is a real estate investment trust engaged in the ownership and management of income-producing properties, primarily regional malls and community shopping centers. Through its subsidiary partnerships, it currently owns or has an interest in 247 properties in 37 states.

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jsalcedo
March 9, 2004, 02:43 PM
Yeah there are two Ingram Park Mall Rolling Oaks Mall San Antonio Texas.

No signs though.


The Texas sign requirements are so disfiguring to the asthetics of a building
all but the frothing at the mouth, socks with sandals liberals forgo the posting.

In San Antonio I've seen them try to post a compliant sign but alas they didn't post in both languages, or the color was not right and the letters were not big enough. so I am totally within my rights to ignore it.


The only time I saw a compliant sign was at my wife's doctors building.
Everything was in order...drat... Oops they forgot to post at one side entrance. Lucky me...too bad for them. Good thing the liberal minions are incompetant boobs.

Sadly other states probably have less onerous signage requirements.

spacemanspiff
March 9, 2004, 02:46 PM
i think our 5th avenue mall here in anchorage is a Simons...

never seen any signs on the entrances. their security is weak anyways.

Sportcat
March 9, 2004, 02:47 PM
Never seen a legal no CCW sign in our Anderson, SC mall (Simon operated).

outfieldjack
March 9, 2004, 02:48 PM
If I remember correctly, there is only 1 "Compliant" sign in the whole state of South Carolina. So no matter how many "wrong" signs there are, we can still carry legally!

Sportcat
March 9, 2004, 02:52 PM
That one place in SC is an IHOP in Myrtle Beach.

jhisaac1
March 9, 2004, 03:08 PM
This company owns/manages the Mall of America in Bloomington, Minnesota. They BAN the carry of firearms in the Mall by those with Minnesota carry permits. They operate malls in 37 states. Don't worry. They've all got tactical response teams available to set everything 5 by 5 until the local police show up.

(Sorry. I couldn't resist.)

tiberius
March 9, 2004, 03:16 PM
According to your link, they own the "North East Mall" in Hurst , TX. This mall is fairly close to my house and they do NOT post bans on CHL holders. It seems to be a local thing in one/some of their malls.

Porter Glockwell
March 9, 2004, 03:19 PM
no signage at Utah Trolley square... and even if there were there is no statute backing it.

Porter

Standing Wolf
March 9, 2004, 03:48 PM
I don't ever do business with anti-Second Amendment bigots.

Renegade
March 9, 2004, 04:17 PM
Don't have any of their malls in my part of NC. Cross Creek Mall in Fayetteville does have NO FIREARMS signs posted at the mall entrances. Lucky for me I don't go to the mall, hate the crowds.

Later,

Dave

.45Ruger
March 9, 2004, 04:30 PM
I was at thier Metrocenter mall in Phoenix this weekend and didn't notice any signs, so I carried there.

MBG
March 9, 2004, 04:43 PM
No signs at the Fashion Centre at Pentagon City (Arlington VA), though I haven't been there for about 2 years now.

(With a name like "The Fashion Centre" complete with fancy spelling, you KNOW it's overpriced).

Marty

nico
March 9, 2004, 04:47 PM
No signs at any of the malls I go to.


Oh wait, there's no CCW here :( :banghead:

AZ Jeff
March 9, 2004, 04:50 PM
I gotta ask a question here: at least here in AZ, if one walks into private property marked "no weapons", and is detected carrying a weapon by the owners, the most you can be charged with is tresspassing.

Generally, most stores would handle such an event by asking you to leave the premises with said weapon. Only if you refused would the situation escalate to a criminal charge.

Given that CCW is just that (CONCEALED), how many of us do the equivalent of "dont' ask, dont' tell", and carry (concealed) into places marked "no weapons" or similar?

I know in other states laws may be different, but I have to think it's relatively common here in AZ.

(For AZ residents, please note that I am NOT talking about the laws that prohibit carry into bars, courtrooms, etc. I am talking ONLY about carry into private business establishments, which includes shopping malls.)

Werewolf
March 9, 2004, 04:54 PM
Simon owns 2 malls in Oklahoma City - Heritage Park and Penn Square. Neither has anti-CCW signs on their entrances that I'm aware of. In fact I've only seen one No Firearms sign in Oklahoma since I got my CCW and it is at - of all places - where I work!

Oh - and there's one on the front entrance of Midwest City Memorial Hospital but there aren't any No Firearms signs on any of the other entrances which makes it (in my estimation - which may be wrong) not a legal sign so I carry there anyway.

Samurai Penguin
March 9, 2004, 06:29 PM
This company owns/manages the Mall of America in Bloomington, Minnesota. They BAN the carry of firearms in the Mall by those with Minnesota carry permits.

I don't think they can actually do that. IIRC, there's a clause in the law that says that landlords cannot forbid their tenants/guests from possessing weapons.

Joel R, you wanna get in on this?

Andrew Rothman
March 9, 2004, 06:34 PM
First, under Minnesota law, landlords may NOT ban carry by their tenants or tenants' guests:
17(e) A landlord may not restrict the lawful carry or
possession of firearms by tenants or their guests.(http://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/stats/624/714.html)
It has not been tested in court yet, but the presumption is that this applies to commercial landlords as well as residential ones.

Ergo, the Mall of America has no legal right to post, and such signs may be disregarded.

Second, none of the four "anchor" stores -- Sears, Bloomingdales, Macy's and Nordstroms -- post, nor are their signs between these stores and the mall.

Ergo, AGAIN the mall is not properly posted. Signs may be safely ignored.

Third, in order for a violation of law to occur, this must happen:

1) Properly posted premises.
2) Verbal notification.
3) Compliance demanded.
4) Asked to leave by merchant.
5) Refusal of CCW holder to leave.
6) Arrival of police

Subd. 17. Posting; trespass. (a) A person carrying a
firearm on or about his or her person or clothes under a permit
or otherwise who remains at a private establishment knowing that
the operator of the establishment or its agent has made a
reasonable request that firearms not be brought into the
establishment may be ordered to leave the premises. A person
who fails to leave when so requested is guilty of a petty
misdemeanor. The fine for a first offense must not exceed $25.
Notwithstanding section 609.531, a firearm carried in violation
of this subdivision is not subject to forfeiture.

(1) "Reasonable request" means a request made under the
following circumstances:

(i) the requester has prominently posted a conspicuous sign
at every entrance to the establishment containing the following
language: "(INDICATE IDENTITY OF OPERATOR) BANS GUNS IN THESE
PREMISES."; and

(ii) the requester or its agent personally informs the
person of the posted request and demands compliance.



At this point, a $25 petty misdemeanor trespassing ticket may be issued.

All of the above must be present. As you can see, you have to be told to leave and refuse to do so before a violation occurs, even at a legally posted location.

Truth be told, I always carry -- sign or no sign! Concealed means concealed, and I'm breaking no law!

IF I carry into a legally posted location AND I am notified of the policy AND compliance is demanded AND they notice I am carrying AND they ask me to leave, I certainly will. And no crime has occurred.

Hasn't happened yet; I doubt it will. :)

Gotta love this law. Thanks, MNCCRN!

ny32182
March 9, 2004, 06:52 PM
I've been to all four malls listed between SC and NC, and I've never seen signs at any of them.

Soap
March 9, 2004, 07:20 PM
Must be unique to MN then. None of the Simon malls here post any sort of sign or warning.

Carlos
March 9, 2004, 08:58 PM
Given that CCW is just that (CONCEALED), how many of us do the equivalent of "dont' ask, dont' tell", and carry (concealed) into places marked "no weapons" or similar?

I know I guy who operates that way. :rolleyes:

I'm with the others as far as spending my money at places who disrespect my rights. It just don't happen.

nemesis
March 9, 2004, 09:52 PM
There are a couple of Simon Malls here in the Rio Grande Valley and they definitely do not post prohibitions against the carrying of arms. I was also in a Simon Mall in Tyler recently and there was no weapons posting there either.

ksnecktieman
March 9, 2004, 10:26 PM
renegade? You are not going there anyway? Be an activist. Take a saturday afternoon. Print some flyers on your pc, saying you are not going to purchase anything from the vendors in that mall because of that restriction. Then go to the mall, and hand one to the manager of each store inside, politely. Then find the mall manager, and give him one, and tell him you have passed them to each store:):). Maybe even take some thumb tacks, and stick on on any public bulletin boards there too? Do you have any buddies that will help? Take plenty of flyers, you may want to hand them to some shoppers too.:D

If anyone asks?????? You are doing it "For the children"!!

rust collector
March 9, 2004, 10:54 PM
Mall of America has been the site of a number of gang-banger dustups, and I suspect management is inclined to cool the turf wars a bit by chilling the carrying. Of course, we know thugs and wannabes are astute readers of signs...

jsalcedo
March 9, 2004, 11:25 PM
Our simon malls have signs at the doors posting against colors and offensive slogans on T shirts.

It took me forever to find out what "colors" were.

I went one mall wearing a Binford tools T shirt jeans and a joe camel hat.
The security guard told me they didn't allow colors on the premesis. I asked him what colors? Blue?

He said my hat was a problem...I asked him if Joe Camel was the name of a new gang.. He said I needed to turn the hat around with the bill to the front or leave the mall. :rolleyes:

Don Gwinn
March 9, 2004, 11:26 PM
You might mention that this weekend there was a shooting at a Simon mall, White Oaks Mall in Springfield, IL. There are no CCW permits in Illinois. The shooter's brother was shot last month on the "bad" side of town, so the speculation is that the shooting was revenge-motivated. The shooter and a large group described as two carloads of "kids" confronted the shootee in the middle of the mall, next to (I wouldn't kid you) the giant carousel the kids love to ride. The shootee, maybe seeing what was up, punched the shooter in the face. The shooter drew and fired more or less wildly and hit the shootee in the upper left arm. The shootee will survive.

This happened where there were NO legal handguns, only the one illegally carried by a kid too young to own it legally anyway.

The mall is being widely criticized now (Monday Morning is always easy) for having no real plan in place. Security did next to nothing except, apparently, to warn people not to run out because somebody could get hurt. Store employees wouldn't let people use their fire exits, so people were pushing strollers past the scene to get to main exits. This despite the fact that somebody pulled the fire alarm to summon help!

Apparently Simon's Mall Ninja Force was most concerned with keeping reporters out after the whole thing was over, despite the fact that they re-opened the mall an hour and a half after the shooting!

F4GIB
March 10, 2004, 07:42 PM
^

captlid
March 10, 2004, 09:23 PM
israeli style. I couldnt resist. :evil:

Ryder
March 10, 2004, 10:07 PM
MI has only had shall issue for a few years. I've yet to see a sign at the entrance to any building I've entered. I don't actually look for them, though I would if they were common. They'll not get my business.

There is no legal provision for such signs in our CPL law to my knowledge. Criminal empowerment zones are listed but shopping malls didn't make the list.

I heard (online) of a few places that posted signs when shall issue first went into effect. Don't recall any of those signs lasting more than a week though. They were sensitive to our organized declarations.

Ryder
March 10, 2004, 10:16 PM
You can check your areas here:

http://www.simon.com/find_mall/

ceetee
March 11, 2004, 10:04 AM
I've been to four of the malls listed in Florida, and I've seen no signs. Of course I don't think any signs like that would have any legal standing here, either. I may be wrong (again...).

Skunkabilly
March 11, 2004, 10:24 AM
They contacted me to do security for their malls. As fearsome I am with my Karambit, I still prefer my 9mm.

http://www.skunkabilly.com/images/ninjavanish.gif

abento
August 15, 2011, 11:05 AM
Liberty Tree Mall in massachusetts has it in their "conduct rules" on the door. "No weapons, this includes firearms knives and chemical sprays, or any other object that can hurt a mall patron, are allowed on simon mall property."....and they wonder why im not renewing my lease with them....I own a business in this mall, and i was escorted from the premises and told to "lock my gun in a locked case unloaded in my vehicle" by the way i posses a class A Large Capacity unrestricted LTC in ma. the hardest obtainable license in the state.

Fishslayer
August 15, 2011, 02:58 PM
Not a problem. Gecko_45 is watching... waiting... ready to spring into action at a nanosecond nnotice...

oneounceload
August 15, 2011, 03:28 PM
If you do not like their politics, don't go there, but I hope that means you are also boycotting all things from China, including their guns.

9mmepiphany
August 15, 2011, 04:20 PM
Wouldn't it have been better to start a new thread than to post on one that is over 7 years old?

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