PTSD - Chris Kyle shooting.


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Mp7
February 4, 2013, 06:10 AM
... some of you, especially the Vets
will not be happy to even think about this.

BUT, with the unbearable number of PTSD affected
vets returning from warzones - would it not be
reasonable, to make it mandatory for every
returner to get psychological assistance,
and maybe even have his RKBA revoked,
until mental stability is determined?


Way too many PTSD affected vets harm themselves
or others, lately.

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Shuler13
February 4, 2013, 06:19 AM
I see where you are coming from but I do not think it is wise. I think education to the returning vets and their families (warning signs, symptoms, assistance) might be more appropriate. Perhaps other programs would be of help, but to say on week you can be required to carry daily, then remove that option all together "for your own protection" would be an insult.

Ragnar Danneskjold
February 4, 2013, 06:30 AM
NO. That absolutely would not be reasonable. Revoke Second Amendments rights for being a deployed military member? Do you realize the justifiable can of anger that would open?

And if you really care about vets at all, you would want those with PTSD to actually get treatment right? Well guess what. They already interview us after we get back from overseas for mental issues. Under the threat of losing rights, most if not all of us would just lie. Then not only are you not stopping anyone you think might be a problem, you're keeping all vets from getting help. Sorry, this is a monstrously terrible idea.

Evergreen
February 4, 2013, 06:54 AM
Veterans deserve respect, as screwed up as they may be when they come back or not. Revoking their 2A rights and testing to see if they can be an equal citizen to the rest of us because of their service, is hardly treating them with respect.

Veterans have saved the lives of more people in this country than the few rare incidents of a nutjob killing people. Don't buy into media propaganda so easily. If it wasn't for veterans, you wouldn't have any 2A rights. Give them the benefit of the doubt.

There is such a thing as honor. We seem to lack that in our modern society, sadly. No wonder so many bad things happen.

Mp7
February 4, 2013, 07:02 AM
I realize this is very emotional.

But is it not time to set up "check-out" camps
for returning vets? Basically a i.e 8 week quarantine/vacation
for vets to receive some training, do sports, relax and be assessed.

There are way more suicidal casualties than combat, nowadays.
Shouldnt the same amount of money be invested
into mental-protection .. as is invested into armour, weapons and so on?

With the number of "lost wars" and the number of involved personell
increasing ... the US is creating a problem for years to come.

The cost of not tackling this will be way higher than tackling it now .....

vaupet
February 4, 2013, 07:03 AM
Those who weren't there can't imagine what these people have seen. I certainly can't.
Being from Belgium, battleground of the big powers (Waterloo, Ypres, Bulge,..) I have known in my circle people who fought.
Friends of mine have been in recent conflicts (yugoslavia, congo, rwanda, lebanon, afghanistan, mali).
The main thing they have in common is , they don't like to talk about it.

I think everyone who has been in a war zone deserves proper help, not only on return but also while deployed. ( suicide rates are appaling in the military)

The returning vets need to have proper jobs and income, and meet with love and respect, to regain their believe in human kindness, after the horrors they have witnessed.

Taking rights away isn't going to work.

Plan2Live
February 4, 2013, 07:04 AM
Two points;

1) So what you are saying is we can trust a soldier with PTSD to carry weapons of war in a foreign country but we can't trust them with civilian firearms back in the USA?

2) Once the left is successful at tying "mental health" to background checks it will only be a matter of time before many, many shooters have their RKBA restricted for nominal "mental disorders". OCD, that's a mental disorder, right? How about smoking? You must have a mental disorder to voluntarily do something we all know will kill you. Angry during a divorce? Mental disorder. Etc., etc., etc. This is a very slippery slope yet it is being embraced almost across the board.

Evergreen
February 4, 2013, 07:09 AM
Maybe police officers shouldn't be allowed to have guns either as many of them have PTSD and have had many bad encounters in their profession? Can anyone imagine what cops in the inner city Philadelphia, Baltimore or Compton PD go through on a daily basis? I am not hearing anyone calling to disarm them, if anything they have more rights than your average citizen.

I have always said the government's primary concern for disarming veterans is that they would be the people whom they would face the greatest opposition if the government decided to make war with its own citizenry. We are talking government takeover, dictatorship, etc. It seems all crooked governments do what they can to deplete the rights of its citizens to empower themselves, especially people they feel are a greater threat to their power than others.

Mp7
February 4, 2013, 07:34 AM
The argument "they carry guns in a warzone, why shouldnt they at home"
and "should police not be allowed to carry weapons" are not arguments.

1. Soldiers are in warzones ... well to kill people.
( Army-PR will voice that differently and talk about bringing freedom, but that`s what they do)
2. What a LEO sees on duty varies a great deal compared the Hindukush
or Iraq.


Let`s say one needs tranqilizers for a longer period of time after
a tour of duty - to fight restlessness or insomnia or whatever,
should that not be comparable to a DUI?

(And yes, i believe at least 10% of the population are not fit to drive at all,
without endangerin others due to physical or mental health reasons)

jumperdoc
February 4, 2013, 08:03 AM
Iím a longtime lurker, but felt I had to post on this one.

A little background: I left the military in 2008 after almost eight years of service and three combat tours. I now do overseas PSD work. My coworkers are for the most part combat veterans. PTSD (with todayís very loose definition) is probably almost universal. We are all armed 24 hours a day and provide protection for high ranking government officials. This has been going on for years without incident.

The top three symptoms of PTSD: Memory loss, depression and substance (usually alcohol) abuse. These are usually the only symptoms if any are seen at all. Violent behavior isnít a commonly seen symptom. Anybody that has been in a situation where fear of death or injury occurred could have PTSD. Every year millions of people experience these stimuli without the prerequisites of dog tags and boots. Should we require the same evaluations/mandatory training for everyone thatís been in a car wreck or for the millions of people that witnessed the September 11th attacks first hand?

We have had wars since the beginning of time. Young men (and now women) have been returning from war since the beginning of time. Somehow I think viewing combat veterans with fear and suspicion is a new phenomenon. I had some very interesting experiences at social events after people found out that I was a combat veteran. Tone of voice and mannerisms would change almost like they were trying to deal with an unpredictable wild animal that could snap at any moment. I was confused at first until it dawned on me that these people had never met a combat veteran and probably got all of their perceived understanding from the media and movies. I guess this is unfortunate, but expected with our current all volunteer military.

Itís sad that when a graduate student or professor perpetrates a mass shooting (over represented in the statistics) nobody is calling for mandatory screening and training in academia, but when a veteran shoots someone we are all obviously ticking time bombs and need to be watched. What is it about our culture that loves military video games and airsoft-style hobbies, but views combat veterans with fear and loathing?

Sorry if this came off as a rant. In summary: I disagree with combat veterans being presumed unstable until proven sane.

alsaqr
February 4, 2013, 08:26 AM
But is it not time to set up "check-out" camps
for returning vets? Basically a i.e 8 week quarantine/vacation
for vets to receive some training, do sports, relax and be assessed.

Yep, lets punish those who volunteer to fight in this countrys wars. A temporary 'leper colony" for returning combat vets is not the answer!!!

Mp7
February 4, 2013, 08:27 AM
insight appreciated!

And of course it's terrible to be put under general perception
like that.


My thoughts were more directed at the issue of providing ample
offers for help. As in the US physical and mental healthcare
seem to be on 3rd world levels almost.

I find it shameful to spend so much money on ordnance
and so little on rebuilding the razed countries - and caring
for the soldiers who risked their health.

Hacker15E
February 4, 2013, 08:40 AM
BUT, with the unbearable number of PTSD affected
vets returning from warzones - would it not be
reasonable, to make it mandatory for every
returner to get psychological assistance,

There are all ready significant health and mental health screenings required after every deployment.

I -- like everyone else -- have had to go speak to a psychologist every time before I was allowed to go on post-deployment leave.

rbernie
February 4, 2013, 08:44 AM
I find it shameful to spend so much money on ordnance
and so little on rebuilding the razed countries - and caring
for the soldiers who risked their health.
While I'll agree with you with regard to the situation of veterans affairs, I also feel compelled to point out that the US spent far more in OEF on stabilization and rebuilding than was spent in OIF/OEF in 'razing'.

More to the point, the Hamburg that you know was largely rebuilt with US dollars. Let's just not go there, OK?

PRM
February 4, 2013, 08:58 AM
Not diminishing the fact that this was bad. But, lets not make this something its not before all the facts come out. The guy may have had PTSD and/or it may have had nothing to do with it at all. It's not as simple as saying someone has had PTSD, so that's an excuse for everything they do. The anti-gun media has been very quick to push this out there. They were reporting it was PTSD related the day it happened, before, the suspect was ever taken into custody.

Almost as bad as the AR Lanza was supposed to have used to shoot his mother in the class room at Sandy Hook. The media is notorious about pushing their left wing agenda, skewing the facts on gun control issues is not an issue with them...

Mp7
February 4, 2013, 08:58 AM
@rbernie


this is off, but can u link some numbers that put that relation
anywhere higher than 1:10? (and that is optimistic IMHO)

(Same with the rebuilding here many mooncycles ago.
Just quoting that u heard that many times,
does not make it a relevant fact. Yes i do know the
marshal plan.)

Yes you are the mod, and responsible for keeping things highroad.
But "Let`s not go there ok" is not an objective argument, when not supported
with anything but a deep voice :)

Ragnar Danneskjold
February 4, 2013, 09:03 AM
Well, to be fair, as long as we're talking about objective arguments and supporting things...you were the one who made the initial "...and so little on rebuilding..." claim. I would say that calls for some objective supporting too.

Mp7
February 4, 2013, 09:19 AM
...hmmpf... True.

So we live in an age still, where objective numbers
on something as big as this - cannot be had.

(5mins of google-fu only got me to websites that
would be either considered nutjobteaparty or nutjobliberal - thus not quoteworthy)

We do need more of that transparency. Obviously.

rbernie
February 4, 2013, 09:23 AM
this is off, but can u link some numbers that put that relation
anywhere higher than 1:10? (and that is optimistic IMHO)

(Same with the rebuilding here many mooncycles ago.
Just quoting that u heard that many times,
does not make it a relevant fact. Yes i do know the
marshal plan.)

Actually, I don't think that you DO actually 'know the Marshall Plan'. The US is about the only nation out there that will defeat a country when needed and then turn around and spend massive internal resources to rebuild that same country. If you want to have an opinion on the topic, then you would be well served to have conducted actual research on the amount of money spent (relative to GDP, for example) over time in both the war effort and then the reconstruction effort.

If you want to understand how the US has funded our operations in the Middle East, then you need to Google the phrase 'Overseas Contingency Funding'. The US has spent over a trillion dollars on OCO (funding above/beyond the baseline military budget) in Iraq/AFG over the last decade, and the GAO has done a series of viewable audits to demonstrate exactly what is being funded on OCO.

For example, the 2010 OCO budget for Iraqi/AFG stability ops was $130B USD against a base US DoD budget request of $534B (meaning that it's about 25% of the base budget). Of that $130B, $18B was used directly for reconstitution efforts and the remaining were used for Operational efforts (presence and stability). None of that money was used for 'razing'.

Silly rabbit.

Mp7
February 4, 2013, 09:41 AM
Well now it gets patriotic. So lets quit it here.

We`d both be to emotional to concentrate on sharpening defintions i think.


The "defeating a country when needed" does apply to my homecountry
in WW2. And i'm thankful for that.



(rest deleted, in order to stay highroad)

Gordon_Freeman
February 4, 2013, 09:45 AM
I think we need eye for an eye justice for murderers. That would go a long way to prevent these scumbags from killing in the first place. Now the scumbags get to live in a prison with free housing, meals, healthcare, and entertainment for the rest of their lives.

mbt2001
February 4, 2013, 09:46 AM
BUT, with the unbearable number of PTSD affected
vets returning from warzones - would it not be
reasonable, to make it mandatory for every
returner to get psychological assistance,
and maybe even have his RKBA revoked,
until mental stability is determined?

It is not an RKBA issue. The pentagon, the military, and we the people should be ashamed of the way our soldiers are being treated. We do not give them the mindset they need to help deal with wartime scenarios, they get damaged, they come home to parades (if they are really lucky), but no help. We need to develop a program for winding up service that helps them get the help they need and effectively re-integrate.

Imagine, sitting at a bar with buddies. the noise makes you uncomfortable at first, but you just grin and bear it. Someone yells to a friend and it sets your heart racing... You start sweating, you can't concentrate, your adrenaline starts flowing, the noise won't stop, you don't know where you are, the noise... It has to stop, just for a second, we are all in danger, just stop!!! bang...

bikerdoc
February 4, 2013, 09:48 AM
MP7, you are way off base and in way over your head.

lobo9er
February 4, 2013, 09:49 AM
In my opinion the OP well heart maybe in right place is suggesting something that would set a terrible precedent. Unfortunately there those who would jump at signing similar legislation I believe.

Arkansas Paul
February 4, 2013, 09:49 AM
and maybe even have his RKBA revoked,
until mental stability is determined?

Absolutely not.
The fallacy of this thinking is the same as general gun control. You're still restricting the many for the evil actions of the few. Same premise.

Mp7
February 4, 2013, 09:51 AM
@Gordon

Not a single statistic shows that death penalties
do anything to prevent murder.

Ragnar Danneskjold
February 4, 2013, 09:53 AM
Sure they do. Not a single criminal who has been executed has ever gone on to murder again.

mbt2001
February 4, 2013, 09:53 AM
Not a single statistic shows that death penalties
do anything to prevent murder.

lets focus on the topic, instead of getting off on weird discussions that just clog up the board.

Mp7
February 4, 2013, 10:03 AM
@bikerdoc

Seems too me the other way round
with some participants.

So we should leave it there before
quality of interaction drops further.

Robert
February 4, 2013, 10:39 AM
While I agree that we need to have the best treatment possible available for returning vets I do not agree that we need to strip them of their rights. There is a lot of work that needs to be done in the mental health field, but that falls outside the scope of THR.

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