357 sig vs 40 S&W water jug test


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FloriDave
February 4, 2013, 01:47 PM
Something I've wanted to do for a long time and have never taken the time to do it, shoot some jugs full of water and recover the bullets. I'm not posting this to start arguments between the two calibers, personally I have both, shoot both quite a bit and reload for both of them, ( and many others).

My main CC is a Glock 27, with a 357sig barrel and Speer Gold Dot 125gr(54234). I shoot both 357 and 40 from this gun almost every trip to the range, I love it. Also shoot 22 with a Advantage Auto conversion.

The self defense round I had settled on in 40 cal before getting the 357 sig barrel was Federal Premium Tactical HST 180gr(P40HTS1)
Today I decided to shoot them both into milk jugs full of water to see how they compared.

The 40 was captured in the 3rd jug, it dented the opposite side, but was not able to exit that jug.
The 357sig penetrated farther going into the 4th jug, and had quite a bit more initial 'shock' in the first jug. That was my observation when shooting, that it was a more explosive impact, the top was torn completely off the jug.

BUT check out that Federal HST 40! What a cool bullet, I've seen plenty of pictures of this, but it's neat to handle it. The ridged on each pedal are sharp, like 6 little blades. MUCH more impressive looking than the GoldDot, though I have to remind myself looking at it that it's going to stop long before the 357 round does.

This is 'for entertainment purposes only', as far as I'm concerned, and is just a fun comparison of how the two cartridges behaved. Enjoy!

Pics are below... In all pictures, both bullets and jugs, the 40 is on the left, the 357sig is on the right.


http://www.daveharper.com/Webpics/Guns/40_357/357_40_bullet1.jpg

http://www.daveharper.com/Webpics/Guns/40_357/357_40_bullet2.jpg

This is the 1st jug. 357 sig just exploded the jug, top torn off, etc.
http://www.daveharper.com/Webpics/Guns/40_357/357_40_Jug1.jpg

2nd jug is similar for both, the 357 sig jug is more damaged but not by a lot.
http://www.daveharper.com/Webpics/Guns/40_357/357_40_Jug2.jpg

Jug 3 has a simple entry and exit hole for the 357 sig. The 40 has an entry and dent on the back where it tried to exit but couldn't.
http://www.daveharper.com/Webpics/Guns/40_357/357_40_Jug3.jpg

4th jug that the 357 made it to had a simple entry hole.
http://www.daveharper.com/Webpics/Guns/40_357/357_40_Jug4.jpg

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RedAlert
February 4, 2013, 03:04 PM
Nicely done. Good photos. I too, have both calibers, but mine are in a SIG P229.

481
February 4, 2013, 05:36 PM
Thanks for posting.

The HST is a very good JHP and one of my favorite SD rounds in any caliber.

llwsgn
February 4, 2013, 06:40 PM
Nice. Did you weigh them after?

Skribs
February 4, 2013, 06:50 PM
The experiment-oriented person inside my head wants two more side-by-side tests...one with both HST, and one with both Gold Dot. The Gold Dot seemed to go a bit further, but that HST just looks nasty.

FloriDave
February 4, 2013, 07:26 PM
I didn't weigh them, I can do that. I think the both are going to be pretty much full weight, they both look like they're intact and performed just as designed, and I didn't have any fragments in the jugs.

I know what you mean Skribs, now that I've done this, and have a bunch more jugs, I'd like to try it with some other rounds too, and yes I have both rounds sitting out on the counter and keep looking at that HST and thinking the damage that would be doing as it moved along.

2zulu1
February 5, 2013, 01:17 PM
It's always nice to see the explosiveness of different bullet designs. Do you have the capability of using video for your tests and observing frame by frame impact progression?

Thanks for sharing. :)

Skribs
February 5, 2013, 05:30 PM
Of course, the HST would do a lot more damage on what it passes through, but that gold dot would go deeper and potentially damage something that the HST does not. That's why there's choices!...because you never know which one would be better.

CB900F
February 5, 2013, 07:16 PM
Fella's;

How thick is a human being? Seems to me the .40 gets to the far side, expends all it's energy in the target medium, and pretty much stops being a threat to something beyond the target. That's a winner in my opinion.

900F

SDGlock23
February 5, 2013, 08:01 PM
The 180gr HST is probably my favorite factory .40 load.

Skribs
February 6, 2013, 10:58 AM
CB900F, water jugs are a poor representation of a human target. Also, if you'll look at the FBI studies following the Miami shootout, they say that while a straight shot from 12:00 into the torso of a target doesn't yield a very thick target, hitting the target at an angle or through obstructions (such as if their arms are raised because they're shooting at you), you would be better served by more penetration.

CB900F
February 6, 2013, 12:04 PM
Skribs;

Sorry, no sale on your reasoning. Although the OP didn't give us the dimensions of the jugs he used, eight inches is a pretty good number to use. And what is the human body? Essentially a bag of liquid held up by the calciform sticks inside, no?

I like dumping all the bullet's energy in the target medium without excess penetration. And, in a self-defense situation, I'm double-tapping anyway. Also, I'm shooting until the threat ceases to be a threat. I'll take my chances with my methods thenkewveddymuch. Overpenetration tends to enable lawyer types, something I'm devoutly against.

900F

Skribs
February 6, 2013, 12:08 PM
Misses are worse than overpenetration for lawsuits. My reasoning is based on the fact that there were shots fired during the Miami shootout that failed to stop because they did not travel far enough when entering the target at oblique angles. So I want a good 12 inches of penetration.

tipoc
February 6, 2013, 08:56 PM
Would be interesting to see the 155-165 gr. 40 S&W compared to the 125 gr. Sig load.

tipoc

Spike_akers
February 6, 2013, 09:07 PM
Skribs;

Sorry, no sale on your reasoning. Although the OP didn't give us the dimensions of the jugs he used, eight inches is a pretty good number to use. And what is the human body? Essentially a bag of liquid held up by the calciform sticks inside, no?

I like dumping all the bullet's energy in the target medium without excess penetration. And, in a self-defense situation, I'm double-tapping anyway. Also, I'm shooting until the threat ceases to be a threat. I'll take my chances with my methods thenkewveddymuch. Overpenetration tends to enable lawyer types, something I'm devoutly against.

900F
this is why i wont carry 9mm. they have considerably more penetration then other rounds, but when you look at ballistics they do less damage in the medium, where as the .357 sig (one of my favorite rounds outside of the .45acp) doesnt penetrate as deep, but causes the same amount of damage in the medium as the .45... id rather have the stopping power vs the penetration... and over penetration has been used by many lawyers, almost as much as misses... so i completely agree with you.

CB900F
February 6, 2013, 10:00 PM
Fella's;

One other thing we might want to remember is that the referenced Miami FBI gun battle was in 1986. Pushing 27 years ago now. The state of the art in factory self-defense ammunition has changed. I would postulate that conclusions drawn from that data may not be valid in today's enviroment.

900F

Deer_Freak
February 6, 2013, 11:57 PM
I would try the test with a board in front of the jugs. A board will test the integrity of each bullet. It was a decent test. Thank you for sharing the results of your test with all of us.

Skribs
February 7, 2013, 02:13 AM
Spike, every gel test I've seen with similar rounds has the 9mm penetrating less than .40 or .45. In this test the .357 went farther. Can you back up your claim that 9mm penetrates deeper?

CB900F, you are correct. However, the miami study came out with a set of parameters for modern bullet design. Some people drew different conclusions from the study (some people say 12" exactly is best, some say 12 is the minimum, some say 8-12, some say 18+, etc).

Spike_akers
February 7, 2013, 02:49 AM
Spike, every gel test I've seen with similar rounds has the 9mm penetrating less than .40 or .45. In this test the .357 went farther. Can you back up your claim that 9mm penetrates deeper?

CB900F, you are correct. However, the miami study came out with a set of parameters for modern bullet design. Some people drew different conclusions from the study (some people say 12" exactly is best, some say 12 is the minimum, some say 8-12, some say 18+, etc).
ballistics gel. i've done my own tests but unfortunately dont have pictures as it was just for my own knowledge rather then sharing results. and when shooting a 14" block of gel the .45 and .357 typically stop right after the 12" mark, where as the 9mm would continue through into stacked newspaper behind it. whenever i have the time i'll do the test again, and post my own pics, however, this time i will have to use something grabbed from the interwebs. it doesnt support fully what i have said, but you will notice the penetration on the 9mm is slightly deeper than the rest. i will post my own results as soon as i have time to do it again... i hate when i cant give my own results after stating something.. so i'll try and get to this as soon as possible before the thread dies...http://imageshack.us/a/img6/8836/5owcwz.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/6/5owcwz.jpg/)

TarDevil
February 7, 2013, 07:13 AM
Spike, the picture you posted is representative of nearly every credible gel test I've seen and does nothing to support your previous post. Now, swap those 9mm billets with FMJs and your story is plausable.

Spike_akers
February 7, 2013, 01:39 PM
Spike, the picture you posted is representative of nearly every credible gel test I've seen and does nothing to support your previous post. Now, swap those 9mm billets with FMJs and your story is plausable.
i was having trouble finding picks of hardball. that compared all 3 rounds..... as soon as i have time, i will post my own. as soon as i have time to do this again. I really wish I had a highspeed camera to show the secondary and primary wound tracts, if you find data like in the above pic (which are freeze frame secondary tracts, youll find that the 9mm in FMJ will have much less damage in the medium and travel through the gel (depending on block size and gel consistency) and the 45 will have a much larger tract (its a bigger bullet) but stop earlier on the gel. It might be a week or two before I have the time to do this again. But I'm gonna do my best to get it up here (have to corroborate with the others who took part in the first one, so that guns and ammo remain constant)

rbernie
February 7, 2013, 01:53 PM
And what is the human body? Essentially a bag of liquid held up by the calciform sticks inside, no?

In the case of the human torso, the calciform sticks are on the outside and seem to have a nasty tendency to clog hollow points and cause other unpredictable terminal behaviors.

Skribs
February 7, 2013, 03:01 PM
Spike, as TarDevel said, the picture you posted is consistent with what I've seen for JHP testing. FMJ, you are right, the 9mm will go further than anything but .357 sig. In the picture you linked, the 124-gr 9mm round was the shallowest penetrating round, and the 147-grain was passed by the 180-grain .40. All of the rounds appear to be within an inch of each other, though, so I'd hardly say one is a severe liability over another.

Spike_akers
February 7, 2013, 07:33 PM
Spike, as TarDevel said, the picture you posted is consistent with what I've seen for JHP testing. FMJ, you are right, the 9mm will go further than anything but .357 sig. In the picture you linked, the 124-gr 9mm round was the shallowest penetrating round, and the 147-grain was passed by the 180-grain .40. All of the rounds appear to be within an inch of each other, though, so I'd hardly say one is a severe liability over another.
i know i couldnt find any that showed all three in FMJ, but it shows the size difference in the medium which is the reason i love the .357 sig, and .45...

CB900F
February 7, 2013, 08:48 PM
Fella's;

And just what does the rib cage encircle? Why the most essential organs in the human body, brain excepted. So if the HP does get plugged while passing through a rib, there's still the broken rib, the shattered rib fragments, and a bullet, creating havoc with whatever lies behind. Most of what lies behind are the lungs, the liver, and the heart, plus major blood vessels and nerves, not to mention the spine backing everything up. That plugged bullet would then tend to impact another rib somewhat opposite its entry point. A rib fracture near the spine can be immediately incapacitating. Don't believe me? Ask a combat medic.

Any torso hit has the possibility of creating a fatal wound. First shot placement greatly enhances the odds of a OSS. But, a properly placed double tap is placing something close to 750 foot pounds of violently upsetting energy in the target medium at a range of under 25 yards using the .40 S&W. That's why it's taught as standard procedure in most combat pistol training schools.

In other words, I'm not terribly concerned if the HP plugs or not. Better if not without question, but the job gets done in any case if you use proper procedure.

900F

CDW4ME
February 7, 2013, 09:15 PM
Either would be acceptable for SD.

481
February 9, 2013, 11:37 PM
CB900F, water jugs are a poor representation of a human target.

Hey, Skribs, been a while... :)

While it is true that water is not identical to the human anatomy, it seems that many authorities in the field (Roberts, Fackler, Schwartz, MacPherson, Peters, various forensics labs, etc...) state that good ol' H2O is actually a very good tissue simulant matching identically the results produced in calibrated gel since it too, is very close to the average density of our bodies and possesses a similar internal speed of sound.

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