[N3rday]

Just wondering...what does it mean when a cartridge has a dash and then another number?

Examples are 30-06 and 7mm-08

I could probably go my entire life without ever knowing this but I was just curious.

edited to add: oh, forgot .30-30!

[Black Snowman]

Small number, like the -06 and -08 are normaly the last 2 digits of the year it was introduced (IE 1906, 1908).
Larger numbers like .30-30 and .45-70 are rounds developed from black powder cartridges where the 30 and 70 were the grains of black powder used for the round.

[Hkmp5sd]

The Arcane World of Cartridge Designations (http://www.jouster.com/articles30m1/Ballistics/cases.html)

[sumpnz]

Minor point, correct me if I'm wrong, but the -08 in the case of the 7mm-08 designates that it is a 7mm cartridge based on a necked down .308 case, not the year 1908.

The .25-06, similarly is designated as such because it's a .25 cal based on the .30-06 necked down to .257".

Of course, though, the .30-06 is so named because it's a .30 cal developed in 1906.

Hope this adds to the confusion :neener: .

[iamkris]

Just to be more arcane, .30-06 is a 30 cal cartridge first introduced in 1906 but a 7mm-08 indicates that it is a 7mm bullet in a cartridge based on the .308 Winchester (or the 7.62 NATO or 7.62x51mm or the T65 or the...)

Edited to add: Dang it, a few minutes too late on the reply:p

[Jim K]

To further mystify and amuse the public, U.S. cartridges based on older cartridges are often designated with the new caliber first and the original name (or part of it) last. Examples are noted above, like .25-'06 and 7mm-08.

But the British reversed the order. So a .400/350 is a .400 Purdey case necked down to .35 caliber and a .375/303 is a .375 case necked to .303.

Then we have the metric system designation, which is the diameter of the bullet and the case length in millimeters, sometimes with an additional letter or letters. Examples are the 8x57, which we know as the 8mm Mauser, and the 9x19, or 9mm Luger. The letter R means rimmed, so the old Russian rifle cartridge is the 7.62x54R. The 8x57 has other letters. In 8x57j, the j means Infantry (the German J and I were the same). 8x57js is the same cartridge, but with a larger diameter bullet; 8x57jr or jrs indicates the rimmed versions.

Some U.S. cartridges were popular in Europe and were given metric designations. The .30-'06 is the 7.62x63, and the .30-30 is the 7.62x51R.
(The 7.62x51 is the 7.62 NATO, or .308 Winchester.)

Jim

[N3rday]

Ya know, I saw your post about how the 30-06 is named that because of the year it was made, 1906.

However, I thought you were pulling that out of your you-know-where because our wwII sniper rifle, the Springfield in 30-06, was model of 1903, and the gun chambered for the round couldn't have existed 3 year before the round was invented!

However, I looked it up and you were right. Check this out:

It was originally designated the "Ball Cartridge, caliber .30, Model of 1906." The great Springfield rifle was just three years old, and had been chambered to a very similar cartridge firing a 220-grain round-nose bullet at 2300 feet per second. The 1906 version has a case neck shortened by .007 inch. The few remaining rifles chambered for the original ".30-03" will therefore chamber the shorter .30-06 rounds, but the reverse is not always so.

:neener: <------- you experts
:uhoh: <------- me

[Frohickey]

There is no standard way to decipher how cartridges are named.

Each has its own history, and when you read up on the history of the cartridge, you eventually figure out why its called what its called.

I still want to know why people call it 45 Long Colt. ;)

[N3rday]

ahh, I see;)

[Vern Humphrey]

Okay -- you asked for it.

There are two "standard" methods of designating a cartrige. The first is the OLD American Blackpowder standard. In that system, there are two (and sometimes three) numbers used, such as .45-70-405.

That tells you it uses a .45 caliber bullet, 70 grains of black powder, and the bullet weights 405 grains. In practice, the third number (the weight of the bullet) was often dropped.

That system lasted a bit into the smokless powder era -- the .30-30 and .30-40 were both smokeless cartridges, and held about 30 and 40 grains of smokeless powder, respectively.

The system was finally dropped, because there are so many kinds of smokeless powder, with different burning characteristics that it provided little useful information.

The second such system is metric -- the first number is the caliber in millimeters, the second is the length of the case in millimeters. Example: the cartrige WE call the .30-06 is the 7.62X63mm.

Other nomenclauture is all over the map. Examples:

.250-3000 -- a .25 caliber, and the first factory round with a muzzle velocity of 3,000 feet per second.

.30-06 -- developed by the US Army in 1906, and so called to distinguish it from a .30 caliber round developed in '03 and one developed in 1892 (the .30-03 and .30-40, respectively.)

7mm-08. This sort of (but not quite) follows "wildcat" tradition, which puts the actual caliber first, followed by the original caliber from which the case is formed. The 7mm-08 is essentially the .308 necked down to 7mm. Another example would be the .25-06. That's the .30-06 necked down to take a .25 caliber bullet.

.30-378. This is the .378 Weatherby necked down to .30 caliber -- a real screamer of a .30 caliber. This follows the wildcat tradition of giving the CURRENT caliber followed by the caliber from which is was formed. the British use the OPPOSITE tradition -- for example, .577-450. That's the old .577 case necked down to .450.

Is everybody thoroughly confused now? I know I am.

;)

[Gewehr98]

I still want to know why people call it 45 Long Colt.

Because, for at least one historical blink of time, there was a .45 Short Colt. It was even offered in boxes labeled as such. Here's a box of the stuff:

http://mauser98.com/shrtclt.jpg


A discussion here, about halfway down the second page:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=110827&highlight=.45+short+colt

Another history, referring to the Short Colt:

http://www.sixguns.com/range/45coltdw.htm

And Fiocchi still offers the ammo for one version:

http://www.fiocchiusa.com/specialty.htm

[Jim K]

That .45 Government (aka .45 Colt Government or .45 S&W Schofield) was never called a ".45 Short Colt", at least officially. It was made as a common cartridge for use in both service revolvers, the Colt Model 1873 (SAA) and the S&W Schofield. The rim is small enough to load six shots in the Colt, yet the round is short enough to fit the shorter S&W cylinder.

There were two other .45 cartridges that were used in Colt revolvers in U.S. service. The first was a short round, the .45 cartridge, Model 1906, which was developed by Frankford as an experimental but reportedly saw some use in the Philippines in Colt DA revolvers.

The second was the .45 caliber cartridge, Model of 1909, which was issued with the Model 1909 service revolver (Colt New Service in civilian life). The latter, though, cannot be called "short" since it is the same length as the .45 Colt. Since the SAA was obsolete by that time, both cartridges had conventional size rims. They will fire in a .45 SAA revolver, but only three can be loaded because of the larger rim.

Regardless of those "short" .45 cartridges, I suspect most people use the term ".45 Long Colt" to distinguish the .45 Colt from the .45 ACP.

Jim

[Gewehr98]

Was that the .45 Colt Government came out as a later, separate design from the .45 S&W Schofield, in an effort to have an issued round that would function in both the Schofield and Colt SAA revolvers. Somewhere on the web and in my archives, there's a picture that shows a .45 S&W Schofield round, a .45 Colt Government round, and a .45 Colt (aka Long Colt) round side by side. So I wouldn't necessarily call it the same as the .45 S&W Schofield.

[Mike Irwin]

You know, I've gotten so sick of the entire argument about .45 Colt vs .45 Long Colt that it's not even funny.

Why is it that this cartridge, and this cartridge alone, has people coming out of the woodwork screaming and crying if one DARES call it the .45 Long Colt?

If someone says .38 Special, .38 S&W Special, or .38 Colt Special, no one bats an eye. Same with 9mm Parabellum, 9mm Luger, 9x19, 9mm NATO, etc.

There are dozens, if not hundreds, of cartridges on the market today that have multiple, valid nomenclatures, and yet only this one cartridge induces people to writhing intestines, puking green soup, and heads spinning 360 deg. all while screeching in tongues "NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO! BEGONE EVIL REVISIONIST NOMENCLATURE!"

OK, so maybe it's not quite as bad as that.

But Jesus, it's close.

[Vern Humphrey]

Quote:
------------------------------------------
Why is it that this cartridge, and this cartridge alone, has people coming out of the woodwork screaming and crying if one DARES call it the .45 Long Colt?
---------------------------------------------

Why is it a mortal sin to call the .45 Colt the ".45 Long Colt," but perfectly acceptable to call the .30 WCF the ".30-30?"

Winchester refused to call it the .30-30 for almost 90 years, and finally gave in.