The myth of knockdown power continues...


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backbencher
February 5, 2013, 01:15 AM
So - 1 cocky soldier posits the following:

Given a M9 pistol, a 9x19mm NATO ball round, & a SAPI armor plate in a vest, said round discharged into the vest will knock the wearer down.

We want it to be so, therefore it must be so, hang the physics!

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Dr.Rob
February 5, 2013, 01:16 AM
There's plenty of video out there to debunk this.

mrvco
February 5, 2013, 01:24 AM
~ 13 Newton Seconds

JohnKSa
February 5, 2013, 01:38 AM
Here's a post I made on another forum.

http://www.therallypoint.org/forum/index.php/topic,6290.0.html

If a 50BMG rifle can't fling a crash test dummy with an armor plate in its chest backwards, what is a 9mm going to be able to do?

Jorg Nysgerrig
February 5, 2013, 01:43 AM
what is a 9mm going to be able to do?
Depends if is +P+ or not.

backbencher
February 5, 2013, 01:53 AM
Given a 160 lb human being is more than 1,000,000 grains, our good soldier obviously can't be bothered w/ math. Unfortunately, he's an artilleryman...

Fast Frank
February 5, 2013, 02:20 AM
I think it's more about semantics than anything else.

Yeah, we have all seen a pistol round knock down a bowling pin. It's just about all a pistol round can do- anything much bigger than a bowling pin stands a good chance of absorbing the hit and staying upright.

But going back to the vest wearing man and the nine millimeter...

I have experimented with a "Timed Out" vest before. (They have an expiration date)

After shooting it with everything from a .22lr up to .44mag, I can tell you that it does in fact stop the bullets from penetrating.

I can also tell you that it knocks the crap out of whatever is behind the vest.

I know that it's not scientific, but I tried to duplicate the dent left in a pine board that was behind the vest when it got shot with .45acp.

It turns out that smacking the board with the ball end of a 16 ounce ball peen hammer with everything I can put behind it pretty much makes the same kind of dent in the wood that the .45 leaves behind the vest. Now, I'm not Thor or anything like that, but I don't know anybody that would let me hit them for all I'm worth in the chest with a 16 ounce ball peen hammer.

And that brings me back to knockdown power.

I'm pretty sure that a grown man will in fact end up on the ground right after catching a pistol round in the chest while wearing a vest. The energy transfer is still going to be massive and painful, and it just might turn a man's lights off for a little while. It's absolutely going to knock the wind out of him. Probably break some ribs too.

Now, I realize that the pistol round doesn't have enough power to literally take a man off his feet and throw him down...

But if he hits the ground right after taking the bullet, can't we call that a knock down?

I'm pretty sure that nine out of ten people watching a man "BangFlop" from a pistol round would say he was knocked down.

It's semantics. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantics

If we can't call a man that hits the ground in the same second that a bullet impacts his vest "Knocked Down", then what DO we call that?

Here's a definition from the online dictionary:

knock down
1. To bring to the ground with a blow; topple.

JohnKSa
February 5, 2013, 02:40 AM
But if he hits the ground right after taking the bullet, can't we call that a knock down?If you stick an icepick between someone's top cervical vertebra and into the skull foramen the person will instantly drop like a stone. But he will fall because his central nervous system was damaged, not because he was knocked down.

If you shoot someone with a taser, there is virtually no force imparted to the person via the impact of the darts, but the person will instantly fall to the round because the electric impulse will impair his ability to control his muscles.

If a person is dropped from an airplane, he will end up on the ground, but not because he was knocked down.

If a person loses his balance and trips, he will end up on the ground even though nothing knocked him down.

There are many different ways a person can end up on the ground without being knocked down and therefore it's inaccurate to say that merely because a person ends up on the ground he must have been knocked down.If we can't call a man that hits the ground in the same second that a bullet impacts his vest "Knocked Down", then what DO we call that?We can say he fell down from surprise, from the pain of the bullet strike, or any thing else that accurately describes what actually happened.

By the way, the OP was responding to the following claim: "Given a M9 pistol, a 9x19mm NATO ball round, & a SAPI armor plate in a vest..."

Soft body armor employed with an armor plate backing will allow a person to soak up pistol bullets so effectively that they may not even realize they have been shot. They certainly won't be knocked down.

Sam Cade
February 5, 2013, 02:49 AM
It turns out that smacking the board with the ball end of a 16 ounce ball peen hammer with everything I can put behind it pretty much makes the same kind of dent in the wood that the .45 leaves behind the vest.

Now go smack a 200lb log with equal force and see how much it moves.

jwh336
February 5, 2013, 02:53 AM
I can't help but think of those two bank robbers in California back in the '90's...

ofitg
February 5, 2013, 02:55 AM
During my crazy, misspent youth, I witnessed one guy absorb a torso hit from a blackpowder .44 pistol with a Second Chance vest - it smarted like the dickens and left a bruise, but he didn't go down.

I saw another guy take a torso hit from a .38 Spl while wearing a Second Chance vest - again, he did not enjoy it at all, but he stayed on his feet.

Fast Frank
February 5, 2013, 03:06 AM
See? That's semantics at it's best.

You have an idea in your mind what the word means in regard to this situation.

But in another situation, the meaning might be different.

Say I accidentally bumped your flat screen TV with my elbow, and it wobbled for a second and then fell on the floor.

I'm pretty sure you would jump up and demand payment because I Just knocked down your TV and broke it. By the given description, that's exactly what happened.

Would you accept my argument that the amount of pressure applied by my elbow was not enough to take your TV off it's feet and throw it violently to the floor, therefore I could not have knocked down your TV?

wooly bugger
February 5, 2013, 10:55 AM
This is important, because the antis use the fact that what's his name was wearing body armor in the Colorado movie theater shooting as a complete refutation of CCW's effectiveness.

If a 9mm is something like a bruising punch, I'm guessing 4 or 5 hits would at least give him pause and maybe set him up for a head shot.

Airbrush Artist
February 5, 2013, 11:15 AM
Sometimes Beer Knocks Me down...

Bartholomew Roberts
February 5, 2013, 11:21 AM
I think people, particularly hunters and soldiers who see living things shot, confuse "knockdown power" with neural response. I once popped a rabbit in the head with a .22LR and it flung him backwards 6-7' in the air... See how powerful .22LR is? Except that wasn't what happened... His scrambled brain signaled his leg muscles to contract and he jumped even as he died... The visual effect makes it look like the bullet blew him straight up into the air; but it is just the last message of a shattered nervous system.

mbt2001
February 5, 2013, 03:46 PM
I think people, particularly hunters and soldiers who see living things shot, confuse "knockdown power" with neural response. I once popped a rabbit in the head with a .22LR and it flung him backwards 6-7' in the air... See how powerful .22LR is? Except that wasn't what happened... His scrambled brain signaled his leg muscles to contract and he jumped even as he died... The visual effect makes it look like the bullet blew him straight up into the air; but it is just the last message of a shattered nervous system.

+1

I have had similar experiences. Bullets and guns are not magic charms that end fights.

In fact, one of the best "hollywood" gunfight scenes I have ever seen was at the end of Brooklyn's Finest. Richard Gere shoots a perp in the pump with a .38 and it is a failure to stop scenario. Very intense.

Backpacker33
February 5, 2013, 03:58 PM
I was hit in the chest, about 2.5 inches below my right nipple with a 9mm Hydrashok from three feet. The shooter used a Glock 19. I was wearing armor. I remember the flash but do not remember hearing the "bang." Next thing I have any recollection of was my team mates ripping off my clothes and armor. I felt as though a hot poker had been punched into me. The bullet penetrated the armor (we're talking almost 20 years ago) and penetrated my ribs. It stopped in my liver. According to the others, I fell the moment I was hit. Consensus is that this was mostly a reflex action on my part, attempting to jump back from the threat and reacting in shock. Though I don't remember the few seconds in between the flash and people helping me, this is probably the well-known effect of the mind not being able to keep up with the enormous amount of info that comes in so short a time. In my case, it went into "pause." I don't remember being afraid, just knowing I was totally dependent upon others for my well being. The paramedics said I did go into shock, but I feel as though I remember the entire painful ride to the hospital, with them fussing a lot and constantly talking to me. Last thing I remember as an IV-drip was put into my arm to deliver anesthetic, was asking if I could stay awake for the operation. HAH!

That was actually the second time I was shot. First time was in the head. I remained fully conscious and physically able and took care of my own flight from the threat. Ooooo did that hurt! And bleed.

taliv
February 5, 2013, 04:48 PM
you guys aren't fooling me. i've seen how they fly in the movies.

funny how it's always the bad guys that fly 10' when hit, and the good guys just sort of get a constipated facial expression

Outlaw Man
February 5, 2013, 06:11 PM
I nicknamed my truck "9mm," just so I can say things like that. :D

meanmrmustard
February 5, 2013, 07:12 PM
I'm on here with educated folk, but I'm going to say it anyway:

The force required to knock the average human down would implicate the same amount of force in recoil on the shooter.

While a bullet might exhibit traits that make a perp fall faster, you're not knocking anyone down.

gspn
February 5, 2013, 07:37 PM
No way a 9mm could do that. now...if it were a 10mm...

481
February 5, 2013, 07:41 PM
Knock-down power? A 9mm 124 gr. @ 1250fps has only 3.061 N•s of momentum. Not very much.

A 155mm round will do it, but then there ain't much left anyway so it's kinda academic, ain't it? :D

Onmilo
February 5, 2013, 08:07 PM
Let someone shoot you in the kneecap with a .22 solid and if you stay on your feet you can debate the "knockdown myth" all you want...

meanmrmustard
February 5, 2013, 08:32 PM
Let someone shoot you in the kneecap with a .22 solid and if you stay on your feet you can debate the "knockdown myth" all you want...
That's not knockdown, that's falling.

...and it's still a myth, a fictional happenstance in cheesy movies, and just as damaging to shooter as it is to whom is shot.

Sam Cade
February 5, 2013, 08:39 PM
If we want knockdown power from a pistol we are going to need one that fires Powder Blue 1976 Ford LTDs.

Deltaboy
February 5, 2013, 09:54 PM
12 gauge slug will do the job.

Leanwolf
February 6, 2013, 12:38 AM
FAST FRANK - "... I'm pretty sure that a grown man will in fact end up on the ground right after catching a pistol round in the chest while wearing a vest."

The two bank robbers, wearing vests, who instigated the infamous "North Hollywood BofA Shootout," certainly did not, and they were both hit all over their torsos multiple times with 9mm, .38 Special, and 12 ga. 00 buckshot.

L.W.

TheOld Man
February 6, 2013, 12:58 AM
Neighbor lady is Deputy. She took a round from a Bad Guy in the body armor. Went down like a rag doll. She got a few weeks off to recover, mostly from turning yellow and purple in the affected area. Other officer saw her go down and made Bad Guy look like a colander.

JohnKSa
February 6, 2013, 01:37 AM
Say I accidentally bumped your flat screen TV with my elbow, and it wobbled for a second and then fell on the floor.
I'm pretty sure you would jump up and demand payment...Well, you certainly were the cause of the TV ending up on the ground and so you would certainly be responsible for the damage. Just as a person who shoots another is responsible for their ending up on the ground even though the bullet didn't violently throw them to the ground.Would you accept my argument that the amount of pressure applied by my elbow was not enough to take your TV off it's feet and throw it violently to the floor, therefore I could not have knocked down your TV?No, I would not, and the reason is that, as I pointed out before when talking about bullets, the fact that your elbow couldn't throw the TV violently to the floor does not mean you couldn't be responsible for it's ending up on the floor.

It is simply not reasonable to assume that the only way someone can end up on the ground is by being knocked violently down. Although a bullet can't throw a person violently to the ground, it can certainly be the reason that a person ends up on the ground. In the same way, the fact that the TV wasn't knocked violently to the ground doesn't absolve the person who lightly bumped the TV of responsibility for the TV hitting the ground.

There are many ways a person (or a TV) can end up on the ground without being "knocked down". That's semantics at it's best.Words mean things. That's what makes them useful. If words are used incorrectly, then the wrong meaning is conveyed and that is a problem.

1911Tuner
February 6, 2013, 07:39 AM
I'm pretty sure that a grown man will in fact end up on the ground right after catching a pistol round in the chest while wearing a vest.

Too much evidence that doesn't support that. People aren't knocked down from being shot, especially with a service pistol round. They get shot and then they fall down.

What they do in response to being shot sometimes gives the impression that they were "knocked" down. Sometimes not. They may convulse and fling themselves backward, or they may convulse and fall forward. Sometimes they just drop like a marionette with its strings cut. Sometimes they give no outward indication that anything has happened at all.

It depends greatly on the recipient's state of mind. A few 250-pound bruisers have fallen to the ground, crying like little children after being shot in the arm with a .22 and a few 97-pound weaklings have taken multiple torso hits with a .357 and still had to be physically subdued.

When one of the "Top Gun" defensive instructors...can't remember offhand which one, but it may have been Awerbuck...was asked what we should expect a man to do when he is shot. The answer was simple and straightforward.

"You should expect him to continue doing whatever he was doing before he was shot."

StrawHat
February 6, 2013, 08:13 AM
Does anyone else remeber the way Rich Davies demonstrated his the new wearable body armor? He would borrow an officers sidearm and s use it to demonstrate the stopping power of his vest. He eventually used everything from 38 Specials up to 44 Magnums, stayed on his feet and continued with the lecture. As I recall he was not using a plate, just Kevlar so maybe this is apples and kumquats.

vito
February 6, 2013, 08:40 AM
Some of you just don't understand. It all depends on who is shooting the gun, or in some cases what the shooter is wearing! Clearly any gun fired by Bruce Willis or the Arnold knocks folks right off their feet. And if you dress in camo, carry at least three concealed weapons, and look REALLY tough, your first round will knock the bad guy at least a few feet back and onto his back. And as any video game players know, it never takes more than one round to kill the bad guy. Just point your gun in the general direction and pull the trigger.

Double Naught Spy
February 6, 2013, 08:41 AM
And that brings me back to knockdown power.

I'm pretty sure that a grown man will in fact end up on the ground right after catching a pistol round in the chest while wearing a vest. The energy transfer is still going to be massive and painful, and it just might turn a man's lights off for a little while. It's absolutely going to knock the wind out of him. Probably break some ribs too.

Wow, no. What you describe may happen, though I don't know of any cases of anyone being rendered unconscious after being shot in the chest whilst wearing a ballistic vest, so no turning off of any lights.

http://iacp.dupont.com/SurvivorClub/Search

Too many officers get shot and don't even know it. Some do get their breaths knock out of them and some may suffer a broken rib or two, but that doesn't mean they are going to be taken to the ground via the impact. Heck, people not wearing vests don't always even go to the ground when shot in the chest.

PRM
February 6, 2013, 08:41 AM
Aaaw c'mon, you mean that old tale about hitting a guy in the thumb with a .45 and it spinning him like a top on a hardwood floor ain't real:what:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YG2sdgdQrI

radiotom
February 6, 2013, 09:35 AM
Aaaw c'mon, you mean that old tale about hitting a guy in the thumb with a .45 and it spinning him like a top on a hardwood floor ain't real:what:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YG2sdgdQrI
LOL he flew like 20 feet....and I'm pretty sure those were .22's!!! :what::what:

:neener:

gym
February 6, 2013, 04:11 PM
It's only in the movies that people go flying through the air when hit with a shotgun, or a 45. In real life they fall down, "if you hit them in the right spot", or stagger off.
A 12 gauge is still a messy thing to be shot with, Especially with 00 buck. it can paint an ugly picture.

backbencher
February 9, 2013, 12:04 AM
Thanks for all the replies - I forgot how to find my own thread. I know someone who was hit w/ a pistol round in a soft vest - think it broke a rib, he went down, puked, crapped his pants, & passed out, apparently. The question was specifically about a 9mm round transferring its energy into a SAPI plate - which, given the plate is specifically engineered to stop .30"-06 AP rounds, should certainly stop a 9x19mm NATO.

gym
February 9, 2013, 11:03 AM
Maybe that 8 gauge in that cowboy movie. Or a 50 cal. Not much else. so many misconceptions about guns, most people don't even know the have been shot, unless it's in the head, or heart.

481
February 10, 2013, 01:50 PM
It's only in the movies that people go flying through the air when hit with a shotgun, or a 45. In real life they fall down, "if you hit them in the right spot", or stagger off.
A 12 gauge is still a messy thing to be shot with, Especially with 00 buck. it can paint an ugly picture.

How true.

Two of my former fellow officers have taken rounds to their vests and not known that it occurred until after the fight was over.

In one instance, one of them even stated to me later that same day that he thought that he'd pulled a muscle during the struggle only to be surprised to find a hole (thankfully not a complete 'perf' :) ) in his soft armor upon opening his shirt to check for the cause of the pain.

I got the impression that he found all of the ensuing paperwork far more painful. :evil:

9MMare
February 10, 2013, 02:05 PM
Thank you for this thread. I'm learning alot.

I always thought my 9mm M&P would make a decent house gun and when I'm home it lives on the shelf of my nightstand.

Now I realize that if I have a home invasion and they are wearing vests...which is getting more and more common....I do not even have stopping power.

I guess I need to look into a shotgun or something else, altho I'm not familiar with long guns and dont like the idea of trying to handle a longer weapon in the closer confines of a home. (I dont have to worry about who or what is on the other side of walls or outside tho).

Archangel14
February 10, 2013, 02:24 PM
I saw a 175-200 hog get hit with a 240 grain .44 mag round of medium load from about 40 yards.....thrice. It didn't go down for about a minute after being hit the 3rd time. It just lost control of it's functions. No head shots, all to the body.

NOW, I personally know of an incident where an undercover cop was shot in the chest back in '88 from about one foot away with a .38 caliber round discharged from a snub nose. He was wearing a vest at the time. The round did not penetrate the vest, but it knocked him right on his ass! The chest bruising was also pretty substantial.

Double Naught Spy
February 10, 2013, 02:30 PM
It didn't knock him down. He might have fallen down, but a shot from a .38 did not knock him down.

There is a very significant difference between a psychological reaction and a physiological reaction.

cambeul41
February 10, 2013, 03:16 PM
This is important, because the antis use the fact that what's his name was wearing body armor in the Colorado movie theater shooting as a complete refutation of CCW's effectiveness.

My understanding is that he was wearing some sort of tactical vest with pockets to hold magazines, not armor of any sort. And if he were, would it protect the pelvis?

michaelbsc
February 10, 2013, 08:22 PM
It didn't knock him down. He might have fallen down, but a shot from a .38 did not knock him down.

There is a very significant difference between a psychological reaction and a physiological reaction.

Most people are forgetting, in the physiological reaction side, that we have automatic withdrawal actions for self defense pre-programmed for millions of years. Certainly these can be trained against to a degree, but they are involuntarily present. The projectile may present a thousand ft-lbs to the chest, but the muscles probably present 10-40 times that to the systems trying to escape the threat just from the involuntary reflex, then collapse from shock.

breakingcontact
February 10, 2013, 09:46 PM
And that's just with a 9mm! Wait until the 40 or 45 death rays are used!

Airbrush Artist
February 10, 2013, 11:26 PM
Backpacker 33 is correct ,I have never been shot but I have been flung around in a F-5 Tornado and banged up and down on the ground,The mind cannot take the overload of fear and control a Humans reflex actions to a extreme life threatning moment,I was struck in the back of the head and Face with what I do not Know but adrenal glands took over and for me I was injured but continued to react to the enviroment,and something greater took Over. That I believe was a God that determined it was not My wifes or 2 year old sons time as well as My bodys reaction to survival..the one thing I recall the most was that everything seemed in slo-mo it really did...

somerandomguy
February 10, 2013, 11:26 PM
I can punch a person below the belt right in his second brain and he's going to fall to the ground crying out in agony...does that mean I have more stopping power than a 9mm round? Your arguments have all just been defeated. :neener:

Deer_Freak
February 10, 2013, 11:50 PM
The man is in combat. If he believes that the 9mm will do that God bless his soul. It might get him through an up close encounter. How can a bunch of Monday morning generals bash what the man says? He is there ready to die for your right to write the bull manure. You all might be great mathematicians but your respect for our fighting men leaves much to be desired.

You can bet this much if I heard this conversation about any soldier by a bunch of civilians who lack the guts to serve I would just piss all over their legs.

CZguy
February 11, 2013, 01:42 AM
I don't know if this thread needs to die or not, but the last three posts need to be deleted for good taste if nothing else. :scrutiny:

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