Any runners on the forum? SD tools while running.


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gossamer
February 5, 2013, 01:57 PM
I run with my dog. We do 20-40 miles a week. Most of where we run is fine. Some places are sketchy though.

A 15-26 mile run with a gun is completely impractical, especially during the summer.

Besides self defense, I also am considering defense of my dog because others around here cannot find it within themselves to respect our leash laws.

I currently carry a small can of pepper spray. Not sure how effective this would really be as it's aerosol and not a foam.

I was curious if any other runners have any suggestions for non-firearm SD tools/weapons?

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lobo9er
February 5, 2013, 02:18 PM
I have never found myself bothered by a .380 on any hike or jog. I'd say a .380 isn't much harder to carry than a pepper spray. Or even a beretta bearcat would be better than nothing. To each his own. some say they wont leave the house without a full size service pistol.

gossamer
February 5, 2013, 03:12 PM
I have never found myself bothered by a .380 on any hike or jog. I'd say a .380 isn't much harder to carry than a pepper spray. Or even a beretta bearcat would be better than nothing. To each his own. some say they wont leave the house without a full size service pistol.

A kel tec .32 or .380 is light and easy to carry. Also a NAA 22 revilver is very small. No excuse to not run with out them.

Run a few marathons have ya?

Funny, I thought I was posing this in the "non-firearms weapons" forum. Guns are the exact opposite of what is intended or asked for.

Pretty sure I'm best qualified to make the determination of what type of defensive weapon to carry in my circumstance.


A gun and running shorts don't mix. Especially over 15-20 miles in the spring, summer and early fall. There's also the issue of the law saying concealed means concealed. Not kinda concealed.

I had a hard enough time keeping running shorts up with an iPhone hanging from them. A gun is not gonna happen.

A man can barely conceal his manness in a pair of distance shorts.

beatledog7
February 5, 2013, 04:20 PM
I do not carry while running. I have only my feet and my wits.

I may rethink that. In December I was bitten by a dog mid-stride. He was in the "care" of two children, perhaps 9-12 years old. Not that shooting the dog would have been an option in that scenario, but it did make me think differently. I don't currently own a gun that would work for running, but a blade of some sort might be in order.

conw
February 5, 2013, 04:41 PM
The Galco under wraps belly band works dandy for carrying a gun g19 sized or smaller. The distance run is not that relevant since longer is slower... Sprints would be an issue, intermediate or long distance not so much.

I mention this to segue to my next point: a belly band also allows one to use G-clip (Spyderco makes one but any decent kydex guy or gal could make one) to secure a concealed fixed blade owb or iwb. A bit of grip tape makes it even more secure.

I've run for over an hour outside in that type of setup as well as treadmill runs of 10mph or more for 20ish minutes. I'm sure you are more into running than me but there is nothing magical about running longer that would make that setup uncomfortable based on my testing. Sprinting 40m or 100m is a different story.

For longer outside runs I use static cord to secure some fox labs spray to my small hydration pack, which usually has a reload and very small, true emergency minimalist vac sealed medkit.

glistam
February 5, 2013, 04:43 PM
There is nothing wrong with pepper spray on a run. Good for two and four-legged problems. There are some very small light weight types and there's holsters you can get that go around your bicep or the back of your hand.

MJD
February 5, 2013, 05:31 PM
Gossamer,

I run with a small fanny pack by a company named Nathan. I have fit a .38 S&W J-frame in there before, but since you are looking for nonfirearm uses, I do not believe you would have a problem fitting both pepper spray and your phone in there at the same time, provided that the pepper spray is of the smaller variety. I carry my phone in there on long run days.

The fanny pack is extremely light, compact, and, as mentioned, will hold both your phone, pepper spray (or knife), and will have some extra room for gel packs (if that's your thing).

jon86
February 5, 2013, 06:09 PM
I have ran 5 miles with a smartcarry and an airweight J frame. Never again. It was very uncomfortable, to say the least. I'm interested in what others do.

I don't have an LCP or similar sized 380, but I wonder if it would be feasible to put it in some kind of arm band made for an iphone?

lobo9er
February 5, 2013, 06:21 PM
I don't where running shorts so... to each his own again. I where light weight cargo looking pants or shorts that I get from Gander Mtn. And no I don't run marathons, but I do enjoy the various mud runs, tough mudders/hero runs, and they work great for that stuff too. They dry out super quick. And afford me conceal ability. So if you cant even carry a cell phone what type of self defense item are you looking for. A neck knife might work for you, about the only other option beside the pepper spray.

gossamer
February 5, 2013, 06:31 PM
A few things:

First the very real, legal issue: is that you can't wear so much as a temporary tattoo without printing in the summer when running. May - Sept. I run in shorts and shoes. After just the first 30 mins, my shorts print my religion, if you get what I mean. A firearm in this context would land me in violation of my ccw permit.

My average pace for a 20-mile run is the same as my average pace for a 7.5 mile run (8:07-8:11/mile if anyone is counting). For me, longer is not slower. If it is I'm doing something wrong on one of those runs. My training requires I go out of my way to make sure the pace is the same regardless of distance.

I've tried the belts/packs, even the very light weight Spybelt. With an ipod they were okay for a short run, maybe 4-5 miles. But my shortest runs now are 7 miles in the coldest winter days. Much more than that and they flop too much and they chafe.

These things seem okay after an hour, after 2 hours I wouldn't be bringing this stuff home with me and someone would find an iPod (or an LCP) on the side of the road.

I'm thinking something the size of my small Sabre "Runner" is the only day-in-day-out option but I appreciate the input from folks.

Beatledog, yours is the exact reason I picked up the spray.

OptimusPrime
February 5, 2013, 06:31 PM
Short jogs and slow runs aren't your question, right? When I was training for my marathon (40 pounds ago), I tried everything. I ended up actually running with a stout stick about 18" long. Kinda like a baton and I could swing it in rhythm. But then again, I didn't even carry it all the time, just on those particular runs where I knew about the dogs.
In general, I rationalized that I was in better shape than any human threat (what, are they gonna chase me for the next 17 miles?) and I could go in the woods or cross country where their car couldn't. Against animals I estimated my scent/stench and general grumpiness while running was a deterrence.

gossamer
February 5, 2013, 06:34 PM
Gossemer: NAA sells a lanyard where you can wear a gun around your neck and still wear your tight spandex shorts ..besides you said it was whilest walking your dog not a marathon. roll eyes

But you have to have a concealed carry licence to carry...do you? Sorry girl.

http://www.naaminis.com/discus/messages/2/22335.jpg
No, I said while running with my dog. And Picco runs every one of those 26.2 miles by my side. Every single mile. Every single time. We've run over 2000 miles in under 2 years. No bs.

I don't wear spandex.

kBob
February 5, 2013, 06:45 PM
I am the anti-runner. No seriously though I do not run and other than military service never have.

If you are concerned about concealed carry, most places that have anti CC gun laws also have anti CC knife laws.

A number of folks around here are big on small knives and some fo the neck sheath affairs with very short blades are appealing to me and might get by your local anti CC laws.....but do you really want to fend off a pit bull with a two inch blade?

May sound silly but have you considerd running with a cane? or some other stick?

Old study based on NIJ reports indicates that knives for defense are a good way to get hurt for most folks, running away doesn't do so hot either and making a fuss is about the worse you can do.

Guess what the study showed as most likely to get you out of a bad confrontation with out being hurt yourself? it was not a non -firearm weapon.

Some dogs could careless about pepper spray that would put you on the ground.

Most folks here are trying to be helpful even if they loose track of the non firearms theme of this board.

-kBob

kayak-man
February 5, 2013, 06:54 PM
My usual defensive tool when I run is a small assisted opening knife clipped into my shorts waistband. I just ordered one of the ka-bar LDKs, and it looks like it has some potential for carry while running or at the gym.

I don't know how legal it is for you, but It sounds to me like some kind of impact weapon might be a good way to go. I've heard mixed reviews of the ASP style batons, but if you can carry pepper spray, I imagine one of those wouldn't be too hard to carry on a run. A sap/blackjack would probably be rather effective too. something small and not too heavy, but that will definitely bring a fight to a stop if you need to use it.

Droid noob
February 5, 2013, 07:02 PM
Like someone else said, an armband that might hold pepper spray or a knife. I'd would think a neck knife would bounce around too much. If your shirtless, it's a moot point anyway. Sounds like strapping something to your arm is the way to go.

Kayaker 1960
February 5, 2013, 07:03 PM
I don't run as much as you, My dog and I run 3 miles, twice a week. I carry a Kershaw Leek folding knife. It's thin and light and opens easily and quickly with a flick of a finger. I clip it inside the waisband of my shorts.

lobo9er
February 5, 2013, 08:01 PM
might not be a bad idea to try to find some different attire also. Unless you want to look the part there are other options available. But it sounds like your set in your ways and not much your gonna conceal so.... I guess we are at a pass. Either change something about your current system or go on without a new defensive item.

RTR_RTR
February 5, 2013, 08:10 PM
I'd stick with the pepper spray and add a lightweight kobutan so you have something with a little more authority if need be

conw
February 5, 2013, 08:14 PM
I don't run as much as you, My dog and I run 3 miles, twice a week. I carry a Kershaw Leek folding knife. It's thin and light and opens easily and quickly with a flick of a finger. I clip it inside the waisband of my shorts.

I see some serious and real potential issues for carrying an AO knife IWB during an athletic activity, especially as a defensive item. I would recommend against this, personally :uhoh:

conw
February 5, 2013, 08:18 PM
My average pace for a 20-mile run is the same as my average pace for a 7.5 mile run (8:07-8:11/mile if anyone is counting). For me, longer is not slower. If it is I'm doing something wrong on one of those runs. My training requires I go out of my way to make sure the pace is the same regardless of distance.

This is getting a little ridiculous. I'm glad you are proud of your running prowess, but you could obviously run a mile or three faster than 7.5 or 20. Whether you do in your training is pretty much entirely beside the point.

Point taken regarding comfort, but you're just going to have to accept the inherent trade-offs in choosing to gear up specifically for one sport in the way considered 100% optimal to that sport, versus a way that is passable or optimized toward SD.

The other thing is that all these belly band options are highly individual, and differ. Until you have test-driven each of them for your 2+ hour runs I don't really think you can pass a blanket judgment, but that's up to you.

gossamer
February 5, 2013, 08:21 PM
The clothing is more a function of the weather and effective running than a preference for any one item.

In a few years of doing this, I've found the clothing that works through a lot of trial and error and idiot taxes paid. If you've run a lot you understand this.

Anything that is counterproductive to a good run isn't going to pass the test. Be it clothing, sd, shoes, socks, or a route.

Anyone who's run 10 or more miles in the summer on a regular basis knows (a) what clothing does after 10-15 minutes - clings to everything. This means spending 2 or more hours printing (b) that more clothing is counter productive to effectively running those miles.

The baton/club or small knife might be an option and is worth considering. Our runs take us through all kinds of neighborhoods. Some of which would definitely call the police on anyone they see going down the trail printing a gun or knife big enough to ward off a dog or bg. It won't matter how cute my pal is. It's not a situation I want to deal with on a run (or any other time.)

Like I said, I'm most serious about maintaining a good run and serious about concealed meaning concealed, not kind of concealed. So i realize the options are limited. Again, appreciate the feed back.

gossamer
February 5, 2013, 08:31 PM
This is getting a little ridiculous. I'm glad you are proud of your running prowess, but you could obviously run a mile or three faster than 7.5 or 20. Whether you do in your training is pretty much entirely beside the point.

Point taken regarding comfort, but you're just going to have to accept the inherent trade-offs in choosing to gear up specifically for one sport in the way considered 100% optimal to that sport, versus a way that is passable or optimized toward SD.

The other thing is that all these belly band options are highly individual, and differ. Until you have test-driven each of them for your 2+ hour runs I don't really think you can pass a blanket judgment, but that's up to you.

Maybe I wasn't clear in my point but its not a matter of pride and I certainly don't think it merits ridicule. I was responding to the idea that long runs are slower than short runs. They simply aren't. Anyone who runs distance with regularity understands that the whole point is not to vary your pace that much.

90 strides/minute is the goal for each run. To point where we sing songs at this tempo to maintain pace.

It's not a comfort issue, it's a sheerly (pun intended) practical issue that running garb doesn't hide anything.

Where exactly do you recommend a shirtless man wearing shorts hide one of these belly bands?

you're just going to have to accept the inherent trade-offs in choosing to gear up specifically for one sport in the way considered 100% optimal to that sport, versus a way that is passable or optimized toward SD

Kinda the whole reason for my question in post #1. I've accepted there's a trade off, the pint is, what are others finding as the balancing point?

Again, I don't think this warrants ridicule.

NG VI
February 6, 2013, 02:30 AM
Why do you have to run ten miles to find out that clothing clings to you after ten minutes of running?

Are you a cheetah?

Deltaboy
February 6, 2013, 08:04 AM
Neck knife, pepper spray will work so would a small auto or J frame in a Danny pack.

glistam
February 6, 2013, 09:11 AM
I live in Maryland which has no accessible handgun permits, and it is also illegal to carry handguns openly (pray for us this legislative session...)

I approach this from a matter of threat/risk assessment. When you're a runner, especially a male one with a dog alongside, you make don't make for a very tempting target by human criminals. You're athletic and highly mobile unless severely winded, and are very unlikely to be carrying large amounts of money or valuables, if any at all. If they even attempt anything it will be using a ruse to lure you in or an ambush. The greater risk comes from off-leash dogs, who don't follow logic, are faster than you, and can be as much a threat to your own dog as you.

With dog threats, you want distance. Aside from one instance where I saw a friend put a rotti to sleep with a mata leon from behind (it was after another person), all instances I have seen where a dog was neutralized involve pepper spray, a firearm, or long blunt-force weapon. It is worth noting there are multiple cases of the firearm failing to even slow a pit down, so they are by no means perfect. Pepper spray works just fine on dogs, and while I hear some people claim certain dogs can fight through it, I have yet to see proof of this happening or even hear a first-hand anecdote. Blunt force weapons are tricky for a runner because of the weight and finding a comfortable way to carry. Some runners I know carry an expandable baton either in the small of their back or in one of those super small backpack things. It takes some trial and error to arrange it right so it's not knocking into you or sagging, and some of that is body type. If you can make it work and it's legal for you though, I'd give it a try.

gossamer
February 6, 2013, 09:20 AM
Glistam: thank you. This is a helpful response.
I hope you're able to get the MD laws rectified soon.

gossamer
February 6, 2013, 10:16 AM
Why do you have to run ten miles to find out that clothing clings to you after ten minutes of running?

Are you a cheetah?

No, just a guy who likes to run and expresses more than one thought in a sentence. Please read the whole thing:

Anyone who's run 10 or more miles in the summer on a regular basis knows ... (b) that more clothing is counter productive to effectively running those miles.

JShirley
February 6, 2013, 10:52 AM
I can't run in more than shorts and a t-shirt. I feel every extra ounce.

My distance runs are significantly slower per mile than my short (2-3 mile) runs. I used to run at least 5x a week. Just as it's foolish and arrogant for anyone to tell you what you "should" do, it's foolish and arrogant to think it's possible to speak for everyone who does a certain activity.

John

Bobson
February 6, 2013, 11:09 AM
If I were in your shoes, I'd give the Kimber Pepperblaster (http://www.cabelas.com/product/Hunting/Survival-Navigation/Personal-Defense|/pc/104791680/c/104774580/sc/104496480/Kimber-PepperBlaster174-II/751857.uts?destination=%2Fcatalog%2Fbrowse%2Fhunting-survival-navigation-personal-defense%2F_%2FN-1100150&WTz_l=DirectLoad%3Bcat104496480) some consideration. If not interested in that, just ensure that the OC you do carry fires in a direct bead, rather than a spray cone. That will give you much better range and will significantly reduce (though not eliminate) your own suffering when you fire it. Therein lies the problem with OC spray, IMO at least: Both the target and the user will feel some of the effects.

If you've ever been sprayed with OC, or used it on someone else, you know what I'm talking about. If you haven't been sprayed, and you plan to continue carrying it, you should seriously consider convincing a close friend or family member to spray you in the safety of your backyard. That experience isn't going to reduce the effects of it in the future, but it will give you the advantage of knowing how you react to it, which will reduce or eliminate panic if you end up using (and therefore feeling) it in the future.

If you decide to do this, the setup is simple. You'll want a hose turned on and laying in the grass close (10ft or so) to where you get sprayed. Follow the instructions on the canister regarding use (distance, method, length of burst) when you're sprayed. After you're sprayed, you'll want to rinse your face and eyes thoroughly in the hose. Stay outside until you can keep your eyes open to see well enough to function on your own. This time varies from 10-35 minutes or so, depending on the person. Have the friend or family member who sprayed you stay with you during that time, possibly fan you with a small towel. After that's done, go inside and take as cold a shower as possible. Note that water does activate the spray, and will reactivate it in the shower (it will have dried during the 15-35 mins outside). Wash thoroughly with Johnson's tear-free baby shampoo. Rub the soap into your open eyes, and flush thoroughly. After the shower, just lie down under a ceiling fan for an hour or two. The burning should be completely gone by the time you wake up next day.

Obviously that doesn't sound like much fun, and in my experience, it's downright awful. It's also totally beneficial to any user, which is why all LE who carry it are forced to go through this process.

Short of all that, carry a collapsible baton and a knife. A fixed blade is a good idea. This Ka-Bar TDI (http://www2.knifecenter.com/item/KA1480/KA-BAR-1480-TDI-Law-Enforcement-Knife-2-516-inch-Black-Plain-Blade-Zytel-Handles) weighs just a few ounces, is built very well, and is designed for self-defense.

gossamer
February 6, 2013, 12:03 PM
John: Your point about the shirt is what I'm getting at. It's just not feasible for me on my runs here 9 months out of the year. Day time temps at 55 and up usually mean shorts and a tshirt maximum for me. Hence I'm seeking ideas in the non-firearm forum. Also, I'm just not wild about the possibility of defending myself legally and losing my CCW because I wasn't complying with the law on concealment.

Also, I wasn't trying to speak for everyone who runs. When I said "we" in terms of pace, I was merely talking about people who train using the 90stride/minute protocol -- not all runners. Apologies if I came across as speaking for everyone.


Bobson: Thanks for the link to the Kimber item. I've never seen or heard about it until now and it looks like a possible option. One question I have that is unclear from the link: Is it merely a 'trigger' or is there an OC capsule contained in there too? If it's an all-in-one that looks like a winner.

Having discharged an OC spray before, I have no desire to do it again. The words "miserable" and "WHY?!" come to mind. As does the idea that our running paths here provide for no less than a very a looooooong walk to the closest water source. Add that to my running pal getting a face-full and, yes, concentrated is best.

The OC I have now was an impulse buy at a LGS. It's only benefit is that it's small. Beyond that, I'd probably be better off throwing it at an offender than using as directed.

JShirley
February 6, 2013, 12:21 PM
Ok, no problem. :)

I really do understand needing to keep your gear light. I feel even a watch cap, and running in issue PT pants is difficult for more than a couple of laps. At the same time, I'm a dog lover and former dog owner. I really understand wanting to keep your buddy safe.

The last time I was hit with OC, I had effects for over 2 hrs. I literally had to hold an eye open on the drive home, despite shampoo, rinsing, etc.

The Kimber does seem like a good product. I bought one for my last wife. It's a few dollars cheaper from Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003L75SSI/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B003L75SSI&linkCode=as2&tag=wanderin00-20).

John

gossamer
February 6, 2013, 12:38 PM
Ok, no problem. :)

I really do understand needing to keep your gear light. I feel even a watch cap, and running in issue PT pants is difficult for more than a couple of laps.

Amen. On the coldest days, teens, I can barely handle hat, tights and PT shorts, and heavy shirt. That's only because it's a 1 hour run max.

At the same time, I'm a dog lover and former dog owner. I really understand wanting to keep your buddy safe.

He's one of the top 3 reasons I run. It's the best time of the day being with him and nothing else distracting us. Heads down, mile after mile in silent conversation with each other. And this guy is "encounter prone." In the few years we've had him he's been skunked in the face, bit by a copperhead, in fights with deer, a ground hog, and an opossum and bit by another dog on the nose through a fence on a walk. And we do not live in the country either. He's just one of those dogs.


The Kimber does seem like a good product. I bought one for my last wife. It's a few dollars cheaper from Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003L75SSI/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B003L75SSI&linkCode=as2&tag=wanderin00-20).

John

Is it just the trigger mechanism or is the OC contained in there too? MEaning, would I have to buy the trigger and a bottle of OC?

Zardaia
February 6, 2013, 12:51 PM
It's an all in one pepper spray that is shapped somwhat like a gun. However i believe, may be wrong, u only get two shots. Each trigger pull fully discharges one of two pre charged canisters.

gossamer
February 6, 2013, 01:01 PM
It's an all in one pepper spray that is shapped somwhat like a gun. However i believe, may be wrong, u only get two shots. Each trigger pull fully discharges one of two pre charged canisters.
Ah. Good to know. I will check it out. Thanks.

JShirley
February 6, 2013, 01:04 PM
Yup, Zardaia has it right. I am not certain if you can buy the canisters separately, but the original unit does come pre-charged. 2 shots, and I believe they are actually discharged like shooting a firearm.

J

Bobson
February 6, 2013, 01:06 PM
What kind of dog is he, Gossamer? Sorry if you already answered that and I missed it. He seems to have some incredible stamina.

gossamer
February 6, 2013, 01:30 PM
What kind of dog is he, Gossamer? Sorry if you already answered that and I missed it. He seems to have some incredible stamina.

He's a mutt. He can out run me all day every day. We were told he's half pit half schnauzer but we also have been told he looks like he's got some wolf hound in him.

All I know is he loves to run.

The scrapper.
http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u672/gossamerj70/F2CCA390-5B98-44C6-A5D4-0450E230044D-6057-000003EF92205D9B_zpsad9c9c25.jpg

The scrapper after a 20-miler in November.
http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u672/gossamerj70/4415B141-3BC8-484F-B846-E98FAF6866BA-6057-000003EF10DBEE78_zps8ec09355.jpg

mrnic3guy1989
February 6, 2013, 01:35 PM
Their is a great lil knife called the back off get away (boga) I think it's called from cheaperthandirt.com. For less than $20.00 I think it can be worn as an armband or necklace very discrete.

NG VI
February 6, 2013, 01:40 PM
You can get extra cartridges for the Kimber (Guardian Angel?) pepper blaster, it comes with one or two training cartridges I believe.

They should make a reduced power cartridge to so owners can test a somewhat less severe version of their spray. It would be a way to take advantage of the versatility they offer over canned, disposable sprays.

lobo9er
February 6, 2013, 04:44 PM
Check your laws though, in NY those kimber pepper blasters I believe aren't legal. NY, no surprise, has very strict pepper spray laws. The laws include how they look, or at least they did.

heron
February 6, 2013, 05:14 PM
Yes to the spray, Gossamer, but you might also consider a very thin, flexible stick, perhaps a willow switch, about three feet long and a couple ounces. Won't break bones -- it might not even break skin -- but it'll sting like furies. Target the attacker's ears with it.

zhyla
February 6, 2013, 05:22 PM
Wow, a lot of drama for a simple question. I only run a couple miles at a time but I just carry a folder clipped on my pocket. I don't generally view knives as a weapon but it's better than nothing.

Zardaia
February 6, 2013, 05:23 PM
I'd love to be able to run with the dog. Last time I went home I took the parent's dog out for a walk. Started a slow jog and I think he about died in 100yards. Spoiled over weight mutt that one is...

Mikhail Weiss
February 6, 2013, 09:52 PM
I clip a large Cold Steel Voyager (http://dealerscorner.coldsteel.com/big/29LC.jpg) into the waistband of my running shorts when I jog. I don't notice it's there.

Seems any similarly lightweight knife with a clip, plus the pepper spray you presently carry, would make for a useful combination, and carrying both would still be lighter than a gun.

sidheshooter
February 7, 2013, 11:08 PM
Not much to add that hasn't been said. Spyderco endura in the waistband works for me. It gets sticky, but it's there.

Madcap_Magician
February 7, 2013, 11:41 PM
Emerson La Griffe in a clip sheath. The clip sheath is hard to find (most are custom made, though that's not to hard to do yourself with a metal clip and the factory sheath), and the knife is very difficult to find.

But it's about three inches long with ridiculous retention in hand, and it probably weighs less than two ounces with the sheath. Turns you into a human velociraptor.

A collapsible baton is way too heavy, any of the larger wood sticks or canes are too awkward.

Kimber Pepperblaster is a decent choice, but you get two shots without the chance to readjust your aim like you can with a stream or foam pepper spray. Also a bit heavier, though it comes with a clip that you can tuck into your waistband.

I always carry a J-frame-sized revolver with my driver's license and carry permit in a small fanny pack. But that's not for everyone, and I have never done a run more than eight miles with it.

leadcounsel
February 8, 2013, 12:59 AM
There are light weight elastic waist gun pouches. Or a clip draw rig on a pistol. A light weight .380 or 9x19 polymer pistol and ammo will come in at a pound.

I'd say that if you can't carry an extra pound when you run then no offense but that's a problem.

My biggest fear when running is having a stray dog chase me or attack me. Second biggest fear is either being hit by a car and badly injured/left defenseless, or abducted by people in a van. Or just encountering a desperate violent person. Need a gun for self defense.

Running 15-20 miles. Yep, that's hard. But I've rucked 12 miles carrying 60 lbs worth of gear, so you won't have my sympathies carrying a pound of gear on a run.

JShirley
February 8, 2013, 01:14 AM
Hey, we can compare. I carried a similar ruck...plus a 60mm mortar with M8 baseplate and attached bipod (about 35 more pounds total), plus M9 or M4. I weighed 155 at the time.

Carrying ANY extra weight made running difficult. And I was the 2nd best runner in the squad (the best was a 128-lb jackrabbit). Your sympathies are obviously unneccessary, pretentious, and boorish.

gossamer
February 8, 2013, 01:25 AM
There are light weight elastic waist gun pouches. Or a clip draw rig on a pistol. A light weight .380 or 9x19 polymer pistol and ammo will come in at a pound.

I'd say that if you can't carry an extra pound when you run then no offense but that's a problem.

My biggest fear when running is having a stray dog chase me or attack me. Second biggest fear is either being hit by a car and badly injured/left defenseless, or abducted by people in a van. Or just encountering a desperate violent person. Need a gun for self defense.

Running 15-20 miles. Yep, that's hard. But I've rucked 12 miles carrying 60 lbs worth of gear, so you won't have my sympathies carrying a pound of gear on a run.
Again, I thought this said "non-firearm weapons."

You are free to run 26 miles or 2 and then comeback and tell me what you should do. But please don't presume to know better than me what's right for me.

I've done my 20 mile days with a loaded 60lb pack too, Including the AT and RMT. Comparing it to running is apples and oranges. Ones packing and ones running.

I don't need a gun for sd when i'm running, if you feel you do that's great for you.

I didn't ask for sympathy. I asked for a "non-firearm weapon"

lobo9er
February 8, 2013, 10:46 AM
Your sympathies are obviously unneccessary, pretentious, and boorish.

sorry OP I agree with JShirley. If you want to conceal something wear a T-shirt, and some underwear.

gossamer
February 8, 2013, 11:15 AM
sorry OP I agree with JShirley. If you want to conceal something wear a T-shirt, and some underwear.

Jeez. Did you actually read what John wrote? I can't speak for him, but I think he was saying leadcounsel's "sympathies are obviously unneccessary, pretentious, and boorish."

Let's make this clear:

(1) If I wanted a recommendation for a gun to carry while running or how best to carry a gun while running, I would have posted this in a forum other than the one entitled: "Non-Firearm Weapons" The fact that I DID ask the question here should be a very clear indicator that I do not want a recommendation on carrying a concealed firearm while running.

(2) I'm just spitballing here, but I think that of everyone on this forum that I MAYbe the most qualified to know what I can and cannot conceal while I'm running in my area to be in compliance with our law. Neither a t-shirt nor underwear will conceal a gun when I am running.

lobo9er
February 8, 2013, 12:40 PM
Sure but you cant even carry your cell phone comfortably, so what self defense Item is going to be smaller, lighter and still be effective? So from what I'm gathering unless you change your attire your not gonna carry much. You don't where a shirt so a neck knife is out. A hard plastic krambit or other impact weapon maybe an option. You are looking for a self defense item am I wrong?

ssmith1187
February 8, 2013, 01:32 PM
"I was responding to the idea that long runs are slower than short runs. They simply aren't. Anyone who runs distance with regularity understands that the whole point is not to vary your pace that much."

Actually you should...but that's a topic for a different thread ;-)

I saw a reference to it, but didn't see a link provided:

http://www.kimberamerica.com/pepperblaster

All the best,
Steve

gossamer
February 8, 2013, 03:20 PM
The Kimberly pepper blaster will fit in the pocket of my running shorts. So it looks like the best option thus far.

Thanks to all who alerted me to it and other viable options.

Steve. Thanks for the heads up.
Yes. Changing pace among runs is one way to train. (Please note I clarified what I meant later, in resp. To John's comment.) It's not the only way to train. Successfully training for and completing multiple marathons has shown me that my method of training works for me at this stage in my development. Right down to my clothing choices. I'm by no means an ultrarunner, so there's a lot more to learn and a lot further to go.

YMMV ... literally

ssmith1187
February 8, 2013, 03:43 PM
The Kimber has a fairly stout belt/pocket clip and I have worn it clipped on the outside of my running shorts and surprisingly it was barely noticeable nor did it bounce too much.

If you go that route, hopefully it will be successful for you too.

All the best,
Steve

JShirley
February 8, 2013, 07:07 PM
I'm just spitballing here, but I think that of everyone on this forum that I MAYbe the most qualified to know what I can and cannot conceal while I'm running in my area to be in compliance with our law

That was my take, too. Then again, I don't tell women what firearm they "should" own/carry for defense, either. :rolleyes: (My SIL really liked the AK she shot last weekend. It'll probably be what she reaches for first in her house. Since it also had the least penetration of the three calibers she shot, AND the most power, AND she always hit the target, it's a fine choice.)

John

USAF_Vet
February 8, 2013, 10:26 PM
I'm not much of a runner any more, and I hated running when I was on active duty. But I do have some thoughts on this.

I first thought of a small folding knife, like a folding utility razor. Most are pocket clipped, and would have a tendency to slip off the waist band of running shorts. If you could secure it better than just with the clip, it's a wicked deterrant.

I also thought of a small impact tool, like a kubaton, but against an angry dog, it would be both ineffective and puts your hand and forearm way too close to the mouth of said angry dog. Against humans, it might serve better, but I'd carry a knife over an impact tool if size and weight are critical.

A willow switch (I think someone else mentioned this early on) is light weight, and stings like crazy. Might be effective against a dog, might be effective against a human.


The Kimber pepper blaster is light weight and effective against all sorts of critters. I don't know how well they carry, though. But that seems like it may be your best option. A custom Kydex holster with an elastic strap to secure it like a wrist band might be a great way to go.

I don't know where you reside, so I'm spitballing here on what you can carry openly.

kBob
February 9, 2013, 09:15 AM
The reason I said some dogs are not bothered by pepper spray is my direct personal experience.

The dog was my own Black Lab.

It had a digging problem and someone at the vets office thought using peper spray on the area he dug would discourage him. He came up while I was spraying the area while I was wearing an m-17A1 mask. He sniffed and licked at my hand with the pepper sray in it.

I then sprayed the air between us and he began to show play signs and snap at the cloud like snapping at a fly.

Concerned that the spray I had bought for my wife was not effective (where she works no guns and no BHKs and she had recieved direct threats) I sprayed the dog directly. This lead to more play behavior.

Now keep in mind I had several sprays at the dirt actually two in the air between me and the dog and one directly in the dogs face and the dog was n play mode.

Believing the spray to be completely defective I removed my mask.

The spray was far more effective than any CS, CN, or DM I have been exposed to in the open, in chambers or even CS crystals on the face. On me. The dog, unaffected, was now sure we were playing at the dog/ boy wrestling game as I was on all fours attempting to reach the back door and hose without falling or running into something. Eric rolled and gummed me repeatedly, tail wagging the whole time until my wife noticed the strangled screaming and called the dog away.

Had the dog been not in a playful mood he could have eaten me.

This is why I do not trust OC for dog control. People yes. Dogs no.

There, you have now read of someones direct personal experience of OC dog failure.

Ended up having to pave the area with hardware cloth to stop the digging as he was after my well pump and in danger of digging up under ground power lines. Eric was a good friend for many years and passed peacefully in his sleep a few years after he pepper sprayed me.

-kBob

leadcounsel
February 9, 2013, 06:05 PM
Only a knife - eh, not so much.

If you INSIST on just carrying a knife, and only wear shoes, shorts, and socks, then you'll need some sort of clipdraw for your waistband. Can't believe that you couldn't figure that out on your own. If you're willing to add a tshirt to the mix, then you can carry a neckdraw like the Becker Necker knife.

Most people would agree that any 3" blade, while better than nothing, is not a very serious or effective SD weapon.

On a run, the threats you'd likely encounter are 1) vicious dog, or 2) violent people (not the type wanting to just rob you, because well clearly you don't have anything worth just taking), or 3) being disabled and left for dead (such as being hit by a car, or another injury - in which case you'd be in too poor of condition to put up a fight).

A small knife is just inadequate for the likely threats you'd encounter. A vicious dog or violent armed person will not effectively be stopped by a 3" blade.

I carry a small belly pouch, with a color copy of my DL and CPL and a G27 with hollowpoints. Don't even notice the extra 1lb of weight. Your body will quickly adjust to the weight.

If it happens to make your run harder slightly, then look it as great training. When you run a race for real, you'll feel that much lighter because you can leave it in the car.

If you're too obsessed with your training run time to care that carrying a gun may add a few seconds of time per mile, then I'd suggest re-prioritizing your life. What's more important? Self defense and a 6 minute mile, or disarmed and a 5:50 mile?

I'm not trying to offend, just offer my insight.
http://www.pistolwear.com/

I use this and it works well. Conceals well too.

Kayaker 1960
February 9, 2013, 06:25 PM
At close distance a knife,properly used can be every bit as effective as a gun. A SHARP 3" blade slashed across the wrist will cut tendons, making the arm worthless and leading to quick bleed out if not cared for promply. A slash across the throat, well, no need to discuss further. In general slashing cuts are more effective than stabs. In protecting you furry friend from a large/agressive dog you can easily sever the tendon on a dogs back leg, making the leg useless, of course slashing a dogs throat or a direct stab into the heart works too.
The knife must be kept very sharp and you need handle it enough to open it without fumbling with it.

Kayaker 1960
February 9, 2013, 06:35 PM
I guess somebody should have told this guy to never bring a knife to a gun fight...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75RTkGbiJpk

JShirley
February 9, 2013, 07:44 PM
can't believe you couldn't figure out...not trying to offend

The attitude in those statements is contradictory.

leadcounsel
February 9, 2013, 08:50 PM
I guess somebody should have told this guy to never bring a knife to a gun fight...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75RTkGbiJpk

Hardly a fair comparison.

1. The attacker had an 8"-10" Kbar style knife.
2. None of the cops were willing to use deadly force, despite having long guns. Any one of them could have stopped the knife attacker long before he closed on them.
3. The attacker got in several repeated deep stabs on a prone victim. A 3" blade would have been much less effective, even if you could get into that position.
4. The attacker was on the offensive, not the defensive, against people who were trying to NOT injure or shoot him. It would have ended differently if the cops WANTED to injure or kill him. They merely would have shot him or buttstroked him and it would have been over.

It takes some serious training to be good with a knife.

blaisenguns
February 9, 2013, 09:52 PM
I carry a LCP in a pocket holster, No issues as long as the pockets on the shorts are ok. I tried an IWB holster but it had a tendency to ride up and fall out (not good).

gossamer
February 10, 2013, 11:31 AM
Only a knife - eh, not so much.

If you INSIST on just carrying a knife, and only wear shoes, shorts, and socks, then you'll need some sort of clipdraw for your waistband.


Can't believe that you couldn't figure that out on your own.

Where did I say I insist on only carrying a knife? Hint: I never said any such thing. I can't believe you couldn't figure that out on your own through basic reading comprehension.

Most people would agree that any 3" blade, while better than nothing, is not a very serious or effective SD weapon.

Have you conducted a poll, or is this just more of you substituting your opinion for other people's judgement?


A vicious dog or violent armed person will not effectively be stopped by a 3" blade.

Again, your generalization.


I carry a small belly pouch, with a color copy of my DL and CPL and a G27 with hollowpoints. Don't even notice the extra 1lb of weight. Your body will quickly adjust to the weight.

I wouldn't be lecturing others about their judgement of defensive carry tools if i was the guy with a Glock in his butt pack, not trying to offend, that's just my insight. (Tongue in cheek. Get it?)


If it happens to make your run harder slightly, then look it as great training. When you run a race for real, you'll feel that much lighter because you can leave it in the car.

Without going down the rabbit hole, the science says it doesn't work that way.

If you're too obsessed with your training run time to care that carrying a gun may add a few seconds of time per mile, then I'd suggest re-prioritizing your life. What's more important? Self defense and a 6 minute mile...I'm not trying to offend, just offer my insight.

You've previously demonstrated that you don't much care for someone else's judgement about their own situation. Telling someone to re-prioritze their life so they can make the false choice between personal security and personal responsibility isn't "insight" - it's egotism.

Just because you own a hammer doesn't mean every task is carpentry.

leadcounsel
February 10, 2013, 01:42 PM
Well Gossamer, you've asked questions that I've tried to help with, but you don't like the answer. You've asked about non-firing weapons and I've given you MY opinion - which has been developed from years of trying to crack this very nut.

Weapons come in limited flavors - you may read this as condescending. It's not meant to be. Bludgeoning, cutting/stabbing, and projectiles.

Staying within the limits of practicality for running, that eliminates most bludgeoning weapons, other than a small bo staff that you could run with, maybe slung to your back or something.... it also elminates knives over 3.5" for most regions due to laws, which most locals prohibit anything larger than 3"-4". I have trained by running with a pack and had a 3.25" knife strapped to the shoulder harness of the pack. (But I also carried a handgun in the pack - which is admittedly too slow to draw.). So practically speaking, you're left with small knives, small/light concealable handguns, or OC spray (or maybe even a taser...)

You mentioned OC spray. I can say it is very effective on most people, with first hand experience. Due to stray dogs, when I walk my dogs, I also carry a can of OC spray that has a nice 'fogger' spray. It's about the size of a water bottle, and would fit in one of those fanny pack style devices.

If you're concerned about dogs attacking you, and if you've never seen dogs fight, they are unbelievably quick and would be a difficult target to 'hit' with conventional weapons. The trick must be situational awareness, which means no headphones and loud music, so you can defend before the dog gets to you. With dogs especially, distance is your friend.

I'm merely offering suggestions, no need to get pissy. Of course this is MY experience offering to YOU to help YOU. Don't take it so personally when someone disagrees with you.

beatledog7
February 10, 2013, 02:35 PM
If you're that fast over distances up to 20 miles, why not just run away?

But seriously, what "I'm out running" scenarios can you dream up that have you legitimately drawing a weapon of some kind rather than just outrunning the bad guy? For that matter, show me the bad guy who randomly goes after the obviously fit adult male dressed in running gear, churning out 7:20 miles, and obviously not carrying a wad of cash or anything else of value because--duh--he's out running. That bad guy could, and will, choose a much softer and probably more lucrative target.

Dogs don't think that way, and they are faster than even the OP, but they don't like pepper spray: at least most don't.

The only time a fast and fit male runner is really vulnerable is when he runs past blind corners and such (and most of those are avoidable) and when he stops. Having a gun readily accessible once you reach home might make sense in case you get followed, but if you can't figure out that you're being followed and aren't wise enough to not go home in such cases but go into a public place instead, then there's little I can offer.

gossamer
February 10, 2013, 03:54 PM
But seriously, what "I'm out running" scenarios can you dream up that have you legitimately drawing a weapon of some kind rather than just outrunning the bad guy? For that matter, show me the bad guy who randomly goes after the obviously fit adult male dressed in running gear, churning out 7:20 miles, and obviously not carrying a wad of cash or anything else of value because--duh--he's out running. That bad guy could, and will, choose a much softer and probably more lucrative target.

Dogs don't think that way, and they are faster than even the OP, but they don't like pepper spray: at least most don't.

I'm not sure if this is addressed to me or not. Nonetheless, you raise a good point. My situational awareness - having run this route roughly 300 times in the last two years at all times of day and evening without even something as "valuable" as a cheap music player - tells me that the threats deadly enough to merit lethal force are not as likely as threats that warrant non-lethal force. That situational awareness is why I'm posting in this non-firearm forum.

The greatest likelihood that my awareness of the situation informs me of is the unleashed dogs I spoke of in my very first post.

Which is why I've repeated the thanks from people who suggested the Kimber item.

Recon Ron
February 10, 2013, 05:04 PM
Tape your nipples and buy this:

http://www.hillpeoplegear.com/Portals/21/SmithCart/Images/rkb1.jpg

Carrying a gun became a lot more practical.

beatledog7
February 10, 2013, 05:14 PM
Recon, that would produce really laughable tan lines this spring.

Recon Ron
February 10, 2013, 05:18 PM
Recon, that would produce really laughable tan lines this spring.

Men need support too!

heeler
February 12, 2013, 02:48 PM
Gossamer...I carry my Kershaw Skyline knife.
Light,the easiest flipper balde I have found,and the G-10 scales are very grippy even with sweaty hands.
At a certain park I carry my Kel-Tec P32.

Stress_Test
February 17, 2013, 10:44 AM
I've pondered the same question about how to carry while running, and never did come up with any good answers, for the summer time anyway. Winter time I might be able to put my LCR in my jacket pocket, but it would get annoying real quick constantly slapping against my torso. And I wouldn't quite trust the pocket stitching to hold up to mile after mile of having the gun's weight bouncing up and down in there.

In the summer time, pocket carry is out. Belt carry is no good, no belt with running shorts and would chafe like crazy anyway. Thought about a belly band (?) or something elastic but wouldn't trust the gun and everything to stay put when running. Thought about a shoulder holster worn under the shirt, but as the OP said, when you sweat and soak the shirt, any object concealed underneath will be plain as day; and I live in the southeast, so most any run in the summer months means looking like you jumped in a lake with your clothes on. Also means I wouldn't want to wear a gun against my body cause it'd be drenched in sweat for long durations.

The only other option I can think of would be a fanny pack of some sort, BUT, ironically that may make you more of a target for mugging because people would assume you've got a wallet and/or cash in there. May be able to hide it somewhat under a baggy shirt though, but not perfect.

It's a tough dilemma regardless.

bayesian
February 17, 2013, 10:54 PM
As a runner that has to deal with GA summers, I'll say that I'm not carrying a darned thing. I'm going to assume that the types of things that i'm likely to encounter are, for the period that I'm running, manageable. Sometimes in life, you've gotta balance your risks and benefits. I'm running through some neighborhoods that aren't the best, but it is clear that I'm not a great target (what are they going to take?), and if there's a stray savage dog, then I guess I've decided that the cost of carrying something in the event that this happens is greater than the benefit. I'm guessing that even through the areas I'm running, that my risks are higher for either an 'adverse cardiac event' or being hit by a car, than being attacked by a dog or robbed.

All of the data that I have definitely supports this, so I run with my New Balance shorts with a ICE phone number written on the tab on the shorts, dry fit shirt, single key in my socks, and nothing else. 15 years and this has been fine.

Ehtereon11B
February 17, 2013, 11:57 PM
I have a waistline (dare I say it Fannypack) that I slip my ID, house key, gym card, etc. into when going on runs or workouts. Fits a small NAA .22Mag perfectly without bouncing around too much. Better than pepper spray and way better than nothing.

conw
February 18, 2013, 07:47 AM
Thought about a belly band (?) or something elastic but wouldn't trust the gun and everything to stay put when running.

(OP, sorry for thread drift... but I think the original topic is pretty well covered right?)

You might be surprised what can be achieved with some tweaking. The Galco Underwraps is pretty darn good for anything short of sprints.

Using a running style like pose running (library.crossfit.com/free/pdf/64_07_PoseRun_Techniques.pdf) helps since you smooth out your gait a lot.

If flopping was an issue I do know of one definite way to solve it. Grappling shorts are made with a very strong elastic band that secures two different ways with velcro, plus a draw-string.

For example I have a brand of shorts called Fighting Sports, made for grappling. They would work fine for running - very cool, wicking, quick-dry material, and some spandex sections for mobility (along the sides). Also built very tough.

http://product_images_em.s3.amazonaws.com/power-flex-fight-shorts/product/full/power-flex-fight-shorts.jpg

They really help concealment as well as retention using a belly-band. If you really wanted to make concealment work, I can almost guarantee that a belly band plus grappling shorts would work for running. But you can't know if you don't try!

Stress_Test
February 18, 2013, 12:12 PM
Interesting idea about the shorts.


One side thing I thought of and wanted to mention; we've been saying that when running you're not likely to be a mugger target because you're not likely carrying anything valuable,

BUT

the other danger is that you could be targeted by a group of punks who are bored with nothing better to do, and decide it would be "fun" to assault you. I live close to a high school and this can be a problem from a car full of teenagers. I've been harassed a couple of times but fortunately it didn't go beyond that.

(and remember teenagers are young and can be fit too, and they may be able to catch you!)

Matno
February 18, 2013, 12:17 PM
Since you asked about SD and not firearms specifically, I've got a pepper sprayer that is about the size and weight of a good-size pen. With a horizontal carrier/holster, it's easily as comfortable as my iPod nano...

leadcounsel
February 18, 2013, 12:30 PM
the other danger is that you could be targeted by a group of punks who are bored with nothing better to do, and decide it would be "fun" to assault you. I live close to a high school and this can be a problem from a car full of teenagers. I've been harassed a couple of times but fortunately it didn't go beyond that.


Yep, there is a game punks and gangs play, and that is to beat up or even kill a random person. An unarmed runner may pose as a nice challenge...

beatledog7
February 18, 2013, 12:37 PM
Yep, there is a game punks and gangs play, and that is to beat up or even kill a random person. An unarmed runner may pose as a nice challenge...

If pressed, I can outrun just about any punk you can throw at me. A group of them? Easier to outsmart than outrun. If one worries bout gangs, he should always run in commercial areas where there are many people around.

Dogs are another story.

hso
February 18, 2013, 12:41 PM
I'm running through some neighborhoods that aren't the best, but it is clear that I'm not a great target

baysian,

A buddy of mine though the same. While stopped waiting for traffic to clear he was attacked and stabbed in the arm by a guy that came off a stoop. No other reason than being on "his" corner and not from "there". Long odds on that happening, but not vanishingly so.

I do think that most runners can run away from most trouble, BUT that doesn't mean that anyone should assume that they're not a target just because they don't have anything of value showing. Remember that someone in a sketchy neighborhood doesn't know you don't have a credit card and phone and a few bucks for rehydration out of sight in your shorts OR that you obviously not being from the neighborhood aren't a target to mess with (especially in you've set yourself apart by running/biking).

lobo9er
February 18, 2013, 03:34 PM
Hard to run away when someone hits you in the knee with a 2x4.
All self defense situations are long shots and probably wont happen to you or me. But they happen all the time to some buddy.

Shadow 7D
February 18, 2013, 03:49 PM
Kel Tec P32, it doesn't get much smaller than that

jaguarxk120
February 18, 2013, 05:09 PM
What about a walking stick made from a old golf club. Use a driver with a carbon fiber shaft and remove the head. I have on that weighs just 4.9 oz. with the grip. It is my understanding that the carbon fiber shafts are unbreakable. But the main thing it gives you distance from a attacker.

hso
February 18, 2013, 10:04 PM
understanding that the carbon fiber shafts are unbreakable

incorrect, but it doesn't have to last long.

jaguarxk120
February 19, 2013, 08:28 AM
I was thinking of the golf club shaft as a thrusting weapon rather than a striking one.

lpsharp88
February 19, 2013, 08:42 PM
How about a Surefire E2D LED Defender? 3.7 ounces, 200 lumens, and has a strike bezel. Shine an attacker in the eyes, strike them in the face, and run off. Shouldn't have to worry about any weapons laws applying, since it's a light. I know it's expensive, but Surefires are very well made.
http://www.surefire.com/illumination/flashlights/e2dl.html

JShirley
February 19, 2013, 09:18 PM
Strike bezels are gimmicks. Any good 2-cell tac light is fine.

lpsharp88
February 19, 2013, 09:21 PM
Gimmick or not, I can't think of too many people that would welcome getting hit by one

JShirley
February 19, 2013, 10:33 PM
The point is, that any similarly sized light is fine, crennelated bezel or not. :)

John

Ehtereon11B
February 20, 2013, 12:21 AM
Strike bezels are gimmicks.

Negative. I have used mine to great effect. A little bit of force is good for getting someone's attention. Lots of force makes it better than a club. I have a Novatac SPL-120 and I have had to get blood out of the bezel once or twice.

JShirley
February 20, 2013, 01:23 AM
Again, the point being that any standard bezel delivers an effective strike. The "strike bezel" is tailored for the folks who didn't understand small flashlights already made an effective impact tool.

The Highlander
February 21, 2013, 07:09 PM
Perhaps a waved Spyderco in a speeddialer kydex sheath? Delica is smaller though the Matriarch 2 and Endura in FRN are pretty solid self-defense options. I've carried my ghetto-waved Tasman salt almost every time I've gone running and it never prints/gets in the way. Most of my running shorts come sans pockets so I just keep it in the waistband. Any brand will work fine, but I've found the lightweight FRN knives are thinner/lighter than most other options. If you're in a state that allows it, perhaps an Izula or something similar in a neck sheath. A small Kabar TDI in your waistband might work as well if you wear a baggier shirt.

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