opinions on small 9mm pistols?


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tuj
February 5, 2013, 08:14 PM
Hi fellow shooters!

I am in the market for a small 9mm pistol. Single-stack, slim and small.

What do you guys like in this department? Considering the PF9, P239, etc. open to others.

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JDGray
February 5, 2013, 08:21 PM
CW9! Best bang for your buck in 9mm carry.
P239 is a top heavy pig, but does carry well. I stopped looking for the perfect carry gun after buying my CW9;)

Girodin
February 5, 2013, 08:28 PM
There are several good options. A number of factors can help narrow the field:

How much are you willing to spend

How small do you want to go? Is it a case of the smaller the better or are you willing to take more size for a gun you can shoot and run better?

Do you have a preference for a certain design, i.e. SA/DA, single action only, striker fired, etc.

Just of the top of my head there following are guns I would consider:

Kahr: K9, CW9, P9, CM9, PM9, MK9 etc (I really like the PM9/CM9 if small is a top priority)

Sig: P938, P239

S&W: Shield

Springfield: EMP, XDs,

Walther: PPS (I really like this one)

Ruger: LC9

I'm sure there are more I'm not thinking of


All of the above are viable options. Some are more proven than others. It is more a matter of personal tastes and which attributes one favors than one being per se better than another.

For a primary, belt carried gun, I really like the PPS and the EMP. The Walther is an underrated gun IMHO.

meanmrmustard
February 5, 2013, 08:28 PM
Just from reading, videos, handling, and the new one I'm getting Friday...

I suggest, if you can find it, a S&W Shield in 9x19.:)

1858
February 5, 2013, 08:35 PM
P239 is a top heavy pig, but does carry well.

I use a P239 for CC and I see no reason to look for something else in 9mm Luger. It's extremely accurate, ergonomic and reliable, and as you say "it does carry well", but I can see why it's not for everyone ... nothing is.

kbbailey
February 5, 2013, 08:39 PM
I don't own one, but I like the looks of a Sig 938.

tuj
February 5, 2013, 08:40 PM
Do you have a preference for a certain design, i.e. SA/DA, single action only, striker fired, etc.

I like DA/SA, or striker, either with a decent trigger. No SAO. Probably the biggest factor for me is a decent trigger.

wow6599
February 5, 2013, 08:40 PM
Another vote for the PM/CM series from Khar.
I have a PM9 that I won't part with......my wife had a CM9 that was stolen.

Great "pocket" 9's.

franco45
February 5, 2013, 08:48 PM
I too vote for the Kahr CM9 and CW9. I own both. They are very accurate and there isn't much felt recoil.

toivo
February 5, 2013, 08:51 PM
A P239 and PF-9 are two very different animals. The SIG is larger and heavier but much more comfortable to shoot and will last several lifetimes. The Kel-Tec carries like it isn't even there, but shooting it is like having firecrackers go off in your hand. It will wear out eventually, but Kel-Tecs are lifetime warranteed to the original owner, and they will make it good even if they have to replace the whole gun.

I know nothing about Kahrs, but a lot of people like them.

You might also consider the Beretta Nano.

jimbo555
February 5, 2013, 08:52 PM
Kahr or s&w shield. I have the lc9,and it is reliable but the trigger takes getting used too.

kokapelli
February 5, 2013, 08:52 PM
It would be a mistake to pick any one of them without shooting them first.

C0untZer0
February 5, 2013, 08:54 PM
Rohrbaugh R9
Caliber:9mm
Barrel:2.9in
Length:5.2in
Height:3.7in
Weight:13.5oz
Capacity:6+1 Rounds

Boberg XR9-S (Shorty)
Caliber:9mm
Barrel:3.35in
Length:5.1in
Height:3.7in
Weight:17.5oz
Capacity:7+1 Rounds

Kahr PM9 / CM9
Caliber:9mm
Barrel:3.1in
Length: 5.42in
Height: 4.0in
Slide Width: .90in
Weight: Pistol 14 ounces, Magazine 1.9 ounces
Capacity: 6+1

Kahr MK9
Caliber:9mm
Barrel:3.0in
Length: 5.3in
Height: 4.0in
Slide Width: .90in
Weight: Pistol 22.1 ounces, Magazine 1.9 ounces
Capacity: 6+1

The MK9 is only slightly larger than the Boberg but since it's an all-steel pistol it's heavier than the Kahrs or Rohrbaugh. Some people consider a little too heavy for pocket carry.

The guns start to creep up in size after the Rohrbaugh, Boberg and Kahrs until you're all the way up to the 6.29" for the Glock 26

SIG SAUER P290
Caliber: 9mm
Barrel: 2.9in
Length: 5.5in
Height: 3.9in - magazine for P290 basically sits flush and doesn't add height to the pistol.
Width: 0.9in - 1.1in w/slide catch
Weight: 20.5 ounces w/magazine
Capacity: 6+1

Diamondback DB9
Caliber:9mm
Barrel:3.0in
Length:5.60in
Height: 4.0in
Width:0.80in
Weight:11oz
Capacity:6+1 Rounds

Kimber Solo
Caliber:9mm
Barrel:2.7in
Length:5.5in
Height:3.9in
Weight:17oz
Capacity:6+1 Rounds

Beretta Nano
Caliber:9mm
Barrel:3.07in
Length: 5.63in
Height: 4.17in
Width: .90in
Weight: 17.67 ounces
Capacity: 6+1

Ruger LC9
Caliber:9mm
Barrel:3.12in
Length: 6.0in
Height: 4.5in
Slide Width: .90in
Weight: 17.10 ounces
Capacity: 7+1

WYO
February 5, 2013, 08:56 PM
The smaller the gun, the more it needs testing, evalutation and a break-in period before going live for personal protection. The smaller guns also can be more ammunition and lubrication sensitive and less forgiving with form errors. The Glock 26/S&W Shield sized guns seem to be the smallest you can go without a lot of concern about these things.

C0untZer0
February 5, 2013, 09:00 PM
I bought a Rorhbaugh and I really like the little pistol:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=172996&stc=1&d=1349558876
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=172997&stc=1&d=1349558876

Here is my range report on my R9:


http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=692288&highlight=r9

wow6599
February 5, 2013, 09:03 PM
The smaller the gun, the more it needs testing, evalutation and a break-in period before going live for personal protection. The smaller guns also can be more ammunition and lubrication sensitive and less forgiving with form errors. The Glock 26/S&W Shield sized guns seem to be the smallest you can go without a lot of concern about these things.

Please explain.

meanmrmustard
February 5, 2013, 09:05 PM
The smaller the gun, the more it needs testing, evalutation and a break-in period before going live for personal protection. The smaller guns also can be more ammunition and lubrication sensitive and less forgiving with form errors. The Glock 26/S&W Shield sized guns seem to be the smallest you can go without a lot of concern about these things.
You talking about short cycling or what? I'm confused.

Sebastian the Ibis
February 5, 2013, 09:05 PM
Since you did not specify 9mm luger, I would recommend a p-64.

hfl73
February 5, 2013, 09:18 PM
The Smith and Wesson 3913 is popular and considered a timeless classic for single stack, 9mm. Even though they are no longer manufactured they can be found at a decent price.

xxjumbojimboxx
February 5, 2013, 09:28 PM
No ones mentioned the Ruger SR9C...

I have one, Its the first 9mm I've bought... Ever...Since then i got into collecting nines.. Still my favorite... and Ive gone through a lot of nines... probably 5 of which were pocket sized.

EDIT... Oh, single stack.. my bad.. Duh..

wow6599
February 5, 2013, 09:48 PM
No ones mentioned the Ruger SR9C...

I have one, Its the first 9mm I've bought... Ever...Since then i got into collecting nines.. Still my favorite... and Ive gone through a lot of nines... probably 5 of which were pocket sized.

Which other 5 did you like less?

meanmrmustard
February 5, 2013, 09:53 PM
Since you did not specify 9mm luger, I would recommend a p-64.
If that were the case, I'd recommend the CZ82.

beatledog7
February 5, 2013, 10:11 PM
Since you did not specify 9mm luger, I would recommend a p-64.


Let's not forget then that the .380 is also a 9mm round.

WYO
February 5, 2013, 10:16 PM
You talking about short cycling or what? I'm confused.

You can read the forums on any of the micro nines (ok, maybe not Rohrbaugh) and see all the horror stories. Failures to feed. Failures to eject. Double feeds. People think they can buy a 9mm micro gun and treat it like a Glock 17 right out of the box. It doesnít work that way. It is a 35,000 psi round and the small guns operate at the extreme limits of firearms design. The nines canít be designed like a pot metal .25 from back in the day and be expected to hold up. They have stiff recoil springs and tight tolerances. Try the slide to frame fit on a new Sig P938 or a Beretta Nano. They come out of the box as tight as a tuned 1911. They have a tendency to like heavier ammo at higher velocities. They need to rely on grip and body pressure to provide some resistance for correct operation to make up for the lack of gun mass. They really like lubrication. (I am not a Kahr guy because of a bad experience, but a buddy with a CM9 suggested I break in my P938 like he did his Kahr, with lube dripping out of the gun and down my arms.) It just takes a little bit of effort to break them in and learn their characteristics.

The sights on my P938 are awesome and make it a genuine 25+ yard gun even though I only can get 2 fingers on the grip. But, that doesnít mean I should expect it to run through a 600 round pistol class without cleaning like a Glock. If I can get through 50 rounds of 124 grain Gold Dots without an issue, I am happy and donít try to push it. I donít have 50 rounds worth of magazines for it. Some people get upset because they expect it to function through the 600 round class without cleaning. The complaints seem to drop off noticeably with Glock 26/S&W Shield sized guns.

YMMV

breakingcontact
February 5, 2013, 10:57 PM
S&W: Shield

This.

heeler
February 5, 2013, 11:09 PM
There are so many good ones out there to choose from today.
Even more so than three years ago when I bought my superb PM9.
Of course most can be handled but not all can be fired unless you have a lot of friends that own them or have a place that rents them.
As in most major ticket/dollar purchases reading owner reviews is very helpful.

Teachu2
February 5, 2013, 11:10 PM
It would be a mistake to pick any one of them without shooting them first.
Amen to that!

srtolly
February 5, 2013, 11:20 PM
Find someplace to try them out. A lot of people don't like a KelTec PF9, I like mine for carry. Easy to pocket carry, takes a little getting used to the trigger, mine has seen several hundred rounds down the barrel and has never failed except 1 time due to a bad crimp on one of my reloads.

Nite Ryder
February 5, 2013, 11:39 PM
About three months ago I bought a Diamondback DB9. I've shot it several times but to tell the truth I'm not all that impressed. It's small, just a bit larger than my KelTec 380, and at 11 oz you hardly know it is in your pocket. I still use my Kimber Ultra Carry for an everyday carry gun, and keep either the KelTec or Diamondback in a hip pocket for a back up gun. The recoil of the Diamondback is quite a bit, and I just can't shoot it as well as I can the Kimber. I'm speaking of accuracy beyond 15 yards...

crackerjack
February 6, 2013, 03:00 AM
Take a look and feel the SCCY model CPX-2 it's fairly new but I'm very impressed with the one I purchased.

xxjumbojimboxx
February 6, 2013, 03:10 AM
Which other 5 did you like less?
Kel tec p11
Kel tec pf9
Ruger Lc9
Bersa thunder Ultra Compact 9(i did really like the trigger on this one.)

Er.. I guess it was four. Those are the ones I've owned... The fifth would be my sr9c :)

s9601694
February 6, 2013, 10:39 AM
Amen to that!
I bought my Kahr CM9 online without even ever touching one.. Love at first sight, great little shooter, only i think my wife is stealing her from me...

PGT
February 6, 2013, 10:56 AM
I just bought an SCCY CPX-1 and a Bersa Thunder Ultra Compact Pro 9. The Bersa is larger (13+1) and not a single stack but has a really nice trigger. Its also SAO/DAO. The SCCY is DAO and the trigger is heavy (good thing in CC of course). I think I might sell the SCCY....I really want a Boberg XR9-S.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y124/PatagonianGT/GunStuff/th_IMG_0480.jpg (http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y124/PatagonianGT/GunStuff/IMG_0480.jpg)

kokapelli
February 6, 2013, 11:21 AM
I just bought an SCCY CPX-1 and a Bersa Thunder Ultra Compact Pro 9. The Bersa is larger (13+1) and not a single stack but has a really nice trigger. Its also SAO/DAO. The SCCY is DAO and the trigger is heavy (good thing in CC of course). I think I might sell the SCCY....I really want a Boberg XR9-S.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y124/PatagonianGT/GunStuff/th_IMG_0480.jpg (http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y124/PatagonianGT/GunStuff/IMG_0480.jpg)
What don't you like about the SCCY?

autospike
February 6, 2013, 11:38 AM
1) Shield
2) PPS
3) PM9

Alnamvet68
February 6, 2013, 11:54 AM
There are a number of adequate sub-compacts out there, but after looking, handling, and shooting most of them, I have distilled it down to two, and only two, that pass my stringent criteria....Walther PPS and the S&W Shield. I chose the PPS, and the primary reason is the accessory rail, and the readily apparent of why the Walther PPS costs about $150.00 more then a Shield. That said, if you never plan on using the accessory rail, and just don't want to spend the extra cash, then the Shield will do fine.

Fishbed77
February 6, 2013, 12:28 PM
I love my Kahr CM9.

It's the right size and has been 100% reliable. Also only cost me $327 new.

silicosys4
February 6, 2013, 12:37 PM
You can read the forums on any of the micro nines (ok, maybe not Rohrbaugh) and see all the horror stories. Failures to feed. Failures to eject. Double feeds. People think they can buy a 9mm micro gun and treat it like a Glock 17 right out of the box. It doesn’t work that way. It is a 35,000 psi round and the small guns operate at the extreme limits of firearms design. The nines can’t be designed like a pot metal .25 from back in the day and be expected to hold up. They have stiff recoil springs and tight tolerances. Try the slide to frame fit on a new Sig P938 or a Beretta Nano. They come out of the box as tight as a tuned 1911. They have a tendency to like heavier ammo at higher velocities. They need to rely on grip and body pressure to provide some resistance for correct operation to make up for the lack of gun mass. They really like lubrication. (I am not a Kahr guy because of a bad experience, but a buddy with a CM9 suggested I break in my P938 like he did his Kahr, with lube dripping out of the gun and down my arms.) It just takes a little bit of effort to break them in and learn their characteristics.

The sights on my P938 are awesome and make it a genuine 25+ yard gun even though I only can get 2 fingers on the grip. But, that doesn’t mean I should expect it to run through a 600 round pistol class without cleaning like a Glock. If I can get through 50 rounds of 124 grain Gold Dots without an issue, I am happy and don’t try to push it. I don’t have 50 rounds worth of magazines for it. Some people get upset because they expect it to function through the 600 round class without cleaning. The complaints seem to drop off noticeably with Glock 26/S&W Shield sized guns.

YMMV
There are some valid points in there, but most of the problems you are talking about were design flaws in older pistols, such as the tiny .45 1911's and such that were designed as bigger pistols then modified...they do have a lot of problems.
The newer pocket semi's are designed from the ground up to be smaller and are not "at the limit of their designs".
The reliability issues are by and large a thing of the past.
It sounds like your 938 has some issues that need attention, you should be able to get more than 50 rounds out without any issues.

I have a few "pocket" semi's, both 9mm and .40S&W. Some of them have had issues, some of them haven't. Some designs are better than others.
for a "pocket" gun that NEEDS to go bang when its put into service, I would rather trust a small .38 or .357 revolver.

PGT
February 6, 2013, 01:24 PM
What don't you like about the SCCY?

it just doesn't feel good in my hand. Compared to the Bersa, it has a long trigger pull. Overall, it looks like a nicely made gun and one can't argue with the price. I put it up for sale here on THR an hour or so ago....if nobody is interested, I'll keep it but if I can sell it, I'll order a Boberg.

kokapelli
February 6, 2013, 01:41 PM
Ok thanks, I have never seen one and just wondered about it.

I have had some good reliable guns hat just didn't fit me either and ended up selling them too.

Girodin
February 6, 2013, 02:00 PM
If that were the case, I'd recommend the CZ82.

Well, the cz 82 wouldn't fit the op's requirements of either single stack or small. It is double stack. It is also about the size of a G19. I like the cz but honestly there are a whole bunch of really good 9x19s that are that size or smaller. My experience is they all have less felt recoil too since the cz 82 is blowback.

meanmrmustard
February 6, 2013, 05:09 PM
Well, the cz 82 wouldn't fit the op's requirements of either single stack or small. It is double stack. It is also about the size of a G19. I like the cz but honestly there are a whole bunch of really good 9x19s that are that size or smaller. My experience is they all have less felt recoil too since the cz 82 is blowback.
I'm more commenting on it VS the P64.

The CZ carries more rounds. But then you're thicker, not meeting requirements. For the record, it recoils like a pillow. The P64, not so much. Prolly due to weight.

You move up to a G19; more power, roughly same size, more capacity. But still not meeting requirements.

My point was: If you're going to give up the power of a 9x19, might as well carry MORE of the weaker 9x18 rather than the same as say a LC9 or the like as you would in the P64. I should've specified this.

Sock Puppet
February 6, 2013, 06:44 PM
I'm quite fond of my Kahr CW9, but there are many great recommendations in this thread. Go fondle them and see what you think.

dcar_roll
February 6, 2013, 07:18 PM
I like my Taurus PT-709 Slim. Nice gun for a good Price.

helitack32f1
February 6, 2013, 09:02 PM
I will be seriously looking at the new Springfield XD-s in 9mm when it comes out.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/01/foghorn/by-request-springfield-xds-9mm/

CPshooter
February 6, 2013, 11:00 PM
My Walther PPS is extremely concealable, reliable, AND as shootable as my 1911. Scary accurate!

XDs in 9mm would be a close 2nd based on what I've seen with the .45 version.

Girodin
February 6, 2013, 11:50 PM
For the record, it recoils like a pillow. The P64, not so much. Prolly due to weight.

How much felt recoil there is on a CZ-82 will depend a lot on the recoil spring that is in it. Felt recoil is fairly subjective. I will just say this, the blow back gun has more felt recoil to me than either my glock 26 which is appreciable smaller or my G19 which is roughly the same size or any of my other 9x19 guns that fall in that size range. Further there is a reason it is a common modification to change the recoil spring to a heavier wolf spring. I'm not saying the recoil is painful or anything, recoil to me is more about split times.

At any rate the CZ simply doesn't meet the OP's requirements and if one is going to go that big it drastically opens up the competition.

If you're going to give up the power of a 9x19, might as well carry MORE of the weaker 9x18 rather than the same as say a LC9 or the like as you would in the P64. I should've specified this.

There's is logic to that argument, although there has to be a stopping point somewhere to the more rounds is better for a carry gun when one factors in other attributes. More to the point, to my mind if you are going to give up that much in size and weight then why not simply get a 9x19 that is more powerful, holds more or a similar number of rounds, has less felt recoil (at least to me), is lighter, has a wider holster selection, has more readily available mags and parts, etc. I love the CZ, I just don't see its place in this discussion given what the OP seems to be looking for. The other small 9x18 guns might warrant discussion in that they are generally speaking what the OP is after, a small, thin, carry gun. That said the P64 has such a horrible trigger it fails on the OP's request for a good trigger. As neat of a little gun as a Makarov is, there is no way I pick one over a Walther PPS or a bunch of other more modern guns unless money is a factor. even then I think there are other 9x19 guns that can be had for that money that make more sense to me.

To the OP, your feelings on triggers may best help to narrow things down.

Deer_Freak
February 7, 2013, 12:09 AM
Small pocket sized pistols are a crap shoot. No matter who's gun you buy you might get a good one, you can get a lemon just as well. Any manufacturer will admit the pocket sized guns come back more than any gun in their line up.

I own a P-11. It shoots great now but to get it running right required polishing the moving parts with emery cloth. I finally got it shooting right with a White trigger stop. I also have a P-3AT that went back and forth to Kel Tec for 5 months before it was shooting right. Plus I ran at least 500 rounds of ammo through the gun during this period. I can not recommend any Kel Tec product after these experiences.

meanmrmustard
February 7, 2013, 01:38 AM
How much felt recoil there is on a CZ-82 will depend a lot on the recoil spring that is in it. Felt recoil is fairly subjective. I will just say this, the blow back gun has more felt recoil to me than either my glock 26 which is appreciable smaller or my G19 which is roughly the same size or any of my other 9x19 guns that fall in that size range. Further there is a reason it is a common modification to change the recoil spring to a heavier wolf spring. I'm not saying the recoil is painful or anything, recoil to me is more about split times.

At any rate the CZ simply doesn't meet the OP's requirements and if one is going to go that big it drastically opens up the competition.



There's is logic to that argument, although there has to be a stopping point somewhere to the more rounds is better for a carry gun when one factors in other attributes. More to the point, to my mind if you are going to give up that much in size and weight then why not simply get a 9x19 that is more powerful, holds more or a similar number of rounds, has less felt recoil (at least to me), is lighter, has a wider holster selection, has more readily available mags and parts, etc. I love the CZ, I just don't see its place in this discussion given what the OP seems to be looking for. The other small 9x18 guns might warrant discussion in that they are generally speaking what the OP is after, a small, thin, carry gun. That said the P64 has such a horrible trigger it fails on the OP's request for a good trigger. As neat of a little gun as a Makarov is, there is no way I pick one over a Walther PPS or a bunch of other more modern guns unless money is a factor. even then I think there are other 9x19 guns that can be had for that money that make more sense to me.

To the OP, your feelings on triggers may best help to narrow things down.
I'm not comparing the CZ to a modern 9x19, I'm comparing it to the P64.

Neither of which seem to be specified as combatants for the OPs carry weapon.

The CZ is carryable, I've done it. Not the best.

I'm the opposite: I think the 26 recoils more due to its weight. Recoil is very subjective.

I'm not suggesting the CZ is better than a trim 9x19. I'm suggesting openly that its superior to the P64. This is my opinion. Which, doesn't matter. I suggested the Shield.

Girodin
February 7, 2013, 02:54 AM
I'm not comparing the CZ to a modern 9x19, I'm comparing it to the P64.

I'm aware, I followed that. My point is that the CZ is better compared to modern 9x19s as it is much more similar to them in terms of size, capacity, and weight than it is to the P64. It is only closer to the P64 in terms of the cartridge and cost.

The CZ is carryable, I've done it. Not the best.

Definitely it is. I'd say given a decent holster (and there are relatively speaking few great choices) and belt its about like carrying a Glock 19. I have both.

I'm suggesting openly that its superior to the P64.

I'd agree unless size is a big concern. (although in either case I'd still go with something else).

I'm the opposite: I think the 26 recoils more due to its weight. Recoil is very subjective.

FELT recoil is subjective. And with the CZ being a blow back gun the strength of the recoil spring is going to make a pretty big difference in one's experience. Shooting my CZ along side my G26 and G19 it has never been close to be, but again a number of factors can affect how one perceives recoil. Honestly, I should probably try a wolf spring in my CZ-82. The weight difference IIRC is something like roughly 8 oz heavier than the 26 (and a G19 is less than an 1.5 ounces heavier than the 26).

Any manufacturer will admit the pocket sized guns come back more than any gun in their line up.

This is probably true. Smaller guns are more finicky by nature. However, some manufactures have forums that are largely dedicated to sharing info on doing all the final finishing work a factory should do in order to get a gun to right and others do not, just saying.

tuj
February 7, 2013, 11:10 AM
I think I'll rule out the PF9. I do like the 3913 as I have a 5906 and it's very similar. I have to say I really like that Boberg XR9, that gun is nuts! Rear-feed huh? Does it handle HP ammo ok? The Boberg is definitely more than I want to spend, but it's not out of feasibility and I have to say I'm a sucker for unique design. How's the trigger on the Boberg?

Hunter991
February 7, 2013, 11:28 AM
I also own the kahr cw9 and the cm9. Both great. Highly recommend

otasan56
February 7, 2013, 11:32 AM
I think that my G17 is small, and I carry it CCW 24/7/365

s9601694
February 7, 2013, 11:34 AM
My buddy has an XDs in .45.. From what i've seen and felt AND comparing it in size with the CM9, i'm thinking i might have to go trade in my CM9 for an XDs 9mm when it becomes available..

(UNLESS Glock comes out with a similar sized 9mm/.40)

RFMan
February 7, 2013, 11:36 AM
I own a Taurus PT709 "Slim" and a Kahr CM9. Both are small and light, though the Kahr certainly wins there. Both are great to shoot. I also have a RIA 1911 in 9mm. I REALLY like shooting that one. But I prefer to carry one of the other two. And I think my wife is going to "steal" the Kahr, after I finish breaking it in. :)

Spdracr39
February 7, 2013, 03:14 PM
I don't own one, but I like the looks of a Sig 938.
My P938 is a beautiful gun I bought it to upgrade from a bodyguard 380. The sao trigger makes it much more accurate and it is perfect for pocket carry. It is only slightly larger and is much more comfortable to shoot. I did have a FTE issue out of the box but a good cleaning and oiling and it works perfect now. Someone mentioned the SR9C which I have also but it is WAY to big for pocket carry and almost to fat for IWB but the extra bullets in a double stack are nice to have and it is also an awesome shooting pistol.

Rembrandt
February 7, 2013, 06:45 PM
Boberg is a masterpiece of engineering.....you won't hear a lot about them, haven't been out that long. Those that do have them.....are glad they do. Compare the specs to any other compact 9mm made, you'll see why.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v405/Rembrandt51/Firearms/001-1.jpg

larryh1108
February 7, 2013, 07:54 PM
I finally sold my PM9 after 5 years. It was/is a great compact 9mm. Perfect for anything you want to do if a small 9 is your choice.

I sold it and bought a Kimber Solo. Nice gun but pricey, as is the PM9. I wish they had the CW9 when I bought it. I sold it because I have XL hands (which was not a problem) but I have the thumbs forward grip and during recoil my thumb would contact the mag release, dropping the mag. At the range it was correctable but if I hadn't shot it for a while the first mag would induce a dropped mag almost every time. That would not work in a high stress SD situation, so I sold it. Too bad, it was a really nice and reliable pistol.

meanmrmustard
February 7, 2013, 08:32 PM
I finally sold my PM9 after 5 years. It was/is a great compact 9mm. Perfect for anything you want to do if a small 9 is your choice.

I sold it and bought a Kimber Solo. Nice gun but pricey, as is the PM9. I wish they had the CW9 when I bought it. I sold it because I have XL hands (which was not a problem) but I have the thumbs forward grip and during recoil my thumb would contact the mag release, dropping the mag. At the range it was correctable but if I hadn't shot it for a while the first mag would induce a dropped mag almost every time. That would not work in a high stress SD situation, so I sold it. Too bad, it was a really nice and reliable pistol.
What're ya carrying now?

larryh1108
February 7, 2013, 08:44 PM
Presently, depending on the situation, I carry an LCP or the CZ PCR. I am breaking in the Solo to replace my PM9 but am not at my personal mimimum of 500 trouble free rounds. I have not had any issues yet with it but I'm not at 500 yet. I never carried the PM9 due to dropping the mag, however, but I enjoyed it at the range.

meanmrmustard
February 7, 2013, 08:48 PM
Presently, depending on the situation, I carry an LCP or the CZ PCR. I am breaking in the Solo to replace my PM9 but am not at my personal mimimum of 500 trouble free rounds. I have not had any issues yet with it but I'm not at 500 yet.
How do you like your PCR?

larryh1108
February 7, 2013, 08:57 PM
I love the PCR. I have a lot of 9mms and it is my favorite to shoot. Reliable and accurate and only a little heavier than the Solo and PM9 but it is a little bigger as well. I didn't like the DA/SA at first but once I got used to it and carried it at half cock it was a very nice carry. The slide inside the frame fit seems to give it less felt recoil and I am the most accurate with it with all my 9mms. It is the easiest to shoot. It would be my last 9mm if I pared it down to one. That says a lot since I have several BHPs and a 1911 in 9mm. I'm still undecided on the Solo because I haven't had it very long.

C0untZer0
February 7, 2013, 09:20 PM
The Boberg is really beautifull. It's a nice gun that's for sure.


For the Rorbaugh, I know that most people do not like the heel release for the magazine, on the other hand - there is no way that magazine can be released by bumping it while carrying, and also when you're firing the R9, there is no mag release button to hit and release the magazine accidentally, nor is there a slide stop to accidentally push up on which will obviously stop the operation.

But if those aren't issues, the PM9/CM9 and MK9 are great little guns, a lot less finicky about ammo, and will stand up to +P

jimbo555
February 7, 2013, 09:22 PM
It looks like that Boberg would fall right out of a holster!

dbp
February 7, 2013, 09:33 PM
I like my Beretta Nano. I've only put 350 rds through it, but with no problems other than two FTE early on that were caused by my lack of a good grip. I put a set of Tractiongrips on it and that has made a noticeable difference in grip and control.

It is a good 10 yd and in defensive gun. I am not quite as accurate with it as I am with my G26, but that is probably the shooter more so than the gun.

Fits in the pocket nicely and just has a nice solid feel to it. I can see it getting a lot of carry time this summer.

Onmilo
February 7, 2013, 09:41 PM
I have done some shooting with a Sig P239 and think it an excellent choice in a single stack pistol.
I have a G26 Glock and use mine with G19 15 shot magazines for a package not much bigger,.

TennJed
February 7, 2013, 09:50 PM
I am a big fan on my Sig P290. Here are a few comparision pics of it with a
Taurus TCP (380)
Ruger LCP

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8182/7897655760_a80ef8bcf2.jpg

THIS IS THE "POCKET 380" TAURUS SETTING ON TOP TO GIVE YOU AN IDEA JUST HOW SMALL THE P290 IS

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8453/7897655336_31b1d315cd.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8313/7897657594_df7a89febc.jpg

C0untZer0
February 7, 2013, 10:32 PM
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=179303&stc=1&d=1360294338

C0untZer0
February 7, 2013, 10:42 PM
Do the Bobergs come with the lines in the grip like that? I don't know what to call it.. it's scalloping, its not checkering..

anyway do the Bobergs come like that?

That's one thing I wish Rohrbaugh did to the R9s at the factory, these are tiny little guns and checkering helps controlability.

meanmrmustard
February 8, 2013, 05:49 AM
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=179303&stc=1&d=1360294338
Are these even +p rated? Why does the manufacturer suggest recoil spring change every 200 rounds?

JohnBT
February 8, 2013, 08:19 AM
"Are these even +p rated? Why does the manufacturer suggest recoil spring change every 200 rounds?"

No, but +P isn't all it's cracked up to be, especially from a very short barrel. Heck, it isn't much of an improvement out of a 4" or 5" barrel - check the ammo makers' specs. Replacing the spring is recommended because it has a relatively light slide and might just wear out the spring that quickly. I paid $4.95 each for replacement springs from Rohrbaugh.

I've carried mine since early '07 and it was slightly used. Looking at the current prices, if I sold mine I'd get all of my money back. Plus some.

John

kokapelli
February 8, 2013, 08:26 AM
"Are these even +p rated? Why does the manufacturer suggest recoil spring change every 200 rounds?"

No, but +P isn't all it's cracked up to be, especially from a very short barrel. Heck, it isn't much of an improvement out of a 4" or 5" barrel - check the ammo makers' specs. Replacing the spring is recommended because it has a relatively light slide and might just wear out the spring that quickly. I paid $4.95 each for replacement springs from Rohrbaugh.

I've carried mine since early '07 and it was slightly used. Looking at the current prices, if I sold mine I'd get all of my money back. Plus some.

John
The weight of the slide has nothing to do with recoil spring wear. The number of cycles of a spring is what causes wear.

C0untZer0
February 8, 2013, 09:39 AM
There are people who have used the same spring for more than 500 rounds and have had no negative side effects from it, but bottom line the manufacturer recommends replacing the spring every 200 rounds.

It's a 5 dollar part so I don't see the big deal.

Also, it's not like I take this gun to the range and put 200 rounds through it every weekend.

It is going to sit in my pocket. I will fire maybe 3 magazines through it every other weekend to keep my skills up with it. Replacing the recoil spring every 9 or 10 months is no big deal to me.

It's not rated for Plus P but I don't even fire +P through my full sized nines so I don't see how that effects me. The round that I like to use for SD is the 147gr Winchester Ranger "T" RA9T.

http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/flash-SWFs/law_bullit.swf

So far the R9 cycles the 147gr Ranger "T" just fine, so I'm happy.

tuj
February 8, 2013, 09:42 AM
what do you guys think of the SCCY CPX-2?

Roadking Rider
February 8, 2013, 11:23 AM
CM/PM9 from Kahr.

Rembrandt
February 8, 2013, 12:06 PM
Do the Bobergs come with the lines in the grip like that? I don't know what to call it.. it's scalloping, its not checkering..

anyway do the Bobergs come like that?

Boberg's all come with the same grip design...they are available in different colors.

Since so few are in the publics hands, it may be awhile before we see aftermarket grips available. Wish Crimson Trace made some.....sure it's a matter of time.

TonyT
February 8, 2013, 12:42 PM
I purchsed a Kahr PM-9 a number of years ago before the Ruger product was introduced . I carry it in a pocket holster. My PM-9 has been reliable and I can easilly place 7 shots into a ca 3 inch group at 7 to 10 yards.

JohnBT
February 8, 2013, 05:38 PM
"The weight of the slide has nothing to do with recoil spring wear. The number of cycles of a spring is what causes wear."

Okay, you talk to Karl. :) I thought he said he was a delicate balancing act to match the size/weight of the slide to the room available for the spring. Bigger, longer lasting spring takes up more space, so you need to design a larger slide, etc.

I dunno, I only know what I read on the Rohrbaugh forum. And I've actually installed new springs in an R9 and it's a handful with the tolerances being so close.

John

WRGADog
February 8, 2013, 09:10 PM
a Beretta Nano, Kahr PM9, Kimber Solo, and Walther PPS. They are all excellent firearms, reliable, accurate, easy to maintain. I rotate carrying each of the pistols, and wouldn't part with any of the pistols. My favorite is the PPS, but IMO it is a belt gun because of its weight. The PPS can be pocket carried with the six round mag, but again it is heavy. The Nano, PM9, and Solo are each easy to conceal and pocket carry using a DeSantis Nemisis holster. I have had no problems with any of the pistols and each has ~500 rounds down range.

breakingcontact
February 9, 2013, 10:09 PM
I havent shot one but that Kimber Solo is one great looking gun. It is smaller in real life than the advertisements can relate.

larryh1108
February 9, 2013, 10:30 PM
I totally agree on the Solo being a great looking gun. It is about the size of the Kahr PM9 but the frame is alloy, not plastic so it's a tad heavier. I also like the 1911 like controls (thumb safety).

http://i342.photobucket.com/albums/o435/larryh1108/Kimber/Sololeft.jpg

tuj
February 9, 2013, 11:52 PM
I think I've narrowed it down to the 3913 and the CW9. Thoughts?

C0untZer0
February 10, 2013, 12:22 AM
I've made descisions based on controls - based on my own comfort level with the MOA.

I looked at the S&W and Beretta in the 80s and really didn't like the slide mounted flip -up safety. I ended up getting an HK P7M8.

OTOH - I know people who can't feel comfortable with a gun that doesn't have a safety on it - somehow the thought that the thing will go off with a simple pull of the trigger sends a chill down their spine.

s9601694
February 10, 2013, 08:39 AM
I think I've narrowed it down to the 3913 and the CW9. Thoughts?

Just wondering : why the cw9 and not the cm9?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

tuj
February 10, 2013, 10:14 AM
Just wondering : why the cw9 and not the cm9?

The CM9 seems a little on the 'too-small' size for me, the CW9 seems to be more the 'just-right' size.

DFM914
February 10, 2013, 01:40 PM
Beretta Nano gets my vote

Deer_Freak
February 10, 2013, 03:07 PM
Lots of people are mentioning guns that weigh 26 ounces or more. It is difficult to carry a gun that heavy unless you wear suspenders. I have a Ruger P95 that weighs 27 ounces empty. I prefer to carry the Ruger but the gun is just to big to carry all the time. In short order, you will start leaving the gun at home because it is an inconvenience.

If you have to carry a gun outside the waistband sooner or later someone is going to see the gun. Then you could very well lose a good friend. People are going to ask you "why do you need a gun in my house or business?" You might want to just give up on the idea you can get by with one gun. You need a gun you can easily carry in your pocket and a gun with some size that is fun to shoot at the range. The larger gun can double as a carry gun when you go into areas where there is an elevated risk of a bad encounter.

kokapelli
February 10, 2013, 03:37 PM
I couldn't agree more and you have just described my routine.

I almost always just pocket carry anymore.

velojym
February 10, 2013, 03:55 PM
I carry a PC9 when I leave the XD at home, and it carries like it isn't even there. It's also nicely controllable with standard pressure 9mm ammunition and hasn't had a single hiccup in a few hundred rounds so far.

C0untZer0
February 10, 2013, 04:39 PM
The Rohrbaugh R9 in a Nemesis holster drops right in my Levis front pocket, it's 18 oz fully loaded with 7 rounds f 147gr ammo and I can hardly tell it's there.

No problem getting into or out of a car, it just very unobtrusive.

gotime242
February 10, 2013, 06:50 PM
After going through 3 other carry guns, i'm absolutely happy with the CW9. I find it pretty perfect overall...

KCSemiAutoBob
February 10, 2013, 08:00 PM
Based on personal experience, I can recommend the Kahr PM9. Micro pistols are very personal things.I carried a Keltec P11 for years. Reliable, but not really very satisfactory.
Recently bought my Kahr PM9 after shooting a friend's PM9 and making ragged holes instead of ragged groups at 7 yards! That blew me away! It just fit me too well to ignore and there was one in the case available for purchase. Now more than 200 rounds through it and no problems whatsoever. I'm going to fit it with X-S Big Dot sight system for quick accuracy. Reports regarding the Kahr CW9 with conventional rifling are also encouraging, especially in price. :)

groundhog34
February 10, 2013, 08:25 PM
I have had most of them the best BY FAR considering size, workmanship, reliability and accuracy is the Rorhbaugh, but be prepared to get off $1000.00+

Soldiernurse
February 11, 2013, 12:36 AM
http://imageshack.us/a/img255/5116/photosep29193913.jpg

Bersa BP9CC
Caliber: 9MM
Sights: RR: Glock/FT: Sig
Barrel Length: 3.2"
Overall Length: 6.35"
Width: 0.94"
Height: 4.8"
Weight: 21.5oz
Capacity: 8+1
Finish: Matte Black
Additional Features:

Loaded Chamber Indicator
MIL-1913 Picatinny Rail
Slide, Frame & Trigger Checkering

Very Affordable!!!

Girodin
February 11, 2013, 04:23 AM
I have had most of them the best BY FAR considering size, workmanship, reliability and accuracy is the Rorhbaugh, but be prepared to get off $1000.00+

Start doing drills on a shot clock and accounting for accuracy and account for the results and it will start to plummet. Even more so if you induce stress. The R9 is good at being small. That is about it. Yes its well made, sure it is mechanically more than accurate enough, however IMHO it has crossed the line of diminishing returns its so small. I certainly wouldn't want one as my primary carry gun. I don't think there is an R9 owner that would rather have one in an actual gun fight than a number of the other guns listed hear. That argument is of course one that can be made all the way up the size spectrum Thus, we seek to reach a balance between a useful gun and one that we can/will carry and hide comfortably all day. I think that balance falls up the spectrum from the R9. It just gives up too much in terms of capabilities. I've never seen one in a defensive pistol shooting class. There is a reason for that.

Many (NOT ALL, for those getting ready to tell me off) R9 owners seem to be people with talisman syndrome. That is the idea that the gun is some kind of magic talisman whose presence alone keeps them safe. These people drop an R9 in the pocket and seem to think all is well. For most of them it maybe, in as much as they will never have to use the thing.

The R9 might be a viable choice for a deep cover gun or a bug but it is a pretty poor primary carry gun IMHO. Many like that it is a 9x19 that can actually fit in pockets fairly well. However, I'm of the belief, which based on training and a fair amount testing with quantifiable feedback (i.e. shot timer and accuracy), as well as force on force training, that pocket carry is far from ideal. I wouldn't want my primary gun to be in a pocket in most situations. For me results vary dramatically based on the pockets in question but a reactive draw from the pocket is anywhere from slower to MUCH slower than drawing from my belt. In one such test with a pair of jeans that is typical of what I often wear I was 1.5 seconds from a random start to first shot on target at 3 yards from my belt with a shirt, sweater and coat (what I wear a lot in the winter here). I was 4.5 IIRC drawing from a pocket holster in out of my jeans. Force on force drills also dramatically highlighted some of the limitations of pocket carry.

Pocket carry does have some advantages. It works very well when one can have their hand on the gun before hand, which in some situations one can do much more readily than with a gun on one's belt. It has some nice advantages but suffers badly in reactive drawing, which seems to me to be a relatively likely thing in a defensive situation. I tend to use pocket carry for a BUG or for select other times. Honestly though a gun that is small enough to put in a pocket is a gun that is also pretty easy to hide very well IWB.

Beyond the limitations of pocket carry, the R9 its self offers far to many compromises. It is so small it is for many people a gun that is hard to shoot and run well, much like the LCP. Add to that a rather high bore axis (again not unlike the LCP) and it is made worse. Further it has controls that are not what I'd favor. The heal release is inferior to other styles of mag release, at least in terms of speed. It lacks a slide stop/release. This is not just a matter of reloads (I'd wager that many who port an R9 as a primary don't have a reload anyways), but also for clearing certain malfunctions. Some of the models don't even have sights. At certain distances that might not be much of an issue. However, I'm reminded of Larry Corriea's article "My gun fight." The jist of it is people imagine how they will use their gun defensively and in what type of situation and tend to ignore a lot of other real possibilities and the fact is we simply cannot know or control how it will go down if we are so unfortunate as to wind up needing to use our weapons in defense. I also do not like having a defensive weapon that varies as much in terms of controls from my other main defensive handguns as does the R9. Further, I'm not wild about its trigger compared to other guns mentioned in this thread.

Take a shot timer, get off the square range, induce stress, and then shoot the R9 against some other guns, and I'm not talking about a glock 34, or even a 26, but guns like the Shield, PPS, Cw/P9, heck even the PM/CW9. Of those touting the R9, would you honestly pick it if you were going to have to defend yourself with a smaller single stack 9x19. I know I would so much rather have a PPS or the like.

Lastly, the R9 begs the question of whether it is really much if any better than some of the .380 offerings that the same size or are even smaller, and of course notably cheaper in most cases. When you give terminal ballistics from those guns an honest look I think it is a legit question for people that have decided they will sacrifice a lot of capability for size and weight. Honestly I'd rather have a tuned up mustang or sig than an R9. They are better shooters IMHO/E. I'm not certain I'd be much better off with an R9 versus an LCP, truth be told. I'd suspect the extra $800-1K spent on ammo and training would be more likely to be outcome determinative. Of course just because a gun is more expensive doesn't mean one couldn't still spend the difference on training with the more expensive gun. But for some folks it probably does, and thus I mention it.

The CM9/PM9 is about as small as I can go before I notice far too a great a drop off. Even that size gun is making some compromise. For a primary carry gun, I really think the shield, XDS, CW9, Walther PPS, etc, sized guns are about as small and as much compromise as I would care for. These guns can still be shot and run pretty well.

In sum, we all make compromises with the guns we carry. Where we decide to draw the line between what is easy to carry and conceal and what is good for fighting with is a personal decision and one upon which reasonable people can disagree, even more so when they have differing situations. However, I feel the R9 give up way to much, and I c wouldn't recommend it to others. Even if it were the gun I had settled on I wouldn't recommend it without at least addressing some of the serious limitations. Of course I wonder how many people carrying one as a primary have really evaluated it with quantifiable feedback, under stress, doing force on force, etc.

csd4682
February 11, 2013, 05:40 AM
I have owned a cw9 and pm9 and the quality of the pm9 far exceeded the cw in evey way possible. I owned the cw first and then handled the pm and instantly realized why the pm cost more. If cost isnt too big of an issue, the pm9 in my opinion is a far better choice.

JohnBT
February 11, 2013, 09:06 AM
"Pocket carry does have some advantages."

Yes, yes it does. That's likely why we're discussing "small 9mm pistols".

I'd rather have a shotgun. :) My FNP-45 USG won't fit in my pocket either.

38Mike
February 11, 2013, 11:32 AM
I recently bought a PF9 because I needed a CCW and wanted to stick to a low budget. I got a size 4 Remora holster for it and usually carry IWB just to the right of my belt buckle. Found some relaxed fit Wranglers that I can pocket carry in ( although the Remora is a little on the thick side ). I tried pocket carry with dress pants last night with no problems. This pistol really shines though with a Kangaroo holster. It's so thin and light you hardly notice it's there..

My .02 worth :)

Mike

TarDevil
February 11, 2013, 01:26 PM
I just don't like most of the micro nines, but the Sig P290 really feels great. I like the DAO trigger for carrying without a safety, and it's heavy enough to soften some recoil. I think it will be my next carry purchase, but haven't shot it yet, though, so haven't reached a final verdict.

Girodin
February 11, 2013, 02:24 PM
Yes, yes it does. That's likely why we're discussing "small 9mm pistols".

Perhaps I should have more clearly enumerated them, so as to make it more clear that pocket carry is, on a balance, inferior in most regards to belt carry.

Carrying a very small gun on a belt IWB it tends to conceal as well or better than it does in a pocket, IME.

Yes, yes it does. That's likely why we're discussing "small 9mm pistols".

Actually, its not. We are discussing them because the OP asked about small (which is of course relative) single stack nines. The OP has further clarified what he is looking for and doesn't seem interested in what I would call pocket nines based on the choices he is saying he is narrowed it down to. He has never once mentioned a desire to pocket carry, but has not expressly ruled it out. He has stated that he is not after something even as small as the PM/CM9 which is slightly larger than the R9 and about as big a gun as I would reasonably call a pocket gun. He stated in post #86

The CM9 seems a little on the 'too-small' size for me, the CW9 seems to be more the 'just-right' size.

He seems more interested in the next size up the spectrum, i.e. the CW9/PPS/Shield/etc sized guns. Some will say they pocket carry those guns, just like people say about the Glock 26. I still wouldn't say they are pocket guns for most folks.

NYGlock
February 11, 2013, 05:44 PM
Yeah - "pocket carry" to me is kind of vague. I will carry my G26 in a jacket pocket in a pocket holster. But I don't consider it a pocket pistol. If I can easily carry it in the front pocket of typical dress pants, I consider it a pocket pistol.

jimbo555
February 11, 2013, 06:52 PM
Most would consider a j-frame able to be carried in a pocket. Most of the new class of subcompact 9mm pistols are the same size or smaller.

NYGlock
February 11, 2013, 10:40 PM
I have a j-frame and I agree it is a pocket carry (probably the largest I would consider). I have a shield and it is about the same size, but it is not good for pocket carry due to the shape which makes it hard to draw.

willroute
February 11, 2013, 10:46 PM
I am partial to the Kahr Pm9 as well. Great pistol, conceals well. Accurate pistol.

I wear it in an old faithful IWB holster.

C0untZer0
February 12, 2013, 09:20 AM
To me, the next step from pocket pistol, either in weight or size, means belt carry - probably IWB.

And just my opinion, but carring IWB, with a good belt offers a greater range of options. Is it really that much of a difference between carrying an G26 versus a G19 IWB or a Kahr PM9 versus a Walther PSP?

I can see some advantages of having a small pistol like an PM9 or Boberg carried IWB, and each person has their own preferences, but getting a pocket pistol and then carrying it IWB has never made much sense to me - I've alway though it wouldn't make that much difference to get a slightly larger pistol and now you've got longer sight radius, better grip, better control, quicker follow-up shots.

Just my opinion.

Girodin
February 12, 2013, 03:41 PM
Is it really that much of a difference between carrying an G26 versus a G19 IWB or a Kahr PM9 versus a Walther PSP?


This is an interesting question and I was discussing it the other day with some people. We had laid out a number of guns chambered for 9x19, and even a few of the smaller .380s. Bascially everything from the tiny 9s up to duty size guns. They were laid out from smallest to largest going left to right. The difference between any gun and the gun to its left or right was not particularly significant. Meaning you could grab anyone of them and make a pretty strong argument that carrying the next one to the right would not really be significantly more difficult or burdensome. Thus, it seems to me that argument is always present and can quickly take one from an LCP to a glock 17 if you don't draw the line somewhere. The difference between carrying those two guns is of course fairly pronounced. In sum, for any given size of gun carrying the next one up typically isn't a dramatic difference. There of course may be a point where for some people it simply does become to difficult to conceal given their wardrobe etc.

As to carrying very small guns on a belt instead of a pocket. The argument for putting it on the belt has less to do with hiding it and to me MUCH more to do with accessing it. It has been my experience with a number of guns over the course of a few years of training and doing force on force, that getting to a pocket gun in a reactive situation is simply MUCH slower and more difficult than getting to a gun on a belt.

The other consideration is that putting a really small gun on ones belt, IME, often does not really make it anymore difficult to carry or conceal, or any less comfortable. Your point about a slightly larger gun being easier to carry does come up when it comes to the belt. A pocket is, due to space constraints, naturally more limiting in what can be carried.

I guess the first question one should address is how comfortable they are with pocket carry for a primary weapon. For me I don't particularly favor it, but have been reduced to it at various times. The strength of my objection does vary with the pocket in question. I actually like pocket carry for a BUG in some situations. The guns that will fit in a pocket are themselves limiting pistols.

I always suggest people really get out and do some significant training and testing with their primary carry setup. This allows one to identify problems, limitations, etc and address them if needed or at least be aware of them. Sometimes one finds that what seemed good in theory, actually kind of sucks in practice.

In sum, the limitations of pocket carry, combined with the limitations of the guns, particularly ones chambered in 9x19 that will reasonably fit in my pockets, make for a pretty compelling argument against pocket carrying a 9mm as a primary gun. This type of training is also necessary to develop the skills to effectively use the equipment one has.

The above is just my opinion. However, it is an opinion informed by more than just thinking about it all.

Big_John1961
February 13, 2013, 08:53 PM
I have a Kahr PM9 and it has been outstanding, with zero malfunctions over about 500 rounds. It shoots very well, has a great trigger and is slim and easy to carry. Great gun and highly recommended. 7 rounds of 124 gr +P Speer Gold Dots and you're rockin' and rollin'.

wrs840
February 13, 2013, 09:00 PM
For single stack 9s I like S&W 3913 or 908.

Your version of "small" may vary. These particular 3rd gens aren't exactly a pocket-frame, but then again, I think the desire for "smaller" is often a misplaced priority driven by a simple lack of experience.

Hunter125
February 14, 2013, 09:28 AM
I'd like to hear more about people's experiences with the Taurus PT 709. I was at Gander last night looking at upgrading from my 738 and held several of the small 9mm's:

BP9cc - $400 - Felt great, first time holding one, a little on the large side
DB9 - $379 - Too small for my comfort, felt like I would get slide bite like crazy
CM9 - $499 - Seemed high, felt okay, not as impressed as I thought I would be
LC9 - $379 - Good price, felt good, not a huge fan of the safety (more the style of the safety)
PT709 - $329 - Felt the best to me, safety was in a place that fit my hand well, though I'd still have to get used to having a safety at all, best price in the case

The 709 seems like the winner, but what do you all think of it.

heeler
February 14, 2013, 04:19 PM
I have never handled let alone fired the PT709 but a from what I have read around here over the years is that Taurus firearms are not held in high esteem.
The two I would be most comfortable with would be the CM9(I own a PM9) or the LC9.
The price is about right for the LC9 but that dealer is charging way too much for the CM9.

C0untZer0
February 14, 2013, 10:40 PM
The only 9mm Taurus that I would trust would be the 905 - and only after 500 rounds through it.

It's the only Taurus 9 that I've heard almost all owners say good things about as far as reliability and durability.

Hunter125
February 15, 2013, 12:55 AM
Anybody have experience with the Bersa BP9cc?

meanmrmustard
February 15, 2013, 05:24 AM
There are people who have used the same spring for more than 500 rounds and have had no negative side effects from it, but bottom line the manufacturer recommends replacing the spring every 200 rounds.

It's a 5 dollar part so I don't see the big deal.

Also, it's not like I take this gun to the range and put 200 rounds through it every weekend.

It is going to sit in my pocket. I will fire maybe 3 magazines through it every other weekend to keep my skills up with it. Replacing the recoil spring every 9 or 10 months is no big deal to me.

It's not rated for Plus P but I don't even fire +P through my full sized nines so I don't see how that effects me. The round that I like to use for SD is the 147gr Winchester Ranger "T" RA9T.

http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/flash-SWFs/law_bullit.swf

So far the R9 cycles the 147gr Ranger "T" just fine, so I'm happy.
I don't know, replacing a $5 every 200 rounds on any gun adds up, especially if I don't HAVE to set up a schedule to buy a damn spring.

I carry + P, and therefore, I practice with it. So, to me, it's important to have a firearm with the ability to use hotter ammo in the gun if I so choose. For the price, I wouldn't buy this gun.

meanmrmustard
February 15, 2013, 05:28 AM
"Are these even +p rated? Why does the manufacturer suggest recoil spring change every 200 rounds?"

No, but +P isn't all it's cracked up to be, especially from a very short barrel. Heck, it isn't much of an improvement out of a 4" or 5" barrel - check the ammo makers' specs. Replacing the spring is recommended because it has a relatively light slide and might just wear out the spring that quickly. I paid $4.95 each for replacement springs from Rohrbaugh.

I've carried mine since early '07 and it was slightly used. Looking at the current prices, if I sold mine I'd get all of my money back. Plus some.

John
Improvement, small or large, is still improved.

I carry and practice with my carry piece with +p, only makes sense.

With a $1000 price tag, there's better guns for drastically cheaper, that still can be deep concealed.

I'm glad you like yours, though.

JohnBT
February 15, 2013, 07:16 AM
Better guns? Where? :) I'm still not seeing it, even with an additional 20 to 30 fps shooting +P. That mattered a lot more to me before they improved the bullet designs.

It always seems to come down to price, doesn't it? I used to be on a budget, but that was a long time ago - well before I paid the house off in '97.

John

meanmrmustard
February 15, 2013, 07:27 AM
Better guns? Where? :) I'm still not seeing it, even with an additional 20 to 30 fps shooting +P. That mattered a lot more to me before they improved the bullet designs.

It always seems to come down to price, doesn't it? I used to be on a budget, but that was a long time ago - well before I paid the house off in '97.

John
Even with disposable income, I'm not paying a G for the R9. $5 here or there is still a bit ludicrous after very several hundred rounds, as well.

Those that support them say "I don't shoot that many anyway."

Why not? You don't practice or ascertain the reliability of your carry weapon? Foolish.

Speer lists there 9mm at 1220 fps. Double tap + p at over a 100 fps higher pushing the same 124 gr slug. Speed kills too, and I wholly agree with the hydrostatic shock capabilities of fast, rapidly expanding rounds in tissue.

The R9 is not recommended for use with hotter ammo, and its overpriced. All it has going for it is compactness. I see its super flyweight as a hindrance; I cannot shoot guns that light with any accuracy even at close range, nor are they comfortable enough to me to practice with.

Plus, the OP never stated pocket carry was an option. It never has been for me.

C0untZer0
February 15, 2013, 09:19 PM
If you want to say that there are guns that are a better value, more bang for the buck, that's one thing.

I put the Rohrbaugh in the same class as Arne's guns as far as quality, fit and finish. But the Boberg is not drastically cheaper.

There is no 9mm that is lighter, and has smaller overall dimensions that is better (higher quality) than the Rohrbaugh - period. There certainly is no 9mm that is lighter, smaller, better and drastically cheaper.

Racinfan83
February 16, 2013, 10:32 AM
In my opinion, nothing beats the S&W M&P Shield for the price. But you gotta FIND one first...

meanmrmustard
February 16, 2013, 11:15 AM
In my opinion, nothing beats the S&W M&P Shield for the price. But you gotta FIND one first...
I have one!!!

WCraven
February 16, 2013, 12:05 PM
I have always thought the Walters P22 to be the idea size and shape ..the Kahr CW9 is that gun..

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v400/crazycrave/026.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v400/crazycrave/027-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v400/crazycrave/028-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v400/crazycrave/029.jpg

Racinfan83
February 16, 2013, 08:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racinfan83 View Post
In my opinion, nothing beats the S&W M&P Shield for the price. But you gotta FIND one first...
I have one!!!

Me too! :D:D:D I wish I had ordered two instead of one though....:rolleyes:

exdetsgt
February 16, 2013, 08:44 PM
I rather like the Beretta Nano. You can pocket carry it easily, but I wouldn't. I carry it either in a Beretta-made IWB (depending on whether I can still button my trousers or not - some of my trousers' waistbands are a bit roomier than others) but most of the time in a small leather belt holster. Much easier to access rapidly Single stack, 6+1. Very well made and as accurate as my Glock 26, which is saying a lot. I have shot them together at the range. No significant difference in accuracy. Both sights are spot on.

RFMan
February 16, 2013, 10:10 PM
I'd like to hear more about people's experiences with the Taurus PT 709. I was at Gander last night looking at upgrading from my 738 and held several of the small 9mm's:

BP9cc - $400 - Felt great, first time holding one, a little on the large side
DB9 - $379 - Too small for my comfort, felt like I would get slide bite like crazy
CM9 - $499 - Seemed high, felt okay, not as impressed as I thought I would be
LC9 - $379 - Good price, felt good, not a huge fan of the safety (more the style of the safety)
PT709 - $329 - Felt the best to me, safety was in a place that fit my hand well, though I'd still have to get used to having a safety at all, best price in the case

The 709 seems like the winner, but what do you all think of it.
I have a PT709. I have not had any problems with it. It has eaten all of the 450 rounds I have fed it EXCEPT for some 124gr "gun show special" ammo, and I have read that 124gr Winchester White Box is a no-no. Perhaps I have been lucky. Online reviews are mixed. I like mine. I want to run some more rounds through it. Easy to carry and conceal.

I also have a CM9 - a recent addition at $400 from my LGS. Just started the break-in with Federal and Aguila; no issues so far. A bit of a long trigger pull, and I'm getting used to the sights, but it shoots VERY well so far given the short sight radius.

I handled an LC9 in the store. I liked the feel/size/heft, but that trigger was rather atrocious. Not heavy, but LOOOOOONG...and the reset was LOOOOOONG too. Though I hear that the Galloway Precision trigger system upgrade will fix that.

I handled a DB9. Didn't like it, but that's entirely subjective.

Hope this helps.

golfer_ray
February 16, 2013, 11:49 PM
Anybody have experience with the Bersa BP9cc?
I have one. I owned a Kahr CW9 previously & IMHO the Bersa is better built. They are very similar to each other. I bought mine for $359 new & it shoots very straight. Nice slim profile but the grip is long enough for my big hands. The only drawback which is well documented on the internet is that the mags stick, but I'll keep it.

thefish
February 17, 2013, 01:42 AM
I have a pt709 as well. Great pistol and I like the feel. It is sensitive to limp wristing but I think a lot of these small pistols are. Plenty of happy owners over at taurusarmed.net. it has had a problem with less than recomended loadings but that is kind of expected. My full size astra a95 had the same feed problem with that ammo too. Picking up a shield next week so ill see how they compare. A lot of people will dump on taurus but I think they have come a long way. Lifetime warranty. I bought mine used and when I had some fte I sent it in. They replaced the slide no questions asked and had it back in a week. And it turns out it was the ammo.

buckeye8
February 17, 2013, 02:29 AM
I have not shot every small 9 out there (would like to try the Shield), but it is hard for me to imagine a small 9 being much better than the Kahr PM9. It's a fantastic gun.

kokapelli
February 17, 2013, 08:17 AM
I have not shot every small 9 out there (would like to try the Shield), but it is hard for me to imagine a small 9 being much better than the Kahr PM9. It's a fantastic gun.
In regard to small 9mm pistols I feel the same way about the PM9. I owned a PF9 and it had way more felt recoil than the PM9 and was not nearly as accurate.

I have shot the P938 and it does have a better trigger but also has more felt recoil.

cpt-t
February 18, 2013, 12:24 AM
My Wife and I both carry a KHAR CW9, and we think they are just great. They are both very accurate and and very easy to shoot. They have great tirggers, and we carry them every day we are out of the house. I put a Crimson Trace Lazer Sights on both of them. We have never had even the slightest hint of a problem them. We think the CW9 is the best choice for us. Good Luck To You:
ken

Girodin
February 18, 2013, 08:02 PM
Better guns? Where? I'm still not seeing it, even with an additional 20 to 30 fps shooting +P. That mattered a lot more to me before they improved the bullet designs.

It always seems to come down to price, doesn't it? I used to be on a budget, but that was a long time ago - well before I paid the house off in '97.


To discuss better or worse you have to first outline criteria. I personally think there are much better carry guns than the R9. I outlined most of my reasons in a previous post in this thread. I'll add here that the R9, in my experience and from what I have read repeatedly on a forum dedicated to that gun, is a picky eater. Add to that the need to frequently replace recoil springs. Any gun I carry as a primary carry gun I like to shoot a lot. The last time I was out training, I put 300 rounds through my gun working one particular skill.

It doesn't have a thing in the world to do with money to me. In absolute terms I think there are better guns. An R9 for example cost no more than some other handguns I own and is a fraction of my ARs and some shotguns I own. That said, I think it is fair to make statements about what one is getting for the money.

Take your R9 out and run some realistic scenarios with a shot timer and a means of accounting for accuracy. Use it an run a balance speed and accuracy drill. Take it to a multi day pistol course to develop your skills with your carry gun. The proof is in the pudding and these types of activities will show much more quickly than typing and theorizing how useful of a carry gun the R9 is vis-a-vis its competitors. It will also underscore the costs of a getting a smaller gun.

Those that support them say "I don't shoot that many anyway."

Why not?

See my comments earlier in this thread about treating a gun as a talisman.

meanmrmustard
February 18, 2013, 08:20 PM
See my comments earlier in this thread about treating a gun as a talisman. Good point, I see what you mean.

If I'm carrying a certain weapon, I like being proficient with it. That means putting rounds down range, and I can't feasibly do that with a gun that requires a new part every two hundred rounds. If that's the price of pocket carry along with $1k tag...then keep it.

Me, personally, I'm favoring the Shield thus far. It runs HPs and FMJ well, standard and +P loads, and eats my reloads without question.

WCraven
February 18, 2013, 08:25 PM
Glock 26 vs Kahr CW9 vs Ruger LC9 vs Kimber Ultra Carry II

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt3jtMCyjP8

3GunEric
February 18, 2013, 08:33 PM
I went through much research when deciding on a carry 9mm. Went with Sig P239. Had SRT (Short Reset Trigger) added. Yes it is heavy but it is/was the right choice for me. Accurate, 100% reliable, shoots well! Have even used it in a 3 Gun match.

Choosing a gun for any purpose is a complicated process.

exdetsgt
February 19, 2013, 10:50 PM
My two favorite small 9s are the Beretta Nano and - should come as no surprise - the venerable Glock 26. The Nano is a single stack and thus slightly more concealable than the double stack Glock, but they both fit in a Masters brand leather G26 OWB holster.

The Glock shoots only marginally better than the Nano. Its obvious main advantage is its ten round magazine vs. the Nano's 6 round magazine. However, the Nano's mag is so small it's quite easy to carry a second loaded mag in one of your trouser pockets.

Beretta also sells an 8 round magazine for the Nano. For the life of me, I really can't decide on which one is the better pistol.

ttub2177
March 13, 2013, 04:25 AM
I'm new to the site, can someone steer me in the right direction and tell me if it is alright to shoot cast bullets out of my bersa thunder pro 9? I just got it used and can't wait to shoot it. It's snowing today, hopefully will get out this weekend.

Hunter991
March 13, 2013, 07:20 AM
For sure Kahr cw9 or cm9. have both and they are both solid and reliable.

JohnBT
March 13, 2013, 09:19 AM
"The proof is in the pudding"

The actual saying is 'The proof of the pudding is in the eating.'

You say it's not about the money and then you complain about having to buy too many recoil springs? You suggest taking an R9 (or any tiny 9mm I assume?) to a 3-day handgun course. Oh there's a great idea, I don't doubt the R9 would survive, but my hand wouldn't. You've entirely missed the point of a tiny pistol; it's not the best gun for a one-gun person - it's an option.

After six years I recently found a brand of ammo my R9 didn't like - one round with a weak rim anyway. It was an old $6/box Remington from Dick's and I'd never shot any Rem ammo in my R9 until then. The other 4 boxes shot fine so maybe it was just a fluke.

I'd rather carry a shotgun everyday, but it's not practical. I tried carrying my FNP-45 with 16 rounds of .45, but it kept pulling my shorts down. :)

John

kokapelli
March 13, 2013, 09:29 AM
What you need is suspenders for your shorts:p

bikerbill
March 13, 2013, 09:29 AM
Another vote for Kahr ... been carrying a PM9 for almost 10 years; it's light enough to pocket carry, easy to belt carry if that's your preference, mine has never failed since I took it out of the box, it's wonderfully accurate at SD distances, easy to shoot, easy to maintain ...

golden
March 14, 2013, 06:27 PM
TUJ,

I have shot several really small 9m.m. and would not do it again.

The RUGER LC9 was unpleasant to shoot (for me) and after a dozen rounds, I did not want to shoot it again.

I owned a KAHR CW9 and after one box of ammo, sold it. The problem was still with the recoil. The 9m.m. is not a hard kicking round.
However, with a small grip area and a light weight gun, it can get unpleasant.

I also shot a 9m.m. WALTHER P99 Compact. While I love the full size P99, I would not want to carry the P99 Compact. It simply felt to light in my hand. RECOIL WAS NOT A PROBLEL WITH THIS GUN. It was simply that it felt too light to be steady.

The smallest 9m.m. pistols that I shoot now are the SIG 225 (WONDERFUL GRIP) and SPRINGFIELD ARMORY XD9 Sub Compact.
The funny thing is that the XD9 is similar in size to the WALTHER P99 Compact, but feels much more substantial. Probably the extra weight makes the difference.

That has been my experience.

Jim

45crittergitter
April 1, 2013, 05:36 PM
Rohrbaugh.

cajun executioner
April 1, 2013, 05:48 PM
I live my Shield. It's slim compact design makes it a great CCW.

Jim NE
April 1, 2013, 08:32 PM
My P-11 Keltec is a common carry for me, and I like it, but with some caveats.

-It needs tweaking with aftermarket stuff.
-The long stiff trigger needs to smooth out with use, and to be acclimated to by the shooter.
-Reliability is very good, but durability isn't (for me.)

By 1000 rounds, three small parts and a couple of springs had failed. The factory fixed it for free, and the gun works flawlessly again. I trust it enough to carry it over some of my better quality guns, but it's proven that it's not a range gun. I shoot it at the range rarely and only to test function. If the round count ever gets close to 2000, I'll probably retire it. It has it's limitations, but it may be one of the best inexpensive options.

uarpaci
April 2, 2013, 12:43 PM
Hi fellow shooters!

I am in the market for a small 9mm pistol. Single-stack, slim and small.

What do you guys like in this department? Considering the PF9, P239, etc. open to others.
Check on Boberg

JDR
April 2, 2013, 01:12 PM
I have a Sig P225 with extra mags, and it's a really good pistol. Prices have doubled since I got mine. Your biggest challenge right now may be where to find 9mm ammo.

kokapelli
April 2, 2013, 01:45 PM
PM9 or CM9 would be my choice. Both are well proven and hard to beat in any respect.

Had a PF9 and it worked, but a painful gun to shoot and not even close to my PM9 in accuracy and felt recoil.

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