380 Is A Handful


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marb4
February 7, 2013, 05:11 PM
I picked up a Taurus TCP 380 as I've been looking for a very small pocket pistol for times when for whatever reason IWB isn't an option. I had no previous experience with a 380 until I took the little Taurus out this morning. I've read a lot where people choose a 380 because they have recoil issues and want something more manageable. After my range session this morning I don't know that I would say low recoil is a good reason for buying a 380. That little thing was a handful! I've owned small 9mm's (Kahr CM9, Glock 26, KelTec P11) and the little micro Taurus had at least as much if not more felt recoil than my 9's based on my estimation anyway. After 50 rounds or so it was just getting plain uncomfortable to shoot. The pistol performed well so I have no complaints but to those of you choosing 380 because you think it'll be easier/softer to shoot than something larger (such as a 9mm) I would encourage you to get your hands on one and check it out for yourself. You may be surprised.

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captbluemoon
February 7, 2013, 05:32 PM
I have owned a Walther ppk 380 and a Walther PK 380 , I think my personal recovery time is much faster, but to each his own.

mbt2001
February 7, 2013, 05:41 PM
I hear you. Personally, I have no experience with the gun you cited, but many of the little pocket pistols out there are a handful. I have a Cobra derringer in .380 and that is BY FAR the most punishing gun I have in regards to recoil. It isn't unmanageable, but it's weight and ergonomics make me more likely to grab something else.

Each to his own right?

allaroundhunter
February 7, 2013, 05:44 PM
Around here people will warn you ahead of time, .380 is rarely more manageable than 9mm in a small gun. The action type for .380 is typically a blowback while 9mm's use a delayed blowback action. This leads the .380 to feel sharper and, yes, unpleasant.

However, Sigs P238 is a very soft shooting .380.

H.m.B
February 7, 2013, 05:50 PM
My Sig P232 is snappy but not unmanageable. Although, it is the stainless steel model and not the alloy version. It's not hard to put a couple of boxes down range. Now slide-bite ... that's another matter!

Skribs
February 7, 2013, 06:28 PM
I have a .380 LCP and a .40 XDm, and the .380 is what beats up my hand. I'm looking at maybe getting a Keltec P32 to replace the LCP as my running shorts carry piece.

rondog
February 7, 2013, 07:18 PM
Ah, quit yer whinin'.....go shoot a PA-63 in 9x18 Makarov.

meanmrmustard
February 7, 2013, 08:35 PM
No kidding. I've shot the TCP quite a bit. Rather sharp snap.

But, it isn't meant to be fun, or even accurate, or pleasant. It's meant to save your life.

Sergei Mosin
February 7, 2013, 08:38 PM
SIG P238 is the answer. My wife, an inexperienced shooter, ran 150 rounds through hers yesterday, and I believe if we'd brought another box to the range, she would have shot that up too.

12Bravo20
February 7, 2013, 08:47 PM
I own a Kel Tec P3AT and a PA-63 (9x18). The PA-63 definitely has worse recoil than the P3AT.

LightningMan
February 7, 2013, 11:15 PM
My Kahr P380 isn't bad at all compared to my Kel-Tec P3AT or my LCP. Probably why I carry it near all the time as a back-up to my M&Pc. LM

VA27
February 7, 2013, 11:16 PM
Seecamp .380. Every other is a pussycat.

barneyrw
February 7, 2013, 11:19 PM
I don't think people choose a .380 for recoil issues, people choose a .380 pocket pistol for ease of concealed carry, ie. it drops right into your front pocket. It's not meant to be a pistol to take to the range routinely and put a lot of rounds through it.

ID-shooting
February 7, 2013, 11:25 PM
I have to agree. Used to carry a P3AT, "upgraded" to a LCP. Both make my hand hurt. Only use them for CC. Once in a great while I will burn through a mag while shooting other guns at the range.

1KPerDay
February 7, 2013, 11:29 PM
I like shooting the lcp. The p230 alloy with warmish loads is not pleasant. The seecamp... That's in an entirely different category of pain. :eek:

savanahsdad
February 7, 2013, 11:34 PM
I have a Braco .380auto ouch !!! lol !!!!! call me mean , but I love letting other shoot it just to watch the shock on there face !! My wife has a Ruger BlackHawk in 44 mag. glock 17 9mm, a makarov 9X18 , Sig Sauer P238 Lady 380auto, , loves to shoot all of them , but when I let her shoot my little Braco it went bang ! she went OUCH !!! for some reason she don't want to shoot it anymore :evil:

JoePfeiffer
February 8, 2013, 12:39 AM
It really isn't fair to talk about a round's recoil in isolation from the gun you're shooting it in. Yes, 380 has lower energy (and so theoretically less recoil) than a lot of other rounds, but you're shooting it from a pistol designed to be as small as possible and still be somewhat manageable. Yes, it'll have a lot more felt recoil than something like a full-size 9mm -- but you *really* wouldn't want to shoot a 9mm from something the size of that Taurus.

radar1972
February 8, 2013, 12:57 AM
I don't think people choose a .380 for recoil issues, people choose a .380 pocket pistol for ease of concealed carry, ie. it drops right into your front pocket. It's not meant to be a pistol to take to the range routinely and put a lot of rounds through it.
+1 barneyrw

ku4hx
February 8, 2013, 01:31 AM
I'm always a bit amused when someone who wants to buy their first center fire handgun thinks "little gun; therefore, little recoil". Of all the guns I own, an AMT Backup in 380 ACP is the most unpleasant to shoot. It's also the smallest and lightest.

jim243
February 8, 2013, 01:31 AM
Guns that I call holdouts, small concelable pistols or revolvers are designed for short range self defense are very light and small in nature. They are not designed for accuracy or as range guns. That is not their purpose.

The lighter the gun the more FELT recoil. The 380 round does not produce the same amount of energy that a larger caliber (380 (95 grain) vs 9mm (115 grain)) or gun powder (380 (2.8 grains) vs 9mm (4.6 grains)) would.

What you are feeling is the snap from a 2 to 3 inch barrel as opposed to a 4 or 5 inch barrel.

These small handguns are not designed for extended range use. Those of large frames like the Bersa or Walther are more comfortable to shoot.

Jim

ku4hx
February 8, 2013, 01:46 AM
What you are feeling is the snap from a 2 to 3 inch barrel as opposed to a 4 or 5 inch barrel.
Recoil per se is all about physics and Newton's laws of motion. The energy that produces recoil has to go somewhere. If it's not absorbed more by overcoming the resting inertia of the gun and moving the mass of the gun, then it's absorbed more by overcoming the resting inertia of the shooter and moving the mass of the shooter's body. Mostly in moving the hand and arm.

Kiln
February 8, 2013, 04:29 AM
Honestly I don't get the guys who have issues with the PA63's recoil. I find it pretty comfortable and on par with .380acp myself. It isn't bad at all. Now the Polish P64 on the other hand beats the hell out of your hand and leaves you bruised up.

I can say two good things about the P64 though:

1. The trigger is probably the best on any milsurp gun I own.

2. It is very reliable.

greenlion
February 8, 2013, 06:04 AM
I tried all the super-small 380's before I bought one. The little Ruger LCP and Keltec 3AT twisted in my hand during recoil, causing me to adjust my grip after a couple of shots to regain a proper grip on the gun. I ended up with the slightly heavier KAHR, which did not do that.

bannockburn
February 8, 2013, 06:12 AM
The two nicest .380's that I have, in terms of manageable recoil and quick recovery back on target, would be my Colt Mustang and SIG P-238. Of course their similar design features are at work in lessening recoil and making for a very pleasant shooting experience.

Adam the Gnome
February 8, 2013, 08:24 AM
My fiancÚ purchased a LCP as her first gun. She wanted what she wanted a little gun. The recoil isn't that bad, she complained of her thumb web being sore a few hours later. Ordered a hogue grip which feels a lot better
My only gripe it's like aiming a beer bottle. But as someone said earlier its for saving your life not bullseye shooting.

kokapelli
February 8, 2013, 08:47 AM
Around here people will warn you ahead of time, .380 is rarely more manageable than 9mm in a small gun. The action type for .380 is typically a blowback while 9mm's use a delayed blowback action. This leads the .380 to feel sharper and, yes, unpleasant.

However, Sigs P238 is a very soft shooting .380.
That is simply not true! Most of the popular pocket 380 pistols today are just like the 9mm are not blowback, but rather are locked beach actions and if you try shooting a 9mm in the same size and weight as the popular pocket 380 pistols you are going to feel a lot more recoil from the 9mm.

I agree that the P238 has by far the least felt recoil of all the pocket 380 pistols.

12Bravo20
February 8, 2013, 10:17 AM
I don't have any problems with the recoil from my PA-63. I only stated that it has more felt recoil compared to my .380 pistols and also to other steel frame pistols chambered in 9x18. If I want to do a lot of shooting with .380, I use my Llama IIIA which has less felt recoil of all my small blow back pistols.

And as stated, a pocket pistol is designed for easy concealment not everyday shooting. Felt recoil will be more in small pistols versus full size ones.

huntsman
February 8, 2013, 10:47 AM
My BDA is a joy to shoot my LCP not so much but overall I'm a .380acp fan, when I want bigger it's .45acp for me.

Spdracr39
February 8, 2013, 11:09 AM
My .380 bodyguard is a little uncomfortable to shoot. It starts hurting the heel of my hand after 50 rounds. My Sig P938 9mm is the almost same size and is much easier on the hand.

Roadking Rider
February 8, 2013, 11:22 AM
Yea those little .380s sure aren't range toys. When it comes to shooting a lot of rounds I rather shoot my CZ82 9X18 than my P3at.

TheReiver
February 9, 2013, 10:33 PM
I have a Kel Tec P3AT. I like the gun but it's NO fun to shoot. In their defense these pocket rockets weren't designed to be range guns. The advantages with them is small size and low weight. Those two advantages always come with an increase in recoil vs guns of a larger size in the same caliber.

Balrog
February 9, 2013, 10:41 PM
The end of our culture must truly be near when grown men complain about the punishing, wrist breaking recoil of the mighty 380 ACP.

hAkron
February 9, 2013, 10:42 PM
The end of our culture must truly be near when grown men complain about the punishing, wrist breaking recoil of the mighty 380 ACP.

^^^

xXxplosive
February 9, 2013, 11:09 PM
Bought a Guardian .380 years ago on the reccomendation of another NRA Firearms Instructor.....the first gun was so bad the Co. took it back and issued me a second new one which I still have.....it's too heavy for pocket carry and is not reliable....IMO.
I won't sell a problem to another fellow sportsman so I just put it aside....I really have no need for this mouse gun and don't trust it at all.........

meanmrmustard
February 10, 2013, 06:44 AM
Honestly I don't get the guys who have issues with the PA63's recoil. I find it pretty comfortable and on par with .380acp myself. It isn't bad at all. Now the Polish P64 on the other hand beats the hell out of your hand and leaves you bruised up.

I can say two good things about the P64 though:

1. The trigger is probably the best on any milsurp gun I own.

2. It is very reliable.
I think the trigger on the P64 is subpar compared to the CZ82. But, I must agree:

1. P64 is a bear to shoot. Once, while slow firing, the cross pin that hinges the trigger guard fell out, and the damned thing field stripped itself...after loosing a round down range. Scary.:eek:

2. Minus that issue, never a malfunction. Flared the pin, lil blue Loctite, never comes loose. I'd take it over a Taurus TCP.

meanmrmustard
February 10, 2013, 06:49 AM
The end of our culture must truly be near when grown men complain about the punishing, wrist breaking recoil of the mighty 380 ACP.
The end of innocence must be nigh when all but a few posters comment to the uncomfortable shooting nature of a center fire cartridge in a gun not much larger than a key chain.

Meanwhile, the few that believe grown men to be insusceptible to pain, scoff. I suppose some are just more manly, able to fire the mighty 380ACP in guns smaller than those my children play with that fire caps.

Somebody's compensating.

76shuvlinoff
February 10, 2013, 06:52 AM
The recoil from my LCP is barely noticeable ..... if I numb my hand with a cylinder of warmed up .357s from my wife's SP101 first.


.

kokapelli
February 10, 2013, 07:45 AM
I think the trigger on the P64 is subpar compared to the CZ82. But, I must agree:

1. P64 is a bear to shoot. Once, while slow firing, the cross pin that hinges the trigger guard fell out, and the damned thing field stripped itself...after loosing a round down range. Scary.:eek:

2. Minus that issue, never a malfunction. Flared the pin, lil blue Loctite, never comes loose. I'd take it over a Taurus TCP.
Based on what? Is it because the TCP is much more pocketable, or maybe because the TCP is much lighter, or because the TCP is a locked breach action that has less felt recoil? Just curious.

meanmrmustard
February 10, 2013, 08:21 AM
Based on what? Is it because the TCP is much more pocketable, or maybe because the TCP is much lighter, or because the TCP is a locked breach action that has less felt recoil? Just curious.
Based on weight, and weight alone. Neither has a trigger I care for, so it would be subjective and unfair of me to say either is better in that regard. Action type helps, but weight trumps my ability to shoot the TCP any better or any less "painful" than a P64.

Felt recoil is subjective, an opinion. You obviously know mine. I think I deduced yours.

Edit to add: Sorry for the comparison not relating to the subject at hand.

Glockenspieler
February 12, 2013, 07:33 AM
VA27 wrote:" Seecamp .380. Every other is a pussycat"

+1
A real knucklebuster -- Makes a .44 Mag seem pleasant!

armarsh
February 12, 2013, 07:59 AM
Seecamp .380. Every other is a pussycat.

+2 They are like a mousetrap on your fingers. I would rather shoot full-on magnums.

Sweet little guns though.

Evil One
February 12, 2013, 09:05 AM
I have a P3AT, and honestly... it is not bad at all to shoot.
I got the 380 when I dropped a bit of weight and my P11 became harder to pocket carry.
Compared to the P-11, the P3AT is a non event.
My wife even remarked to me about how mild it is, especially with the extended mag.
I would suggest it to anyone who could work the slide.


Jim

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

nelsonal
February 12, 2013, 09:45 AM
The end of our culture must truly be near when grown men complain about the punishing, wrist breaking recoil of the mighty 380 ACP.
I was a little surprised to find that depending on your estimate of powder (5 and 20 gr were mine) a Taurus LCP shooting Cor-Bon 90 gr has more recoil velocity than a Super Redhawk firing Buffalo Bore's "Ruger/Thompson" heavy 340 grain loads. Far less total energy, but velocity was higher.

cfullgraf
February 12, 2013, 10:03 AM
My Beretta M84, Colt Mustang, Sig P238, and Walther PPK all are pretty soft recoilers. But, they are bigger and heavier than the micro 380 ACP handguns.

My KelTec P3AT is not as pleasant to shoot due to its small size and weight. But, shooting the KelTec is quite managable and concealable.

kokapelli
February 12, 2013, 12:12 PM
multiple wt in grs by velocity in fps, and drop the meaningless zeros, and you get recoil momentum "factor" for instance 50 grs at 2000 fps is the same "10-factor" recoil as 100 grs at 1000 fps. but the former has 450 ft lbs of energy, the latter has 220 ft lbs. If 2 guns are the same weight and both have a Browning tilting barrel delayed blowback, like the keltec does, then 90 grs at 800 fps will have the same recoil in the 9 oz p3AT as 180 grs at 800 fps in an 18 oz P40 keltec, which was/is so violent that KT quit making it. Also, the shorter the barrel/slide and shorter the grip, the worse the gun torques its muzzle upward in your hand. If you think that the P3at is bad, add 2 ozs, 20% of weight, as in the 11 oz Diamondback 9mm, and add 450 fps, as with a Corbon plus P 9mm, at 1250 fps in the pocket 9. Sheesh! I added 1 oz (3/4") of steel barrel extension, 2 ozs of steel "cap" and side-shims: to the slide, and 3 ozs of lead stock panels to the frame. Now it's adequately contolable with my loads (10 factor, not 12 factor). :-)
"Blowback" and what you refer to as "tilt barrel" which should be called "Locked Breach" are two distinctly different mechanisms!

Recoil operation is an operating mechanism used in locked-breech, autoloading firearms. As the name implies, these actions use the force of recoil to provide energy to cycle the action. Other operating systems are Blow forward operated, blowback operated, gas operated.

The same round fired from two different pistols at or near the same weight and with similar actions may still have significantly different felt recoil. There are a lot of other factors in pistol design beside bullet weight and velocity that will effect felt recoil.

kerreckt
February 12, 2013, 12:38 PM
Total agreement. I carry a P3AT and it isn't comfortable to shoot. As long as it works when I need it I have no complaints. I carry this strictly for self defense so I can put up with the small discomfort when I test fire it bi-weekly.

GCBurner
February 12, 2013, 04:47 PM
I found my P3AT was a lot easier to shoot, and more accurate for me, when I added the Pierce +1 extension to the magazines. Just having one extra finger able to grip it makes a world of difference. At current prices of .380 ammo, I only shoot off about half a box a month in practice, and usually only reloads, so I can save the premium ammo for actual carry use.

brickeyee
February 12, 2013, 04:51 PM
If you make a gun in almost any caliber small enough you can exaggerate the felt recoil.

CZguy
February 12, 2013, 11:16 PM
If you make a gun in almost any caliber small enough you can exaggerate the felt recoil.

Yep, it's physics, pure and simple.

Snowdog
February 13, 2013, 01:37 PM
I sometimes will carry a P64 in a IWB holster. The recoil is a bit on the punishing size, but the size is hard to pass up. The compact size, quality construction (for a milsurp) and sweet SA trigger almost make up for the recoil and crappy sights.

However, I have a P238HD on the way to essentially replace the P64 for anything I'd use the P64 for. It may not have the same light SA trigger the P64 does, but the mild recoil and usable sights will more than make up for that.

This may be something my wife will carry when she eventually obtains her CCW. From what I've read, most women can rack the slide and the pistol is safe to carry in condition 2, which is perfect for purse carry, IMHO.

brickeyee
February 13, 2013, 02:14 PM
Brother in law had a nice tiny .380 he used to carry.

It was so much of a PITA to shoot he rarely practiced with it, and even then could not hit anything beyond about 10 feet.

A couple inches of sight radius on rudimentary sights is not all that conducive to hitting anything.

He was only fooling himself.

WRGADog
February 13, 2013, 02:39 PM
I have a Kahr P380 and find it easy to shoot and control with very manageable recoil and second shot capability. I have put ~1000 rounds through the gun with zero problems. The only issue I have had was with quality of the initial magazines which Kahr immediately replaced.

GCBurner
February 13, 2013, 02:41 PM
Brother in law had a nice tiny .380 he used to carry.

It was so much of a PITA to shoot he rarely practiced with it, and even then could not hit anything beyond about 10 feet.

A couple inches of sight radius on rudimentary sights is not all that conducive to hitting anything.

He was only fooling himself.
It does take practice. When I first got my P3AT, it was grouping all over the paper at 10 yards. I put some bright white enamel paint of the front sight, and started squeezing the trigger instead of just quickly pulling it, and I can keep everything in an 8-inch bullseye now. Still not exactly target competition accuracy, but good enough for defensive use at 30 feet or less, which is its intended purpose.

jon_in_wv
February 13, 2013, 08:51 PM
380 does offer less recoil in an appropriately sized weapon like the Bersa 380. Expecting low recoil in the tiniest, lightest possible platform for the caliber seems a little naive. My Bersa 380 has very light recoil and follow up shots are ridiculously fast and easy. MY BG380 is a little tougher to shoot and has more recoil but its half the size too.

Paul7
February 14, 2013, 06:09 PM
My Colt Mustang is very soft shooting, unlike an LCP I used to have.

Captcurt
February 15, 2013, 01:40 PM
Just got a Ruger LC380 in. I may have to keep it. It is looks like a LC9 except it's 380. I will ring it out and get back with you.

I really like the Sig P238 but you are talking twice the money.

Dakotared
February 15, 2013, 04:29 PM
I have the LCP 380 and if that thing hurts your hand you may want to give up shooting!!!:D

I am joking with ya but I honestly do not think it is bad at all. Maybe because I was expecting much worse from such a small gun. Like others have said smaller gun more felt recoil.

Soldiernurse
February 16, 2013, 10:48 AM
Sir, I mean no disrespect but my TCP 738 is very manageable. At 3-7yds I was very accurate w/mighty mouse. Very surprised since barely could see the front site. I'm not going to target shoot very often with it. It's a BUG

Also, you have it backwards regards to smaller the handgun equals less recoil. My G4G19, PPQ40, or XD40sc have a light recoil.
http://imageshack.us/a/img155/8105/foodsmiley007lq6.gif

Torian
February 16, 2013, 11:05 AM
Another vote for the 232. It's about as tame as any .380 out there, but it doesn't come cheap.

hardluk1
February 16, 2013, 11:22 AM
I really like the 380TCP. We have two of them. My youngest daughter claimed my first one. Then my wife bought one and later a bersa 380CC so I may get one back. I did the break in on both and with 400 rounds thru each i have not had a single issue.

My main CC is a cm9 with 124gr +P ammo. . So 380's recoil is nothing special even in a small pacage. Anyone that has a TCP try shooting it one handed, For me its way easier to control. Accurate for a small pistol also . Best trigger pull of most any defence handgun too. Easy for me to shoot 3" 7 yard groups even with my bad eyes. The tcp C models we have also do not seem to have issues with any ammo we have tried, fmj or hp. I also added a piece of inner tube cut to cover as much grip as possible to aid control. I can not get two hands around that little gun. So one handed shooting.

I have highlighted the sites, Wifes SS model has a blacked out rear sight area and a yellow front sight.

Soldiernurse
February 16, 2013, 11:33 AM
BTW, speaking of Taurus my PT140 MilPro is very manageable. Have not shot my PT145 MilPro... bought it just last week. My (Beretta) Stoeger Cougar 8040FS, w/revolving barrel, is a dream to shoot.
:D

Mosbyranger
February 16, 2013, 12:59 PM
If you can find one, try the Colt Government in .380. Very nice.
MR

Match14
February 16, 2013, 02:07 PM
I have one and like it for the most part, but the sights on the modern pistols are much better.
Mine is an early one (1983) and it just has the old style low profile, low visibilty sights.
Also I had to take mine to a gunsmith to get the feedramp redone so it would feed flat nosed rounds, before that it would only feed ball ammo reliably.

I would only go with this if you can find one for like $500 or less.

I really wish someone would make a 9mm version but the same size. Sig almost does but it has the same grip length as their P238. I like the longer grip on the Government .380 because I can grip it with all the fingers.

Clark
February 16, 2013, 04:30 PM
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=168592&d=1342817525

If you think factory ammo is a handful in tiny 380, you should try with handloads that push a 90 gr Gold Dot bullet at 1100 fps from a Kel-Tec P3AT.

The cases eject so hard, that if they bounce off a wall at the range, they cut flesh.

Buffalo bore claims this same performance, but I don't know how they do it. I am tuned right up to the threshold of case bulge in that pistol.

I have the Kel-tec P3AT, the Ruger LCP, the Kahr P380, and some other larger 380s.
They all have their advantages.

kokapelli
February 16, 2013, 04:52 PM
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=168592&d=1342817525

If you think factory ammo is a handful in tiny 380, you should try with handloads that push a 90 gr Gold Dot bullet at 1100 fps from a Kel-Tec P3AT.

The cases eject so hard, that if they bounce off a wall at the range, they cut flesh.

Buffalo bore claims this same performance, but I don't know how they do it. I am tuned right up to the threshold of case bulge in that pistol.

I have the Kel-tec P3AT, the Ruger LCP, the Kahr P380, and some other larger 380s.
They all have their advantages.
I always enjoyed your pushing the envelope when you posted at the KT board, but I came to the conclusion that pushing 380 JHP rounds to higher velocity had little benefit since the rounds expanded faster at the higher velocity and would probably have shallower penetration.

I did purchase a bunch of Buffalo Bore 380 but eventually decided that there was really little benefit and now only carry Winchester fmj/FP ammo in my pocket 380 pistols.

This is just my opinion and I realize others feel differently about which ammo to carry in their micro 380 pistols.

hardluk1
February 16, 2013, 06:52 PM
After reviewing as many 380 gel test as I could find it looks like the corbon dpx ammo is the best mix of expansion and penetrationion.

CZguy
February 16, 2013, 10:03 PM
I have the Kel-tec P3AT, the Ruger LCP, the Kahr P380, and some other larger 380s.
They all have their advantages.

I own all three of these also. Since I got the Kahr P380, the Kel Tec and Ruger are moving further and further back in the safe.

Soldiernurse
February 16, 2013, 10:42 PM
Based on what? Is it because the TCP is much more pocketable, or maybe because the TCP is much lighter, or because the TCP is a locked breach action that has less felt recoil? Just curious.
Have you shot the Taurus TCP738? Light trigger pull, not uncomfortable recoil, locks back after last round... and very affordable.

Soldiernurse
February 16, 2013, 10:44 PM
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=168592&d=1342817525

If you think factory ammo is a handful in tiny 380, you should try with handloads that push a 90 gr Gold Dot bullet at 1100 fps from a Kel-Tec P3AT.

The cases eject so hard, that if they bounce off a wall at the range, they cut flesh.

Buffalo bore claims this same performance, but I don't know how they do it. I am tuned right up to the threshold of case bulge in that pistol.

I have the Kel-tec P3AT, the Ruger LCP, the Kahr P380, and some other larger 380s.
They all have their advantages.
Curious, why three .380 caliber guns?

kokapelli
February 16, 2013, 10:52 PM
Have you shot the Taurus TCP738? Light trigger pull, not uncomfortable recoil, locks back after last round... and very affordable.
Yes I have a TCP and it's my second favorite pocket postal after my P238.

Soldiernurse
February 16, 2013, 10:52 PM
Brother in law had a nice tiny .380 he used to carry.

It was so much of a PITA to shoot he rarely practiced with it, and even then could not hit anything beyond about 10 feet.

A couple inches of sight radius on rudimentary sights is not all that conducive to hitting anything.

He was only fooling himself.
You are both fool'n yourself looking for .380 accuracy like a 1911 Target Gun.

Soldiernurse
February 16, 2013, 10:54 PM
Yes I have a TCP and it's my second favorite pocket postal after my P238.
No bashing by me, just curious the specifics that make your P238 more favorable than TCP738?

Clark
February 16, 2013, 10:59 PM
Soldiernurse
Curious, why three .380 caliber guns?

Each 380 has advantages.
I just got the Kahr 3 days ago and have not evaluated it very well, but I am guessing I will shorten it's ejector.

The Kel-Tec, Ruger, Bryco, Beretta, and Husqvarna I have overloaded with Bullseye and 115 gr JHP until the case failed or the barrel failed.

I try to measure the case support and predict what load will make the case fail.
I try to estimate the barrel strength from measuring the chamber wall thickness at the thinnest spot.
I try to estimate the hottest load before slide slam give the product of [moving slide mass] [average recoil spring force over travel distance][ slide travel distance].

I weigh the pistols with ammo.
I am always looking for the most powerful concealed carry that is the least inconvenient to carry.

velojym
February 16, 2013, 11:00 PM
My .380 Taurus makes my LC9 feel pretty nice, the latter being pleasant enough for plinking. The former is a bit snappier, but didn't cause any real problems for me. That being said, I'd rather spend the day with my .44 mag SBH, which is a real treat to shoot.

Like with snubby .38s, the mechanical accuracy is there, but it takes a lot of practice to be effective beyond belly gun ranges. My TCP was knocking down steel plates at 15 yards pretty regularly, but I had to be careful with trigger control, as I found myself moving that light little pistol with the trigger stroke. I think it's actually helping my technique with my larger guns, which are heavy enough to mask those errors.

VA27
February 16, 2013, 11:04 PM
You are both fool'n yourself looking for .380 accuracy like a 1911 Target Gun.

Unless you can find a Browning Model 1971. Scary accurate, but NOT a pocket gun.

Ignition Override
February 17, 2013, 02:18 AM
Kiln:
Three friends carry the Polish P-64, and having forgotten what the recoil was like, I was looking forward to buying one somewhere as my First Handgun.

But then I tried it out again, and changed my mind. The Bersa Thunder .380 was much better. with a nice trigger.

Is the Sig 232's recoil a bit milder than the P-64?

kokapelli
February 17, 2013, 07:54 AM
No bashing by me, just curious the specifics that make your P238 more favorable than TCP738?
The P238 has a much better single action trigger, much less felt recoil, much, much better sights and is more accurate.

ryan3465
February 18, 2013, 07:27 PM
I had a blued SIG P230 and I am not recoil sensitive at all and that thing made my hand sting every time I shot it. I have shot the PPK and that was plenty comfortable so I'm not sure of the difference on the P232 but I do know my G26 is much more pleasant to shoot for me. Good luck!

kokapelli
February 18, 2013, 07:43 PM
I had a blued SIG P230 and I am not recoil sensitive at all and that thing made my hand sting every time I shot it. I have shot the PPK and that was plenty comfortable so I'm not sure of the difference on the P232 but I do know my G26 is much more pleasant to shoot for me. Good luck!
Your G26 is a locked breach action while the PPK and P232 are blowback. Blowback always transfers significantly more felt recoil than locked breach actions.

Gary A
February 19, 2013, 01:38 AM
Blowback always transfers significantly more felt recoil than locked breach actions.
I read this a lot and agree with it in principle but the other thing to consider here is that a typical standard pressure 115 grain 9mm round in a Glock 26 will produce something more than double the recoil energy of a typical 90 grain .380 acp hollowpoint fired from a PPK/S. My own perception is that the effect of a locked breech is not enough to overcome that much more recoil energy. To me the .380 might be snappy but the recoil, overall, is less than the 9mm. Obviously, that is my perception and YMMV.

chriske
February 19, 2013, 09:17 AM
I always found my 2"J-frame S&W 640 far more "shootable" than my .380 ACP Walther PPK.
...... and way more reliable to boot !

ezypikns
February 19, 2013, 01:42 PM
the more you feel the recoil.

Try a Brooks A-Grip. it's a wrap for the pistol stock that really helps with controlling a lightweight pistol.

jon_in_wv
February 20, 2013, 10:16 PM
For those pushing the envelope on reloading the 380 in a P3AT or an LCP do yourself a favor and take a caliper to the thinnest part of the chamber in those pistols. Its on the bottom edge near the magazine. You are braver than me if you are doing that. My BG380 is almost three times thicker at its thinnest point than the others. I wouldn't fire anything other than standard pressure in a P3AT/LCP. If you are going beyond that please get a stouter gun so you can still count to ten on your fingers.

Clark
February 21, 2013, 03:45 AM
jon_in_wv
For those pushing the envelope on reloading the 380 in a P3AT or an LCP do yourself a favor and take a caliper to the thinnest part of the chamber in those pistols. Its on the bottom edge near the magazine. You are braver than me if you are doing that. My BG380 is almost three times thicker at its thinnest point than the others. I wouldn't fire anything other than standard pressure in a P3AT/LCP. If you are going beyond that please get a stouter gun so you can still count to ten on your fingers.

Funny you should mention that. I was just collecting that data today.


Chamber wall thickness
Kel -Tec P3AT 0.031"
Ruger LCP 0.037"
Kahr P380 0.063"

Case support
Kahr P380 0.175"
Ruger LCP 0.270"
KelTecP3AT 0.290"

kokapelli
February 21, 2013, 08:03 AM
Clark, if I remember correctly you were approaching 9X19 pressures in your loadings that you fired from your P3AT and you still have all your fingers, right?

Clark
February 21, 2013, 01:25 PM
The LCP and P3AT with case support at .270" and .290" can only get half way between 380 and 9mm pressures before there is a case bulge, per the 90 gr QL calc, but higher than 9mm per the 115 gr calc.

But Quickload is terrible at predicting short straight wall cases way overloaded.
The fire ball of muzzle blast is calculated worst case as burning more in the barrel.

So the P3AT will get a case bulge with 90 gr Gold Dot and Power Pistol at QL at 24 kpsi, but the bulge threshold is at 36 kpsi with 115 gr Win JHP and Power Pistol.

That pressure discrepancy is so large that the numbers have no meaning or usefulness.

What does it all mean?
I think the LCP and P3AT will case bulge threshold before they split the chamber. The pressure of that threshold I don't know.

brickeyee
February 21, 2013, 02:32 PM
You are both fool'n yourself looking for .380 accuracy like a 1911 Target Gun.

I do not think anyone was looking for target accuracy.

BIL's problem was that the damn thing was so painful to shoot he did not practice enough to become proficient.

At the very short rage may of these guns are intended for use at, i would expect my 1911 t leave one slightly ragged hole.

jrdolall
February 21, 2013, 02:43 PM
I don't suggest any of the pocket .380s or 9mms to new shooters or women looking for something smaller. I had a woman, 65ish, early this week that told me she would never shoot another semi after the slide of a P-11 bit her and drew blood. She carries a 642 now.

All of these pocket guns that I have personally shot have more recoil than a full sized fun in the same caliber, they are more likely to have FTE issues, they are harder to rack and they are more likely to bite you. I carry a .380 or a 9mm in my pocket all the time but I have been shooting for a long time and know the drawbacks. I can shoot a full box of .380 in one session without too much trouble but it is not as enjoyable as one of the full size guns.
I do not even have a full size .380. Maybe I should get a Hi Point:) I woul dneed really big pockets for that one.

Clark
February 21, 2013, 03:40 PM
I was at Pinto's gun shop and heard her talking about the new Ruger LC380 will be bigger than the LCP, and easier for women to shoot.

Oh no, after 20 years of trying not to, I have posted about women's hands on a gun forum.

H.m.B
February 21, 2013, 05:37 PM
Blowback always transfers significantly more felt recoil than locked breach actions.

I wonder if an individual's arm strength, hand or forearm size, or physiology reduces the effect of recoil on these types of (blowback) pistols. I had the opportunity to fire a Ruger Super Redhawk in .44 mag a couple of years ago (yeah I know, not the same category) and that had a noticeable recoil though it was still manageable (was using two hands). If I remember correctly, that was more of a roll/flip from the wrist. I think it's fair to say that each person's perception of the effect of recoil is different.

I had a blued SIG P230 and I am not recoil sensitive at all and that thing made my hand sting every time I shot it.

I have the SIG232 (stainless) and do not find the recoil to be a factor at all. Actually, there is a pleasant snappiness to it that makes it fun to shoot. The only sting I've felt is from the slide bite that results in a nice linear cut running parallel to my index finger!

Cokeman
February 21, 2013, 05:45 PM
Kahr P380s are nice in the recoil area.

Clark
February 21, 2013, 07:11 PM
H.m.B
Blowback always transfers significantly more felt recoil than locked breach actions.

I wonder if an individual's arm strength....

Are all generalities false?

:)

I thought about that post, but gave up on reacting directly.
An example of the pitfalls, is that, until slide slam, the blowback is going to couple via the spring and friction, where the locked breech will couple through the spring.
The blowback often has less recoiling mass, in that the barrel does not move.
Do you want to have to quantify those and then minimize them?
I don't.

jon_in_wv
February 23, 2013, 09:27 AM
You are both fool'n yourself looking for .380 accuracy like a 1911 Target Gun.

I fail to see where anyone here made that comparison other than you but people tend to discount the amount of mechanical accuracy these guns have. They are not "belly guns" as some people would say. I've owned and extensively shot the LCP and the BG380. Both are more mechanically accurate than 99% of shooters are capable of shooting. With the laser on my BG380 I can shoot groups at 25 yards as good as any of my larger pistols. With the sights I've shot pieces of clay pigeon at over 25 yards. A target 1911 they are not but neither are they inaccurate.

kokapelli
February 23, 2013, 10:39 AM
of these pocket guns that I have personally shot have more recoil than a full sized fun in the same caliber, they are more likely to have FTE issues, they are harder to rack and they are more likely to bite you. I carry a .380 or a 9mm in my pocket all the time but I have been shooting for a long time and know the drawbacks. I can shoot a full box of .380 in one session without too much trouble but it is not as enjoyable as one of the full size guns.
I do not even have a full size .380. Maybe I should get a Hi Point:) I woul dneed really big pockets for that one.
I guess you haven't shot a P238!

Snowdog
February 23, 2013, 01:39 PM
I guess you haven't shot a P238!

They are sweet in recoil (or lack thereof). Well, there aren't any characteristics about the the P238 that aren't sweet outside the price.

Yesterday I put 200 more rounds of RWS 95gr FMJ through my P238 HD and I would have loved to shoot it more, but I didn't bring enough ammunition. It's a .380acp pistol that you could shoot all afternoon and enjoy every last round. That cannot be said for many other pistols of the size/chambering.

I do believe anyone wanting a mild-recoiling .380acp in a tiny package would be pleasantly surprised and likely won over if they gave the P238 a spin. Getting over the sticker shock is another story... but personally, I think they're well worth it!

CZguy
February 23, 2013, 03:27 PM
I do believe anyone wanting a mild-recoiling .380acp in a tiny package would be pleasantly surprised and likely won over if they gave the P238 a spin. Getting over the sticker shock is another story... but personally, I think they're well worth it!

I feel the same way about the Kahr P-380. It's the same size and weight as a LCP but double the cost.

kokapelli
February 23, 2013, 03:34 PM
I feel the same way about the Kahr P-380. It's the same size and weight as a LCP but double the cost.
The P238 is expensive but it is in a class by itself and still is way below the price of other pocket pistols like the R9 or the Seecamp.

I realize that the R9 and Seecamp pistols are works of art, but when I purchase a gun it's for shooting and art is something I hang on the wall.

toivo
February 23, 2013, 03:50 PM
I had a blued SIG P230 and I am not recoil sensitive at all and that thing made my hand sting every time I shot it.

I have the SIG232 (stainless) and do not find the recoil to be a factor at all. Actually, there is a pleasant snappiness to it that makes it fun to shoot.

The blued 230/232 have an alloy frame. The stainless are all steel and considerably heavier. I believe that might account for different experiences of felt recoil.

Kybill
February 23, 2013, 06:00 PM
"SIG P238 is the answer. My wife, an inexperienced shooter, ran 150 rounds through hers yesterday, and I believe if we'd brought another box to the range, she would have shot that up too."

Same here, my wifes sig P238 is easy to shoot, its a metal gun. My LCP with a Hogue grip doesn't bother me but its mostly plastic and much harder for my wife to control.

the_skunk
February 23, 2013, 06:03 PM
The Sig 238 is single action ... copy of the Colt Mustang. The real gem is the Colt Pony, it's a double action = a safety factor in a pocket pistol

CZ223
February 24, 2013, 12:53 PM
I hear people complain about these little autos all the time and I have never understood it. When I had a Mustang I loved it. I love both of my LCP's. I love my LC9, slightly larger but in 9mm just the same. The next gun on my wish list is the Sig 938, mostly because I am a 1911 guy.
The guns that I have never had a lot of affection for are the small revolvers in 38 and 357. I have had several J frames and 2 SP 101s and I never liked any of them.

hardluk1
February 25, 2013, 04:15 PM
bet this kid ain't shooting the mighty 380. Recoil is all a head game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei_m1mesIo4

OR this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yd4B77PkeaU

rtrwv
May 11, 2013, 12:28 AM
Pleas go shoot a thompson contender in 375 jdj or a s&w 500 with a 4 in barrel or any of the extreme bear defense caliber short barrel guns before you comment on 380 "snappy" recoil. 380 may have a snap to to it but please! :rolleyes:
I just had to get that off off my chest, was not intended to judge or criticize.

CSG
May 11, 2013, 12:57 AM
You know, the LCP becomes a different gun for those who can't get a solid grip on it when you add the specially designed Hogue rubber grip.

I found it snappy but OK with the stock plastic grip but the Hogue really helped it fit *my* hand better and make it far more naturally pointing than before.

BTW, I bought mine to be my primary carry as it's so small but potent enough with good ammo.

Paul7
May 11, 2013, 04:04 PM
bet this kid ain't shooting the mighty 380. Recoil is all a head game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei_m1mesIo4

OR this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yd4B77PkeaU
Bad comparison, that .45 is a lot heavier.

josiewales
May 11, 2013, 08:02 PM
The worst gun I own for recoil is my NAA .22 lr. Pain in neck.

Potatohead
May 13, 2013, 04:28 PM
However, Sigs P238 is a very soft shooting .380
i second that

Potatohead
May 13, 2013, 04:34 PM
My only gripe it's like aiming a beer bottle

i was pretty good at aiming beer bottles in my youth....

jhb
May 13, 2013, 06:11 PM
i find the .380 very mild and with almost no recoil, but i think the factor here is how many rounds one is shooting and what gun it is, their hand size and how high they grip........also over time perception changes....

there is a direct correlation, in my mind, between the amount of rounds, the pistol design, grip, and in the end perception of recoil.

i can remember when i first got my keltec p32, i thought it was a handful, but when i changed the mags to have the extended grip so i could almost get my 3rd finger on the grip and shot it a bunch my perception changed to very mild. so a combination of being able to get more fingers and a better grip helped me, and shooting it a bunch over time changed my perception to very mild recoil and easy to handle. as usual ymmv.....but this is mine.

Roadking Rider
May 14, 2013, 08:35 AM
I can't say I enjoy shooting my Kel Tec p3at all that much. Then again I did not buy it to be a range toy. It was bought as a SD tool for when I need to deep CC. A .380 has it's place, but not as my EDC pistol.

Warp
May 14, 2013, 09:27 AM
My P3AT, before I sold it due to lack of reliability and durability, wasn't exactly fun or easy to shoot.

Yeah, it's tiny and fits in pretty much any pocket, in a pocket holster, printing less than a wallet...if it prints at all.

But I have come to the conclusion that the micro .380 pocket guns (aka mouse guns) are simply not reliable, durable, and shootable enough to be anything more than a BUG.

And, IMO, a J-frame snub nose revolver makes a better BUG.


I'm sure a big part of difficulty shooting the P3AT was that only about 1.5 fingers fit on the grip, and the trigger reach is so short my finger was all kinds of cramped.

SDGlock23
May 14, 2013, 11:04 AM
Had a few LCP's and they shot real well. A handful no, I thought it barely recoiled. Now my CM40 on the other hand, can be a torquey with the right load.

Snowdog
May 14, 2013, 11:13 AM
I'll repeat that the .380acp is a very sweet round if the platform allows it.

.380acp recoil from a small P3AT would be on the nasty side, I'm sure. However, the same round is a pussycat from a Sig P238.

I find that my P238 is a bit larger and much heavier than my P32. However, though the difference is there, it's not substantial, IMO.

Included are a couple pictures of my P32 and P238. Notice the P32 nearly covers the P238 completely when placed on top. I could shoot that P238 all day and be ready the next day to start all over again. The recoil seems almost supernaturally mild.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7288/8737645083_dd74fe50ac_z.jpg

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7281/8738762214_b205e5b4ed_z.jpg

Roadking Rider
May 14, 2013, 03:56 PM
The P3at is a bit of a nasty shooter as far as recoil. However I have over 800 flawless rounds through mine and do not treat it to kindly but it has never failed to go bang after I did a Fluff and Buff to it early on. I've had it wet from rain and sweat, even jumped into a pool one time with it in my cargo shorts pocket. Ooops. Simple blew it dry with a shop vac gave in a little lubing with some oil the guy had in his garage and it still shoots as it did from day one. I have to laugh when I hear people say these pistols are finicky and need to be spotless to work properly. I do not put another pistol I own through the hell that I've put this thing through.
This pic makes the pistol look nicer than it really is in person. Even though the picture isn't the best.
184007

rw
May 16, 2013, 08:56 AM
Issac Newton would predict about 20% more action/ reaction out of a 115gr 9mm cartridge over a 95 gr 9mm kurz or .380 cartridge. Logic predicts that a fixed barrel .380 will kick more than a spring dampened 9mm. I guarantee that my sissy nickle plated taurus 9mm kicks more than my stainless Walther ppk. Am I still a sissy when I shoot a stainless gun?

But oddly enough I do get a power rush when firing my 357 magnum double barreled (stainless) derringer. The thrill of almost shooting off the end of my finger where it wants to wrap over the end of the barrel adds enough adreniline that I barley feel the recoil. Viva la differance no?

Consider a Ruger 22 rimfire that has a recoilless floating barrel with a couplof internal wires that further distribute the recoil over the flashy silvery 45 Colt look a like with snappy gold accent trim.

Alas politically correct comedy is rarely laughable.

Hunter2011
May 17, 2013, 11:06 PM
Thing is, the weight of the LCP for example is more that twice less than than of the baby Glock. So I would say that the lack of weight, coupled with the extreme small and thin grip, the LCP will kick almost twice as hard as the G26. So despite never having shot a small 380 I do believe they can be snappy.
If a 380 gives 220 fpe and a 9mmp gives 280 fpe. Doing a quick calculation the G26 weigh 560g, the LCP only 266g. Shooting a 220fpe 380 round in the LCP must feel like shooting a 460 fpe round in the G26. That is almost twice the recoil of a standard G26 round. Am I completely wrong or do I have a point?

HKGuns
May 17, 2013, 11:22 PM
Some of the ladies posting in this thread need to shoot one of these.

http://hkguns.zenfolio.com/img/s8/v78/p1423643648-5.jpg

Hunter2011
May 17, 2013, 11:56 PM
Ag man. There are guns that kicks more. But even woman can shoot a LCP. So that is nothing to brag about. But I have to say I do think the OP of this thread was not wrong to say these pistols are snappy.

9 fingers
May 18, 2013, 09:15 AM
My .380s, minuse the new Mauser HSc nickle plated, haven't taken any pics yet. We can't carry in NJ and I probably wouldn't any way, being a hack (but a decent shot). The CZ 83 is my favorite but a bit large for carry. IF I were to carry it would be the Mauser, small enough and relatively snag free, and a great shooter (as well as a looker). But they are all steel (the only way I buy guns) and not much recoil from any of them. The Beretta 70s is a bit snappy but not bad.
9 fingers
http://i47.tinypic.com/2co29s7.jpg

loneviking
May 18, 2013, 09:45 AM
The Bodyguard .380 was the most uncomfortable gun to shoot I've ever owned. I'm no stranger to recoil, shooting a .357 reguarly with heavy handloads. I sold the Bodyguard and bought a Browning BDA .380. The Browning is a joy to shoot with soft recoil, tack driver accuaracy and up to 20 rounds on board.

weblance
May 18, 2013, 10:05 AM
I started out my 380 adventure with 2 LCPs. I never really liked shooting them, they were unpleasant, and unreliable. Follow up shots were difficult because the little pistol would shift around in my hand. I then purchased a Bersa Thunder 380, and that was a much better platform for shooting the 380. Not a pocket gun by any means, but small and reasonably light. Never a malfunction of any kind. Then I bought a Sig P238, and that was another step in the right direction. Softer shooting than the Thunder, smaller, about the same weight, and very reliable. I sold both LCPs and dont have any sad feelings about that. I still have the Bersa, and the Sig, but because of the weight in my pocket, dont carry either. My EDC is a Kel-Tec P32. It is everything I was hoping the LCP would be. Its accurate, controllable, and most importantly, Utterly reliable.

SKILCZ
May 18, 2013, 10:50 AM
For me, the P3AT recoils in a way that the trigger guard slams into my finger in a weird way. It makes it uncomfortable to shoot a lot. I don't think it's so much a recoil issue as a small pistol with long trigger travel issue.

I can shoot a Kahr PM9 w/o issue, I think b/c the gun is a little bigger and I can grip it better, plus the trigger has shorter travel & is better. I shoot full house 10 mm hand loads, .44 magnum, etc., and none of those bother me b/c the recoil is at the wrist or arm level.

With the P3AT, it's a trigger finger recoil b/c I don't get much grip on the gun. The P3AT is great at what it is (a reliable pocket pistol for deep concealment), but it's probably the least fun gun to shoot, IMO. Take that .380 and put it in a Sig or Bersa, and it's no problem at all, IMO. Those don't conceal as easily, so it's a trade off.

Gary A
May 18, 2013, 10:52 AM
Hunter2011 said Am I completely wrong or do I have a point?
I think you do have a point but a further point is that neither a Glock 26 nor an LCP is onerous to shoot. I am not a big guy nor do I think I am particularly strong and I do not find the LCP to be a problem. Yes it is snappy, but it is still a .380. My rough calculations still show less free recoil energy with the LCP than with the G26 but the gap is certainly narrowed for the reasons you mention. My biggest objection was the trigger, however, shooting one side-by-side with a P3AT I felt the Kel-Tec had the better trigger but the LCP was more shootable and I had better results with the Ruger. That's what I bought. Recently I purchased one of the "updated" (I call them second generation) LCPs with a shorter trigger but haven't had a chance to shoot it yet.

AntiSpin
May 18, 2013, 09:11 PM
The heaviest rounds that I have fired are the .357 (many of them out of a 2" Ruger SP101), the .45 ACP and the .44 Mag.

Recoil doesn't bother me and I've been comfortable firing all of those, but I have to say that I find firing my .380 Astra Constable less comfortable.

Still, I wouldn't part with the Constable for anything; it is brilliantly engineered (better than the PPK in my opinion) and is perfect, for me, for summertime carry.

I am a skinny guy, and under light summer clothing my 1911 simply will not conceal adequately. But the short, thin 25-ounce Constable, in a thin, lightweight Uncle Mike's #1 Super Belt Slide holster, just disappears.

And the SBS holster still leaves me with thumb-break security, which I like very much.

And, as mentioned, the brilliant engineering gives capabilities that others in the category simply do not have.

hedrok
May 20, 2013, 09:26 AM
I'm not sure why...maybe just the design of the gun for my hand...but my Dad's .380 Belgian Browning 4" target pistol is 1 of the MOST painful guns to shoot that I own. The other is a Seecamp 380. The Browning is for pleasure - so it stays in the safe 'cause it gives zero pleasure.
The Seecamp gets carried a LOT...especially during the spring, summer and fall...and if I need it...well, I NEED it.

golden
May 21, 2013, 03:22 PM
MARB4,

I have found that some .380ACP pistols are not enjoyable to shoot. You have three choices:

1. Lighter kicking ammo. I have found the COR BON Powerball ammo seems to have a lighter kick because of the light bullet. It looks and feeds like ball ammo, but will expand.

2. Lighter caliber. I have found the .32ACP works well in some guns. Many of the classic pocket pistols are made in .32ACP and .380ACP. You get more power and recoil from the .380ACP.
You get less power and LESS RECOIL when shooting the same gun in .32ACP. The WALTHER PPK is a good example.

3. Bigger gun. I have a SIG 232 with an aluminum frame. It is a sweet shooting gun. The lightweight frame is offset by the excellent grip shape for me.
Some of the mid size .380ACP pistols like the SIG 232 and BERETTA 84/85 are light for their size, but have large enough grips to be comfortable when you shoot. They also usually have better sights and in the case of the SIG, an excellent trigger and user friendly safety/decocker system.

The only negative with these larger guns is that they are harder to conceal

good luck,

Jim

meanmrmustard
May 21, 2013, 09:24 PM
Some of the ladies posting in this thread need to shoot one of these.

http://hkguns.zenfolio.com/img/s8/v78/p1423643648-5.jpg
Weak.

Smith X-frame, .460 S&W. Actually a joy to fire, knocks deer down.

And yet, its built to be what it is...a big bore revolver. It's heavy, it doesn't snap wrists.

Yet, range trips with a TCP in tow suck. They hurt, web, palm, what more needs be said.

Comparing a steel revolver to a polymer, locked breech "sissy pistol" is irrelevant.

kokapelli
May 21, 2013, 09:41 PM
Weak.

Smith X-frame, .460 S&W. Actually a joy to fire, knocks deer down.

And yet, its built to be what it is...a big bore revolver. It's heavy, it doesn't snap wrists.

Yet, range trips with a TCP in tow suck. They hurt, web, palm, what more needs be said.

Comparing a steel revolver to a polymer, blowback "sissy pistol" is irrelevant.
I can see you have a lot of experience so I'm surprised to see you referring to the locked breach TCP as a blowback!

Kind of hurts your credibility.

Rugerspyderon
May 21, 2013, 09:58 PM
I agree must get Hoguw grip and 13 spring for LCP. Awesome. Not hard to shoot at all and accurate.

meanmrmustard
May 22, 2013, 06:33 AM
I can see you have a lot of experience so I'm surprised to see you referring to the locked breach TCP as a blowback!

Kind of hurts your credibility.
You're right, I must have been thinking of the earlier talk of the P64. Apologies. However, I do not seek credibility. Take my experiences as you'd prefer.

No matter, I've since gotten rid of the TCP, with no love lost. I do not envy it's current owner.

That's credible enough for me: Knowing when to say enough is enough, and rid myself of an uncomfortable, unreliable gun. My hand thanks me for that.

Doesn't hurt a bit.

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