Defence with antique firearms


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monotonous_iterancy
February 7, 2013, 05:46 PM
I remember skimming through a book in a store once, I don't remember what it was about, or what the title was.

The book recommended that people who lived in areas with strict gun control get an antique weapon to defend themselves with. The book specifically mentioned a break-action .44 Russian.

How feasible is this? Are there loopholes in places like NYC that would allow that? I'd imagine that if someone had to ever actually use it to defend themselves, they'd be charged. That's assuming you could find an antique that was safe to fire.

Also, on a similar note, have any of you ever carried or used an antique or a reproduction as a defensive weapon?

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Equestrian
February 7, 2013, 05:55 PM
What about a modern manufacture black powder revolver, fairly reliable and in NC technically not a gun?

Steel Horse Rider
February 7, 2013, 06:02 PM
I have several antique black powder weapons I would prefer to not be shot with. They may have moved at lower velocities but they made up for that with bulk....

monotonous_iterancy
February 7, 2013, 06:06 PM
What about a modern manufacture black powder revolver, fairly reliable and in NC technically not a gun?

It's close. Is there a story go along with this?

Fryerpower
February 7, 2013, 06:10 PM
Take a look at the Curio & Relic list...There are some VERY good firearms on that list. I even heard some talk on this site about how the C&R designation might exempt such wonderful CCW weapons as the CZ-82. I believe the C&R designation exempts them from the 7 round limit!

Here is a list of C&Rs for sale at one companies website:

http://www.classicfirearms.com/c-r-eligible

Jim

silicosys4
February 7, 2013, 06:10 PM
Interesting article that addresses that very question

http://www.firearmstalk.com/entries/Black-Powder-Pistol-Home-Defense.html

goon
February 7, 2013, 06:41 PM
A Ruger Old Army would also work as a suitable HD weapon. But no one should have to ever use one for that, and against a couple attackers armed with Glocks, you are outgunned. There is no getting around that.
IDK if conversion cylinders are available for them, but with others that can take standard pressure .45 Colt in a conversion cylinder, that at least opens up the ability to get a decent JHP defensive round to minimize over penetration. Best plan on having two of them around though... because you're not going to have time to reload.

And against those two guys armed with Glocks... how about a Broomhandle Mauser with a shoulder stock?

Solo
February 7, 2013, 06:41 PM
I wouldn't mind having a Tokarev around for self-defense.

monotonous_iterancy
February 7, 2013, 06:55 PM
I will add that .44 Russian is a metallic cartridge, although the gun that fires it is from the late 1800s.

Pat C.
February 7, 2013, 07:34 PM
1858 Army Remington Rep. Loaded with 4# shoot . Only problem is the smoke!!

Tommygunn
February 7, 2013, 07:38 PM
BE VERY CAREFUL!
Antique guns may be technically "not guns" in accord to federal law but if you are carrying them or using them for self defense then your local police dept. and other law enforcement officials (such as district attorneys) will not treat them that way. They will consider them to be loaded guns, just like a modern Glock 19 or Sig.
This is a legal matter and I suggest asking a qualified attorney if you don't understand how this could be.
I'm not that nor have I played Hamilton Burger in any TV series.

splattergun
February 7, 2013, 07:42 PM
Technically, yes, as long as the antique or reproduction gun fires safely it is capable of stopping a bad guy.

Legally, please check with a legal professional before proceeding.

Manco
February 7, 2013, 08:12 PM
As long as they're fully functional, they'll do the same job they had always done. Maybe that's a bit too obvious a statement? :)

PRM
February 7, 2013, 09:25 PM
1858 Army Remington Rep. Loaded with 4# shoot . Only problem is the smoke!!


The Uberti New Army 1858 is one of my favorite C&B pistols - but what the heck is 4# shoot???

ball3006
February 7, 2013, 09:37 PM
Early pre 1898 Mosin Nagant M91 rifles come to mind.....1891 Argentine Mausers too....chris3

Kaeto
February 7, 2013, 09:48 PM
In NY you may own a black powder handgun, but if you have the means to shoot it it must be registered.

ApacheCoTodd
February 7, 2013, 10:23 PM
I figure nearly all the antiques of quality were at one time state of the art and as such should be equally effective today.

Note though that I'm not one who believes that multi reload engagements with armored up opponents is the norm or even likely.

Hardtarget
February 7, 2013, 10:38 PM
I actually knew a man that could not leagally own a firearm. So, he bought a black powder revolver for home defense. Then one day he got into an argument with his brother in law...and shot him. He will be in prison for a while.

Mark

PRM
February 8, 2013, 08:12 AM
I was into single action guns before the current SASS interest. The one gun that I have always regretted selling was a New Model #3 S&W in 44 Russian. This was truly one of the most accurate and fun guns to shoot I ever owned.

Currently, I have a Colt 2nd Generation SAA in .45LC that I sent back to the custom shop and had a .45 ACP cylinder fitted to it. Makes a nice combo and the .45 ACP cylinder has more than paid for itself in ammo cost. I also have a custom built Colt Bisley with pre-ban elephant ivory grips in .44 Special that fits the bill for most any shooting need. I would not feel outgunned in the least with either of these. When concealment is more of a concern, I do carry a Perfected Model S&W in .38 S&W.

C&B guns are great fun. When I'm out around the farm, I occasionally have one of them with me. Although slow to reload, this type of weapon has been doing the job for well over 150 years. My pocket models have also been stocked with pre-ban ivory.

Roadking Rider
February 8, 2013, 08:36 AM
I protect my home with a CZ82 quite often. It really is a great pistol and Hornaday makes some very nice HP's for it. If I need to reach out and touch someone at a greater distance I always have my old M1 Garand or Mosin Nagant or Yugo SKS. :D

MedWheeler
February 8, 2013, 11:23 AM
Then one day he got into an argument with his brother in law...and shot him. He will be in prison for a while.

Okay, but what's being asked here is about the possession of the "antique" gun where/when others are prohibited. Is he in prison for the gun, its unlawful use, or both? In other words, would he still be in prison if he had shot his brother-in-law under the same exact circumstances, but while using a legally-possessed modern firearm?

brickeyee
February 8, 2013, 03:24 PM
Many states have no 'antique' exception, and most will be glad to consider even a BP revolver or single shot a 'deadly weapon' whose possession is also verboten.

Trying to slice out an exception to a state law can get very dicey.

Statute law is NOT the only law.
You will have to check case (common) law.

Do you think you want to stand in front of a judge in an anti-gun state and try to explain that your BP revolver is not a gun?

silicosys4
February 8, 2013, 03:46 PM
Also,
You can legally purchase with no FFL paperwork, a replica blackpowder pistol.
You can then legally purchase with no FFL paperwork, a new conversion cylinder to put in it, that will allow your pistol to take .38s&w, .38 spcl, or .45 colt metallic cartridges.
You now have a cartridge firing revolver, with no FFL paperwork.
Its pretty much just as difficult to reload as the blackpowder version, as some conversions don't have a loading gate and the cylinder must be taken out of the gun to be reloaded.
Some do have a loading gate though. I believe the colt navy replica conversion cylinders can be had with a loading gate for .38S&W.

Although, there is no great loophole there, since you can get many antique firearms that do not require FFL paperwork, that will take metallic cartridges still available today.

gamestalker
February 8, 2013, 04:00 PM
I knew a guy that was on federal parole for bank robbery, and he was legal to own and operate his C&B wheel gun, so he said. I've been curious about this particular for some time now concerning convicted felons in Arizona.

GS

hueyville
February 8, 2013, 04:07 PM
My guess is by the time you get to the jury whether you clocked someone with a Glock or a Flintlock the jury is going to see it as a gun on the evidence table. Self defense or whatever, if your in an unfriendly state and the District Attorney wants to pursue you its going to be a bad day.

Cosmoline
February 8, 2013, 04:41 PM
I also have a custom built Colt Bisley with pre-ban elephant ivory grips in .44 Special that fits the bill for most any shooting need.

!! Personally I'd rather take a bullet than risk having that thing tossed into some evidence locker. That's the gun you get other guns to protect.

The-Reaver
February 8, 2013, 05:07 PM
lol, I clocked my ROA with a 220 conical at just under 1k FPS

I'd say it will do its job.

Sistema1927
February 8, 2013, 05:14 PM
While a C&B revolver will still kill like it did in the 19th Century, this kind of talk is defeatism.

If the anti -Freedom crowd gets their way, it will be illegal to defend yourself, even in your own home, and using any device or implement. Think that I am kidding? Just look at the UK.

Give no ground, defend Freedom on all fronts.

PRM
February 8, 2013, 06:24 PM
While a C&B revolver will still kill like it did in the 19th Century, this kind of talk is defeatism.

I must be missing something. The statement is true - how is that in itself defeatism? I will agree that there are better choices today. But if a person likes the older guns, they are certainly adequate to do whatever is needed.

The OP asked..."have any of you ever carried or used an antique or a reproduction as a defensive weapon?" I've been using C&B revolvers since the 70s. When I was younger, I loved to shoot, and could shoot a lot more with these than I could with cartridge guns. Aside from the number of rounds I have put down range with them. I have hunted, taken small game them, killed coyotes that were bothering livestock, used them on hikes in the woods, around the farm and just about any other use I have needed a firearm for. I took the OP as asking if they were a viable arm.

Pat C.
February 8, 2013, 07:29 PM
PRM #4 Shoot Shootgun pellets!!

Nickel Plated
February 8, 2013, 07:48 PM
Well since NYC is being thrown around as an example here I think I'll chime in. Here, antiques are exempt from firearm status same as anywhere else in the country. The difference however is here it counts as an antique only if it stays unloaded and you do not have the ammo necessary to fire it. Once you get bullets, powder, and caps, your cap n' ball revolver becomes no different than a Glock or 1911 and is subject tot he same registration and licensing laws.
On top of that, even if the government doesn't consider it a "firearm" per-say. It will still most definitely count as a deadly weapon which are also illegal to carry.

In short, any place where you would have legal problems defending yourself with a modern semi, an antique is not likely to help you much. If you decide to disregard the law and carry anyway then you might as well get a modern pistol. The punishment for getting caught will be largely the same, but you'll atleast have a weapon more suited for the task.

monotonous_iterancy
February 9, 2013, 12:18 AM
I was speaking more of home defense.

If not NY, then what about places like NJ?

gym
February 9, 2013, 09:59 AM
You might be better off with a knife at close range, especially if you had the element of suprise.

brickeyee
February 9, 2013, 03:21 PM
Here, antiques are exempt from firearm status same as anywhere else in the country.

ONLY under Federal law.

States are all over the place.

Nickel Plated
February 9, 2013, 04:32 PM
ONLY under Federal law.

States are all over the place.
Like i said, here.

Local NYC law basically reads that any firearm made prior to 1899 or replica of one. That does not fire self contained cartridges or only fires cartridges that are not available in the "regular channels of commerce" (whatever that means) is an antique and not a firearm as long as you do not possess the ammunition required to fire it.

State law is the same except they don't care weather you have ammo for it or not.

I'm sure MOST states are the same. With of course SEVERAL EXCEPTIONS like IL, NJ, and MA I believe.

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