243 or 7mm-08


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bantam9
February 8, 2013, 11:08 AM
anyone have any input. looking for a good starter kid gun.

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viking499
February 8, 2013, 11:22 AM
How big is the kid?

bantam9
February 8, 2013, 11:39 AM
She's 11yo, about 5'1", the other kid is 5' 11" about 175lbs. I'm thinking I might like one of these cheap beater rifles as well in a smaller caliber for deer/turkes/coyotes. Easy on the shoulder as I get older, and easy on my daughters as well. Just looking for input as to crossover use for hunting. Does recoil become more of an issue going to 7mm-08, than the .243?

chas08
February 8, 2013, 11:53 AM
I own both! my wife prefers the .243 and I the 7mm08! The felt recoil in each is very similar, with the 08 having slightly more. Ammo availability for the .243 is somewhat better, every Mom & Pop store in the rurals around here has it. The 7mm08, not so much! Either, is plenty potent for the whitetails around here. Either would be a good choice! Both of ours are remington 700's.

As a side note; I do not reload. I can tell you from personal experience that around here the .243 ammo is considerably cheaper to purchase than the 7mm08 ammo. with the .243 going for around $15 a box and the 08 going for $25+

Taurus 617 CCW
February 8, 2013, 11:56 AM
.243 simply for the point of ammo availability. If you plan on reloading, then I guess it's a moot point.

joed
February 8, 2013, 12:03 PM
Go with the .243 and don't look back. It's a great cartridge, I wanted one for years and now own one.

I'd rather see a kid with a .243 than a 7mm-08 and developing a flinch.

shaggy430
February 8, 2013, 12:07 PM
.243. I've never really been impressed with the 7mm-08. It can't do anything that the .243 can't do just as well and the .308 couldn't do better.

jmr40
February 8, 2013, 12:09 PM
A 243 isn't just a starter gun. With good bullets it is good for anything in the lower 48. I'd buy the 243 and she'll be set for life.

bantam9
February 8, 2013, 12:39 PM
I think I was leaning 243 at the start of all this. Low recoil being the most important to me at the moment. Never had one, never shot one, but always heard good things about them.

viking499
February 8, 2013, 12:41 PM
Start with a 243.

Kachok
February 8, 2013, 01:51 PM
I started with a 243 many years back but recently bought my first 7mm-08. 6mms (.243cal) leave something to be desired in the terminal performance department, and 7mm tend to kick a little more then is comfortable for small/beginer shooters. Split the difference and you have the 6.5mms which I feel are the ideal compromise. 260 Rem, 6.5 Creedmore, and 6.5x55 are as ideal a low recoil hunting cartridge as you could ever ask for. I prefer the 6.5x55 but I handload everything I shoot, if you are buying factory ammo the Creedmore would be my first choice. Browning, Savage, and T/C all chamber the Creedmoore.

dprice3844444
February 8, 2013, 01:57 PM
if your thinking about 7mm/08,might as well just get a 308

Kachok
February 8, 2013, 02:21 PM
if your thinking about 7mm/08,might as well just get a 308
True enough, just remember the fit of the rifle can make just as much difference as the cartridge, my Winchester 70 Featherweight in 308 Win has less felt recoil then my Browning 7mm-08.

Offfhand
February 8, 2013, 02:24 PM
.260 Remington

Bio-Chem
February 8, 2013, 02:29 PM
i've got to disagree. I think the 7mm/08 is easily the better all around cartridge. especially for your 5'11" kid. The lighter weight softer shooting bullets in the 7mm/08 are still good for deer sized game, and don't kick noticeably more than the heavy weight .243 bullets. I'd chose 7mm/08 and not look back. sorry to be the dissenting voice here

Captcurt
February 8, 2013, 02:51 PM
.260 Remington
Fantastic round for kids or grownups. My pick for the perfect whitetail round.
.

Kachok
February 8, 2013, 03:53 PM
The mid ranged 6.5mms (260, 6.5x55, 6.5 Creedmore, 6.5x57, and 6.5x47 Lapua) are kind of the ideal balance, let's compare to some of the more common hunting cartridges.
To be totally fair lets compare at factory speeds since not all of us reload, and with common bullet weight and with common Ballistic Tip bullets. Keep in mind these are all built on the same 308 parent case. For recoil I figured 45gr of powder seeing as that is about standard for anything in the 308 case. All trajectorys are figured with a 100yd zero.
95gr 243 2950fps
120gr 260 2950fps
140gr 7mm-08 2850fps
150gr 308 2820fps
243 Win 300yd trajectory -12.2" 300yd energy 1074ft/lbs recoil energy 10lbs
260 Rem 300yd trajectory -11.6" 300yd energy 1494ft/lbs recoil energy 13lbs
7mm-08 300yd trajectory -12.5" 300yd energy 1659ft/lbs recoil energy 15lbs
308 Win 300yd trajectory -13.2" 300yd energy 1652ft/lbs Recoil energy 16lbs
That is why I like the 6.5s, easily the flattest shooting of the bunch with energy rivaling the big boys and hardly any more kick then the 243 (I cannot tell the difference) figure it delivers over 40% more energy on target with the added caliber mass and momentum of an extra 25gr and half a mm it makes for a strong argument.
For comparison my 6.5x55 300yd trajectory -10.5" 300yd energy 1621ft/lbs recoil energy 15lbs.

wgp
February 8, 2013, 04:02 PM
Any of these will work. One not mentioned, if you should run across a good one at a good price, is the .257 Roberts, which has been used to start my older son and children of some friends. Sits in between the .243 and the 7mm-08.

TwoEyedJack
February 8, 2013, 04:10 PM
A 243 isn't just a starter gun. With good bullets it is good for anything in the lower 48. I'd buy the 243 and she'll be set for life.
Except elk, moose, large bears, and caribou.

shaggy430
February 8, 2013, 04:16 PM
According to my dad, who lived in Montana for a number of years and knew a lot of Native Americans there, he said that a good number of them used the .243 for elk and moose with great results.

Kachok
February 8, 2013, 04:28 PM
243s, 257s and yes even my 6.5s need surgical shot placement for large bear class game. None of those would be my first choice on an elk hunt, I have a 30-06 with 180gr SGKs for that :)

chas08
February 8, 2013, 04:28 PM
if your thinking about 7mm/08,might as well just get a 308

And if you're thinking about a .308 you might as well get a 30/06!...lol

Captcurt
February 8, 2013, 05:17 PM
According to my dad, who lived in Montana for a number of years and knew a lot of Native Americans there, he said that a good number of them used the .243 for elk and moose with great results.
You have to realize that Native Americans have the chance to choose their shots. If the angle or range isn't right they have the option to wait for a better shot. Be it that day, the next day or the next week. Most of us don't have that option. Plus they are probably better versed in stalking. The question isn't if the 243 is capable of taking large game, it is, but is the shooter disciplined enough to know his or her limitations?

Mobuck
February 8, 2013, 07:10 PM
I'd suggest the 243 over the 7mm08. I have both and will simply say"you know you've stepped up to a big game rifle" when you light off a 7mm08. I ceratinly wouldn't expect one of my Grandkids to start their centerfire experience with a 7mm08.

Skyshot
February 8, 2013, 07:17 PM
The .243 would be my pick, but the .260 Rem or 7mm08 is not bad either. If you going with a lightweight rifle stick to the .243

Art Eatman
February 8, 2013, 10:50 PM
Heh. At age 16 I was 5'-11" and weighed about 125. Had to spin around three times just to cast a shadow. The steel buttplate on my 1917 Enfield about beat me to death. :D

As far as a .243, with handloads I've done in prairie dogs, coyotes, jackrabbits, feral cats and tagged some two dozen bucks.

My legs cheated and got old, so I gave up on toting 9.5 pounds and went to a 700 Ti in 7mm08. The stock is a nice fit, so recoil is no problem, even for 6.5 pounds total weight. Ballistics? It's a .308 with ten grains less bullet weight in the common deer loading. Big deal. I mostly like it because the aesthetics of the case proportions appeal to me a good bit more than the .308. :D

wlewisiii
February 8, 2013, 11:05 PM
I like the 7mm-08 better because I hand load. I can duplicate the 7x57 Mauser in a light short action rifle or I can make puffballs if that's what I want. For me, it's the better choice.

Might find a way to let your daughter try both rather than choosing for her.

Hokkmike
February 8, 2013, 11:19 PM
The 7mm08, of the two you presented, will be the life-long keeper. It is a good starting gun as well.

Swampman
February 9, 2013, 01:14 AM
I agree with wgp , the .257 Roberts is an excellent deer cartridge with very mild recoil. Unfortunately if you don't handload, it's not that great a choice since the most common factory ammunition features ridiculous round nose bullets and very low velocities.
For a non handloader the 6.5 Creedmore, .260 Remington or 6.5 Swede would be better choices. They'll shoot at least as flat as a .243 and carry more energy, they're also likely to kick less than the 7/08 while having a flatter trajectory.

Abel
February 9, 2013, 01:50 AM
If you don't hand load, go 243 and save yourself about $10 every time you buy a box of ammo.

Kachok
February 9, 2013, 01:58 AM
If you don't hand load, go 243 and save yourself about $10 every time you buy a box of ammo.
I would not say that, I can get 6.5x55 for $13 a box, sure it is a Serbian Import but it shoots 3/4" and kills deer as dead as anything. Same company sells 7mm-08 for $15 a box I won't comment on that seeing as my 7mm-08 is picky as hell and does not like ANYTHING from a factory, but if your rifle shoots it I am sure their 7mm soft point performs as well as their 6.5mm.

savanahsdad
February 9, 2013, 02:26 AM
I bought my 7mm-08 the 1st or 2nd year Savage came out with the short actions (1997 ?) in a weather warrior, for my kids to hunt with, my 105 lbs daughter was the first when she was 14 years old , the gun will do sub MOA , she could shoot about 2" groups at 100 yards ,on her first day at the range "no flinch " my boys realy like it , as I started them with a 35rem shooting 200gr RN with a steel butt plate,:what: ,,,, I found 140gr work best in my 7mm-08 , same as I shoot in my 270's I hunted a few years with a pre 64 Win mod 70 in 243win , great gun but no less kick than the 7mm-08,
so have been there ,done that ,I'd say go with the 7mm-08 , I hand load for it , but at my local Fleet Farm 7mm-08 is only $5 more than the 243win

frankmako
February 9, 2013, 03:02 AM
243 will work for a starter gun. later on move them up to the 7mm-08.

mljdeckard
February 9, 2013, 03:19 AM
I have a .257 Bob, and it's less recoil than a .308, but not down in the same class as a .243. I wouldn't start my 11 y/o son with it.

T.R.
February 9, 2013, 10:34 AM
Remington makes Managed Recoil ammunition for several cartridges including .308 which would be my first choice.

TR

WoodchuckAssassin
February 9, 2013, 10:57 AM
There have been so many good calibers mentioned that it's enough to make your head spin. Every single one of them - from the 243 to the 308 to the 260 - will do the job all the way out to 400 yards. With the recent ammo "crisis," I would take a trip to your local gunshop/walmart and see what they have in stock and pick your caliber based on that.

Anyone who shoots a 280 is not gaining much over a 270 besides being able to say "Hey, I shoot a 280."

Anyone who shoots a 6.5 Creedmoor over a 243 is making a lateral move, but can still say "Hey, I shoot a 6.5 Creedmoor," and be able to stick their chest out a little further.

As far as the 7mm-08, I would personally love to have one, but if I found a rifle that felt just right in 243, 260, 280, or 308, I'd grab it and go.

If you know what rifle you'd be interested in, that will help A LOT. Almost ALL rifles will come with a 243 option, so at the end of the day, I think the 243 will be the breadwinner.

Taurus 617 CCW
February 9, 2013, 11:12 AM
A 243 isn't just a starter gun. With good bullets it is good for anything in the lower 48.

My hunting partner uses a .243 for deer and elk and has filled his tags almost every year for the last 20+ years. Yes there are larger calibers such as .308 that are more suitable for larger game but if a .243 is all you have, it will do. You have to have proper bullet placement no matter what cartridge you use. FWIW I have a 30-06 for my one hunting caliber. It's a bit much for new shooters but I only shoot it a couple times a year.

Pilot
February 9, 2013, 11:17 AM
If you don't reload, I'd go .243. If you reload, then 7mm-08 would be a great choice.

However, Kachok makes a GREAT argument for a .260 Remington. To me this is pretty equivalent to the 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser ballistics which I've always thought was one of the best all around rifle rounds going. It is to the 6.5x55 as the 7mm-08 is to the 7mmx57 Mauser round.

I reload, so all of these can overlap considerably, but if you are stuck with factory ammo, that's a different story. .243 would be the more plentiful and available.

The_Armed_Therapist
February 9, 2013, 11:38 AM
For what you mentioned, the .243. The 7mm-08 would be better for larger animals. However, the .243 is just fine for coyotes and deer, recoils less, and is more versatile. You can use 100+ grains on deer, or even 75-grains on smaller critters than coyotes. The 7mm-08 would be quite powerful for coyote. .243's trajectory is fantastic, as well.

However, there are no major reasons for not getting the 7mm-08, either. Both would be good enough; the .243 probably a little better.

Kachok
February 9, 2013, 12:36 PM
Anyone who shoots a 6.5 Creedmoor over a 243 is making a lateral move, but can still say "Hey, I shoot a 6.5 Creedmoor," and be able to stick their chest out a little further.

I don't think that is at all accurate, as I have already pointed out the mid ranged 6.5s enjoy a healthy advantage in terms of trajectory, wind drift, MPBR, energy at range, barrel wear, and the added confidence of a larger caliber heavier bullet. I could break that down with any bullet you wish but the results are similar across the board, the mid ranged 6.5s hold every measurable advantage over their smaller cousin often by a healthy margin, and they are the only larger caliber to do so with identical powder charges in both the 308, and 06 parent case, that is highly unusual in the world of external ballistics (though we see a similar phenomenon with .338 caliber) Something of a ballistic "Sweet Spot" that is why I am a fan of the 6.5mms, it does all of that with a "not even noticeable" increase in felt recoil and has the option for some fantastic low drag 140-142gr bullets that are simply remarkable and unprecedented in the small caliber world.
To be totally fair I have used the 243 for some years as a youth, and while it always left me wanting more I never needed it. It always performed the task at hand very well so don't let my ballistic ramblings prevent you from enjoying such a fun little cartridge.

stubbicatt
February 10, 2013, 08:21 AM
I am a recent convert to the 243, and as a hand loader, it is my observation that it can be pressed into service in many roles.

With the lighter 55 grain VMax bullets it is a scorching hot round for prairie dogs, with published velocities in excess of 4,000 fps; and with the 100 grain bonded type bullets is useful on any North American big game. I have been reading that with fast twist barrels it will do well in long range competitions with the 107 grain VLD type rounds.

I do so enjoy shooting mine, so much in fact I am eyeballing another rifle in the same chambering, as it will have a fresh throat and probably shoot pretty darned good too. I figured it would make a great AI barrel.

Sorry if I got too far off your question, OP, but these are the reasons I would recommend the 243 for your son. That and recoil is not so bad either, even with heavier bullets.

David Clark
February 10, 2013, 09:27 AM
I would buy a new Ruger American in 243 and never look back. What a great rifle for the money!!1
Dave

jim243
February 10, 2013, 10:11 AM
Easy on the shoulder as I get older, and easy on my daughters as well

For a 11 yr old first time shooter, I would REALLY recommend a 22 LR and not a center fire round. For the 5' 11", 175 lb any of those recommended would do.

I might like one of these cheap beater rifles as well in a smaller caliber for deer/turkes/coyotes.

The 243 will most certianly take any of these. What has NOT been said is that the barrel life of the 243 is short compared to the others (750-1,500 rounds then accuracy falls off). It is a HOT round (soft recoil but fast light bullet 107 grains max) if you are shooting 55 grain bullets at 4,000 fps the barrel will not last that long. I would recommend 95 grain bullets to extend the barrel life and take whatever you want to hunt.

If the rifle is for you and sometimes for the kids I would suggest you get a 308.

Just my view on it.
Jim

243 is my favorite, but I only use it for hunting, for target shooting I use a 223/5.56.

NELSONs02
February 10, 2013, 10:13 AM
.260 Remington
+1

Most efficient use of the 308 case.

Kachok
February 10, 2013, 05:19 PM
For the 08 case I rank them in the following order.
1 260 takes first hands down, the best ballistics/trajectory, light recoil, and being the ideal level of energy/mass/momentum for normal sized hunting game (deer, pronghorn, hogs...etc) within realistic hunting ranges. It also serves as a varmint rifle with it's 87-100gr bullets at 3500 and 3300fps respectively, it also happens to be amongst the best long range shooting cartridges with it's ultra high BC 140 grainers and last but not least those same heavy 140grain bullets are also proven effective (though smaller then ideal) on elk-moose class game because of their very high BC and SD.
2 308 it takes over where the 260 left off being better suited to CXP3 class game with it's heavier bullets. Those slower heavier bullets can also give you a healthy margin of overkill on deer without making a bunch of gunshot meat due to their modest velocity. Also a fine choice for those who do ALOT of shooting seeing as a 308 is nothing close to overbore the barrels can last north of 10,000 rounds.
3 7mm-08 the go between of the 260 and 308, it is a little stout for deer and a little light for the bigger stuff but it does fill that mid range quite well, the ONLY reason I ranked the 7mm-08 over the 243 is because I do more deer/hog hunting then varmint, if I was as passionate about hunting yotes and bobcats as I am about deer and hogs, the 243 would be in the #2 spot.
4. 243 a solid choice for a dual purpose cartridge, it is very very good at utilizing lighter bullets at blistering high speeds, even better then the hot 22 cal IMHO, and can use heftier 85-100gr bullets for larger game if needed. With it's 85-90gr bullets it is probably the second best CXP1/CXP2 combo rifle in the world, just a small step behind the 100gr 25-06.
5 338 Fed if you want a 308 case short action rifle to handle the higher end of the CXP3 class game with an authority this is your bullet, 7mm Rem mag killing energy using about 40% less powder, this is a highly efficient killing machine inside 300 yds. As good as that is though it does not top my chart, because it is limited in it's scope, this is a big bullet for big game whereas the others are more versatile by nature. For those who are a little recoil shy and want to cleanly take a brown bear this cartridge loaded with 210gr Partitions is quickly becoming the standard for light kicking large game bullets.
6 358 Win, another oversized 308, much like the 338 this gives remarkable killing power in a very small package, but this suffers from the 338s shortcomings only more so, by time you step down in bullet weight to get the speed/trajectory you want you loose your downrange energy with a quickness, still makes for superb big game brush gun though. 30-30 speeds but with 100gr more lead!

bantam9
February 10, 2013, 06:16 PM
I didn't think I'd get this many responses. I appreciate everyones insight. I love this website. All you guys really are making me think.
First I do handload. I downloaded some .308 for my oldest when his time came. Just the look and weight of my tang saftey older ruger made him uncomfortable and afraid to shoot it. Two years after this he shoots my '06 standard loads.
My daughter I believe is another story. I believe I'll have to go lite, most likely .243, and with a third child, not of age yet, the thoughts of breaking both these two in on something low recoil is the overiding issue. If either graduate from 243, I can move them up to reduced loads in 308.
I thought 243 at first because it was more of a standard cartridge, easily found in stores, {or for reloading gear}, in reloading retail outlets, and carries more of a punch them my handloaded 225 winchester with 70 gr speer psp's. Plus, as a Ruger guy, I could try the new American, which is a cheap pick up. On the back end of all this is, in this area of video gaming kds, I'm not really sure any of my kids love to hunt like I do. If shooting/hunting doesn't stick with them, at least I'll have something which saves my shoulder as I get older.

4season
February 10, 2013, 07:14 PM
First I do handload.
Well that settles it then, .260 Remington.
Best all around use of the .308 case, good bullet selection and it is very little recoil compared to many other "deer cartridges." I would not recommend a 260 or a 7-08 to someone who doesn't load for the simple fact that if you find it in stock at your local store, it won't be the right bullet for the hunting you want to do. Much easier to find ammo for .243 or .308 in the store that will do what you want. My favorite deer load is a 140g SST over RL-19. I can shoot a 4 inch group at 300 yards with that combo in my Ruger M77 compact.

savanahsdad
February 10, 2013, 07:53 PM
awwhh,, a handloader and a Ruger guy , Fur-Fish-Game did a real world test with the 260 rem, 7mm-08 and the 308win all with (150gr ?) sierra bullets and all in RUGERS , your splitting hairs out to 300 yards , but the 260 and 7mm-08 had less drop and more energy than the 308at 300 yards ,
there was/is a thred on here "All-around cartridge for North American game ?" where this was covered (not the 243 so much)
as for the 260 vs the 7mm-08, there is no real up side to it , I ran both through my Sierra V Infinity program ,my lee software, and my Nikon Spot On software , and the Fur-Fish-Game "real world test" shows them neck and neck at 600yards ! Note: this is with the same weight and bullets type,

as for your pick of the 243, great round, I have useed them, even droped 3 deer in the same day with one (not mine) and a 243 is on my short list to get , right now I go from 22mag too 25WSSM , my pick for a starter gun is still a 7mm-08 , but here in WI there are a ton of them and lot of ammo to pick from , alsol I handload for 7mmWSM and 7mm-08,

you can get that Fur-Fish-Game (Nov,2010 ) on there web site for $4.00

Kachok
February 10, 2013, 08:12 PM
^ I was unaware Serria made a 150gr 6.5mm, if they did I am pretty sure I would know about it being a diehard Serria fan and the Grand Wizard of the 6.5mm cult (memberships available :D )
There are a few European manufactures that make 150ish grain 6.5s but not Serria, the heaviest they make is a 142gr SMK, Horndy has a 160gr RN but that one is awful light constructed and has piss poor ballistics so it does not get much love in the cult.

savanahsdad
February 10, 2013, 09:29 PM
^ I was unaware Serria made a 150gr 6.5mm, if they did I am pretty sure I would know about it being a diehard Serria fan and the Grand Wizard of the 6.5mm cult (memberships available :D )
There are a few European manufactures that make 150ish grain 6.5s but not Serria, the heaviest they make is a 142gr SMK, Horndy has a 160gr RN but that one is awful light constructed and has piss poor ballistics so it does not get much love in the cult.
nice catch. and you think I could find that magazine to see if it was there typeo or mine :confused: I know when I first posted that info on the other thred I had said 140gr, but after I got home I "thought" I check and it was 150gr , maybe I fliped the numbers on the other thred , I can't find the mag, right now , so I just copyed the info I had posted on the other thred :cuss:
as for the software , I think I typed in 120gr or 140gr , , that was last year when I was shoping for a new round to play with , funny I didn't go with any of them :eek: I got a 25wssm

WaywardSon
February 11, 2013, 04:10 AM
I think I was leaning 243 at the start of all this. Low recoil being the most important to me at the moment. Never had one, never shot one, but always heard good things about them.
I think you are leaning in the right direction. Many of the calibers mentioned are excellent choices...however I think that when you throw an 11 yr. old girl in the equation it narrows things down considerably. Low recoil in a lightweight package is what you are looking for IMO. The .243 shines using that criteria...and is perfectly capable of taking anything in your neck of the woods.

I have a Remington Model 7 in .243 and the older I get the more I like it. Heck of a lot easier to pack around than my 1895 Marlin:-)

Kachok
February 11, 2013, 04:21 AM
Put a 150gr 308 and a 140gr 260 side by side with full power loads for both and the 308 starts out faster, but it does not take very long at all for the 260 to catch back up, while giving better resistance to wind deflection. Good 150gr 30 cals run in the .430 BC range while a good 140gr 6.5 is easily in the .500, even cheap SSTs run a .520 and the Berger VLD is a staggering .614!! That is a night and day difference to say the least, and technicly speaking out of a 260 or 6.5x55 that bullet retains ethical deer killing energy/speed (1000ft/lbs and 1800fps) out past 700 yards, not bad for a sissy kicker.
My friend at Quints (our local gun store) SWEARS the 25 WSSM is the greatest deer cartridge of all time, me and him have had some very interesting debates seeing as he is a true gun nut like myself. He makes alot of valid points that is a hella potent little cartridge 95% of a 25-06 in an action two sizes smaller and burning no more powder then a 243 now if only I could get 6.5mm external ballistics out of that and it would be perfect :D

Kachok
February 11, 2013, 04:38 AM
That would be a really interesting wildcat, necking up a WSSM case to 6.5mm, take what we know of cartridges in which both the .257 and .264 are used and we see that in general the extra cross section of the 6.5mm is good for about an extra 100fps roughly with 120gr bullet (sadly the 25-06 does not have 140s to compare) the 25 WSSM can reach just over 3,000fps with 120s in safe published loads, if a 264 WSSM could hit 3100 that would be right up there if not a few fps over the best 6.5x55 and 260 loads, only possible downside I see is that the short WSSM case might not fare too well with the longer 140 and 142gr bullets, it might be limited to 120-130gr, which work perfectly fine for hunting and surpass the BC of the 25 cals in the same weight (don't ask me to explain that one.)

kludge
February 11, 2013, 11:24 AM
Of the two, 7mm-08 -- More potenetial to grow with the shooter/hunter, and there's not a better deer cartridge, IMO, for whitetail or mule deer.

Remember, if you handload, there are always H4895 youth loads available... these will be good for deer out to 200 yards. Then when they're all grown up it's a 400 yard deer cartridge handloaded with 139/140gr bullets. And you can step up to heavier bullets if needed for larger game.

The .243 will never be more than a 250 yard deer rifle, IMO.

The .260 Rem, factory chambered might not be a able to handle bullets over 140 grains like the 7mm-08 and 6.5x55 can.

Between the .260 and the 6.5 Creedmore, flip a coin.

If ammo and brass were more in supply, I'd say look at the .25 WSSM.

bantam9
February 11, 2013, 12:33 PM
wish i had the cash to pick up a couple of the reccomendations made by you guys.

220slow
February 11, 2013, 12:47 PM
I went with the 260. You can load a 100 gr Partition faster than a 100 gr 243 along with light recoil. hen kids get older or you have larger game there are more options

Bio-Chem
February 11, 2013, 12:56 PM
I wonder what would be the better way to go? necking down the .270 WSM to 6.5mm, or necking up the 25WSSM?

savanahsdad
February 11, 2013, 02:39 PM
I wonder what would be the better way to go? necking down the .270 WSM to 6.5mm, or necking up the 25WSSM?
the WSM , the 25 wssm is not realy a magnum , as is only = to the 257Roberts and about 100fps less than the 25/06, , the 223wssm and the 243wssm on the other hand beat out all the other 223's and 243's as far as I know, So I would call them true mag's,

Bantam9: I wish I had the cash for some of the things posted too ! cash was better last year and guns and ammo were less .

kludge: in post #54 you said you would look at a 25WSSM , no!!!!! for God's sakes, NO .. I need all the brass I can find !!!! LOL,,

kludge
February 11, 2013, 03:29 PM
The .25 WSSM smokes the Bob! (in standard form) My dream 3-gun battery for NA is a .22LR, .25 WSSM, and a .338-06.

Quick .25 caliber comparison chart
cartridge Bullet Weight Muzzle Velocity (ft/sec) Muzzle Energy (ft·lbf)
.250-3000 Savage [9] 100 2864 1822
.257 Roberts [1] 100 2898 1865
.257 Roberts (+P) [7] 100 3048 2063
.257 Roberts Ackley Improved [10] 100 3279* 2388*
.25 WSSM [11] 100 3264 2366
.25-06 Remington [12] 100 3283 2394
.257 Weatherby Magnum [13] 100 3512* 2839*

Necking up the .25 WSSM will be equivalent case capacity to the .260 Rem. No real reason to do it when you've got really good brass for the 6.5 Creedmore coming from Hornady and .260 brass from Norma.

Necking down the .270 WSM to 6.5mm will be a barrel burner extraordinaire, your going to have ~10-12 more grains capacity than the 6.5-.284 and right close to a .264 Win Mag. You'd be lucky to get 1000 rounds down the barrel. :D

savanahsdad
February 11, 2013, 04:21 PM
The .25 WSSM smokes the Bob! (in standard form) My dream 3-gun battery for NA is a .22LR, .25 WSSM, and a .338-06.

Quick .25 caliber comparison chart
cartridge Bullet Weight Muzzle Velocity (ft/sec) Muzzle Energy (ft·lbf)
.250-3000 Savage [9] 100 2864 1822
.257 Roberts [1] 100 2898 1865
.257 Roberts (+P) [7] 100 3048 2063
.257 Roberts Ackley Improved [10] 100 3279* 2388*
.25 WSSM [11] 100 3264 2366
.25-06 Remington [12] 100 3283 2394
.257 Weatherby Magnum [13] 100 3512* 2839*

Necking up the .25 WSSM will be equivalent case capacity to the .260 Rem. No real reason to do it when you've got really good brass for the 6.5 Creedmore coming from Norma.

Necking down the .270 WSM to 6.5mm will be a barrel burner extraordinaire, your going to have ~10-12 more grains capacity than the 6.5-.284 and right close to a .264 Win Mag. You'd be lucky to get 1000 rounds down the barrel. :D
quick web search , found factory loads,
25WSSM: win 120gr =2970fps
257Roberts : Horady 117gr =2945
25WSSM : win 110gr =3100
keep in mind there are a lot more factory loads out there for the 257Roberts and the 257Roberts +P some slower and some faster , on avg, I'd say there = or at least closer to it than the 25/06 , now .. us handloaders know we can get more out of are 25WSSM's It would be nice if Winchester was not the only one with factory 25WSSM I'd like to see what a 25WSSM Hornday Superformance would do !

back to the OP. have you thought about a 6mmBR ? A Savage mod 12 would look real nice next to your Rugers :)

T.R.
February 11, 2013, 06:19 PM
A well placed double lung strike with .243 equals instant death on deer. I've been slaying animals with my .243 since 1969.

7mm-08 is a very good cartridge. My sister-in-law hunts with a so chambered BLR in Wyoming each Fall. She has toppled elk with her Browning levergun.

.243 has its limits and for me that is a big mountain muley weighing close to 300 lbs. This animal doesn't have a chance against the hard hitting, long range 243. But animals heavier than 300 lbs should be hunted with a larger caliber, in my opinion. Anyone is allowed to disagree with me (politely).

TR

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c146/rushmoreman/bigmuleyintimber.jpg

Kachok
February 12, 2013, 07:34 AM
The 25 WSSM uses about the same amount of powder as the 257 Bob To give you an idea of the difference let's consult Nosler #6, 257 Robers tops out with a 120gr bullet at 2810fps with 47.5gr of IMR7828, the 25 WSSM tops out at 3024fps with 48gr of Hunter, and the 25-06 reaches it's published limit at 3175fps with a whopping 57.5gr of Retumbo, all tested in 24" barrels. What has my attention is the fact that the WSSM reaches near 25-06 figures while using 257 sized powder charges. Give it a little more cross section (aka bullet frontal area) to push against and a 6.5WSSM would be a winner.
The 6.5 WSM (the larger case) wildcat has been done several times before, exceeded the 264 Win Mag and 6.5 Rem Mag by about 80-100fps which is just scary fast, too fast for hunting bullets unless you are shooting them a long ways out.

kludge
February 12, 2013, 10:54 AM
quick web search , found factory loads,
25WSSM: win 120gr =2970fps
257Roberts : Horady 117gr =2945
25WSSM : win 110gr =3100


That Hornady load is +P, but you probably knew that, and just like the .25 WSSM, loaded to modern pressure is nipping at the heels of the .25-06 with less powder.

Kachok,
The 6.5WSSM has been done and 140's can run ~3000+fps don't know barrel length (probably long range 28"-30" barrels) or how long the barrel would last... presuambly longer than the 6.5 WSM. :) Probably in the same category as the 6.5-.284/6.5-06 but with a bit less powder capacity.

ETA: Just found this... it's a really fantastic idea, using off the shelf .25 WSSM dies, and turning the necks to fit 6.5mm bullets... the loaded neck diameter is 0.299" subtract 0.264" and divide by two and you still have 0.0175" neck thickness (WSSM necks are really thick, I neck up .25 WSSM brass to .35 caliber for my wildcat and I still have to turn the necks).

You could also use a standard .25 WSSM reamer with a removable pilot, and then throat it however you wanted. Hmmm... this has got me thinking...

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=2647427.0

Kachok
February 12, 2013, 01:41 PM
140s at3000+fps out of a wssm case? That would really impress me even out of a 30" tube, know a few people who shoot long barrel modern action 6.5x55 which BTW can use up to about 50gr of powder, they are maxing out at about 2950fps with compressed loads of RL22 and H1000 with the 140s. 3000fps is right in there with the long barreled 6.5-284 and even what the 264 Win Mag can do in hunting length barrels burning 60 something grains of powder! That would be impressive indeed.
Edit for those of you who might be a little confused right now. 3000fps with a .550-.614BC bullet is nothing like 3000fps with a 130gr 270 or 100gr 243 with bullets in the .350-.430BC range when you are talking about shooting long range the external ballistics of the 6.5mms really shine and even the mid ranged ones can hang right in there with the likes of the 300 Win Mag at 1,000yds.

TexasPatriot.308
February 12, 2013, 01:45 PM
the 7mm-08 leaves the .243 in the safe...for light recoil, handload or go to managed recoil loads. the 7mm-08 is basically the same as the 7x57 and it has proven itself for a hundred years.

savanahsdad
February 12, 2013, 09:13 PM
the 7mm-08 leaves the .243 in the safe...for light recoil, handload or go to managed recoil loads. the 7mm-08 is basically the same as the 7x57 and it has proven itself for a hundred years.
thats what I said , before we found out the OP was a hand loader, now I'm with a few others on here and saying go for the middle road, , and remember this is for his 11 year old, , but she wont be 11 forever , so I would laen to one of the 257's or a 264(6.5mm) then have fun playing with it when she out grows it , and as of last year there were no off the shelf WSSM's in bolt guns:mad:.. you could have one built , but the OP said "I wish I had the cash for some of the things that you guys listed" but we got him thinking anyway:)

kludge: hornady was +P ?? I don't know , as I said "QUICK WEB SEARCH" I didn't bookmark it , it was Superformance ? maybe +p is Superformance all +P ? the point was ,when putting one round next to another we should always use factory ammo , we (yes me too) have to remember us handloaders are not the majoirty, there more shooters out there than handloaders, I too was saying the 25WSSM was = to the 25/06 when I got mine , and was told no it's closer to the 257Roberts , and I said not if you handload for it , he then said if you hot- rod a Nova to beat a Corvette,dose that mean all Nova's will beat a Vett.:rolleyes: so in our world the 25WSSM will smoke the Rob, but in the world where the ammo comes of a shelf there the same, the 257 Roberts may even have an up side with all there is to pick from

To the OP would you be into a wildcat ? just think, your little girl could brag she got her first deer with , 264Gibs or a 257short mag !!
as for a 264WSM, I found it's Twin ! it's a 6.5 Crister Expess :what: it is a 300H&H necked down to a .264 WOW clocking in at 3910fps with a 87gr, and at 3810fps with a 120gr :eek: and that is data from 1962! and yes I'm thinking too......... hummm lets see a mod 12 , in 260, a reamer , a set of bushing dies , hummmm going to need a loan for this ;)

savanahsdad
February 12, 2013, 09:22 PM
reply to post 64, opps Edit

6.5 Crister Express , 140gr 65gr's of H-570 clocks at 2910fps

kludge
February 13, 2013, 01:01 AM
http://www.hornady.com/store/257-Roberts-117-gr-SST-Superformance/

Kachok, here's a link of the people doing 3kfps with 139/140gr 6.5WSSM

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=1577667.0

kludge
February 13, 2013, 02:06 AM
Edit for those of you who might be a little confused right now. 3000fps with a .550-.614BC bullet is nothing like 3000fps with a 130gr 270 or 100gr 243 with bullets in the .350-.430BC range when you are talking about shooting long range the external ballistics of the 6.5mms really shine and even the mid ranged ones can hang right in there with the likes of the 300 Win Mag at 1,000yds.

Yes the 6.5's are pretty amazing, low recoil and flat shooting.

I just ran a few numbers for fun... for a match bullet I picked a 140gr and 0.58 for the BC and 3000fps MV to run through the ballistic calculator.

At 1000 yards the bullet is still going 1600fps. That's about 400-500 fps faster than a 168gr .308 Win.

For a hunting rifle, I picked the 140gr Nosler Ballistic Tip and a 22" barrel (assume these guys are not making this up and 3000fps came from a 30" barrel and subtract 25fps/in and you get 2800fps). The +/-3" Max point blank range is 280 yards. Nosler says their bullets are good down to 1800fps and it is commonly stated that 1000 fpe is a good energy number for whitetail hunting... those two things happen simultaneously with this bullet... at 620 yards. At a more reasonable absolute max hunting distance of 400 yards there's >2100fps and 1400fpe. Also at 400 yards this just passed by a 140gr BT 7mm-08 for retained velocity and energy.

But then 2800 fps from a 22" barrel is just about exactly what you get from a .260 Remington and a good hot handload. 2700fps is do-able with several powders.

:( Bummer I was hoping maybe for a good reason to look at doing another .25 WSSM wildcat. But who knows, all this is just looking at load manuals. It makes sense though, the case capacity is the same.

Kachok
February 13, 2013, 04:17 AM
You know I have nerve used the 140gr Ballistic Tip, there did not exist when I started loading 6.5mm, in fact I think they are pretty recent, Nosler #6 does not even mention them. I have used the 120gr to devastating effect at just over 3050fps, the 6.5x55 feels like a 270 lite with that load. Drops everything as fast as gravity will carry it to the ground. Of course no 243, 6.5mm or 7mm-08 hits like my 30-06 with SGKs, my brother got one yesterday with it and it blew a 10" chunk out of the upper shoulder/neck/back, my size 9 1/2 shoe would fit the in the exit! I won't use that combo on deer myself, I enjoy actually having some deer left to eat, but if you never want to track anything EVER that is tough to beat, I have seen a .50 BMG 750gr A-Max do less damage. That load is just for him, when I tag my reloads I don't bother listing all the specs I know them by heart, I just call them "Bryan Specials" :D

kludge
February 13, 2013, 10:31 AM
Yes, it's a brand new bullet. They also have a new 200gr Accubond in .35 cal that will work in my wildcat... its just the price that keeps me away - I can buy Hornadys and Sierras for about half as much.

The .260 or 6.5x55, even with the 120gr is still a 400 yard deer cartridge, with not much more recoil than a .243.

moonzapa
February 13, 2013, 02:24 PM
With a youngster that may be inclined to flinch with recoil, I would select a .243 winchester. The 7mm-08 is an excellent deer load but the .243 will kill any deer that comes along with good bullet placement. The .243 can fill deer hunting and varmint hunting roles, too, which is a big plus for me. Good to hear that you have a youngster interested in the shooting sports.

bantam9
February 13, 2013, 05:04 PM
Don't want to go the wildcat route at the moment. My 225win is as close to a wildcat as I want to get, especially with prices and availability going on now with supplies.
I'm thinking 243, if she gets into it, she can move up to a 308 reduced load. Leaves the 243 open for my youngest who is few years behind my daughter.
243 should have all kinds of supplies to be had even in these times, and once things settle down even more so.

savanahsdad
February 13, 2013, 05:18 PM
so far the score is 14 for the 243, and 9 for the 7mm-08 two for eather ? and a whole bunch for 260's 6.5's, 257, and a 30/06 ??!!?? OK..... then.
I see you have another little one comeing up, humm.. I change my vote to 243, so that 15- 243's and 8- 7mm-08's

jogar80
February 13, 2013, 05:20 PM
.243

watergun
February 13, 2013, 05:45 PM
I have a friend (now deceased) who hunted moose in Alaska. He carried a .300 Weatherby. The locals laughed at him. He said 95% of them carried .243's for their subsistance hunting. They said you put one through the lungs and wait about 30 minutes until he lay down and then skin him out. The secret is the bullet. For large animals use nothing but premium bullets. I used the .243 for years out west and killed everything from mule deer to elk. Of course you have to pick your shots. Shot placement is everything.

Bio-Chem
February 13, 2013, 05:51 PM
im not sure the size of font is a convincing argument this time around. but good effort

jogar80
February 13, 2013, 06:31 PM
im not sure the size of font is a convincing argument this time around. but good effort
I agree... but I like to be repetetive.... and BOLD... LOL

Kachok
February 13, 2013, 06:47 PM
I have a friend (now deceased) who hunted moose in Alaska. He carried a .300 Weatherby. The locals laughed at him. He said 95% of them carried .243's for their subsistance hunting. They said you put one through the lungs and wait about 30 minutes until he lay down and then skin him out. The secret is the bullet. For large animals use nothing but premium bullets. I used the .243 for years out west and killed everything from mule deer to elk. Of course you have to pick your shots. Shot placement is everything.
243 is to Alaska what the 6.5x55 is to Northern Europe, the little sissy kicker that always could do the job with a little hunting savvy and marksmanship skill :) That said in this part of the woods it is dang near impossible to track anything through this crazy thick underbrush so I prefer something that will drop them where they stand 90+% of the time and make a substantial enough exit as to make for very short blood trails a blind man could follow for the occasional fluke. We simply do not have the luxury of picking them up half an hour later where ever they laid down around here.

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