The .30 Mauser and 7.62x25 are not the same cartridge, correct?


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Snowdog
March 10, 2004, 12:16 AM
Could someone please point me to a source that specifically points out the differences between the .30 Mauser and the 7.62x25 ?

A friend looking through his 2003 Shooter's Bible pointed out an article that indicated the 7.62x25 was also known as (not mistaken for) the .30 Mauser. I was always under the impression they were similar in dimensions but not the same cartridge.
After pointing out the mistake by the author, my buddy just looked at me as if I were speaking in latin.

Thanks in advance.

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mete
March 10, 2004, 12:41 AM
The 7.62 Tokarev or 7.62x25 and the 7.63 Mauser and the 30 Borchardt are very close in dimensions . They all derive from the Borchardt though the Borchardt is loaded to lower pressures. According to the cartridges of the World all the the dimensions are within .001-.002" , the mauser being a little bigger,and in some guns they are interchangeble. Cartridge and chamber dimensions are always given as a range and I don't have the original specs.

Wildalaska
March 10, 2004, 12:47 AM
Dimensionally they are similar. In the 20s and thirties they were the same. Once the round became a subgun round, the 7.62x25 began to be loaded hotter.

Nowadays all commercial 7.62x25 is loaded hotter. Military stuff is hit and miss. You can shoot it in a Broomie but it may accelerate wear. Some 7.62x25 will even blow a Broomie. OTOH, 30 Mauser is loaded specifcally for Broomies. Unfortunately, the only way to get good new stuff is Fiocchi...stock up now.


WildbroomieboyAlaska

Mike Irwin
March 10, 2004, 01:01 AM
Cartridges of the World has dimensional information.

It's pretty much accepted that the Tokarev round came about due to sloppy Soviet manufacturing processes.

After WW I, when both Germany and the Soviet Union were international parriahs, they did some trading back and forth, and one of the things that the Soviets took was several thousand C96 Mausers and a bunch of ammo.

When the German ammo ran dry they tooled up to make it themselves.

Most people say that the Tokarev round and the Mauser round will interchange in most guns.

BluesBear
March 10, 2004, 09:04 AM
I liken the 7.63 Mauser and the 7.62 Tokarev to the .38 ACP and the .38 Super.

I know of some old timers who would fire .38 Super in their Colt 1902.
It was a good thing they didn't fire much of it.

Tokarev ammo certainly has more "snap" than the Mauser ammo.


Just my tuppence.

Route 66
March 11, 2004, 08:07 AM
So would you say that it's OK to use the .30 Mauser round in a pistol chambered for the 7.62 Tokarev but not vice versa?

Snowdog
March 11, 2004, 10:35 AM
Thanks for the information, folks.
But just to avoid any confusion...

To say "The 7.62x25 (AKA .30 Mauser)..." is indeed wrong, correct?

BigG
March 11, 2004, 10:58 AM
To say "The 7.62x25 (AKA .30 Mauser)..." is indeed wrong, correct? Not in my opinion. The 7.62 X 25 IS the 30 Mauser. Just different nomenclatures. What everybody said about higher pressure loadings is correct, but in exterior dimensions they are the same thing.

38 ACP and 38 Super are dimensionally alike also, except in the loadings.

Every US cartridge has a metric nomenclature also. If you try to buy 30/06 in a Euro store, ask for 7.62x63. 30/30 - I forget, but it was chambered in a lot of drillings, as was 22 Savage High Power.

Mike Irwin
March 11, 2004, 11:05 AM
IIRC, Cartridges of the World shows that there ARE standardized dimensional differences between the 7.62 Tokarev and the 7.63 Mauser round.

Snowdog
March 11, 2004, 11:27 AM
I'm not the best at phrasing my questions, so I'll give an example.

You're at a gun show looking at a CZ-52 for a fair price and you decide to buy. When the owner notices your interest, he tells you "that there gun isn’t chambered for the 9x19, it's still in .30 Mauser". You tell him you believe it's actually the 7.62x25 it's chambered in. He returns by saying the .30 Mauser is the same cartridge as the 7.62x25.

In light of different operating pressures and possible slight dimensional differences, should the .30 Mauser and 7.62x25 be considered the same cartridge or different cartridges?

Perhaps I should really be asking myself why I allowed myself to get worked up over something I read in the Shooters Bible. :o

BigG
March 11, 2004, 12:05 PM
Snowdog: Since you KNOW the difference (higher pressure in the 7.62x25 marked ammo) you can educate your fellow shooters if necessary. It is NOT incorrect to say the Russians copied the 30 Mauser and it has since been dubbed the 7.62x25. At the time the 7.63/30 Mauser was created there was no standardized metric nomenclature like 00x00. For that matter you could say that 30 Mauser was a hotted up 30 Borchardt as it is the same cartridge dimensionally also.

The gun/ammo makers realized this was a problem and stopped converting to higher pressure loadings after the 38 ACP/SUPER 38. The 357 was like a hot loaded 38 SPECIAL but 1/10" longer to try to stop us neanderthals from stuffing them in their old pistols. Same with 44 MAGNUM, hot 44 Special load but with 1/10" longer case.

As to dimensional differences, Mike Irwin, I can show you factory ammo in calibers like 9mm Luger that is all sorts of dimensionally different in the cases. As long as it chambers, headspaces properly and goes off without the pistol coming apart, it IS 9mm LUGER whether you or COTW say it is or not.

Mike Irwin
March 11, 2004, 12:52 PM
I guess that's why, then, Big G, that every ammo company and the US military considerds the 7.62 and 7.63 cartridges to be DIFFERENT cartridges...

Hey, did you know that you can now shoot .35 Remington in a .308?

Sure, there are some dimensional differences, but it chambers and headspaces, so therefore they MUST be the same cartridge, right? :scrutiny:

clubsoda22
March 11, 2004, 12:55 PM
There's really 3 loadings. The mauser load is lower pressure. The tokarev load is higher pressure. Every so often you'll come across a czech load, which i don't recommend shooting out of your broomie or tokarev. These loads are more than "on the warm side." They are loaded to very high pressures and should only be shot out of a CZ52. I've read of more than one person buying Czech surplus ammo for their tokarev and turning their handgun into a hand grenade.

BigG
March 11, 2004, 01:04 PM
every ammo company and the US military considerds the 7.62 and 7.63 cartridges to be DIFFERENT cartridges... Oooh. Just what ammo or firearms manufacturing company in the USA produces such ammo or produces firearms that chamber it? :scrutiny: BTW, you need a spilchecher. :neener:

Mike Irwin
March 11, 2004, 09:57 PM
Crap, I hate it when I'm wrong...

I was looking at the wrong stinking cartridge for dimensions...

Sigh.

And no, I don't need a spellchecker. When you type 102 words a minute, you're bound to make an error every once in awhile.

only1asterisk
March 12, 2004, 01:50 AM
According to some sources there can be enough differences in chambers to cause some trouble in individual guns. This is in addition to the pressure differential(s). Specifically I think there were problems when new 7.63 brass was used to load Czech spec 7.62 in cz52's. I'll see if I can find something to back that up.


Mike, I type at 2 words a minute and I still need a spell checker!

David

alwims
March 12, 2004, 09:44 AM
Yall givin me a headacke. will a 30-06 round work in my Ruger MkII:neener:

Mike Irwin
March 12, 2004, 12:03 PM
"will a 30-06 round work in my Ruger MkII"

Only if it's chambered for 7.623 Mausarev, a little known variation made by welding a Tokarev and Mauser together in a seemingly random fashion...

Matt Dillon
March 12, 2004, 01:22 PM
Folks, I recently purchased a couple of hundred pieces of 7.62x25 brass, and in it receivecd ~20 pieces of .30 mauser brass. Is it OK to load for my CZ 52? I ran it through the 7.62X26 decapping die, and although it was just a smidgeon harder to run through than the 7.62x25, I figure that it should work. Anyone have any thoughts on this? Thanks!

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