How the LAPD Lost my Trust


PDA






Dean Weingarten
February 9, 2013, 09:21 PM
I am a certified firearms instructor who has taught CCW classes in Arizona since the beginning of the CCW program there in 1994. As we are on the border with California, I watch the developments there with some interest. Unfortunately, nearly everything that I have read and heard about the LAPD and guns has lead me to distrust them.

I had numerous students who had dealings with the LAPD. I started hearing stories about how guns were seized, even if there were no crime involved. If an officer came across a gun, it was seized, and it would not be returned until the LAPD received a court order demanding that it be returned. As hiring a lawyer to obtain a court order could easily cost thousands of dollars, very few people even tried, as the cost was far more than the firearms were worth. This is legalized theft.

The practice has finally been challenged in court, and the Ninth Circuit has ruled that the under the fourth amendment, LAPD cannot simply steal firearms that are lawfully owned. The government is appealing the decision in Messerschmidt v. Millender.

I have also heard of California police who stop someone that has a firearm in their vehicle, who may have violated one of the many arcane firearms laws of the State. If the officer is being charitable, he may allow the individual to simply give the gun to him, rather than face felony charges.

The crowning moment came for me when I was describing the practice to a class of students, and one of them said "My brother is an LAPD police officer, and he has an amazing collection of firearms. Citizens just gave them to him to dispose of."

This is the stuff of third world dictatorships.

The other practice that made me distrust the LAPD has been their scofflaw attitude toward court orders to administer the California CCW program as the law requires. They have failed to do this for 17 years, even though ordered to do so by the court. The Court order was originally obtained by a legal action won by the Second Amendment Foundation. In the intervening years two more amended judgements of declaratory relief were signed. A current appeal to enforce the court order is in the works from the National Rifle Association and the California Rifle and Pistol Association.

When the LAPD engages in systematic legalized theft, and refuses to follow court orders to uphold the law, when they routinely fail to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States, even though they have taken an oath to do so, they have lost my trust.

Dean Weingarten

Link to NRA update: Messerschmidt v. Millender

Link to NRA update, CCW process enforcement appeal

http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2013/02/how-lapd-lost-my-trust.html

If you enjoyed reading about "How the LAPD Lost my Trust" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
mmitch
February 9, 2013, 09:43 PM
The police follow the examples for theft that have proven successful for that (and many other) state's "public servants."

Mike

Deltaboy
February 9, 2013, 09:54 PM
Shameful behavior. :banghead::banghead::fire:

Triangle 66
February 9, 2013, 11:47 PM
How about when they attempt to murder two Hispanic women who are not a 270 lb bald 33 Y/O black male??

Then 25 minutes later shoot up another truck?

Violating peoples Constitutional Right to LIVE is sure a good reason to not trust them!

They can't even correctly a truck before they shoot it up.

EBK
February 10, 2013, 12:04 AM
Par for the course.

Onward Allusion
February 10, 2013, 12:22 AM
This stuff can be said of a lot of agencies; not just the LAPD. It is a symptom of a municipalities' or State's political culture.

BHP FAN
February 10, 2013, 12:29 AM
When I worked security for a Casino, I worked with an ex-Sacremento P.D Officer, who told me that any knife that anyone could open one handed was a switchblade and that he used to ''confiscate'' them routinely. I told him I could open my Buck knife one handed, and he answered that he would have confiscated it. I'm generally pretty pro-law enforcement, but that just left me with my mind blown.

steveo452
February 10, 2013, 12:53 AM
My brother retired with 25 years in blue, The last seven of It as Chief. He has a house full of nice firearms. It's amazing how many people want to dispose of there firearms. He actually told me that same thing when I ask him about a nice rifle he had.

HankB
February 10, 2013, 01:03 AM
The crowning moment came for me when I was describing the practice to a class of students, and one of them said "My brother is an LAPD police officer, and he has an amazing collection of firearms. Citizens just gave them to him to dispose of."
My brother retired with 25 years in blue, The last seven of It as Chief. He has a house full of nice firearms. It's amazing how many people want to dispose of there firearms. He actually told me that same thing when I ask him about a nice rifle he had.
Wouldn't it be a shame if citizens also gave these fine upstanding officers some ammo to dispose of . . . ammo which included at least one handloaded round which had a case full of Bullseye?

splithoof
February 10, 2013, 01:10 AM
Every citizen a suspect.
Total rudidity and brash arrogance. Surly, with an authoritative disdain. Too bad the good ones get lumped in with the bad; Just hope you don't have contact while transporting your legally (for the moment) owned firearms.

bri
February 10, 2013, 01:14 AM
Protect and serve...

2ifbyC
February 10, 2013, 01:31 AM
Power begets more power. Iíve seen it happen to many people with whom I was once friends. When police believe that they are above the law or are granted impunity for gross negligence, bad things will happen. I believe the draconian guns laws in CA may have helped to feed their sense of supremacy.

I do not wish to paint all police agencies with a broad brush. However, I feel safer having my own arms to protect myself rather than depending on a 911 call.

savanahsdad
February 10, 2013, 01:34 AM
when my twins graduate from basic training in San diego CA. I plain driveing out there for there graduation. thanks for scareing me :cuss: I guess I bring a throw-away , and leave the Smith's at home :cuss:
I drive long haul truck, my boss asked me if I wanted a load going out there , I said NO THANKS ! there trucking laws are as bad as there gun laws .so I'm takeing the wifes car :)

joeschmoe
February 10, 2013, 01:42 AM
Only leo worship allowed here. IBTL.

r1derbike
February 10, 2013, 01:49 AM
Every citizen a suspect.Every citizen a criminal. Just not enough evidence found yet, to issue a citation, but sooner-or-later...the local coffers will be filled.

ljnowell
February 10, 2013, 01:50 AM
I'm amazed this one is still going...........mods must be out partying tonite.

r1derbike
February 10, 2013, 01:56 AM
My brother retired with 25 years in blue, The last seven of It as Chief. He has a house full of nice firearms. It's amazing how many people want to dispose of there firearms. He actually told me that same thing when I ask him about a nice rifle he had.I'm guessing he always got to keep his black-and-white at home?

hueyville
February 10, 2013, 01:58 AM
I lost respect when they let two perps keep the entire force at bay until they went to local gun shops to confiscate weapons and spare ammo.

r1derbike
February 10, 2013, 01:59 AM
I'm amazed this one is still going...........mods must be out partying tonite.Well, there's always a dark side to the business. Sometimes these stories need told, at least that's my thought. I'm sure they will pipe-in when enough is enough.

hueyville
February 10, 2013, 02:11 AM
Had stolen Smith model 60 recovered by Atlanta P.D. They informed me of recovery, tried two years to get back with no luck. A few years later was contacted as owner of record when it was used in a crime. I faxed investigators original stolen forms and recovery notices. They seemed to not want to talk to me after that. I again tried to get it returned with no luck. Once the cops get your gun, better to write it off.

Twiki357
February 10, 2013, 02:18 AM
As a person who spent most of my life (50+ years) living under LAPD jurisdiction, I find your statement "Lost my trust" to be a complement compared to my experiences with LAPD. I have personally had them steel from me (Two S&W J fames) while investigating a burglary at my house, create false traffic citations, lie in court, impound my sons car and receive cash from the tow truck driver (And never report the impound or issue a citation) and commit a murder right in front of my house.

As for their not issuing CCW permits in the last 17 years, that has been the standing policy of LAPD and LA Sheriffs since at least the early 1960's that I'm aware of. Unless, of course, you are a politician, celebrity, or millionaire.

For your information, if your not already aware, LAPD has (or had) a formal written policy to never return a firearm to the rightful owner without a successful law suit by that owner. It is their policy directive 14 or 44 or ?

Their attitude and arrogance is appropriately displayed on the license plate frames for their personal vehicles: "KMA ###" (kiss my ass).

End of rant by an escapee to Arizona

USAF_Vet
February 10, 2013, 02:22 AM
Trust needs to be earned before it can be lost.

As a general rule, I don't have a lot of trust for big city PD's. Prove to me that my tax dollars are going to good use first.

This is a reason I live in the sticks. County cops and/ or State Police respond... Usually after the fact.

csa77
February 10, 2013, 02:29 AM
I was once friends with a pasco county sheriff (haven't talked to him in over 10 years tho) here In Florida. I had seen him on several occasions watch his own girlfriend do cocaine and smoke marijuana. he also used to attend parties where under age drinking was rampant. he used to brag about how he could could the speed limit while driving when he was off duty and if he got pulled over they would just let him go since he was a fellow officer.

He was cool if you knew him personally, but if you didn't and he met you on The job you might be In for a full on Roid rage.

As I've gotten older the whole experience with him has left me with a moderate level of distrust toward law enforcement.

Shadow 7D
February 10, 2013, 05:12 AM
and one of them said "My brother is an LAPD police officer, and he has an amazing collection of firearms. Citizens just gave them to him to dispose of."

My problem with that statement is how many times has that 'gave me' happened in the face of supposed felonies or other scare tactics?

P.O.2010
February 10, 2013, 06:31 AM
As a Police Officer and a combat veteran I can tell you from first hand experience that the type of behavior you're describing can be attributed to three things, the first being the way Police Officers are trained, the second being popular culture and the third being the quality of those being recruited.

Almost every major department that I am aware of uses Marine Corps boot camp or Army basic training as its model. The degree to which training is militarized varies from agency to agency but that flavor, so to speak, is always there. Police Officers aren't being trained to keep the peace - they're being trained to be "warriors", "Soldiers of the law" etc. Recruits are taught from day one that Police Officers are engaged in a so-called war on crime, that anyone who isn't a Police Officer isn't to be trusted, that Police Officers are universally hated, that anyone who has the opportunity to kill a Police Officer will do so and, most importantly, that Police Officers are superior to those they serve. When I went through my academy I was shocked and dismayed to see the extent to which the training was meant to replicate Paris Island. If you train a Police Officer to be a Soldier or Marine you can't be surprised when he treats his post like it was occupied territory. While in the academy we never once read the U.S. Constitution or the State Constitution. It's hard to support and defend something when you don't even know what it is or what it says. Of course we spent plenty of time reading the law in reference to what weapons you can arrest people for possessing in public. Priorities.

Another issue is the fact that if you turn on a fictional cop show today being a corrupt and brutal Police Officer is glorified. Young people who wanted to be Police Officers used to watch Dragnet or Adam 12 and model themselves after Sgt. Friday or Reed and Malloy, now they aspire to imitate Vic Mackey on the Shield or Sipowicz on NYPD Blue. The message being sent by popular culture is that if you aren't a brutal and/or corrupt Police Officer you aren't trying hard enough. Honest Officers are portrayed as weak or naive while corrupt Officers are portrayed as skilled, effective and irresistible to women. Folks may laugh at what I'm saying but believe me, years of watching this garbage has an effect and it isn't good. I've met Cops who revere Vic Mackey, who want to be Vic Mackey. Why? Because that's what they grew up on.

Finally we're getting an ever increasing number of recruits coming into Policing who've never previously held a full time job and have no family responsibilities. Young men and women with minimal life experience are more susceptible to being brainwashed and dehumanized than those who've been around the block. They just don't have the experience that someone with a stable work history and a family to support has. When you don't have your own power base it's harder to pass judgement on your co-workers and to take a stand for what you know is right. Less mature Police Officers are more easily taught to fear the public and far easier to bully once they leave the academy.

What does this mean for the Second Amendment? Well, it means that the Officer you see on the street is more likely than ever to have been taught to regard you as their inferior by default, to have been taught that civilian ownership of firearms is dangerous and to believe that the Constitution is an antiquated relic (assuming that they've ever read the document at any point in their lives - many have not). If you want the Police in your area to respect your right to keep and bear arms I would suggest you inform yourself as to how your local Police are trained and that you demand that training be changed if it isn't producing the type of Officer you need in your community. Many agencies teach that guns in the possession of non-Police are as dangerous as nuclear waste and require an equally extreme response. Police Officers, both good and bad, are the way they are for a reason. Find out what that reason is and act accordingly.

larryh1108
February 10, 2013, 08:12 AM
Thanks 2010, for your service and well written opinion. I can only imagine that the LEO in mega-cities feel like they are in a war zone but it's a choice they make. I can see why they are taught to be proactive instead of reactive in an environment like that.

Thanks for the insight and experience you've given. It helps understand the culture a little better even though it does not make it right. A certain percentage of any group or culture likes to push the envelope and it seems that the law enforcement community attracts those who are aggressive, by nature. I'd want these folks watching my back but I wouldn't want them coming at me. Stealing guns from law abiding citizens under faux threats is akin to armed robbery and there should be legal recourse. We want LEOs to be on our side, not the ones stealing from us.

76shuvlinoff
February 10, 2013, 09:40 AM
Simply based on the posts above I have little doubt which side of 2A most police depts are on if push comes to shove.

Baba Louie
February 10, 2013, 10:03 AM
P.O.2010,
Thank you for your post. Your Sacrifice and Service too, but your written words provide brief clarity and remarkable insight into one aspect of the issue that we should all bear in mind. Occam's Razor being what it is.

dab102999
February 10, 2013, 10:07 AM
PO2010 wrote

If you want the Police in your area to respect your right to keep and bear arms I would suggest you inform yourself as to how your local Police are trained and that you demand that training be changed if it isn't producing the type of Officer you need in your community. Many agencies teach that guns in the possession of non-Police are as dangerous as nuclear waste and require an equally extreme response. Police Officers, both good and bad, are the way they are for a reason. Find out what that reason is and act accordingly.

There is a video on you tube. Just type in ca police and gun offensives. This video has a police chief stating that guns are not for denense. They are for offense and intimidation only. After reading 2010's post definatly see the corilation.

mac66
February 10, 2013, 10:46 AM
I was in LE for a long time and I think people need to understand the cops are often put in tough situations. It used to be that if you caught some kids drinking in the park, you made them pour out the open containers and confiscated the rest and let them go. That used to be ok, until you got some a-hole parent who came to the station claiming you harassed little Johnny and stole his property. Now, everybody gets busted and little Johnny gets a Minor in Possession ticket and big fine, ruining his driving privileges and career opportunities.

I worked in a big city once where we caught so many people carrying guns (before the shall issue concealed laws) that they wouldn't even issue an arrest warrant for them. If you caught someone with a gun, run them to see if they were wanted, run the gun to see if it was stolen, then confiscate it. I imagine that big cities in places like LA, Chicago, NYC, DC where you really can't carry a gun legally are still like that. I know people in Chicago who have guns. They are willing to take their chances if caught.

In the 'burbs, if you caught some guy carrying a gun without a concealed permit because he got mugged a couple months ago and you have to decide whether to bust him or not. Putting him through the system doesn't make much sense so he gives up his gun in exchange for not being arrested. Of course a lot of what you did depending on what he was doing at the time and his attitude. Now days, everybody gets hooked and let the courts decide.

larryh1108
February 10, 2013, 10:59 AM
Putting him through the system doesn't make much sense so he gives up his gun in exchange for not being arrested.

This is what is being discussed. If the guy gives up his gun, there is no charge. If there is no charge, there is no "evidence" so where does the gun go? It would make sense that the decision could be made as to if the gun was a Raven or a Colt 1911, right? So it almost comes to a case of whether the officer wants the gun or the collar. Now, I respect all the men and women who lay their lives on the line for us but the bad element in all aspects of life are those who give the others a bad reputation. Our LEOs need to be held in a better light and incidents like this makes them all look bad, even though it is not true.

Al Thompson
February 10, 2013, 11:03 AM
It is the declared mission of this board to achieve and provide the highest quality of firearms discussion on the Internet.

I know we have a reputation for being pro-cop and if you look closely, the threads we keep open reflect proper firearms use by a LEO, for the most part.

There is always a "piling on" when police misconduct is discussed, as we see here.

IMHO, off topic for THR.

If you enjoyed reading about "How the LAPD Lost my Trust" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!