Ar15 - Thought on 22lr conversion


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colorado_handgunner
February 9, 2013, 11:49 PM
What are you all's thoughts on the 22lr conversion bolt carrier/mag kits for an Ar15? And positive or negative experience?

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offthepaper
February 10, 2013, 12:14 AM
I have a Ceiner for my AR 20".
Had to adjust the scope, but the rifle shot the bulk Federal pack pretty well. Not quite as accurate as the centerfire, but still pretty good. Cheap shooting. Keep the gas port clean though.

colorado_handgunner
February 10, 2013, 12:57 AM
I have a Ceiner for my AR 20"... Keep the gas port clean though.

Yes I have heard that. What do you recommend to do so?
Pardon my ignorance, but I am a Nube with ARs.
Know handguns far, far better.

Mot45acp
February 10, 2013, 01:32 AM
Had a Ceiner. Never worked. You have to get one that was built when he was in a good mood. I believe he was or is getting sued, due to the high volume of crap he was putting out. Really shifty company.

Got a S&W M&P....digest anything I put in it. Gave it the Magpul treatment. Couldn't be happier.

bglz42
February 10, 2013, 07:43 AM
Love my Ciener kit. Never had a problem. Shoots great!

gidaeon
February 10, 2013, 09:34 AM
IMO stainless or plated versions being 'slicker' than phosphated models feed more reliably, lack the usual break-in period and wipe down slightly easier.

Be aware some models (more recent years at least with CMMG and spikes) will extract live unfired rounds, while older models you're left using a tool to remove a dud or any unfired round (it gets very annoying). Grouping will not be the same as with a dedicated .22, my only experience is with 1:9 twist so far, but can still hit steel consistently at 100yards off-hand with bulk. Took conversion kit to an appleseed and will say ammo selection is critical if shooting for groups. I know of some folks who plugged the gas port due to firing too many .22 without running some full-house .223 to clear the gas tube on their AR.

2 x 5.56 rounds every few hundred rounds works for me along with a quick wipe down of feed ramp and throat of conversion kit every 300+ rounds.

You will want more mags than you think - I really like the gen 4 Blackdog x-form mags as the feed lips (both nylon and SS) and they can still be found at reasonable prices every few weeks even now.

jim243
February 10, 2013, 09:36 AM
For the price of the conversion kit, I would recommend you get a 10/22 or other 22 LR rifle.

Jim

colorado_handgunner
February 10, 2013, 09:40 AM
Have a 22 marlin already.

hatt
February 10, 2013, 10:15 AM
Had a Ceiner. Never worked. You have to get one that was built when he was in a good mood.
Might be your gun. I have a Ceiner that runs like a top with just about any ammo in several guns but doesn't run too hot in one gun. Old M&P15.

highlander 5
February 10, 2013, 10:28 AM
I don't think Ciener is in business anymore as he was arrested for fraud a couple of years ago. Was taking money for conversion kits but never delivered and his customer service left a great deal to be desired. I'd just buy a dedicated upper and leave it at that. I have 3,one is from Model 1the other is a Tactical Solutions and the 3rd is one that was built by a local AR guy. They are accurate and function with the Ceiner and Black Dog mags that I have on hand.

jmr40
February 10, 2013, 10:36 AM
You'd be better off buying a S&W 15-22 in my experience.

CharlieDeltaJuliet
February 10, 2013, 11:13 AM
I tried the S&W M&P15-22 it just wasn't for me(I just could not get used to the plastic), although it was a good rifle. I did I t like what I heard about the .22lr and the gas tubes. I ended up getting a CMMG Quebec-A dedicated .22. It is a standard AR lower and upper, just built with a .22barrel and bolt carrier group. It isn't for everyone, but it was the right fit for me.

http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff464/ChadJohnson1976/Firearms/IMG_0455.jpg

MedWheeler
February 10, 2013, 11:53 AM
Right now, I wonder if you could even get ammo for it for less than you're used to paying for 5.56/.223.

HKGuns
February 10, 2013, 11:56 AM
I've never understood the point of a .22 caliber AR, but that is probably just me. If I want to shoot .22 I just pull out one of my Ruger 10/22's and plink away. It isn't as if shooting a .22 will make you any better of a shot with 5.56 rounds. As Med says, you'll be lucky to find ammo for either right now.

markboss
February 10, 2013, 01:06 PM
I have a CMMG 22 conversion...runs great in my BCM ar15...
Never have a problem!

CharlieDeltaJuliet
February 10, 2013, 01:35 PM
I agree about the ammo being scarce, I always try to keep 4-5k rounds on hand just incase scares like what we have now. If you are like me, I never liked the styling of a 10/22, that was the reason I went with an AR in 22. The 10/22, mini-14's and mini-30's were never my forte'. I have been really impressed with mine. It shoots as good as any other semi-auto .22 I have ever shot. Good luck on your decision and enjoy.. Let us know what you choose.

colorado_handgunner
February 10, 2013, 01:36 PM
Think I might just put the tech-sights back on my marlin 22 and call it good.

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GCBurner
February 10, 2013, 02:13 PM
The Ceiner and the CMMG are essentially identical, and use the same magazines from Black Dog. I've got one of each, and they work in my rifles with no problems. As noted, accuracy is not as tight as with the .223 centerfire, due to the .001" smaller diameter rimfire bullets, but it's acceptable for plinking out to 50 yards or so.

Lemann
February 10, 2013, 02:52 PM
IMO get a dedicated .22 upper instead of a conversion. I picked up my DPMS upper for $380 OTD a few week ago and couldnt be happier. using a dedicated upper you will be able to just swap uppers and be gtg instead of having to resight your optics or sites. also keeps your standard upper "cleaner"

and for those that are wondering whats the point of a .22 AR. for me I like to train with what im gonna use. So having all the controls in the same place, the weight being really close, and mag changes being the same make it completely worth it to me.

aubie515
February 10, 2013, 03:42 PM
I've never understood the point of a .22 caliber AR, but that is probably just me. If I want to shoot .22 I just pull out one of my Ruger 10/22's and plink away. It isn't as if shooting a .22 will make you any better of a shot with 5.56 rounds. As Med says, you'll be lucky to find ammo for either right now.
What is so difficult to understand? Having a dedicated 22 upper that is the same as your go to rifle is the way to go for training since manual of arms is the same. Only real difference is weight of mag/ammo and recoil. AR22 is a great way to train instead of blowing .223/5.56 reserves.

Girodin
February 10, 2013, 05:35 PM
What is so difficult to understand? Having a dedicated 22 upper that is the same as your go to rifle is the way to go for training since manual of arms is the same. Only real difference is weight of mag/ammo and recoil.

That actually depends on the upper. Many don't have a last round bolt hold open feature that operates they exact same way.

Overall I like, and use the concept. Using a .22LR upper is not a 1:1 in terms of training. However, I believe used properly there is great value and that it is much better than no trigger trigger time. Given the price of ammo they are a great tool.

I think a dedicated upper is a much better way to go than a conversion bolt.

mljdeckard
February 10, 2013, 05:48 PM
As far as I know none of them really hold the bolt open. Some of them hold it open halfway until you remove the magazine.

There are a few problems with the drop-in bolts. Sometimes they run, sometimes they don't, depending on the bolt and the upper. The main reason I didn't want one, is that AR barrels are the wrong caliber and rate of twist for .22 LR. They will shoot, but don't expect them to group like an actual .22.

I have a CMMG dedicated upper. With two mags and a carry handle, it was about $400. All of my friends with the drop-in bolt kits are jealous. But if you want to make a four year-old nephew cackle like a little demon, let him do a mag dump with it.

CharlieDeltaJuliet
February 10, 2013, 06:55 PM
CMMG now makes a bolt open adapter for their kits and uppers. It works great and is usually under $30.

Listen to mljdeckard, he is absolutly ore t about the drop ins. Atleast from my experience. The adapter is relativly new. I think they came about with the Evolution or Revolution or whatever. I cannot comment on the other brands but I love the CMMG dedicated rifles and dedicated uppers.

@ colorado handgunner, I understand if you go back to the Marlin too. I have an old Nylon 66 that is my go to .22. Good luck and if I can answer any questions please feel free to ask..

colorado_handgunner
February 10, 2013, 08:17 PM
Thanks for the input guys.

k_dawg
February 10, 2013, 08:55 PM
Another big benefit: many ranges do not allow .223 "Rifle Calibers", but allow the .22lr.

jmorris
February 10, 2013, 10:22 PM
I have a dedicated upper the only two things I dislike is the cost (in the end it's still just a .22lr) and the fact that AR sights are quite high off of the bore. If you have been around "normal" .22's your entire life, it's quite different.

gotigers
February 10, 2013, 10:24 PM
to dirty and inaccurate

get an upper or a 15-22.

highlander 5
February 10, 2013, 10:36 PM
I had a conversion kit that would fit ny bull barreled varmint AR no matter how hard I tried to get it into the chamber,that's when I decided that a dedicated upper is/was the way to go.

Snowdog
February 11, 2013, 12:49 AM
I have a CMMG for my PSA and love it. Not a failure of any kind as of yet, though it has seen less than 500 rounds so far. I just don't shoot the AR much. Heck, I don't shoot anything much these days due to time constraints. That needs to change.

OcelotZ3
February 11, 2013, 01:24 AM
I have both a surplus military conversion unit and an Atchisson converter unit. Both run just fine in my Colt & S&W. A lot cheaper way to practice with the AR than using 223.

Mine were free (inherited from my dad).

BullfrogKen
February 11, 2013, 01:40 PM
I got a 15-22 and love it.

Very nice for inexpensive practice. I can shoot it on the indoor range at the club - I can't do that with a high power rifle caliber. And I've brought it out for newbies who totally go bonkers with how much fun it is.

HKGuns
February 11, 2013, 09:42 PM
What is so difficult to understand? Having a dedicated 22 upper that is the same as your go to rifle is the way to go for training since manual of arms is the same.

I guess that is where the difficulty lies. I've shot enough different rifles where the "manual of arms" thing doesn't factor into the equation. (for me)

An AR, like most auto-loading rifles, is a pretty simple beast. Pulling on the charging handle and pulling the trigger I've never found too complicated. Getting the shots on target is where the practice is of most benefit, regardless of the "manual of arms".

But then I tend to be exceptional.

Practicing with a 10-22, etc, does not teach you to work the controls on an AR, practice with the .22 unit does do so.

There are literally three controls, just as with most any other rifle, including bolt actions! Charging handle, lever, bolt, whatever you want to call it.....Safety and trigger. Where does it get more complicated than that? Perhaps if you've never shot a rifle before, but come on.....aren't we exaggerating the difficulty of operating an AR just a bit?

Either that or I take too many things for granted after doing this for over 40 years, which may be the case.

Girodin
February 12, 2013, 01:40 AM
An AR, like most auto-loading rifles, is a pretty simple beast. Pulling on the charging handle and pulling the trigger I've never found too complicated. Getting the shots on target is where the practice is of most benefit, regardless of the "manual of arms".

There is a quite a bit more to weapons manipulation for an AR than simply pulling the charging handle and trigger.

Moreover, it is about muscle memory, which is instilled by doing the same thing again and again, which in turn requires things to be in the same place.

My guess is that folks interested in an AR .22LR as a trainer probably are interested in using their guns in a different way than you are.

There is a world of difference between being able to operate the basics of a gun on a calm square range and really being able to run the gun to your full potential in dynamic situations, under stress.

mac66
February 12, 2013, 11:32 AM
My Spikes conversion (same as the CMMG) is fun to shoot in my ARs but not very reliable after shooting a couple mags through it. If I was to do it again, I would opt for a dedicated .22lr upper.

jmorris
February 12, 2013, 05:11 PM
There is a quite a bit more to weapons manipulation for an AR than simply pulling the charging handle Good thing too, if you get used to training with your .22lr AR you'll never pull the charging handle back far enough to chamber a .223. Also many .22 kits don't have the last shot bolt hold open.

Girodin
February 13, 2013, 01:13 PM
I laugh every time I see somebody who is so worried about swapping mags and firing lots of rds that they just overlook the fact that if they need to swap mags in a real fighting rifle, they are just missing way too often

I laugh when people cannot see that development of certain skills sets are not per se mutual exclusive. These people do not seem to comprehend the false dichotomy they suggest.

I also must question why people who have seen actual combat with a rifle. Guys like Vickers or Haley to name a few, teach weapons manipulation? Hmmmm. If you have been to a Vickers class you know that accuracy is very important to him. However, you would also know (as you would if you had done much training at all) that accuracy is not the only useful, or even necessary, skill. You'd also know that developing other skills, say various weapons manipulation skills, does not mean one doesn't have or cannot also develop skill with respect to accuracy.

In sum, yes accuracy is very important, and no I do not believe that practice with a .22LR upper or conversion is alone sufficient. Much as dry fire practice along wouldn't be. Firing .22LR is not a 1:1 with using a 5.56 rifle. I do think it can be very useful for working on and developing certain skills. To me it a a tool like dry fire.

BullfrogKen
February 13, 2013, 01:18 PM
Hey, I just like my 15-22 because it's plain fun.

My friends like it, and we can have fun and shoot together without breaking the bank.
I can shoot it on our indoor range, which I can't with my .223 AR.
I've brought many non-gun people out to the club and let them shoot that scary rifle, watch them smile ear-to-ear after the first 50 rounds, and want more.

bowyer19
February 13, 2013, 01:46 PM
I have been happy with a Chiappa dedicated .22LR upper. The dedicated upper has the right rifling twist for .22long rifle, has worked as reliably as any other .22 semi auto, is as accurate and has the same trigger pull as my 5.56 and 6.8 SPC uppers. It also does not put dirty gunk in your gas tube.

I got mine on sale for $300 with 2 magazines.

BullfrogKen
February 13, 2013, 06:05 PM
Oh well. It was still a fine waste of my money.


The women and children I've brought to the club to shoot it, love it. It's so light, kicks so little, and makes so little noise they warm up to it right away. It's role as an "ambassador" for non-gun owners has been absolutely priceless to me.

Girodin
February 14, 2013, 01:29 AM
Are people really crying about the expense and "waste" of money of an upper that cost $450 or so? That is nothing. Particularly in the AR world. My Noveske upper retails for $1300 or so. The lower is $100, the SSA trigger in it is $210, the other lower parts cost $100+, the stock was $100. The T1 micro was $550+. A good mount for the T1 is over $100. A decent suppressor and mount will run you over $1k when its all said and done.

In sum, wasting a whopping $450 or so is basically nothing. And the $300 difference between it and a drop in unit is pocket change. It is literally about what I spend on food tomorrow for Valentine's Day dinner. In absolute terms its very little money, and in terms of AR stuff its is basically nothing as well.

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