Colorado Emergency


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MBaneACP
February 10, 2013, 02:07 PM
Antigun forces in the Colorado Legislature are fast-tracking the first 4 antigun bills (mag capacity caps, reinstitution of 'gun free zones" of universities, tax on gun owners to pay for background checks and universal background checks) in committee. Even though the bills were only formally announced on Friday, the "public comment" period before committees on Tuesday and Wednesday.

My blog (http://michaelbane.blogspot.com/2013/02/colorado-emergency.html) has the links to the laws themselves and the NRA-ILA action alert issued Saturday.

I was at the State Legislature all day Friday (I also spoke at the pro-Second Amendment demonstration), and I left thinking we are in real trouble here.

If you're a Colorado resident and can't be there to testify, it is of critical importance that you get in touch with your state representatives AS SOON AS POSSIBLE and let them know where you stand. I was told on Friday that letters and faxes count more than email...if you can only email, do so, then print out a copy of the email and mail it. If you've contacted them already, do so again!

Michael Bane

If you enjoyed reading about "Colorado Emergency" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
hso
February 10, 2013, 03:56 PM
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=701402

We've had a thread on this in Activism for a week tracking these from rumor to final reveal and full text.

Coloradans should contact their legislators and work to coordinate the rural district legislators into a bloc that refuses to let urban refugees from out of state that are trying to turn CO into something like they fled gut the state of its character.

MRH
February 10, 2013, 04:06 PM
I've sent emails to over a 100 Senators and Representatives. Some of those were duplicates, so maybe 80 or so separate people.

Those included my local county people, including Senator Morris, the leader of the Senate, and the most rabid, anti gun liberal; and to members of 10 different committees.

I was asked to attend the hearings, but declined due to severe hearing loss, that wouldn't let me understand the conversations.

MRH
February 10, 2013, 04:14 PM
From The Gazette: quote from Senator Kent Lambert (R-Colorado Springs)

"These are extremely radical proposals that aren't going to fix the problems."

MachIVshooter
February 10, 2013, 04:24 PM
I'm really not interested in being a part of THR anymore, but this is too important to not post.

Folks, I don't care what your excuse is, BE THERE! This is the blitzkrieg, the end game. We have never faced a threat like this in our beautiful state before. Denver has always been the liberal, progressive, anti-gun bastion, but the rest of the state has been able to resist their influence in the past. That is no longer the case. The democrats have a majority in both houses, and they control the executive office. We are in serious trouble!

I want to see THOUSANDS of people there on Tuesday and Wednesday opposing this assault on our rights. The turnout at Friday's rally was pitiful, maybe 250 people, and we got only a tiny blurb of media coverage. We need a bigger crowd with a bigger voice.

Call in sick, take a personal day, maybe lose a little money if you're self employed like me, doesn't matter. The cost of letting this go through is far greater than the inconveniences of dedicating a couple of days to be at the golden dome in that cesspool they call Denver.

MRH
February 10, 2013, 04:35 PM
Sorry, typo in #3. That was Senator Morse (not Morris)

BogBabe
February 10, 2013, 06:16 PM
I was asked to attend the hearings, but declined due to severe hearing loss, that wouldn't let me understand the conversations.

MRH, under the requirements of the ADA, can't you attend and force them to provide you with resources to understand and participate in the hearings?

LS240
February 10, 2013, 06:18 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but after reading the text of the bills, specifically hb13-1229, dealing with background checks for private sales, it would appear simply allowing someone to handle or shoot one's firearm outside of a designated shooting range could result in a class 1 misdemeanor. The bill provides for certain exemptions for temporary transfers, including shooting ranges, hunting, and the need to arm someone for defense, but recreational use in general does not seem to be an exemption. In other words, if I hand a firearm to a friend while on BLM land while out camping, I could face serious criminal charges. Granted, there's a low likelyhood of this ever being an issue, but the very fact the possibility is there is worrying. These bills are even worse than they appear on the surface.

Billll
February 10, 2013, 06:24 PM
They are expecting a large turnout, hence the hearings in the old Supreme court room. Let's not disappoint them.

They're also trying to minimize the impact. Hearings start when the House adjourns, sometime in the morning, and ends as soon as the last person testifies. I'm told to be there around 9:30 and plan for a long day. Nearest free parking is 3 blocks south, then 1 or 2 east or west.

mokin
February 10, 2013, 06:54 PM
I like what hso said about turning the rural representatives into a bloc to oppose legislation forced on the rest of the state by Denver. It will take all of our efforts to do this. I've been e mailing my state reps now for over a month. I wont be able to attend later this week. One of the drawbacks of living way out west. I urge those of you who can to do so.

Fremmer
February 10, 2013, 07:17 PM
Have they started a formal investigation (not some hokey accountability forum or panel controlled by CU) about what happened with the joker and his psychiatrist who did nothing to stop this? No, no calls to get CU to tell us what happened? Nobody asking for answers, easier to just ban guns?

Tell them NO, no compromises, no new gun control!

Old Fuff
February 10, 2013, 07:30 PM
Since you folks in Colorado are pushed for time, try this simple but effective tactic.

Look in your landline phone books for the phone number of local Democrat and Republican Party Headquarters. With luck they may even have an 800 number.

In any case call both, and you will likely get a nice lady on the line, so be polite and hold your tongue. You want to make a favorable impression.

They will ask what you are calling about, and you tell them which legislature (Colorado or U.S.) the bill number(s) and that you are strongly opposed!

They will log all this, along with your name, address and phone number; and then pass the information on to the concerned legislators and likely the Governor.

Very, very few of them will ignore what they hear from their respective party offices. What comes to them from Home Base will at least carry the weight of e-mail - but you should continue to do that too.

You don’t have to call on a landline - cell phones are fine. :evil:

borrowedtime69
February 10, 2013, 09:18 PM
Me, Paranoid? yup. i firmly beleive that these bills are gonna go through since the state is ruled by the left now, as so many "commie-fornians" have immigrated here.

My paranoia shows through by my belief that anybody that sends in email, calls, or hardcopy letters to government officials will be put on a special "watch list" to be dealt with after the laws are passed as being mentally ill, subversives or just regular old seditionists. Things have now gone too far to the left/totalitarianism to be brought back. I am not telling anyone NOT to send in their support for the second amendment, im just saying, think about it and the possible consiquences.

If 10 round capacity mags and single action firearms made us truly all safer, then why arent the gun control people demanding that Law Enforcement must go along with the restrictions, cause, after all, criminals follow all the gun control laws..... right?!?

ATBackPackin
February 10, 2013, 09:30 PM
Me, Paranoid? yup. i firmly beleive that these bills are gonna go through since the state is ruled by the left now, as so many "commie-fornians" have immigrated here.

My paranoia shows through by my belief that anybody that sends in email, calls, or hardcopy letters to government officials will be put on a special "watch list" to be dealt with after the laws are passed as being mentally ill, subversives or just regular old seditionists. Things have now gone too far to the left/totalitarianism to be brought back. I am not telling anyone NOT to send in their support for the second amendment, im just saying, think about it and the possible consiquences.

If 10 round capacity mags and single action firearms made us truly all safer, then why arent the gun control people demanding that Law Enforcement must go along with the restrictions, cause, after all, criminals follow all the gun control laws..... right?!?
For the sake of argument let us just say for a moment that this is true. So what! Is your solution to hide in a dark corner and hope they don't see you all the while the are stripping your neighbors of their rights?

Rancher5
February 10, 2013, 10:58 PM
Great Post I been trying to wake up my buddies, Since they have Oh its not going to happen here, being Colo not to many years ago was a very conservative State, Now the Media misinformation machine is broadcasting Bad gun events even though Good gun events happen thousands of times every day in the US, someone protecting their family or others diverting a criminal or attacker. Studies out of Florida show that in 94, five million people were protected by guns from invasion or attack in one year, Now violent crime is 50% lower than it was 30 years ago. Guns also are used in 1% of all violent acts, So please educate someone in firearm ownership reality,not Media Hype

JERRY
February 10, 2013, 11:06 PM
God willing, Colorado is on my short list if i make it to retirement.

HorseSoldier
February 10, 2013, 11:13 PM
Even though the bills were only formally announced on Friday, the "public comment" period before committees on Tuesday and Wednesday.


The legislative cloak & dagger routine seems to be growing in popularity these days. I think that everyone writing/calling their elected officials reference 2nd Amendment issues should also weigh in on the concept that rushed legislation is inherently anti-democratic and that votes can and will be cast against those who consider that any part of good/appropriate government.

Rancher5
February 10, 2013, 11:16 PM
Its not what it use to be, crowded though not to the coast standards, and becoming more liberal,kids living in a virtual world no need for out doors or travel, this world overall is sad, People just want to tell others what to do. Good Luck Colo Spring is Great, one of the most Conservative counties in the Unites States, Elpaso County Colo

MachIVshooter
February 11, 2013, 01:48 AM
Good Luck Colo Spring is Great, one of the most Conservative counties in the Unites States, Elpaso County Colo

El Paso county's senator is John Morse, the democrat senate president who is spear heading this thing.

El Paso is nowhere near the most conservative county in the USA. Not even in the state, not by a long shot. Lincoln, Kiowa, Elbert, Yuma, Washington-these are the truly red counties, by 3/4 or better.

longknife12
February 11, 2013, 09:33 AM
Emails sent this morning...again!
Dan

Fred Fuller
February 11, 2013, 10:01 AM
https://www.facebook.com/magpul/posts/428803833863947

Magpul Industries Corp. · 128,425 like this
14 hours ago ·

In addition to the national battle to protect our firearms rights, many states are currently engaged in their own fights. Here in CO, a state with a strong heritage of firearm and other personal freedoms, we are facing some extreme challenges to firearms rights. We have been engaged in dialogue with legislators here presenting our arguments to stop legislation from even being introduced, but our efforts did not deter those of extreme views.

After the NRAs visit last week, several anti-freedom bills were introduced by CO legislators, and a very aggressive timeline has been set forth in moving these bills forward.

The bills include:
HB 1229, Background checks for Gun Transfers--a measure to prohibit private sales between CO residents, and instead require a full FFL transfer, including a 4473.

HB 1228, Payment for Background Checks for Gun Transfers-- a measure that would require CO residents to pay for the back logged state-run CBI system (currently taking 3 times the federally mandated wait time for checks to occur) instead of using the free federal NICS checks.

And finally, HB 1224, Prohibiting Large Capacity Ammunition Magazines--a measure that bans the possession, sale, or transfer of magazines over 10 round capacity. The measures and stipulations in this bill would deprive CO residents of the value of their private property by prohibiting the sale or transfer of all magazines over 10 rounds. This bill would also prohibit manufacture of magazines greater than 10 rounds for commercial sale out of the state, and place restrictions on the manufacture of military and law enforcement magazines that would cripple production.

We'd like to ask all CO residents to please contact your state legislators and the members of the Judiciary Committee and urge them to kill these measures in committee, and to vote NO if they reach the floor.

We also ask you to show your support for the 2nd Amendment at the Capitol on Tuesday, Feb 12, for the magazine ban committee hearing and Wednesday,
Feb 13, for the hearing on the other measures.

Due to the highly restrictive language in HB 1224, if passed, and we remained here, this measure would require us to cease PMAG production on July 1, 2013.

In short, Magpul would be unable to remain in business as a CO company, and the over 200 jobs for direct employees and nearly 700 jobs at our subcontractors and suppliers would pick up and leave CO. Due to the structure of our operations, this would be entirely possible, hopefully without significant disruption to production.

The legislators drafting these measures do so in spite of the fact that nothing they are proposing will do anything to even marginally improve public safety in CO, and in fact, will leave law-abiding CO residents less able to defend themselves, strip away rights and property from residents who have done nothing wrong, and send nearly 1000 jobs and millions in tax revenue out of the state.

We like CO, we want to continue to operate in CO, but most of all, we want CO to remain FREE.

Please help us in this fight, and let your voices be heard!

We have included the contact information for the House Judiciary committee for your convenience:

House Judiciary Committee
Rep. Daniel Kagan, Chair: 303-866-2921, repkagan@gmail.com
Rep. Pete Lee, Vice Chair: 303-866-2932, pete.lee.house@state.co.us
Rep. John Buckner: 303-866-2944, john.buckner.house@state.co.us
Rep. Lois Court: 303-866-2967, lois.court.house@state.co.us
Rep. Bob Gardner, 303-866-2191, bob.gardner.house@state.co.us
Rep. Polly Lawrence, 303-866-2935, polly.lawrence.house@state.co.us
Rep. Mike McLachlan, 303-866-2914, mike.mclachlan.house@state.co.us
Rep. Rep Carole Murray, 303-866-2948, murrayhouse45@gmail.com
Rep. Brittany Pettersen, 303-866-2939, brittany.pettersen.house@state.co.us
Rep. Joseph Salazar, 303-866-2918, joseph.salazar.house@state.co.us
Rep. Jared Wright, 303-866-2583, jared.wright.house@state.co.us
------------------------------------

Their fb page is https://www.facebook.com/magpul?ref=stream

MachIVshooter
February 12, 2013, 03:06 AM
Bump.

I would like this to remain front and center, alongside other calls to action for states in peril.

I have been busting my posterior all weekend long, networking, writing letters, making phone calls, pleading with and imploring people to be at the capital.

We're only hours from what is probably our last chance to be heard in the biggest fight for the right to bear arms this state has ever seen.

I don't mean to come across as a prick, but you really don't have anything more important to do. I mean, ok, your kid has an emergency, your mother is ailing and may pass at any moment, stuff like that, OK, you get a pass. But for all the rest of us, I'm sorry, but if you think losing a couple day's pay sucks, well, if they pass this garbage, it's really gonna put "suck" in perspective. I promise, you'd gladly give that pittance of lost wages to have your rights back. I'm shutting my business down for two days, and having to offer my customers big discounts as an apology for forcing a reschedule of their appointments.

We have to show them who we are, how many we are, and remind them that they've stirred the hornet's nest.

vtail
February 12, 2013, 03:17 AM
Good luck from your Oklahoma brothers!

coloradokevin
February 12, 2013, 03:45 AM
I agree with what someone else said about the rush to jam this legislation through. Since the bills were only introduced on Friday, it seems a bit unfair that the public comment period is tomorrow. I've been closely following this issue as well as I can, and I only just found out about tomorrow's issues today.

For those of us who aren't retired, it's really hard to arrange a schedule around a last minute debate (especially when you work in a field like mine, where attendance is pretty well mandatory).

I can only imagine that the intent in doing this is to avoid seeing much support from gun owners. If this event was in two weeks, people could plan for it and show up. Since it is tomorrow, many folks are scrambling to figure out how to get their testimony heard.

I don't know if I can get there, but I assure all of you that I've written many letters so far, and will keep doing so. Colorado DOES have a gun culture, but we're being swept aside by an influx of far-left residents who believe that we should change this state to fit their priorities.

radiotom
February 12, 2013, 07:54 AM
Take action

http://www.reddit.com/r/gunpolitics/comments/18c5bj/colorado_time_to_email_your_representatives_again/

mrvco
February 12, 2013, 02:28 PM
Any updates today?

Steel Horse Rider
February 12, 2013, 03:30 PM
Calling the local party office is not a good idea. I am on the Executive Board of the Larimer County Republican Party and if someone is there to answer the phone it is merely a volunteer, probably a retired older female. The elected folks and the state party do not "check in" with us for information, mostly all they want is money and volunteers. Most state legislators are having weekend outreach meetings during the session. If you do not get notifications of these meetings call your local representative or senator at the Capitol building and ask to be put on their list. It helps if you are active in your party's caucus activities as they are always asking for e-mail addresses there and once you give them an address it will be used, at least in Larimer County it is.

This is why it is important to be registered something other than "None" or "Independent"! I don't like a lot of things the Republican Party does but my involvement has allowed me to know the right people and have some input (even though it is small in the grand scheme of things) on what is happening. If you are on the outside your impact is miniscule unless you believe in civil disobedience arrests. My elected officials are on the right side of this issue and know that I will support them in their fight, which includes giving them campaign donations when the anti-groups come after them.

IlikeSA
February 12, 2013, 09:33 PM
Universal background check passed: debate ongoing on magazine capacity limits.

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_22572461/major-battle-over-gun-bills-set-tuesday-at

MachIVshooter
February 13, 2013, 01:09 AM
As mentioned, HB13-1229 passed 7-4, despite overwhelming opposition from citizens and sheriffs alike. Their minds were made up. I had to leave before the vote on HB1224, the mag limit, lest my car be towed, but the bill's proponent testifiers ran out after only 40 minutes of the 2 hour allotment. There were still more than 100 of us there to speak in opposition when I left at 7:45.

Proponent arguments were made by mostly the usual suspects, and were the same tired, recycled diatribe.

The state NRA spokesman did an excellent job of destroying the proponent's statistics (which changed in each testimony)

Mr. Smith of Magpul was absolutely stellar, and even once assured by the committee that they would amend the bill so that it did not inhibit his business, he told them more than once that he still vehemently opposed the legislation on principle. I'm pretty sure he meant to tell them the company may still leave if it passes, but the chairman cut him off. Love the Magpul team!

Most of us did not have a chance to speak, but we were well represented by those who did, especially the sheriffs. The sheriffs representing the state sheriffs association were those from Larimer county, Elbert county :D, Routt county, Weld county and Gilpin county. They did us proud, and a special thanks to sheriff Justin Smith of Larimer county is owed; He really hit it hard and hammered it home. They will probably still pass it out of judiciary, but at least now they know what kind of slumbering giant they've awakened. The look on Rhonda Field's (bill sponsor) face was priceless when the chairman closed the testimonies on HB 1229 and asked all who opposed that weren't able to speak to stand, and only about 5 people in the room of ~200 remained seated (and this doesn't count the overflow room downstairs, equally packed, people standing against walls and sitting on the floor)

The outlook is still rather bleak, given the majorities and governorship, but it's comforting to see the folks who turned out on such short notice.

I will update tomorrow, which is slated for the College campus carry ban and charging us for background checks.

As an aside, I do have letters to write regarding practices at the capital building. Public hearings still in session, but they locked the doors to the public at 5 pm. I went to check the time on my parking spot (couldn't remember if I'd be good to 6 or 8), and returned to locked doors. Fortunately, we managed to be let back in by a security person, but anyone trying to attend after work and not fortunate enough to get the attention of someone inside would not be able to, which certainly isn't right.

coloradokevin
February 13, 2013, 01:10 AM
Universal background check passed: debate ongoing on magazine capacity limits.

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingne...set-tuesday-at

I do think the opponents of the magazine capacity restriction came on much stronger than the opponents of the universal background checks. I oppose either piece of legislation, but I think our side did a better job in the magazine debate, which didn't conclude until around 9pm tonight.

Hopefully we prevail on this issue.

Also, lets not forget that the background check bill isn't law just yet... it still needs to be voted into law by the house and senate, and signed by the governor (all under Democratic party control). We may still be able to fight these proposed laws, but we definitely need to bring all of our resources into it.

Everyone who cares about gun rights needs to get involved in this issue somehow, lest Colorado start down a path that has already failed so many other states.

MachIVshooter
February 13, 2013, 01:31 AM
Also, lets not forget that the background check bill isn't law just yet... it still needs to be voted into law by the house and senate, and signed by the governor (all under Democratic party control). We may still be able to fight these proposed laws, but we definitely need to bring all of our resources into it.

Yes, and we still need to keep writing our congresscritters to 1) oppose it and 2) if they're going to pass it, they need to fix it so that it doesn't turn good, law abiding people into criminals. As written, this bill is a sloppy disaster that could ensnare just about anyone. It is vague, it is ambiguous, and it is dangerous. If it becomes law, it needs to do so with, at the very least, clear language that defines "transfer" as a permanent disposition of the firearm, because right now the language includes temporary transfers and is VERY murky about which ones would be OK and which would be an offense, and it would largely end up being decided in the courtroom during a trial.

Justin
February 13, 2013, 01:38 AM
In the end, they amended the magazine capacity limit to 15 rounds for rifles and pistols, and 8 rounds for shotguns. There was also some debate about fixed tubular magazines for rimfire guns, but I missed most of that part of the broadcast.

In the end, the law passed 7-4 along party lines.

I'm not nearly as well-versed in the state legislature, so what's the next step? Does this get voted on by yet another committee, or does it go straight to a vote in the house and senate?

.455_Hunter
February 13, 2013, 01:43 AM
This is not over folks!

There are still many more steps before this becomes law.

Don't give up just because the bills passed a hand selected committee with a majority of anti-gun members.

We need to fight at all levels- Full House, Senate and the Governor.

MachIVshooter
February 13, 2013, 01:55 AM
I'm not nearly as well-versed in the state legislature, so what's the next step? Does this get voted on by yet another committee, or does it go straight to a vote in the house and senate?

Now it goes to appropriations, and if it gets through that, then a house floor vote. If it gets out of the house, then it starts all over again in the senate, same process.

Some in a position to know think the governor is unlikely to sign the mag limit bill. I think he will, but I've been surprised before.

We probably largely owe the amendment to the testimony of the sheriffs and to a man (forgive me, I don't recall his name) who was the victim of a violent attack by three armed actors. He was shot five times, and discharged 13 rounds defending himself. He made it clear in his testimony that a reduced capacity magazine may have cost him his life.

I, of course, adamantly oppose any restrictions, but if the bill becomes law, 15 rounds versus 10 is a small victory for our efforts today.

mrvco
February 13, 2013, 02:02 AM
I'm glad to hear there was a strong turnout and no shortage of articulate speakers opposing these absurd laws.

MBaneACP
February 13, 2013, 03:11 AM
What a miserable day! My and my Sweetie's sense is that in the end they bumped up from 10 to 15 rounds because they're desperately afraid of a Constitutional challenge...which will happen!

With the great group of speakers, including the Colorado Sheriffs, I was honored to get in my 2-minutes worth.

My general take is that this is all MAIG...MAIG "experts," MAIG script.

It ain't over, but it's been a crappy day...

Michael B

carpboy
February 13, 2013, 03:41 AM
I, of course, adamantly oppose any restrictions, but if the bill becomes law, 15 rounds versus 10 is a small victory for our efforts today.So,if this this bill passes,in Colo I could buy a new Glock22 or Glock19 with standard 15rnd mags but I would be prohibited from buying a new Glock17 with a standard 17rnd mag.Sounds like a clear violation af the"Common Use"standard.

coloradokevin
February 13, 2013, 05:30 AM
Although I know most of us prefer 15 rounds to 10 rounds, I'd caution any of you against calling this a victory. It would be like NY state residents calling 10 rounds a victory since they are currently at 7. The point, of course, is that this kind of arbitrary and pointless legislation causes an unreasonable burden upon our 2nd Amendment rights, period.

Guns come in many different types and varieties. Some of my guns were made to take stock magazines that hold 30 rounds, some were made to take 3-4. In the guns I have that could be reasonably seen as home defense weapons, mine take: 5, 9, 10, 14, 15, 17, and 30 rounds, respectively. So, any given arbitrary number is likely to impact someone in a negative manner, while providing nothing in the way of safety for our citizens.

By increasing the legislated number of rounds to 15 from 10, the legislature is obviously attempting to appease us so that this measure can carry without much further opposition. I'm sure that each of you can see the problem with that!

Again, i know most of you prefer no magazine capacity restriction, I guess I just really want to emphasize that 15 rounds is not a small victory, it's a loss... just a marginally smaller loss. If that bill carried to law as is, I'd no longer be able to buy standard capacity magazines for a couple of our handguns, and a couple of our rifles.

HorseSoldier
February 13, 2013, 05:41 AM
By increasing the legislated number of rounds to 15 from 10, the legislature is obviously attempting to appease us so that this measure can carry without much further opposition. I'm sure that each of you can see the problem with that!

The problem is with elected leaders who are so oblivious to the world around them that they think "conceding" on five rounds will make any difference to the people arrayed against them.

Rom828
February 13, 2013, 12:42 PM
The problem here is that what we are trying to do is to influence Democrats to break from their party line. My feelings of doom that all this will pass is motivating me more. Colorado is destined to the same fate as other states due to the rural area populace being outnumbered by the urban, who within the last decade have arrived here in droves to escape the cesspools created by the politicians they voted in. We need the politicians to feel that their future in public office will be limited by backing this legislation. I want to thank a good friend of mine who testified yesterday, Chuck Robles. He is the one who would not be alive today had the standard magazine in his pistol contained only ten rounds.

CoRoMo
February 13, 2013, 12:48 PM
This is ridiculous.

If they truly believe that banning 10+ round magazines will save lives, they should ban them. If there was even a microscopic shred of evidence that could prove banning 10+ magazines saved lives, I WOULD SUPPORT BANNING THEM. But there isn't.

This concession to 15 rounds illustrates that this isn't about public safety, otherwise if it were they would die on that hill; they would stand their ground on 10-round capacity for the sake of the lives that would be saved.

But they offer up another five rounds? What the heck?!!? In the quiet of their heart, they know that they are not doing this for public safety. They are doing this for public control. They simply don't believe the American Citizen should be allowed to keep and bear certain objects. They are despicable, evil fascists bent on disarming the populace.

mrvco
February 13, 2013, 01:49 PM
If I get pulled over and my vehicle is searched on the way to or from the range, how do I prove that my current mags are pre-ban? I don't see a serial# or mfg date on any of them.

What keeps me from driving to Wyoming and buying a bunch of mags with a capacity of greater than 15 rounds and claiming that they were purchased with cash prior to the ban?

Will the State of Colorado be searching all packages delivered to me by Fedex and UPS from states with no mag ban?

longknife12
February 13, 2013, 01:59 PM
Folks, logic is not in the vocabulary of the capitol critters! Several of us have met with the Dems.....most have NO idea as to existing laws and what they are voting on!!We have to continue to hammer and hope somewhere in the process a light will come on.
Dan
:eek:

Jitterbug
February 13, 2013, 02:21 PM
I couldn't make it to the Capitol yesterday but was able to watch most of the hearing on the background checks online...I was appalled at the lack of honesty and integrity of those supporting this bill.

Yep, what we have have is the ultra liberal elite from the Boulder/Denver metroplex ruining this great state.

I don't know if it would be helpful to contact the more reasonable Democrats in more rural areas. However I'd like to think the Governor who is up for re-election in 2014 is listening?

I wrote my state reps and the Governor this morning, after writing my national senators regarding senator Feinstiein's atrocity.

Godsgunman
February 13, 2013, 04:00 PM
Wow this is a real downer. I love Colorado and have always dreamed of moving there and have other family there. Looks like I'll have to rethink my plan. Keep fighting though also make known to your officials that they will be voted out next election period if they continue in this violation of rights. Also I know there are those who vote democratic for other reasons not pertaining to 2nd amendment rights. Its time to wake up and not be drawn in by the talk and rhetoric. They "talk" about other issues but they "act", even feverishly, when it comes to 2nd amendment and other Constitutional Rights. Lets wake up and protect our Right first then see if they actually act on anything else they say to get your vote.

HorseSoldier
February 13, 2013, 05:51 PM
If I get pulled over and my vehicle is searched on the way to or from the range, how do I prove that my current mags are pre-ban? I don't see a serial# or mfg date on any of them.

PMags have date of manufacture stamped on them. Not sure on other brands of updated mags.

Though from what has been said about Magpul's stand, I wouldn't be surprised if someone innocently forgot to reset the date stamp machine in the months after the bill hypothetically (and hopefully doesn't) go into effect as a law in Colorado. What with getting packed up for the move out of state and getting set up in Texas or where ever, someone must have just oopsed that one . . . ;)

avalys
February 13, 2013, 07:41 PM
The law says the burden of proof is on the prosecutor to prove you got the mags after the ban. So, in practice it will be very hard for them to enforce. It will affect law-abiding people while having no effect on criminals whatsoever.

Rom828
February 13, 2013, 09:05 PM
The Dems will settle for this until the next atrocity occurs, and then they will demand more. This truly is a slippery slope. Fight like hell now and lets all band together to defeat anything with a (D) next to it next election cycle. I heard some radio ads from Bloomberg's MAIG on locally, I really resent the out of state money coming in to fight against us.

MachIVshooter
February 13, 2013, 09:36 PM
So, in practice it will be very hard for them to enforce.

It will be nigh impossible to enforce, especially with the sheriffs flat out telling them that they don't have the resources to investigate and prosecute people over this law that the sheriffs don't support in the first place.

Today was the same mockery as yesterday. They have effectively disenfranchised our side (literally did yesterday by locking the doors). They don't care how ridiculous the bills are, how disconnected and obtuse the sponsor is (and the sponsor of the college campus carry ban really is that far out there), and they certainly don't care how many oppose or how valid our arguments are. They completely dismissed the county sheriffs of Colorado. Completely. Sheriff Smith challenged them that if they really want to do something that is effective in reducing violence, to work with law enforcement to find real solutions, to give LE the tools to actually detect and arrest the true criminals. He extended his hand to the judiciary committee, and they bit it.

I actually got to speak today, and though I am NOT a good public speaker, I do believe I delivered an impactful, if slightly disjointed, argument on behalf of my sister. I represented her because the campus carry ban will directly affect her as a CSU alumni, student and employee. She has a unique perspective, given that she is a member of academia, and also in our camp. Doctorate in microbiology (graduated cum laude), currently going for her second doctorate in veterinary medicine, an employee of Colorado/CSU as well as the federal government (CDC). She has also worked for a local gun store, is a CCW holder, an NRA certified pistol instructor, a hunter, recreational shooter, collector, and an instructor of unarmed self defense. When she's not busy with those things, she rides horses and sings in a local choir. To say she is a busy overachiever would be a gross understatement. After pointing that out, I went on to share her story of armed self defense that ended with no shots fired and no injuries to any party. Unfortunately, I lacked the time to elaborate on other salient points, such as the fact that she and I did not grow up in gun culture, but in fact in a very democrat anti-gun family (both sides), and made our decisions to be armed and supporters of freedom consciously and without influence. I also did not have time to point out that we are survivors of firearm homicide. Still, despite my argument and many other valid, logical, articulate and original testimonies from others, the committee voted party line and passed the bill out of committee 7-6.

After the last two days, I am thoroughly disenchanted with our broken system. You think the citizens have a voice in this? We don't. You think these legislators really have our best interests at heart? They don't. Doesn't mean I'm giving up, but I'm definitely feeling a bit despondent right now.

HorseSoldier
February 13, 2013, 11:20 PM
It will be nigh impossible to enforce, especially with the sheriffs flat out telling them that they don't have the resources to investigate and prosecute people over this law that the sheriffs don't support in the first place.


Though it sounds like they are setting the stage for Denver to fully embrace its apparent trajectory to become a 2nd Chicago, with a massive disconnect between them and the rest of the state.

MachIVshooter
February 14, 2013, 12:26 AM
Though it sounds like they are setting the stage for Denver to fully embrace its apparent trajectory to become a 2nd Chicago, with a massive disconnect between them and the rest of the state.

That massive disconnect has existed since well before my time. The only Coloradoans who like Denver are some of the residents. Most of us avoid it like the plague for numerous reasons. That city quite literally sucks the life out of me, and short of important ventures like this one, I keep away. When I do have to venture in for certain purposes, I try to limit my exposure to a time that will not allow the toxic aura to violate me.

mrvco
February 14, 2013, 01:00 AM
If "What's good for Denver is better for the state of Colorado"... then well, uggh.

I've dealt with a couple LGS's inside Denver city limits that still sell and/or transfer guns with 21+ round magazines. There is no example to date (as far as I've heard or been able to find via the Googles) of Denver ever pressing charges on anyone for possessing a magazine capable of holding "21 or more rounds".

And I think it is telling that James Holmes (the Aurora shooter) has yet to be charged with possessing (much less using) a magazine with a capacity in excess of 21 rounds (As best as I can tell Aurora's regs mimic those of Denver).

MachIVshooter
February 14, 2013, 01:35 AM
And I think it is telling that James Holmes (the Aurora shooter) has yet to be charged with possessing (much less using) a magazine with a capacity in excess of 21 rounds (As best as I can tell Aurora's regs mimic those of Denver).

Aurora's law is null and void

CRS 29-11.7-103. Regulation - type of firearm - prohibited.

A local government may not enact an ordinance, regulation, or other law that prohibits the sale, purchase, or possession of a firearm that a person may lawfully sell, purchase, or possess under state or federal law. Any such ordinance, regulation, or other law enacted by a local government prior to March 18, 2003, is void and unenforceable.

Language further down also covers the "implements".

Denver got home rule, since they were a city before CO got statehood. State still didn't allow them to prohibit CCW, though.

mrvco
February 14, 2013, 02:33 AM
...


Ah thanks... I had always heard that Aurora dup'd Denver's laws, but not the "they didn't get home rule" aspect.

MachIVshooter
February 14, 2013, 02:56 AM
Ah thanks... I had always heard that Aurora dup'd Denver's laws, but not the "they didn't get home rule" aspect.

Yeah, CO got statehood in 1876, Aurora became a city in 1891, founded by Donald Fletcher. Don't ask me how I remember that date and name from the 3rd grade, because I did not have to look it up. I also recall some important/influential lady named Billie something that we all met. She was rather old at that time in 1991. lol.

Zak Smith
February 14, 2013, 04:12 AM
I wrote this after getting home on Tuesday

Today was a hard day.

I was heartened by the overwhelming number of gun people that showed up, and showed up to testify. Even in the latter minutes of the comment periods, people were going over their notes so they could do their best job even though the chance of getting called at that point were very low. Overall, the pro-gun side made AWESOME points, with some real surprise testimony (to me anyway) from some hard-hitting "witnesses" -- Both logic/reason-wise and life experiences that I think gave everyone pause.

End result? They still voted on party lines. I thought somewhere along in there we had a chance to turn a democrat or two, but no go.

Remember, this is just the committee. We will have at least one more chance to defeat this bill, maybe more if it goes through more committees (not sure on this one, the UBC does go through another committee).

On my drive home, I was thinking a lot about how a government committee can proceed with such legislation in light of totally overwhelming public outcry against it. There are a lot of cynical and realistic explanations.

But we don't really have a choice-- we must oppose these bills with every capacity in power, be it grassroots, personal contact with reps, lobbyists, PUBLIC OPINION, whatever. It is too early to admit defeat. As someone else said, Colorado is the new ground zero and everyone in the USA who is pro-gun needs to join this fight here in Colorado. If we fall it's just a matter of time.

The left is very good at mobilizing its propaganda machine to get its political ends. We need to do that.

I don't know how but I'm willing to help out whatever "we" can figure out. I really hope there is someone political savvy somewhere who knows how to mount a campaign that can actually sway opinion so our "representatives" have no choice but to back off.

Just a few hints for next time: bring a bag lunch, and bring some water. The committee gets catered lunch and nobody who's on the list to testify wants to leave lest he be passed over.

coloradokevin
February 14, 2013, 05:51 AM
Despite the defeats we've endured in the past couple of days, I'd like to extend a sincere thanks to each of you who were able to make it down there to provide testimony! I was unable to attend due to work obligations, but I'm darn glad that so many people did make it to the event. At the very least, our politicians must be starting to realize that they may be treading on dangerous ground if they restrict our gun rights (they've paid at the polls in the past for such actions, and it can happen again).

MachIVshooter,

After reading your post in this thread I'm pretty sure I heard you testify during one of the short periods of time that my phone was actually able to stream the event at work. If you were the one I heard, I think you did a good job of making some valid points.

Just because some gun-grabbers voted against us today doesn't mean we're wrong!

CoRoMo
February 14, 2013, 11:19 AM
I had a crazy thought a couple nights ago.

Who do we have that we can look forward to as the next Governor?

How about Sheriff Smith?

Jitterbug
February 14, 2013, 11:51 AM
I didn’t make it to the Capitol but I did watch online and I was shocked and appalled at the inaccuracies and emotionalism involved in lawmaking. Even though it was a highly educational civics lesson, I found it disheartening and sickening.

“To retain respect for sausages and laws, one must not watch them in the making.'"

2 out of 3 of my Colorado state representatives, including the Governor are Democrats, so I'm sure my letters to them asking them to support my 2nd Amendment rights are falling on deaf ears...yet I'll continue to keep writing.

This recent debacle is the straw that has broken the camels back for me and mine, as well as many friends and co-workers.

Despite a heavy personal workload I now intend to become much more politically involved, starting now. I escaped the liberal paradise of Massachusetts over 40 years ago and I have a deep resentment for the liberal agenda I now see taking over Colorado.

Recently I was thinking of my one Republican legislator and how she is protecting my rights. I think now is the time to contact her and let her know I've got her back and that me and my family intend to support her financially and in any other way we can. I also intend to contact the Republican Party headquarters and let them know I want to start the 2014 election cycle now and ask what I can do to help and support them.

There are more then a few Democrats in my current circle as I’m sure there is in each of our lives…if we each commit to turn even just 2 Democrats between now and the next election cycle, we should be able to remove the current stranglehold these tyrants have over us at the moment.

In order to defeat Hickenlooper in the next cycle we need to find a Marc Rubio or Ted Cruz here in Colorado to take the lead as Governor, we need a strong Hispanic vote.

Bottom line is if we are to remain a strong and free state we need to clean house the next election cycle…from top to bottom.

Ryanxia
February 14, 2013, 11:54 AM
Keep up the good fight guys. We in other states that have never had to worry much before on the state level are fighting our own battles.

MachIVshooter
February 14, 2013, 12:00 PM
MachIVshooter,

After reading your post in this thread I'm pretty sure I heard you testify during one of the short periods of time that my phone was actually able to stream the event at work. If you were the one I heard, I think you did a good job of making some valid points.

I was the very last testimony on the college campus carry bill, and I was startled to be called. If one hears me speak publicly, I believe two things are evident: 1) I'm fairly intelligent and 2) I'm woefully inexperienced. I get tunnel vision and other adrenaline related physiological markers.

I hope I did my sister proud, even though it made no difference in the vote.

IlikeSA
February 14, 2013, 01:03 PM
I sent this to some of the representatives and Denver newspapers and news channels. Whether or not this makes a difference, I don't know. If it were published, I hope that it will help sway voters and legislators. Thoughts?



The new gun control laws proposed by Democrats are racist and prejudiced in application, if not intention, for those who know the history of gun control. Gun control was originally intended as a way to control African-American's during the Reconstruction era and afterwards in the South, and it was very effective. These restrictive gun laws certainly influenced Republicans in their efforts to ratify the 14th amendment to protect equal rights between Americans, regardless of ethnicity.

The new laws proposed by Colorado Democrats include a universal background check, elimination of private sales, magazine capacity limitations, additional fees for the necessary background check, and the elimination of the rights of students to be armed while on campus. Of these, the racist laws are the elimination of private sales, the fees for the background check, additional training requirements for concealed carry, and the universal background check. Please bear with me while I explain how these abridge the rights of minorities and those of the lower economic class.

Suppose that you are a Coloradan who depends on mass transit, as you do not own a car. You desire a firearm to protect your house and home, as assured by the Colorado Constitution, which states:

The right of no person to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property, or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall be called in question; but nothing herein contained shall be construed to justify the practice of carrying concealed weapons.

You decide to follow the law and purchase a firearm from a Federal Firearms Licensee at a gun store, because the law will no longer permit private sales and you are law abiding. You get there to purchase the firearm, and are informed that, in addition to the purchase price of the pistol (say three hundred dollars), you have to pay a background check fee of ten dollars. You also have to pay an FFL fee of fifty dollars to transfer the pistol. You also must pay the sales tax, which in Denver is 7.62%, for a total of $22.86. In total, you have spent $382.86 just purchasing the firearm.

You purchase it, then decide to go home. Riding the RTD is the only option you can afford, but you find that no weapons are allowed on mass transit. However, according to RTD spokesman Scott Reed, “It is a felony to carry weapons aboard public transportation, unless the passenger is a law enforcement officer or has a valid concealed carry permit.”

In order to get a concealed carry permit, you must go through several steps: in-person training with the firearm, another background check, and a fee of $152.50. The training with the firearm costs approximately one hundred dollars, but you have to get there with your firearm, which is not allowed on RTD. In addition, you must make an appointment with the Denver Police Department, which accept applications between the hours of 10:00 a.m. And 2:00 p.m. on Tuesday, Wednesday, andThursday.

By law, the permit process must be completed before ninety days, and usually takes the entire ninety days. If you are keeping up with the total money spent, you have spent $635.36 simply to purchase the firearm and get the necessary documentation to carry the firearm on the bus to your house. You still are unable to take the firearm home today because you have to wait approximately 90 days to get the permit. You are unable to get the license before you purchase the firearm because you must have the training with the firearm. In addition, you would not have a way to get the firearm and yourself to the training class.

I hope that my readers now see how the new legislation, and even some of the older regulations, are prejudiced against people of lower socio-economic class and racist against minorities. In this case, all of the fees and taxes becomes a burden to someone who is living on SNAP assistance and makes approximately $20000.00 per year. The total cost to someone who makes twenty thousand dollars a year is approximately two weeks' pay.

Democrats wish to effectively price and regulate the lower class out of their rights, as defined by the Colorado Constitution and the U.S. Constitution. Imagine if this were the first amendment, or the 15th amendment to the U.S. Constitution. Oh wait, the Democrats during the 1880's had a poll tax, and in some cases, literacy testing to determine eligibility to vote. As we can now see, Colorado Democrats want to continue to exercise control and the stripping of rights from minorities and the lower socio-economic class, whether they be African American, Hispanic, or Asian.

Njal Thorgeirsson
February 14, 2013, 01:23 PM
As a Colorado resident, this greatly concerns me.

Does anyone happen to know what the laws would be regarding out-of-state purchases of larger magazines should the mag restriction pass? Could I go to Wyoming and purchase magazines to bring them back to Colorado [for personal use]? If not, then how could this [or person-to-person transfer of magazines] possibly be enforced???

lefteye
February 14, 2013, 01:42 PM
IlikeSA - Excellent letter. :mad: @ the Denver D's.

mrvco
February 14, 2013, 02:00 PM
As a Colorado resident, this greatly concerns me.

Does anyone happen to know what the laws would be regarding out-of-state purchases of larger magazines should the mag restriction pass? Could I go to Wyoming and purchase magazines to bring them back to Colorado [for personal use]? If not, then how could this [or person-to-person transfer of magazines] possibly be enforced???

I have quite a few magazines that show no mfg date code or serial number, so I am rather concerned about how the Colorado Mag Ban could and would be enforced (especially in Denver, since I have to drive through Denver to get to my normal range)

To legally possess a "pre-ban" mag, you must maintain "continuous possession" of said magazine that you owned "on the effective date" of the legislation becoming effective.

State Senator Giron (D) responded to my question on the topic saying that the "burden of proof is on the prosecution" (which is of course stated in HB 1224), however she did not and has yet to answer the question of whether my magazines and/or guns could or would be confiscated and held during said investigation.

That of course ignores that fact that I still have absolutely no way to prove whether I purchased them pre-ban and whether I have actually maintained continuous possession of them since then... i.e. It is simply my word against their word.

CoRoMo
February 14, 2013, 02:07 PM
Does anyone happen to know what the laws would be regarding out-of-state purchases of larger magazines should the mag restriction pass?
It would be illegal to obtain a "high capacity" magazine after the date of this law's enactment.
Could I go to Wyoming and purchase magazines to bring them back to Colorado [for personal use]?
Doing so after this becomes law would be a crime.

The next mass shooting in Colorado might actually be carried out by someone who does just that. They could drive up to Cheyenne and buy some 30rd mags and commit their evil. They won't necessarily be charged with breaking the mag law, just the murders and the legislature would then draft legislation to increase the penalty for violating the mag law and they'd seek to reduce the mag capacity even further. As if it would then stop subsequent mass shootings. This was the crux of my letters to the state legislators that I emailed.
If not, then how could this [or person-to-person transfer of magazines] possibly be enforced???
If you are caught with a newly acquired magazine or if you are caught in the transaction of prohibited magazines, you would be arrested and prosecuted.

IlikeSA
February 14, 2013, 02:12 PM
What if we as gun owners were to set up an LLC and collectively own weapons and magazines? Since we would collectively own all weapons as co-owners of the LLC, could we circumvent the background check requirement and magazine ban? I have some more ideas, but would want to run it by a Colorado lawyer versed in corporate law. Is there one here I can PM with?

Steel Horse Rider
February 14, 2013, 02:17 PM
It is already illegal to drive to Wyoming to buy fireworks but it happens all of the time. They completely overlook the fact that the Aurora theater shooter's "large capacity magazine" caused a jamb which likely saved some lives.......

MachIVshooter
February 14, 2013, 02:24 PM
NEXT ROUND OF HEARINGS ARE TOMORROW

Anyone who can attend, please do. There will be no public testimony this time, but we still have to show our opposition.

Unfortunately, I cannot make this one. I'm already double booked and backed up from attending the last two, and I absolutely cannot put my customers off again. So I would ask others who may be able to take a Friday off to represent me and anyone else who can't be there.

IlikeSA
February 14, 2013, 03:56 PM
Update: http://kdvr.com/2013/02/14/house-gun-debate-friday-could-stretch-into-saturday/

coloradokevin
February 15, 2013, 06:25 AM
For anyone who missed it today (and it was easy enough to miss), apparently they're still jamming these new laws through at full speed. The latest info from the NRA says:

FULL HOUSE FLOOR VOTE TOMORROW, FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 15TH, 2013

So, basically from bill introduction, through committee, to a full vote in exactly a week.

http://www.nraila.org/legislation/state-legislation/2013/2/colorado-in-the-face-of-overwhelming-opposition,-anti-gun-legislators-move-forward-to-steal-away-your-rights.aspx

Njal Thorgeirsson
February 15, 2013, 10:48 AM
I'm not really all that familiar with political processes like this. Can someone please enlighten me as to what steps the bills still have to go through before they become state laws?

Robert
February 15, 2013, 10:58 AM
Basically they vote on the bill, if it passes and I figure it will, and the governor signs it. Done.

MErl
February 15, 2013, 11:25 AM
it'll have to bounce through the senate for a rubber stamp first.

MachIVshooter
February 15, 2013, 11:30 AM
Basically they vote on the bill, if it passes and I figure it will, and the governor signs it. Done.

These are house bills; they still have to go through the senate.

They most likely will pass through the senate, which is why it's critical that we keep pressure on the governor. Hickenlooper is a democrat, but he's also not a stupid man. He's very astute, he knows that were traditionally a conservative state, and he knows that the race for governor would have been very contentious if the republican vote hadn't been split last time; many republicans just didn't bother to vote at all because they knew we had no chance.

It is my opinion that he's likely to sign the UBC bill, but I'm not so sure he's ready to incur the wrath of signing the mag ban and the college campus carry ban.

As for the one that requires you to pay for your background check, I think that if signed into law, it will be nullified as unconstitutional. We don't get to charge a fee for exercising the 1st amendment or the right to vote. We aren't required to pay $10 for 4th amendment protection; That'd be extortion.

almostfree
February 15, 2013, 11:48 AM
Why doesn't Colorado use NICS and avoid state expenditure?

Steel Horse Rider
February 15, 2013, 11:53 AM
Colorado was formerly an independent type of state that held its distance from federal involvement but with the advent of the "Gang of Four", the four multimillionaires that fund Democrat activities in Colorado, we have swerved hard left towards nanny state policies.

CoRoMo
February 15, 2013, 12:14 PM
...to pay for your background check, I think that if signed into law, it will be nullified as unconstitutional.
I can't help but to doubt that. We already have to pay a fee to bear arms right here in Colorado. Illinois requires a FOID card to keep arms and there is a fee associated with getting the card. New Jersey requires a Firearms ID card and getting one costs money and many month's wait. Californians have to pay a few different fees when they buy a firearm that add up to $25 a pop.

http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs#13

How much is the Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) fee?

The State's DROS fee is $19.00 which covers the costs of the background checks and transfer registry. There is also a required $1.00 Firearms Safety Testing fee and a $5.00 Safety and Enforcement fee. If the transaction being processed is a dealer sale, consignment return, or return from pawn, the dealer may impose other charges as long as this amount is clearly shown as a "dealer fee" and not misrepresented as a state fee. In the event of a private party transfer, the firearms dealer may additionally charge a fee of $10 per firearm transferred.

When settling on the purchase price of a firearm and before completing the transaction, you may want to ask the dealer to disclose and identify any and all fees he/she is charging to complete the transaction.

PC Sections 12076, 12082, and 12806)

It's certainly extortion, but it's long been established and probably isn't going anywhere. We would simply become California #2.

MachIVshooter
February 15, 2013, 12:14 PM
Why doesn't Colorado use NICS and avoid state expenditure?

Because CBI lobbies hard to justify their budget. They're no different from any other agency.

I can't stand CBI. Instead of denial on conviction, they have a policy of denial on arrest; If they don't have a disposition for you case, you will be denied until you prove that charges were dropped, you were acquitted, etc. I got denied in 2002 when they revamped their records, took about 3 months to get it squared away with trips to the court house, etc. This was an arrest and felony charge at 15 that was a deferred adjudication. At the time of denial I was 20, and I had already bought about a dozen guns through FFLs since turning 18.

They had over 7,600 denials last year. A little over half were appealed, and more than half of those appeals resulted in a reversal.

razorback2003
February 15, 2013, 03:53 PM
I thought Colorado was a wide open western state with independent minded people. I'm glad I didn't relocate there if this is what is happening to it.

Jitterbug
February 15, 2013, 03:54 PM
We've been overrun by liberals.

milehighjc
February 15, 2013, 03:56 PM
for anyone interested, the Denver Post is running a livestream of the house floor debate right now regarding the mag size limit.

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_22598247/colorado-house-opens-debate-ban-high-capacity-ammo

Its seemingly clear that this has become fait accompli

Jitterbug
February 15, 2013, 04:00 PM
I don't know...I just saw Rep. Vigil a D, suggest a no vote. My understanding is if we have 4 more D's vote no it will die...in which case we may have some hope. We do have some, more reasonable, old style D's like Vigil in more rural parts of the state...we'll see.

MachIVshooter
February 15, 2013, 04:06 PM
I thought Colorado was a wide open western state with independent minded people. I'm glad I didn't relocate there if this is what is happening to it.

It was, and I think to a large extent, it still is. Most voters in this state are independent. There are a lot of people who will vote either way, depending on what issues they feel are most important. Few felt that 2nd amendment rights were at risk, so many of these independents voted democrat the last couple of rounds on account of social issues.

I personally feel that whether any of this legislation passes or not, this state will trend right in the next elections. Hickenlooper has a re-election bid in 2014, and his political future in this state will be uncertain if these bills hit his desk and he signs them.

Despite the crap that's going on here, there is a strong gun culture in Colorado. I personally know a staggering number of independents and democrats that will not again vote for any legislator who supports these bills. Vigil is a perfect example of a Democrat who understands the difference between a Colorado democrat or left leaning independent and a New York liberal. He is representing his constituents, doing the job he was elected to do. He will see re-election.

Doc7
February 15, 2013, 04:27 PM
This woman speaking now is driving me crazy. She is openly advocating that a "feeling of safety" is all that matters and not whether or not the bill will actually make people safer.

Jitterbug
February 15, 2013, 04:28 PM
I can't believe she was elected in Jeffco

milehighjc
February 15, 2013, 04:42 PM
I don't know...I just saw Rep. Vigil a D, suggest a no vote. My understanding is if we have 4 more D's vote no it will die...in which case we may have some hope. We do have some, more reasonable, old style D's like Vigil in more rural parts of the state...we'll see.

Made me go look it up... the current house balance is 37 Democrats, 29 Republicans. Assuming all Republicans vote no (not a certainty I would guess), then 4 Dems would have to break rank and vote no to bring it to a 33 33 tie.

The senate is 20 (D) to 15 (R). Hickenlooper is already on record as supporting the 15 round limit.

IMHO, this is a done deal if it get past the house, and I think its a long shot to get enough NO votes to stop it.

Im really curious about how the population breaks down... if the Dems ram this through, then there may be some seats that switch back in the next election.

Im obviously biased, but the "no" arguments seem based in facts, and logic, the "yes" arguments seem to be mostly feelings and emotion. Not surprising, but its interesting to listen first hand to this.

MachIVshooter
February 15, 2013, 04:43 PM
Jared Wright talking now. He is a very strong ally, and a very intelligent, articulate speaker with valuable credentials in this debate.

Jitterbug
February 15, 2013, 04:44 PM
It certainly is, quiet a civics lesson.

Jitterbug
February 15, 2013, 04:45 PM
Jared was excellent! We need more like him.

milehighjc
February 15, 2013, 04:45 PM
Very well spoken, not emotional. I find the stats on jobs leaving CO to be interesting. The rest of the house should be listening VERY carefully.

Dr.Rob
February 15, 2013, 05:04 PM
Everett (R) from Littleton (including Columbine) gave a very good NO argument.

Caroll Murphy (R) Castle Rock pointing out this effectively dis-arms private security, interferes with collectors, potentially school resource officers. (she is rambling a bit)

Dr.Rob
February 15, 2013, 05:08 PM
Scott (R) Grand Junction: Violence is the problem, not any one item. Laws in an of themselves can't change the way people think. Said throw out all four of these proposals.

Dr.Rob
February 15, 2013, 05:16 PM
Mark Foote (D) Lafayette: markedly FOR the ban on magazines. Citing Heller suggesting there are limits within.

Humphery (R) Severence AGAINST.

Ferradino (D) Denver just admitted the magazine ban will NOT do anything to stop gun violence, but he's still for it.

Doc7
February 15, 2013, 05:19 PM
Ferrandino actually stated that he "rises in strong support of it", not just for it.

I'm an NJ resident watching with horror as the same show that unfolded on Wednesday in NJ happens to you folks. These people are voting for a bill while openly admitting that it will not save lives or do anything to impact criminals.

Dr.Rob
February 15, 2013, 05:20 PM
Fields (D) claims she has 62% support to magazine limits. Points out it's 'just a start' to comprehensive gun reform. (She's the sponsor)

Also just claimed she had the support of Sherrif's Assn?

MachIVshooter
February 15, 2013, 05:22 PM
Fields just flat-out LIED. She DOES NOT have the support of the sheriff's association. CSOC opposes all of these bills.

http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site36/2013/0129/20130129_113251_GunControlLegislation.pdf

Doc7
February 15, 2013, 05:22 PM
Rhonda Fields just flat out lied, NJ has NOT yet put into law a 10 round limit.

(Edit: Jinx!)

MachIVshooter
February 15, 2013, 05:45 PM
Good job, Rep. Nordberg, and thank you, Alfred manufacturing.

CoRoMo
February 15, 2013, 05:52 PM
It's like we're in the Twilight Zone; they just ignore the hundreds of jobs that will be affected by this piece of legislation, they openly admit that this bill is not a solution to any problem, yet they march on.

milehighjc
February 15, 2013, 05:57 PM
Well stated Rep Waller. Those voting for this bill are gambling the jobs of hundreds of Coloradans on the GUESS that this will improve safety.

MachIVshooter
February 15, 2013, 06:02 PM
Oh, goody. Let's hope the senate and Hickenlooper value those jobs of Colorado residents more than house democrats do.

milehighjc
February 15, 2013, 06:02 PM
Passed. Not good.

Dr.Rob
February 15, 2013, 06:03 PM
Great day to be a Coloradoan. NOT. HB1224 will sail through the senate.

Have to hope the Colorado Supreme Court says HELL NO.

Gordon_Freeman
February 15, 2013, 06:07 PM
I have been snowboarding in Colorado a few times. I was thinking about buying a condo on a ski slope in Breckenridge. Now I'll have to look at Utah instead. I don't even want to visit Colorado after this new legislation gets passed.

MachIVshooter
February 15, 2013, 06:08 PM
Don't even need to listen to 1229 again. It's going through.

CoRoMo
February 15, 2013, 06:11 PM
Fields is a dingbat, a fascist.

leadcounsel
February 15, 2013, 06:15 PM
I emailed all of the reps. Feel free to copy and paste or use any parts of my letter:

I am writing to urge you to continue to uphold your oath of office, and protect the 2nd Amendment from more gun control, and protect jobs in Colorado:

" I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic..."

I am sure you are under considerable pressure at this time to pass legislation, in the name of public safety, to prohibit, regulate, or otherwise control firearms and magazines. I understand the point of view of those that support "gun control.” However, gun control is factually the wrong answer. Just like the other attempts to control things, like the war on drugs, it simply doesn’t work. Criminals can get drugs, guns, and many other illegal items. What gun control does do is to punish law abiding citizens and take guns out of our hands, and erode our rights by slowly and deliberately disarming us, one step at a time. This scenario has played over, time and again, worldwide. The rights protected by the Constitution should be held above, and protected from, the temporary whim of public opinion.

And additional gun control such as a magazine ban will drive Magpul and thousands of jobs out of the state, harming the econmony.

A careful examination of statistical data shows that Armed Response, from security professionals, police, or armed citizens, is an effective deterrent and defense against violent criminals. My right and responsibility as an armed citizen makes me an asset to my family, and to the community. Armed Citizens can and do prevent mass shootings from occurring and escalating:

• A 1997 high school shooting in Pearl, Miss., was halted by the school's vice principal after he retrieved the Colt .45 he kept in his truck.



• A 1998 middle school shooting ended when a man living next door heard gunfire and apprehended the shooter with his shotgun.

• A 2002 terrorist attack at an Israeli school was quickly stopped by an armed teacher and a school guard.



• A 2002 law school shooting in Grundy, Va., came to an abrupt conclusion when students carrying firearms confronted the shooter.

• A 2007 mall shooting in Ogden, Utah, ended when an armed off-duty police officer intervened.



• A 2009 workplace shooting in Houston, Texas, was halted by two coworkers who carried concealed handguns.

• A 2012 church shooting in Aurora, Colo., was stopped by a member of the congregation carrying a gun.



• At the recent mall shooting in Portland, Ore., the gunman took his own life minutes after being confronted by a shopper carrying a concealed weapon.

Knee jerk calls for gun control are never the answer. The 2nd Amendment is too important to be whimsically castrated.



I appreciate your time, and hope that you will continue to support and defend the Constitution that you have sworn to uphold.

Thank you for your service,

MachIVshooter
February 15, 2013, 06:16 PM
If 1224 becomes law, we need to talk to our sheriffs that opposed it about making all of us volunteer reserve deputies. The bill is unenforceable anyway, so let's just gut it completely.

CoRoMo
February 15, 2013, 06:16 PM
I have been snowboarding in Colorado a few times. I was thinking about buying a condo on a ski slope in Breckenridge. Now I'll have to look at Utah instead. I don't even want to visit Colorado after this new legislation gets passed.

I wish guys like you would contact our Governor and tell him the very thing you just posted here: http://www.colorado.gov/govhdir/requests/opinion-leg.html

mokin
February 15, 2013, 06:37 PM
Yep. Kind of like watching the so called "Crime Bill" get voted on back on '94. Lots of debate, most of it seemed to point to a bad idea, but the votes just kept coming. Then surreal disbelief that it had passed. Let's hope we can get things corrected before this coming impact becomes permanent harm.

Like the new location CoRoMo.

Doc7
February 15, 2013, 06:42 PM
I like this DelGrosso guy.

razorback2003
February 15, 2013, 06:49 PM
This is pretty bad when a western state like Colorado with open carry passes this sort of bill in the state house.

Laws based on emotion just do not work.

MachIVshooter
February 15, 2013, 06:50 PM
Like move to a gun-friendly state, and quite sending your tax dollars to tyrants and morons!

Because these things aren't even laws yet. Because my whole life is here. Because I would be totally upside-down on the sale of my house. Because moving my business would require starting over with a whole new clientele. And because we're not that far gone yet.

This stuff is REALLY bad news for Colorado, but even if it becomes law, I'm not ready to jump ship until at least a couple more election seasons prove that we're not turning around.

I'm a native, and there are a lot of reasons I love this state. The fact that we have always been firearms friendly was a big bonus. And out here in my rural county, the attitude hasn't changed. Our sheriff was one of those who spoke in opposition, and he has written his own letter in addition to being on board with CSOC.

Even if these things become law, they are virtually unenforceable, and enforcement would fall primarily on sheriffs who do not agree with the law in the first place. These sheriffs are not going to waste resources trying to prove that a magazine was bought after the effective date unless the person is arrested for some other reason and it's all they can get on him (or her). So, at most, these laws would amount to pile-on charges. I suspect that even if it becomes law, cases of prosecution will be very scarce. To my knowledge, even Denver hasn't prosecuted anyone on a violation of their mag capacity restriction alone. And that's Denver, not a rural county with a pro-gun sheriff and DA.

Zak Smith
February 15, 2013, 06:52 PM
I would also just point out that if we really think these proposed laws are unconstitutional, then we will have a round of court - hopefully USSC - cases.

longknife12
February 15, 2013, 07:19 PM
The opprortunists have listened to no one on this stuff...facts are moot.
The capitol critters had their minds set ahead of all our efforts. Sad, but courts look like the only resort!
Dan

buckeye8
February 15, 2013, 07:25 PM
Did these laws pass today?

almostfree
February 15, 2013, 07:31 PM
If this bill is signed into law, would magazines not presently in the state but manufactured before the data of enactment be legal to bring into Colorado?

EDIT: After reading the text of the bill, it looks like it would be legal to bring them into the state if you already owned them prior to enactment, unless the amendments today say something different. I suppose that means it would be illegal for someone relocating to Colorado to bring in magazines that they purchased after enactment, even though it was legal to do so when they purchased them. Unless all magazine manufacturers across the country start putting dates on them for some reason, talk about completely unenforceable.

mrvco
February 15, 2013, 08:00 PM
As long as your mags don't have date codes or if they do, pre-date the ban, then you'd have to be seriously on the wrong side of a LEO to get prosecuted for the mag ban... and that's the problem.

phonesysphonesys
February 15, 2013, 08:13 PM
I was there this morning. I had to leave when they broke for lunch. I saw the vote on the amendment. The Democrats have their minds set and no argument will change their minds. They are dead set on this. I hope alot of them draw unemployment after the next election. I was dissapointed plus I got a parking ticket for my troubles.
Semper Fi

mrvco
February 15, 2013, 08:24 PM
OH FFS...

I just received this response from Democrat Cherylin Peniston to my question about how Colorado LEO's were going to enforce this Mag Ban when I own magazines with no serial number or mfg date on them:

Michael, the bill requires that all new magazines have a serial number starting from the date that the bill becomes law. Law enforcement will know which serial numbers are pre-bill and which are post bill. Any magazines that have no serial numbers will be pre-bill.
Hope that helps, Cherylin


My reply which I'm sure she will ignore:

Actually that makes it even more confusing....

Are you seriously saying that Colorado is going to require that manufacturers in other states include serial numbers on 15+ round magazines that they can't sell in Colorado to begin with?

I think you all need to Check Your Premises.

MachIVshooter
February 15, 2013, 08:44 PM
^^^^^^^^^

This is why it will be completely unenforceable. Unless you're dumb enough to have the receipt showing post-ban purchase along with the mag, there will be no way to prove that you violated the law.

Basically, the ONLY thing this will do is prevent shipping into the state 16+ round magazines after the effective date. So instead of clicking a few buttons and waiting for the package to show up, someone who wants standard capacity G17 or AR mags will have to get in their car and drive across our border to ANY of the neighboring states. Colorado cannot enforce this law out of the state, so I seriously doubt sellers in neighboring states will have a problem selling to CO residents (who checks ID for mags anyway?). This, of course, is assuming they can't find one for sale here, which they most likely will.

Same thing goes for the UBCs. How do you prove that a background check wasn't done? There is no requirement for the seller to document which FFL performed a transfer, and there is no way to prove the transfer happened post-effective date, unless it is a firearm that was distributed after that date. Even then, LEO's in the field don't have access to that information, so they'd have to go through a complete trace process from origin to disposition. Methinks ATF is unlikely to perform such traces anyway, and detaining a person or wrongfully seizing their property when the trace came back to show that no unlawful transfer happened will quickly bankrupt the agencies with lawsuits. As such, I think it's highly unlikely that the LEO/LEA is going to even try.

So, once again, both of these bills, if signed into law, will be completely unenforceable without registration. Is registration a possibility in the future? Maybe, but they're going to be lambasted for hypocrisy if they go for it. ALL of these grabbers have made a point of "this is not gun registration". I may be wrong, but I think quite a few of the democrats will be turncoats when it comes to registration.

razorback2003
February 15, 2013, 08:52 PM
What is the penalty for having a mag over 15 rounds if this stupid bill becomes law?

MachIVshooter
February 15, 2013, 08:58 PM
What is the penalty for having a mag over 15 rounds if this stupid bill becomes law?

Well, they're grandfathering pre-ban, so IF they could prove that the mag was acquired post ban, it's a class II misdemeanor. But again, unless it's a date stamped mag or you foolishly keep the receipt of purchase, there is no way to prove you violated the law.

almostfree
February 15, 2013, 08:59 PM
Class 2 misdemeanor

razorback2003
February 15, 2013, 09:01 PM
At least it isn't a felony. That dumb NY law i believe is a felony for having mags over 7 rounds.

Skylerbone
February 15, 2013, 09:04 PM
In effect, the restriction would only pertain to those made in Colorado. I applaud Magpul for standing up and speaking up but I truly wish they would have taken the hard line just as liberals do and state in no uncertain terms that passage of any of the currently proposed bills would result in their leaving Colorado permanently.

I am dumbfounded by the lack of support from others in the industry who might have contributed with bans of their products to LE Agencies within the State, holding them to equal footing with the Citizens they serve or perhaps an outright denial.

For those who believe picking up and moving from what was a strong 2A State is the sane answer consider the swift germination cycle of liberals, especially in urban areas. Eventually there would be nowhere left to hide. Hiding is not a solution. My prayers are with all the residents of Colorado that the Courts will restore rights to the populace before any further overt measures to destroy our Constitution gain momentum.

Whether Sheriffs enforce law or not, the shift in gears taking place nationwide is not rational, reasonable or subtle. Radicals are moving at an ever accelerated pace toward the destruction they covet but it is a system that has continually failed leaving mayhem and massive loss of life in its wake. They mistakenly call it a revolution, which can in no wise be likened to the one that shaped our Republic, genocide would be more fitting.

Zak Smith
February 15, 2013, 09:06 PM
they would have taken the hard line just as liberals do and state in no uncertain terms that passage of any of the currently proposed bills would result in their leaving Colorado permanently.
They did just that. Maybe you missed it.

MachIVshooter
February 15, 2013, 09:07 PM
1224 & 1229 are both little more than symbolic. Yes, they might hamstring a few people, and that is unfortunate, but they are almost completely unenforceable. The burden of proof a prosecutor faces if he attempts to charge somebody with a violation of these, should they become law, will be nearly insurmountable when faced with potential civil lawsuits for a wrongful accusation/imprisonment. Would you want to be the police chief or sheriff heading an agency that arrested and charged somebody with a violation, only to find that either 1) there is no proof whatsoever that they violated the law or 2) that even if there might be proof, it will only come as the result of a weeks-long inquiry IF BATFE is willing to conduct said inquiry? Because as I mentioned, LEOs are not privy to firearm disposition records.

If these become law, I am quite sure after awhile they'll be asking for registration because there is no way to enforce these laws without it. Should that day come, I would hope that either the Republicans have regained control (likely in the 2014 elections) or the democrats who have said they don't support registration (Maclaghlin, et al) will maintain that position. If they ever pass registration in this state, I will no longer be a Colorado resident. My family, my business and my tax dollars will go to Wyoming.

Larry Ashcraft
February 15, 2013, 09:14 PM
They did just that. Maybe you missed it.
And I sincerely hope Magpul follows through on it.

Zak Smith
February 15, 2013, 09:52 PM
1224 & 1229 are both little more than symbolic. Yes, they might hamstring a few people, and that is unfortunate, but they are almost completely unenforceable.
Re: 1224.

For now, maybe.

In a couple generations there will be no "legal" 30 round mags in Colorado.

MachIVshooter
February 15, 2013, 10:02 PM
For now, maybe.

In a couple generations there will be no "legal" 30 round mags in Colorado.

Any mag that is not date stamped or serialized is considered pre-ban, because there is no way to prove it wasn't. Now that printed magazines are a reality, that makes this law even more ridiculous. So in practice, the only 16+ mags that will not be available to CO residents down the road are those proprietary designs developed after the effective date.

I an NOT saying I'm ok with this ridiculous legislation. Of course I oppose it with every ounce of my being. Point remains that it really won't do a thing to keep 16+ round magazines out of the hands of CO residents, now or in the future. Yes, mags wear out, but not quickly, and not if you take care of them. I have magazines that are over 100 years old and work fine.

Zak Smith
February 15, 2013, 10:07 PM
Any mag that is not date stamped or serialized is considered pre-ban, because there is no way to prove it wasn't.
No, dude, you miss the point. Any kid born after July 2013 could not have possessed a >15 round magazine prior to the effective date. QED.

Think long term.

MachIVshooter
February 15, 2013, 10:18 PM
No, dude, you miss the point. Any kid born after July 2013 could not have possessed a >15 round magazine prior to the effective date. QED.

Think long term.

Yeah, I wasn't thinking about that part. I keep thinking in terms of the expired federal ban, where grandfathered stuff was still transferable.

I wonder, though, how bequest might work out in this situation. It is generally not acceptable for a state to seize the property of the deceased unless they owed taxes. Will they have to pay the family for the contraband? I'm sure, as sloppily as these bills were patched together, there is no language concerning this.

coloradokevin
February 15, 2013, 10:27 PM
Lois Court is driving me nuts on the pay-for-background bill. She keeps saying how expensive this is for Colorado as things currently stand. Yep. But, we could just go through NICS like the rest of the country, and pay nothing out of the state coffers!

Zak Smith
February 15, 2013, 10:33 PM
No, it just can't be possessed by anybody.

leadcounsel
February 16, 2013, 12:00 AM
Think long term.

The failure of this law to eliminate hi-caps would become the future 'loophole' to be closed, restricting ALL hi caps, regardless of date of manufacture or grandfathering.

mrvco
February 16, 2013, 12:27 AM
"In a couple generations" I certainly "hope" that the least of our concerns is magazines with 15+ rounds being un-banned for future generations.

I'm wondering if anyone is working on "Border State Gun Lockers"... A business run like they run storage units, but for folks in neighboring gun un-friendly states to store their "illegal" mags and weapons so they can come to that state and shoot or just wait out the stupidity (or in anticipation of relocating once they have their affairs in order).

Skylerbone
February 16, 2013, 02:18 AM
They did just that. Maybe you missed it.

My understanding may be incorrect but what I thought I heard was the amended bill would allow Magpul and others to manufacture and sell to entities and individuals in other non-ban States. In essence, their position was, if I am not mistaken, if they cannot manufacture and sell they will move. With the amended bill, they can but effectively the Citizens of Colorado were left at the bus stop. My hope was that they and other industry leaders would have vowed to move if any further restrictions were enacted.

On future generations, I thought I had posted here but it was part of the thread on Missouri: any child born (in my state) 14 years before the enactment date of the legislation may possess grandfathered magazines. It is (here) legal for a 14 year old to possess a firearm but anyone not 14 years of age on the date of passage will simply go without. (We have no serious legislation pending at present.)

Still, with National Registration looming large on the horizon a battle of wills might well insure over who the rightful owner of the magazines was at the time of enactment. Will the gap kids, those 14-17 refuse to surrender magazines under penalty of law or stand their ground? Realize that in Colorado the gap age could be even smaller, if recognized at all.

Zak Smith
February 16, 2013, 02:28 AM
You said (today at 6:04),
I truly wish they would have taken the hard line just as liberals do and state in no uncertain terms that passage of any of the currently proposed bills would result in their leaving Colorado permanently.

Here's Magpul's statement from Thursday,

We have now met with CO Governor John Hickenlooper's administration. Message delivered: If House Bill 1224 passes and becomes law, regardless of exemptions or amendments, we will be forced to leave CO, along with our jobs and our tax dollars.
and another one from earlier that day
Leadership team is at the Capitol again today, holding the line. Regardless of a manufacturing exemption or not, if HB1224 passes, we have to go. We can't disappoint our customers nor ignore our convictions. Anyone who votes in favor of this bill votes to drive over 600 jobs out of CO. We'll have some contact information for some further assistance coming up soon.

Magpul's statement from earlier today
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:
MAGPUL INDUSTRIES ANNOUNCES IT WILL LEAVE COLORADO IF GUN BILL PASSES

MOVE WOULD COST STATE 600 JOBS, $85 MILLION

Denver, Colorado – February 15th, 2013 - Magpul Industries, an Erie, Colorado, based manufacturer of firearms accessories, announced today that it will be forced to leave the state if House Bill 1224, which would ban standard capacity magazines, becomes law. The announcement was made to Governor Hickenlooper, state legislators, members of the media, and in a full-page advertisement to appear in the Denver Post on Sunday.

Richard Fitzpatrick, Founder, President, and CEO of Magpul Industries, said that regardless of any amendments that may be worked into the bill, he will no longer be able to continue to do business in Colorado if his core product is made illegal.

Doug Smith's statement at the Capitol on Tuesday was consistent with both of these.

My understanding may be incorrect but what I thought I heard was the amended bill would allow Magpul and others to manufacture and sell to entities and individuals in other non-ban States. In essence, their position was, if I am not mistaken, if they cannot manufacture and sell they will move. With the amended bill, they can but effectively the Citizens of Colorado were left at the bus stop. My hope was that they and other industry leaders would have vowed to move if any further restrictions were enacted.
Might be time to back out of some of the assumptions you're working under.

Dr.Rob
February 16, 2013, 02:42 AM
The no TRANSFER or sale part is insane. When you die, you better know someone out of state to ship your magazines to.

No state that ever passed a magazine ban has repealed it.

Time to change that. Vote 'em out.

Skylerbone
February 16, 2013, 02:59 AM
Thank you Zak, I stand corrected (missed the exemption/amendment portion) and good for Magpul. I did not mean to come off wrong in my statements, merely emphasize what I incorrectly assumed were the differences. Not an opportune time to halt production but certainly a worthwhile reason. My guess is Colorado's loss will be Texas' gain.

Dr. Rob, if CO residents cannot transfer ownership I doubt that any pre-ban magazine could be legally shipped out of State, leaving destruction (or quiet collecting by LEOs) as the primary means of dealing with contraband.

Zak Smith
February 16, 2013, 03:01 AM
Once a magazine is out of state it is no longer subject to Colorado law (presumably). There is nothing in the bill to prevent me from driving to Wyoming and giving the magazine to a resident there.

Skylerbone
February 16, 2013, 03:18 AM
But the post was phrased:

When you die, you better know someone out of state to ship your magazines to.

the first three words being key. It wouldn't be high road of me to summarize my feelings on what people ought to do but I too might enjoy correspondence with friends out of State.

shinyroks
February 16, 2013, 03:19 AM
No, it just can't be possessed by anybody.
Meaning it disappears into the "void" from where it reared its ugly head when I learned the evil thing had jumped into my shooting bag?

mrvco
February 16, 2013, 03:22 AM
Selling or giving. The mag would be out of Colorado and that is their goal.

Skylerbone
February 16, 2013, 03:56 AM
Perhaps I'm nit picking but draconian laws come from deviants and how they enforce such laws will be anyone's guess. If I were a resident, it would be punishment enough on my children. I would hate to think in death they would suffer any penalty for a gun related crime by transferring illegal magazines. Loosing their "gun rights" is a real risk. Telling them to comply guarantees the loss of true rights. A double end short.

Not a matter of out of the State. If the owner was a resident at the time of death, he was a resident, the property resides with his estate and no resident can transfer that property. If you are a resident, wait a year, then drive across the border and give away your magazines, you've transferred that magazine and broken the law.

Or am I hopelessly confused?

coloradokevin
February 16, 2013, 04:01 AM
I'm wondering if anyone is working on "Border State Gun Lockers"... A business run like they run storage units, but for folks in neighboring gun un-friendly states to store their "illegal" mags and weapons so they can come to that state and shoot or just wait out the stupidity (or in anticipation of relocating once they have their affairs in order).


I'm surprised someone hasn't come up with that very business plan somewhere along the California-Nevada border! Still, the idea that something like this would even need to exist saddens me.

Not a matter of out of the State. If the owner was a resident at the time of death, he was a resident, the property resides with his estate and no resident can transfer that property. If you are a resident, wait a year, then drive across the border and give away your magazines, you've transferred that magazine and broken the law.

There's no provision in the law that says you can't take your magazines out of this state after the ban. Colorado's rule about transferring magazines can only be enforced within the borders of Colorado. As long as you're legally allowed to leave the state with the magazine, you can do whatever you want with that magazine in the state you're in (just so long as you aren't violating that state's laws).

Obviously this whole issue is rather unenforceable to begin with. It isn't like the government knows who has what in the way of magazines. But, the whole concept still sucks.

Robert
February 16, 2013, 10:45 AM
I guess the one upside is, at least here in Colorado Springs, that local law enforcement has said they will not enforce these bans if they become law. Terry Maketa said exactly that on the county's web page. Tough to enforce a law when there is no one to do it.

Jitterbug
February 16, 2013, 10:50 AM
May be, but I couldn't help but think of the mess this is going to create. Talk about sloppy legislation, what an embarrassment these so called lawmakers are.

Bottom line is the vast majority of firearms owners are above board when it comes to obeying the law, so we won't violate it even if we could.

Jitterbug
February 16, 2013, 11:17 AM
If you can’t beat them join ‘em, I think we need to take a cue from the liberal playbook and support candidates that we are sure can get elected in the next election cycle. The Republican Party has had some embarrassing moments in some recent elections. The mess with Tancredo cost us the Governors seat. All my liberal acquaintances had a good laugh over that and because of that stupidity we literally handed the seat to Hickenlooper on a silver platter, it was embarrassing.

Many were shocked at how far Colorado swung into the blue in the last election cycle, I’m speculating it was due in large part to the dope smokers…supporting the legalization of pot is what got them to the polls and they inevitably voted democrat across the board. Of course the Dem’s realized this and capitalized on it as a way to build their base.

I’m not an advocate of pot legalization especially when kids are concerned, however I do take somewhat of a libertarian viewpoint that the war on drugs is a waste of resources. I look at it as more of a mental health issue.

If we are going to prevail in future elections we need to find minority’s who hold conservative values going forward and we are going to need to change our viewpoints on some core values before we can effectively take back some of these seats.

Previously I’ve never paid much attention to how laws were actually made, but being able to spend a few hours watching online while my ox was being gored was educational to say the least and one thing that was reinforced beyond any shadow of a doubt is that I will never, ever again trust the judgment and integrity of a Democrat in the future.

After reading this morning’s Denver Post article about this fiasco it’s clear what’s going on, we are a battleground state being used as an example for the direction they intend to take this nation, these ridiculous laws are just testing the waters and setting the stage for more draconian measures in the last vestige of the land of the free.

In my mind there is only one viable solution and that is a concerted and effective movement to remove these people from office, starting now. This is 1994 all over again and for starters we need to at least double the size of the NRA, 10 million strong would be a good starting point. It’s embarrassing that with something like 80 million or so gun owners we only have 4.5 million NRA members.

milehighjc
February 16, 2013, 12:10 PM
I was hoping that a good night’s sleep would soften my foul mood about this.

It didn’t.

In fact, the more I think about it, the more frustrated I get.

These laws are completely unenforceable, and even if they were enforceable, would do nothing to keep firearms out of the hands of criminals or the insane: perhaps the background checks on private sales COULD have helped, but that one is so poorly written that it will have no effect.

Nothing has been done to keep the guns out of the hands of known mentally deficient people (which would have stopped the Theater Shooting, and maybe even Newtown), and nothing has been done to try to reduce illegal trafficking of guns. All they have done is reduce the ability of law abiding citizens to protect themselves. In the case of the campus ban, the new law is outright dangerous, as it advertises to potential criminals that the students/teachers have no way of defending themselves. Gun Free Zone? How about Free Kill Zone. I am beyond frustrated, and for the first time in my life plan on getting actively involved in the next election.

To put a fine point on it, this has become personal. One of my daughters is attending CSU. When walking across campus late at night, she calls a friend she knows that has a conceal carry permit who escorts her to wherever she needs to go - safely. She is very petite (and attractive). She would have little to no chance of defending herself. So... this morning - I decided to try ONE Google search "CSU Campus Assault". First result - September 12 2012, attempted Sexual Assault. The second hit was the Campus Security report - showing far too many assaults, sexual assaults, burglary... etc. So now our esteemed politicians have ADVERTISED to all with criminal intent that any Colorado Campus is the happy hunting grounds. This law is not meaningless; it is dangerous. It makes MY daughter less safe, and that is personal.

For the first time in my life, I intend to be very active in the next election cycle. Sitting quietly on the sidelines while our state becomes Calirodo is not an acceptable course of action.

Pilot
February 16, 2013, 12:19 PM
I am just thoroughly, and totally disgusted. I don't even know what to say.

Jitterbug
February 16, 2013, 12:44 PM
milehigh, if you are not a member already I would strongly urge you to join the NRA as well as a gift membership for your daughter.

We need a strong female membership in the NRA, woman and minority shooters are growing in leaps and bounds and we need to get them involved.

In the meantime she can (maybe, not sure of the law or campus rules) carry pepper spray and learn some self defense techniques which is better then nothing.

buckeye8
February 16, 2013, 12:57 PM
I'll ask again: For those of us not from Colorado, are these laws proposed, or have they actually been passed into law?

Jitterbug
February 16, 2013, 12:59 PM
They passed out of the house, next step is the state senate and then on to the Governor, if I understand the process correctly.

Zak Smith
February 16, 2013, 01:09 PM
We only need 3 (D) Senators or 5 (D) Representatives to vote against to prevent any one of these from passing.

DO NOT GIVE UP NOW.

I spoke to my state Senator this morning, face to face, about the economic impact to my family, businesses, and the state.

House:

john.buckner.house@state.co.us; perrybuck49@gmail.com;
kathleen.conti.house@state.co.us; don.coram.house@state.co.us;
lois.court.house@state.co.us; brian@briandelgrosso.com;
tim.dore.house@state.co.us; crisanta.duran.house@state.co.us;
justin.everett.house@state.co.us; thomas.exum.house@state.co.us;
mferrandino@yahoo.com; rhonda.fields.house@state.co.us;
randyfischer@frii.com; mike.foote.house@state.co.us;
leroy.garcia.house@state.co.us; bob.gardner.house@state.co.us;
cheri.gerou@gmail.com; joann.ginal.house@state.co.us;
millie.hamner.house@state.co.us; chris.holbert.house@state.co.us;
dl.hullinghorst.house@state.co.us; rephumphrey48@yahoo.com;
janak.joshi.house@state.co.us; repkagan@gmail.com;
reptracy29@gmail.com; jeanne.labuda.house@state.co.us;
lois.landgraf.house@state.co.us; polly.lawrence.house@state.co.us;
steve.lebsock.house@state.co.us; pete.lee.house@state.co.us;
claire.levy.house@state.co.us; jenise.may.house@state.co.us;
beth.mccann.house@state.co.us; mike.mclachlan.house@state.co.us;
jovan.melton.house@state.co.us; diane.mitschbush.house@state.co.us;
dominick.moreno.house@state.co.us; murrayhouse45@gmail.com;
clarice.navarro.house@state.co.us; dan.nordberg.house@state.co.us;
dan.pabon.house@state.co.us; cherylin.peniston.house@state.co.us;
brittany.pettersen.house@state.co.us;
dianne.primavera.house@state.co.us; kpriola@gmail.com;
bob.rankin.house@state.co.us; paul.rosenthal.house@state.co.us;
su.ryden.house@state.co.us; lori.saine.house@state.co.us;
joseph.salazar.house@state.co.us; sue.schafer.house@state.co.us;
ray.scott.house@state.co.us; jonathan.singer.house@state.co.us;
jerry@repsonnenberg.com; amy.stephens.house@state.co.us;
spencer.swalm.house@state.co.us; libby.szabo.house@state.co.us;
max@maxtyler.us; edvigil1@gmail.com; mark.waller.house@state.co.us;
angela.williams.house@state.co.us; james.wilson.house@state.co.us;
jared.wright.house@state.co.us; dave.young.house@state.co.us

Senate:

irene.aguilar.senate@state.co.us; david.balmer.senate@state.co.us;
randy.baumgardner.senate@state.co.us; greg@gregbrophy.net;
bill.cadman.senate@state.co.us; morgan.carroll.senate@state.co.us;
larry.crowder.senate@state.co.us; angela.giron.senate@state.co.us;
kevin.grantham.senate@state.co.us; lucia.guzman.senate@state.co.us;
ted.harvey.senate@state.co.us; rollie.heath.senate@state.co.us;
owen.hill.senate@state.co.us; mary.hodge.senate@state.co.us;
senatorhudak@gmail.com; cheri.jahn.senate@state.co.us;
mike.johnston.senate@state.co.us; senatormattjones@gmail.com;
john.kefalas.senate@state.co.us; andy.kerr.senate@state.co.us;
steve.king.senate@state.co.us; senatorlambert@comcast.net;
kevin@kevinlundberg.com; vicki.marble.senate@state.co.us;
john.morse.senate@state.co.us; linda.newell.senate@gmail.com;
jeanne.nicholson.senate@state.co.us; senatorrenfroe@gmail.com;
ellen.roberts.senate@state.co.us; mark.scheffel.senate@state.co.us;
gail.schwartz.senate@gmail.com; pat.steadman.senate@state.co.us;
lotochtrop@aol.com; nancy.todd.senate@state.co.us;
jessie.ulibarri.senate@state.co.us

We need people to write short, POLITE, and to the point letters that
they oppose these bills. Suggested reasons: economic, freedom,
personal interest, self defense.

I would STRONGLY recommend going after the ECONOMIC aspect of these bills, especially 1224.

Besides the highly publicized Magpul situation (approx 600 employees), easily double that amount of small business will leave, along with various professionals who just don't want to live in Co anymore.

Jitterbug
February 16, 2013, 01:11 PM
Thanks Zak, me and mine will be writing to ALL of the above no later then tomorrow.

MachIVshooter
February 16, 2013, 01:12 PM
The mess with Tancredo cost us the Governors seat. All my liberal acquaintances had a good laugh over that and because of that stupidity we literally handed the seat to Hickenlooper on a silver platter, it was embarrassing.

That's why we need to stay on Hick. He is not stupid, he knows that our split vote not only meant neither conservative candidate could win, but that many conservative voters just didn't bother. He is also well aware that these issues energize a base. Hand written letters are the way to go here, and lots of 'em. He needs to be reminded that there is NOT a mandate for this garbage. He knows how the large independent vote in this state works, which is why he didn't make any mention of gun control after the Aurora theatre, with elections just around the corner. People didn't feel that RKBA was at risk, and voted based on other issues. Hick needs to be told that we WON'T forget 2 and 4 years from now who attacked rights and sent jobs out of the state. He also needs to remember that there's not going to be another marijuana initiative on the ballot next time, and much of that liberal vote is going to be too lazy to go to the polls.

And please, people, let our battles here be a reminder that is can happen to you, too. There are plenty of states that aren't at risk right now, but remember, just a short decade ago we got a bunch of pro-gun legislation.

And Colorado residents, please don't forget about the FEDERAL battle. Keep writing those letters, too. Just because we have a GOP house does not mean the nation is safe, and it'll be more difficult to overturn federal laws than state laws.

Jitterbug
February 16, 2013, 01:12 PM
Maybe we need to renew this thread with a new call to action for EVERYONE to right these Rep's even out of state folks?

Providing all those names and addressees?

Zak Smith
February 16, 2013, 01:13 PM
Here are some example letters that I have already used.

Hello,

I moved to Fort Collins to work in high-tech 15 years ago. For the
last 10 years, the economy has not been great. Everyone has been
struggling to get by for some time.

However, there are a few areas of the economy that are GROWING. One
of those growth sectors is firearms. The Front Range has a
flourishing ecosystem of growing companies in the firearms industry.

In fact, I left my "stable" high-tech job in 2012 to pursue my own
business full-time. I am a small business owner living in Fort
Collins.

My companies are involved in competitive target shooting events,
training for citizens, police, and military, and MANUFACTURING.

My manufacturing company is 66% owned by Fort Collins residents!

The four gun bills under consideration - 1224, 1226, 1228, and 1229 -
are causing MASSIVE DISRUPTION to all aspects of our business
operations. Of these, the worst is 1224.

I'm sure you've heard of the situation with MAGPUL (based in Erie).

My company has a strategic partnership with MAGPUL. The economic
gains from this relationship are in jeopardy due to these gun bills.

If Colorado passes 1224, 1226, 1228, or 1229, we will be forced to
relocate our businesses, employees, prosperity, factories, families,
and households to other states.

Besides the highly publicised "600" jobs that Magpul ALONE would take
out of Colorado, businesses such as mine would easily comprise DOUBLE
that amount.

In these tough economic times, Colorado cannot afford to eject
thousands of people who are contributing to economic growth!

thank you for your time,
Zak Smith



My name is Zak Smith and I live in Fort Collins. I am a small
business owner in the firearms industry, involved in manufacturing,
firearms training and competitive shooting events.

I recently attended the Capitol to testify against HB-1224, 1226,
1228, and 1229. Unfortunately, due to time constraints, I was only
able to actually be heard on 1224, the magazine ban. Here are the
jist of my comments on that bill.

I moved to Colorado to start my professional career 15 years ago, and
I was immediately impressed by the friendliness of the people and
their affinity for freedom and personal responsiblity. Colorado has a
strong heritage of firearms use, in sport, hunting, competition, and
self defense.

The US Supreme Court has recently ruled that individuals have a right
to possess and use firearms for self defense, espeically those
firearms in common use and most suited for self defense.

The guns used by police, by citizens inside their homes, and carried
under Colorado's Concealed Handgun Permit program for self defense,
typically have a standard capacity of 12-30 rounds.

A magazine limit would impair the right to self defense. Such a limit
would also curtail lawful use of firearms that are already in common
use, used ubiquitously for self defense, target shooting, and for
other purposes.

This would seem to be in direct contradiction to the recent US Supreme
Court rulings. Limitations on such basic rights as those outlined in
the US Constition cannot be made simply to make a symbolic point or
because there is a feeling that "something must be done". Any measure
to curtail such rights must undergo the strictest scrutiny and
examination.

A Colorado ban on magazines will do nothing to aid public safety,
however, it will significantly curtail the ability of Colorado's
citizens to defend themselves.

Finally, the Front Range is home to a flourishing ecosystem of
firearms-related small businesses, ranging from manufacturing, to
research and development, to self-defense training, and competitive
shooting events. My own business is involved in several of these
areas.

I am one of the owners of a small manufacturing company that is
growing at a rate of doubling every 8 months. The company has a
facility in Cheyenne for arbitrary historical reasons; but two of the
three owners of the company and a third of its employees live in Fort
Collins or its surrounding areas.

Laws such as the proposed HB 1224 will create an unfriendly or
untenable environment for these business and they are likely to leave,
with their revenue, employees, and families. That would a shame
because Colorado is a great and beautiful state that I have been proud
to call home.

In addition, one of Colorado's most innovative and most successful
start-ups, Magpul Industries Corporation, based in Erie, would be
forced to leave the state if HB 1224 is passed.



As a resident and voter in Colorado, I am writing you today to urge
you to vote against:

* HB 13-1224 - Concerning Prohibiting Large-Capacity Ammunition
Magazines

* HB 13-1229 - Concerning Criminal Background Checks Performed
Pursuant To The Transfer Of A Firearm

* HB 13-1226 - Concerning Eliminating The Authority Of A Concealed
Handgun Permit Holder To Possess A Concealed Handgun On The Campus
Of An Institution of Higher Education

* HB 13-1228 - Concerning Requiring The Colorado Bureau Of
Investigation To Recoup The Cost Of Performing An Instant Criminal
Background Check Prior To The Transfer Of A Firearm

These proposed measures are “knee jerk” reactions that will not
contribute to the reduction of gun violence. These laws will not be
respected by criminals and will only impact the rights of lawful
citizens. I am frankly ashamed that Colorado has leveraged a tragedy
in another state to push these anti-gun bills.


Feel free to take snippets

Dr.Rob
February 16, 2013, 01:27 PM
Since our kids 'can't have them' isn't that potentially a viloation of search and siezure?

Colorado basically just said I can let a loved one inherit my rifle (with a background check and fees) but no standard capacity magazines to go with it.

I'm not done writing and calling. What a mess.

milehighjc
February 16, 2013, 01:50 PM
Zak,
Well written letters, thanks for posting.

Unfortunately, the media is all over a threatening voice message left for Rep Joe Salazar. This does nothing to help the cause, it feeds the view the gun owners are violent nut cases. Its unfortunate.

http://www.9news.com/news/article/317326/339/Gun-debate-spurs-threats-at-Capitol

MachIVshooter
February 16, 2013, 02:12 PM
Unfortunately, the media is all over a threatening voice message left for Rep Joe Salazar. This does nothing to help the cause, it feeds the view the gun owners are violent nut cases. Its unfortunate.

Idiots like that certainly don't help us. Unfortunately, they are out there, on both sides (how many were calling for execution of NRA executives and members recently?).

hak
February 16, 2013, 02:58 PM
Damn. Read the whole thread. Disgusted. The pol's comments on its lack of effectiveness was mind blowing. It's all about control. Keep fighting.

Steel Horse Rider
February 16, 2013, 04:22 PM
Zak: I was also at the meeting and heard you speak. I was standing on the north front side and spoke near the end about the ineffective way existing laws have been enforced and the lack of curiosity towards the impact of the psychotropic drugs on our youth. I looked for you afterwards but couldn't find you. I think Senator Kefalas got an eye opener but I have known him for about twenty years and don't expect him to stand up against the Democrat leadership.

Zak Smith
February 16, 2013, 04:34 PM
I bugged out after I spoke.

With respect to the gentlemen who spoke before me, trying to convince a (D) to vote against something liek 1224 and bringing up rocket launchers is not likely to get your intended result.

http://www.amazon.com/How-Win-Friends-Influence-People/dp/0671027034

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/514bXvl1HtL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg

Dr.Rob
February 16, 2013, 08:37 PM
All my state reps have gotten a letter from me, as did the governor.

IlikeSA
February 16, 2013, 09:07 PM
Could some of the home-rule cities like Littleton or Colorado Springs go against the ban? Denver has no open carry, how about a home rule city saying "mags of any size and guns transferable without a background check." Colorado has 61 cities and 35 towns that are home rule municipalities.

Justin
February 16, 2013, 09:07 PM
I contacted my rep as well as the governor, both via email and Facebook.

Drafting letters to go out to Colorado Springs senators shortly.

MachIVshooter
February 16, 2013, 10:24 PM
Emails sent (again), page-long hand written letters en route.

dvlhntr
February 17, 2013, 01:12 PM
I have sent emails now individually to all the reps. I have sent had written letters, which I am sure will arrive after the official vote in the house.

Today I am working contacting Senators and Hickenlooper.

There are also cell phone numbers for a few of the house reps on their web sites. I urge everyone to send text message or call. Facebook pages as well.

Please keep any contact with them professional.

bill3424
February 17, 2013, 01:13 PM
I've let my few friends know in CO to do what they can to make sure you guys remain free.

longknife12
February 17, 2013, 01:21 PM
Redundant....did emails n letters..again. Only replys are form mean nothing replys...still gonna do them.
Dan

phonesysphonesys
February 17, 2013, 01:27 PM
I guess we know who are our enimies are. It is going to be a long up hill fight. We need to be real active politicaly and get these people voted out of office. Colorado made national news for gun restrictions today.
Semper Fi

Steel Horse Rider
February 17, 2013, 02:13 PM
Where did all of our member Democrats go? They could be a lot more effective if they lobbied the Democrat majority who are pushing this evil. It is time to stand and be counted if you live in Colorado and voted Democrat in the past. Let your party people know that you are not supportive of their efforts to void the Constitution.

mokin
February 17, 2013, 05:19 PM
I'm starting to admire the Democrats on this move. Either they are absolutely sure they can get away with this or are willing to commit political suicide in the name of a futile cause.

Me, I'm thinking, if they get away with this, they will be gone in two years. I am amazed at the blind trust the Democrats have in thier leadership rather than following the wishes of thier constituants.

Either way this next election will be very interesting.

HorseSoldier
February 17, 2013, 06:08 PM
Are there any state reps in the Denver area who are wavering/weak points on this issue?

My wife may be up for a two year post-doctoral gig with the Denver VA, which would (perhaps obviously) entail both of us relocating there at least for those couple years. I'd be happy to write to anyone whose district I might be living (and voting in) a year from now about how my college educate, middle class family unit will be giving Colorado a pass if it passes state legislation subverting the Constitution of the United States.

coloradokevin
February 17, 2013, 08:36 PM
Where did all of our member Democrats go? They could be a lot more effective if they lobbied the Democrat majority who are pushing this evil. It is time to stand and be counted if you live in Colorado and voted Democrat in the past. Let your party people know that you are not supportive of their efforts to void the Constitution.

Indeed. While I don't mean to detract from the very important message that this thread is attempting to address, I must admit that I remember hearing quite a few Democrats on here around election time, who were none-too-concerned with the desire or ability of the elected Democrats to diminish their 2nd Amendment rights.

Thus far here in Colorado, this issue has gone EXACTLY down party lines. If it does that this week, we're losing our rights. Right now we ABSOLUTELY need some Democratic representatives to buck the party line and vote with common sense.

And, I do hope any of the closet Democrats around here will remember this event in the next election.

Steel Horse Rider
February 17, 2013, 10:15 PM
HorseSoldier: You don't want to move to Denver proper as they are almost as bad as Chicago for denying your Second Amendment Rights. Be sure to research the area before moving.

dvlhntr
February 17, 2013, 11:02 PM
Are there any state reps in the Denver area who are wavering/weak points on this issue?

My wife may be up for a two year post-doctoral gig with the Denver VA, which would (perhaps obviously) entail both of us relocating there at least for those couple years. I'd be happy to write to anyone whose district I might be living (and voting in) a year from now about how my college educate, middle class family unit will be giving Colorado a pass if it passes state legislation subverting the Constitution of the United States.


There are several dems who plan to vote in favor of these bills that are also on the VA committee.
here is a list for Colorado house VA committee. in case you want to tailor a message to them specifically.

su.ryden.house@state.co.us
joseph.salazar.house@state.co.us (very anti 2A/GunOwners)
tim.dore.house@state.co.us
mike.foote.house@state.co.us
rephumphrey48@yahoo.com
jeanne.labuda.house@state.co.us
jovan.melton.house@state.co.us (infected twitter account that pumps out spam BTW)
dominick.moreno.house@state.co.us
dan.nordberg.house@state.co.us
ray.scott.house@state.co.us
angela.williams.house@state.co.us (also very anti 2A)



as has been said by Steel Horse Rider:
Read the city ordinance for Denver before you move there. Outside of the city and county of Denver, as of today, is still free-er for the most part- but given these bills the rest of Colorado might also be a another state that starts the down the slippery slope.

Keep fighting and writing folks.

leadcounsel
February 18, 2013, 02:02 AM
Colorado - if Colorado falls than many swing states will fall to anti-gun laws. Sad.

EVERYONE needs to write, regardless of residency.

This worries me A LOT.

These mag bans were previously in Dem controlled states but have moved to swing states.

Also, to those that think these laws are unenforcible, people do go to jail in states like NJ and IL for these types of violations. So think again.

coloradokevin
February 18, 2013, 02:09 AM
I've thus far received two replies to the e-mails I've sent out TONIGHT, and neither seemed like an automatic canned reply.


State representative Libby Szabo is definitely in our corner, and urged us to continue fighting to defend our rights.

On the other hand, state representative Paul Rosenthal replied to my e-mail with a one liner in which he identified me by name, then said: "I am enthusiastically voting YES!".

He's clearly not in our corner.

Please keep contacting these folks, they are checking their e-mail!

Solo
February 18, 2013, 02:23 AM
Can you suggest to Paul Rosenthal that he at least respect the laws of grammar, if not the Constitution, and refrain from capitalizing entire adverbs at the end of a sentence?

MachIVshooter
February 18, 2013, 02:54 AM
Are there any state reps in the Denver area who are wavering/weak points on this issue?

Not really, not until you get out into the suburbs, which are not Denver county. Jefferson county, Arapahoe county and Adams county immediately border Denver, and some of their results were close (note: the districts are not county by county).

You need to get at least one county away from Denver in any direction to be in friendly political territory. I'm in Elbert, and bluish-purple Arapco stands between us (3/4 red) and Denver (3/4 blue). Douglas is a little less red than Elbert, also a county away.

Here is an interactive that will highlight the counties and the Romney/Obama percentage in the 2012 election. Since districts ignore county lines, this is the best was to get an idea how a county leans:

http://data.denverpost.com/election/results/president/2012/

coloradokevin
February 18, 2013, 03:04 AM
Got another reply from Representative Chris Holbert. I like him:


"Thank you for your email and your concern for the Second Amendment.

Please note that I have already voted "No" on the so-called "gun
control" bills and I will continue to do so.

The Second Amendment is our defense against tyranny. I will not
negotiate with your Rights under the Constitution, which means that I
will not compromise on the Second Amendment.

The House will vote on HB-1224, HB-1226, HB-1228, and HB-1229 after we
convene at 10:00 a.m. Monday morning. The final, "Third Reading," vote
is a recorded vote. Unless absent or previously excused, each of the
65 Representatives in the House will either push the red "No" button
or the green "Yes" button. There is no "present" vote alternative in
our state legislature. Thirty-three is the number of votes required to
pass a bill through the House. Anything less and the bill fails.

You're always welcome to come to your Capitol Building and watch the
proceedings from the House gallery. Doors should open by 9:00 a.m. One
public entrance is located at the north end of the Capitol at Colfax
Avenue. On the north side of the complex, go UP the granite steps and
enter at the First floor. The second public entrance is located at the
south end of the Capitol at 14th Avenue. On the south side of the
complex, enter BELOW the granite steps and enter at the Basement
level.

If you can't make it to the Capitol and you have Comcast cable
television service, then you may also be able to watch us on the
"Colorado Channel" on Comcast 165. You can also watch or listen to
proceedings on the House Chambers online at:

http://www.leg.state.co.us/clics/clics2013A/cslFrontPages.nsf/Audio?OpenPage

It is an honor and privilege to serve in our Colorado House of Representatives.

Respectfully yours,

- Chris

Representative Chris Holbert
District 44
Parker • Lone Tree
State Capitol Building
200 E Colfax Ave, #271
Denver, CO 80203
Capitol: (303) 866-2933
chris.holbert.house@state.co.us"

MachIVshooter
February 18, 2013, 03:09 AM
Holbert is on the education committee and battled tirelessly against 1226. He also fought all day Friday against all 4 bills. He is an ally, no question.

Queen_of_Thunder
February 18, 2013, 08:56 AM
If Monday is the House vote when does it hit the Senate and how long before the Senate votes on it.

Jitterbug
February 18, 2013, 10:28 AM
This is a response from Greg Brophy and a copy of the letter I sent to ALL reps and senators thanks to Zak's handy list. I like Greg's response...


Thanks for taking the time to write. I hope that at least a few of the Democrats will vote against these bills. I want you to remember who has pushed these bills; do not vote for a Democrat in Colorado again. Even if one votes against any of these bills, they still support the leaders who are pushing these infringements. You can count on me to do everything possible to defeat any and all gun control measures.

Greg B.
Spelling errors are Apple's fault, I own the grammar.

Dear Representative

I strongly urge you to vote NO on these bills.

House Bill 1224 – Bans magazines with a capacity greater than fifteen rounds.
House Bill 1226 – Repeals current law allowing individuals with a concealed carry permit to carry a firearm for self-defense on a college or university campus.
House Bill 1228 – Imposes a “gun tax” for a background check when purchasing a firearm.
House Bill 1229 – Criminalizes the private transfer of a firearm.

Criminals will not be swayed by any of these bills and House Bill 1226 will simply create another “killing field” for the criminally insane while encouraging more school shootings in the future.

House Bill 1224 will eliminate 100’s of jobs in Erie , Colorado and millions of dollars from our fragile Colorado economy while doing nothing to prevent crimes such as Aurora . If you must have a magazine ban, why not the 100 round drum magazine which was used by the Aurora criminal?

House Bill 1229 will be unenforceable without a gun registration scheme and is an added burden to lawful firearms owners.

Allowing CCW holders to by-pass the current background check system would lesson the impact on the already overstressed Colorado background check system, after all they have already submitted and passed a rigorous background check and must do so on a regular basis.

Burdensome, unenforceable laws and regulations on the law abiding citizenry of this State will do nothing to reduce crimes.

Dismissing the opposition of hundreds of Colorado residents at these hearings and stripping away the constitutional Right to Keep and Bear Arms by law abiding citizens will not go unnoticed, especially during the next election cycle.

My family and I and many of our co-workers and friends are very disappointed in the direction this new Legislature is taking us.

Respectfully,
Jitterbug

I've also received several other letters back already this morning, all very positive and especially so from my State Rep Libby Szabo.

Similar hardcopy letters are going out to the Governor first thing this morning.

Don't give up the fight folks...and I'd encourage anyone who is even "thinking" of coming to Colorado to throw in support. We especially need the Democrats from Durango and Steamboat Springs to hear about potential loss to tourism.

We may loose a battle or two but we can win this war in 2014 and 2016

MachIVshooter
February 18, 2013, 12:01 PM
I had the opportunity to talk with senator Brophy while I was at the capital last Wednesday. He is squarely in our corner, but fighting a losing battle with a 15-20 minority in the senate.

He said he would send out a list of senators in purple districts who would be most likely to consider the political consequences of these bills, though I've not received this list yet.

What was his suggestion? Go after the governor. He felt that these bills getting through the house and senate were foregone conclusions with the dem majorities, but that Hickenlooper was apt to consider the costs of signing them in a state that can still go either way pretty easily. Hick didn't have to campaign last time in 2010, because the conservative vote was split; the election was handed to him. They also had the marijuana bill bringing out a lot of otherwise lazy people in 2012, the extreme majority of whom check the D box. Those advantages will be absent in 2014. Romney was projected to carry Colorado by 2-5 points, depending on the poll; most experts agree that the marijuana bill is what affected the outcome.

In other words, there's really no reason to believe the state has swung hard left, but rather that several contributing factors led to democrat wins in 2008, 2010 and 2012. Ken buck lost the federal senate race by less than 1 point, if memory serves. They just got control of the state house this session.

So, write Hickenlooper. Call him, fax him, just implore him that the people of Colorado don't want this. Even if you're not in the state, express that your intended move or vacation plans will be abandoned if these bills become law. Agriculture and industry are still our main revenues here, but the tourist economy is no small consideration.

phonesysphonesys
February 18, 2013, 12:09 PM
I have tried calling Representatives this morning. You can only get their vioce mail. Almost all of the boxes are full.
Semper Fi

CoRoMo
February 18, 2013, 12:32 PM
I'm curious to know what level of email in-pouring these officials have experienced on just gun control alone. I'd hope it would be huge. I have family in four states working with me to contact everyone in the House and Senate here and the governor too.

Gordon_Freeman
February 18, 2013, 12:37 PM
I just submitted the form to the Governor. I have taken a few vacations to Colorado, but I won't go again if they pass this legislation.

MachIVshooter
February 18, 2013, 12:40 PM
One more point to put in the letters:

People don't immigrate to states because of strict gun control; If they did, CA, IL and NY would be seeing population booms. It is not something the other side usually considers, so the loss of revenue by gun owners who refuse to visit or move to CO will not be offset by people coming here because of the new laws; The anti-gunners who come here would have anyway, but the pro-gun folks who had planned to change their minds.

CoRoMo
February 18, 2013, 12:45 PM
I just submitted the form to the Governor. I have taken a few vacations to Colorado, but I won't go again if they pass this legislation.

That is a perfect example of what the governor should be hearing!!

Also, anyone who might consider moving anytime in the future; let him know how this legislation would affect your decision to make Colorado your next home. Describe your expertise so that he knows what Colorado would miss out on.

For anyone willing, contact Hickenlooper here: http://www.colorado.gov/govhdir/requests/opinion-leg.html

Jitterbug
February 18, 2013, 12:48 PM
I think hearing from out of state folks would have an impact. Tourism is a large segment of our economy.

4kdave
February 18, 2013, 01:04 PM
Today is a Holiday and they are off.

MBaneACP
February 18, 2013, 01:14 PM
Key point here...while I 100% agree we keep calling, writing, etc. (the Governor's office just informed me that he's "unwilling" to have a private meeting with me, BTW), none of this has anything to do with what the people of Colorado want. I've had proponents of the bills tell me they have been swamped with "Vote NO!" messages.

Colorado is a "test run" for Michael Bloomberg's civilian disarmament plan, and it's working just great. Think of it as a franchise operation — Bloomberg supplies the legal boilerplate, a package of "pro" witnesses, including a nice selection of blood dancers, heads of some fake "gun advocate" organizations like "Hunters for Reasonable Gun Control," retired law enforcement who are willing to sit in front of legislative body and lie (the former BATFE guy told a whopper), etc.

The key point is that the Bloomberg organization then "guarantees" that it will fund a primary challenge from the left for any Democrat who breaks rank. The carrot is probably that if the Dem stays in line, Bloomberg money will be available (I haven't been able to verify that part yet).

None of this has to do with what the people of Colorado want...that's why this stuff is being rammed through so quickly. It's worth noting that the "Pros" couldn't even find enough locals to fill up their allotted times during the "public testimony" phase.

Call me paranoid — and many people have! — but I expect something like an assault weapon ban bill in the next few weeks. That bill will be designed to fail. to allow the Dems in the rural districts to cast a "NO" vote, then go back to their districts and say they stood tall for the Second Amendment. I plan to be in those districts come election time, and I WILL have something to say about those "heroes..."

KEEP CALLNG...KEEP WRITING...KEEP FIGHTING..and buy a bunch of standard capacity magazines!!!!!!

BTW BTW, can you imagine what a storm this would be if a right-wing multibillionaire decided to essentially take over the electoral politics of a state?

Michael B

MachIVshooter
February 18, 2013, 01:15 PM
Today is a Holiday and they are off.

Today is the 3rd reading of the bills; They're not off, they're just not going to be in their offices.

MachIVshooter
February 18, 2013, 01:21 PM
Call me paranoid — and many people have! — but I expect something like an assault weapon ban bill in the next few weeks. That bill will be designed to fail. to allow the Dems in the rural districts to cast a "NO" vote, then go back to their districts and say they stood tall for the Second Amendment. I plan to be in those districts come election time, and I WILL have something to say about those "heroes..."

Yup, just like Salazar and (especially) Maclaghlin; " I believe in the second amendment, and I fought for you and got you 15 rounds instead of 10!".

They are not allies. They are the foxes guarding the henhouse. Just because they aren't as extreme as Fields, McCann and others DOES NOT mean they are on our side.

These people are NOT enforcing the will of Coloradoans, and they know it. They just suffer from hubris. They will see their folly in 2014 and 2016, of that I am sure.

We can always get this stuff repealed later through pro-gun legislation, court challenges, jury nullification and even amendments, but it's definitely preferable to defeat it now.

CoRoMo
February 18, 2013, 01:44 PM
They're not off, they're just not going to be in their offices.
And they are still getting their emails.

I'm getting personally written responses from House members this morning with the 'Sent from my iPad' line at the bottom.

They're still listening.

Zak Smith
February 18, 2013, 01:47 PM
We have 3 D's on board against at least 1224 in the House already.

Video
http://www.coloradochannel.net/colorado-house-2013-legislative-day-41

Justin
February 18, 2013, 01:48 PM
For everyone outside of Colorado who's contacting the legislators here on behalf of the RKBA, thank you.

radiotom
February 18, 2013, 01:49 PM
I think the fact that they are allowing Magpul to continue manufacturing the banned mags and sell to out-of-staters shows that they really aren't concerned about saving lives, just concerned about politics in Colorado. Good on Magpul for leaving anyways. I do feel bad for their employees though.

Justin
February 18, 2013, 02:04 PM
They're reading Zak Smith's letter on air right now.

MachIVshooter
February 18, 2013, 02:04 PM
They're reading your letter, Zack. Rep Humphrey

CoRoMo
February 18, 2013, 02:04 PM
Hey Zak, your email is being read right now! Great job!

Zak Smith
February 18, 2013, 02:05 PM
Wait, what??

CoRoMo
February 18, 2013, 02:06 PM
You missed it dude.

He just read you letter in full, name and all.

MachIVshooter
February 18, 2013, 02:06 PM
That sounded even more eloquent being read on the floor than reading it here (probably by contrast of average THR member intelligence versus Colorado general assembly intelligence. lol).

Good job, Zak!

Zak Smith
February 18, 2013, 02:06 PM
Ah, nuts, I had muted it for a business call for a minute

mokin
February 18, 2013, 02:08 PM
I've already recieved a few encouraging e mail responses from some of the Republicans this morning after doing a quick mass e mail contact to everybody. On that note, I think I'll get a little on with my day. Watching it unfold is likely to just frustrate me.

bds
February 18, 2013, 02:16 PM
Watching the video ... good arguments/comments being made (sorry for my crude paraphrasing):

Great read of the email ... the bill will have negative consequences that will affect state revenue, economic recovery (only booming sector currently) and will cause relocation of thousands of families ...

More republican comments:

In regards to the pheasant hunt example where 3 rounds give pheasants a fair chance (used by a democrat representative), WE ARE THE PHEASANT and we need to be able to shoot back ...

Why do we need more than 10 rounds? Because criminals shooting at us have more than 10 rounds ...

Remember that we are not hunters but pheasants in our communities ...

coloradokevin
February 18, 2013, 02:30 PM
I just now had the opportunity to tune in... I'm glad that some of the letters we've sent are being read for all to hear. Way to go Zak!

Have any of these measures been voted on yet during the third reading?

SilentStalker
February 18, 2013, 02:33 PM
I recommend that no matter what happens, stand firm. The Bill of Rights is the Bill of Rights and it is not to be trampled upon which is exactly what these people are doing. The Supreme Court has already ruled that no one type of weapon can be banned. We all have the right to keep and bear arms, enough said. So, as long as that ruling stands I do not see how an individual state law can really force people into this. If they try it, let them, then fight them in court. Get the NRA involved and see what they can do to help monetarily as you will need it. It will be expensive. Its time to take a stand. I do not live in CO but I feel for you guys.

P.S. I wish I could have heard Zak's letter.

Justin
February 18, 2013, 02:36 PM
This is the copy of the email I've just CC'd to a number of Representatives.

Good afternoon,

I am writing for two purposes.

One:
I urge you to oppose House Bill 1224, which bans standard capacity magazines.

Two:
There is a lot of misinformation being repeated about some of the mass shootings.

Only one gun used in Columbine could use magazines that held over ten rounds. The guns used by Eric Harris were not even capable of using standard capacity magazines. Yet, despite the fact that his 9mm Hi-Point Carbine could only use 10 round magazines, he still managed to fire that gun a total of 96 times, which required him to reload the gun a total of ten times.

The shotgun used by Harris was a traditional double-barreled hunting shotgun that can only hold a total of two rounds. Despite having a gun that could only hold two rounds, he fired that gun 25 times, which required him to reload the gun at least 12 times.

By comparison, Klebold only fired his Tec 9 "assault weapon" 55 times. Klebold's shotgun only held four or five rounds total, yet he managed to fire that gun 12 times, which means he would have had to reload at least four times.

SOURCE:
http://columbine-online.com/attack/columbine-attack-weapons-guns-knives-rifle-shotguns-tec-9.htm

Regarding the shooting of Gabrielle Giffords, the shooter, Jared Loughner was not stopped in the midst of a reload, rather he was stopped after his gun jammed. While even a rank amateur can learn to reload a handgun in a couple of seconds, it takes much longer to fix a gun that has malfunctioned.

SOURCE:
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jan/09/nation/la-na-0110-gabrielle-giffords-20110110


Please stop repeating the claims that these shootings, or any of the other attempted mass shootings would have been less deadly if the shooter only had a bag full of 10 round magazines.

Furthermore, 1224 could result in a fine of up to $1,000 or a year in prison for the mere possession of a metal box with a spring in it.

This bill will do nothing to prevent, stop, or even slow the next lunatic who attempts a mass shooting. I urge you to oppose this bill in the strongest of terms.

Thank you for your time.

Regards,
Justin Otis
El Paso County

CoRoMo
February 18, 2013, 02:39 PM
Ah, nuts, I had muted it for a business call for a minute
I just muted because Fields is coughing up bilge again.

Justin
February 18, 2013, 02:39 PM
The bill just passed.

coloradokevin
February 18, 2013, 02:40 PM
House Bill 1224 just passed. What a crappy day for Colorado.

Zak Smith
February 18, 2013, 02:42 PM
Still goes on to Senate, we can fight them there too.

Note that we got about 3 D's to vote against here in the House.

So we still have a chance.

CoRoMo
February 18, 2013, 02:47 PM
The task at hand...
Colorado Senate:

irene.aguilar.senate@state.co.us; david.balmer.senate@state.co.us; randy.baumgardner.senate@state.co.us; greg@gregbrophy.net; bill.cadman.senate@state.co.us; morgan.carroll.senate@state.co.us; larry.crowder.senate@state.co.us; angela.giron.senate@state.co.us; kevin.grantham.senate@state.co.us; lucia.guzman.senate@state.co.us; ted.harvey.senate@state.co.us; rollie.heath.senate@state.co.us; owen.hill.senate@state.co.us; mary.hodge.senate@state.co.us; senatorhudak@gmail.com; cheri.jahn.senate@state.co.us; mike.johnston.senate@state.co.us; senatormattjones@gmail.com; john.kefalas.senate@state.co.us; andy.kerr.senate@state.co.us; steve.king.senate@state.co.us; senatorlambert@comcast.net; kevin@kevinlundberg.com; vicki.marble.senate@state.co.us; john.morse.senate@state.co.us; linda.newell.senate@gmail.com; jeanne.nicholson.senate@state.co.us; senatorrenfroe@gmail.com; ellen.roberts.senate@state.co.us; mark.scheffel.senate@state.co.us; gail.schwartz.senate@gmail.com; pat.steadman.senate@state.co.us; lotochtrop@aol.com; nancy.todd.senate@state.co.us; jessie.ulibarri.senate@state.co.us

almostfree
February 18, 2013, 02:49 PM
Well, now I know whose campaigns to contribute against. I hope the next election is painful for house democrats that voted for this.

MachIVshooter
February 18, 2013, 03:35 PM
Schaeffer just likened smoking to rape, drunk driving and gun violence. I have no high road words for that woman.

CoRoMo
February 18, 2013, 03:48 PM
Dear xxxxxx,

Thank you for contacting me. After much reflection, reviewing the many emails I received, talking to many people, I decided to support the four gun safety bills today because I believe they move us further down the path of striking that balance between protecting our second amendment rights with concerns for public safety.

I appreciate hearing from so many people, and look forward to invigorating conversations in the future.

Sincerely,

Representative Tracy Kraft-Tharp
I then replied to the email and I might have been a bit impolite.

MBaneACP
February 18, 2013, 04:18 PM
Not that it helps a lot, but we did get some important mitigating language into 1229, the universal background check bill, to protect target shooting on public and private lands, as opposed to "legal" ranges. My Sweetie spearheaded that initiative. She also got language in to protect gunsmiths from the "illegal Transfer" provision. Big thanks to the Republicans who stepped up on this!

It is a dark day for Colorado, BUT THE FIGHT GOES ON!

Michael B

Larry Ashcraft
February 18, 2013, 04:31 PM
Angela Giron tried to have a town meeting on economics Saturday. Several gun owners were there to remind her: "You work for us!"

She declined to talk about gun control but promised to discuss it next Saturday. She says she's "still learning" about the issue. My son and I will be there. I think she can be swayed to our side if we have a good showing. She will definitely be voted out of office if she takes a gun control stance in this town, and we need to make sure she knows it.

almostfree
February 18, 2013, 04:45 PM
The Denver Post has a particularly poorly worded poll about companies such as Magpul leaving. It asks:

If Colorado passes legislation banning the possession of high-capacity gun clips, should Colorado-based manufacturers of such magazines leave the state?

Yes. Let them carry through with their recent threats to leave. Colorado doesn't need them here.

No. HB 1224 makes it clear they could still legally produce high-capacity clips to sell elsewhere, and Colorado needs the jobs.

Unsure. I'm somewhere in the middle.

How about yes they should leave the state because it is the right thing to do, but Colorado definitely needs the jobs.

MachIVshooter
February 18, 2013, 05:26 PM
Well, I can feel the raised tread pattern of the tire tracks on my back. They feel like "D"s.

LawScholar
February 18, 2013, 05:49 PM
I am crestfallen. I have spent years setting up a life for myself in Colorado.

I will be hoping against hope for victory in 2014.

dvlhntr
February 18, 2013, 06:06 PM
a very dark day.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BDaDhxVCMAAw6GM.jpg:large

folks please start (or continue) calling, writing and emailing Colorado Senate members.

Please keep it professional.

Please contact as many non-politically active people you know and help them become more active.

phonesysphonesys
February 18, 2013, 06:31 PM
Well they got there way and rammed their stuff through. They didn't care what we said. I hope that a lot of them are turned out at the next election. Been in a foul mood all day.
Semper Fi

N310toN170
February 18, 2013, 06:38 PM
I'm glad to have finally joined but sad to say that my first post on THR had to be the letter to the Senators and Governor:

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin

Unfortunately, the proposals of House Bill(s) 1224, 1226, 1228 & 1229 infringe greatly on liberties of tax paying, law abiding citizens but time and time again the facts show do very little for safety, temporary or otherwise. The Columbine shootings during the Brady Bill is a prime example of this.

Statistics and past events aside, a magazine restriction or any other legislation is rhetoric to those that have no intention of following within the guidelines of the law and are using these tools with the intention of breaking other laws.

If you compound passing of laws which have little to no bearing on the final outcome intended for safety the next consideration is that of economic principle. Denver is not exactly a booming economy and joining the likes of Chicago, Boston and New York for gun control measures pushes those contributing to the fiscal means away. Gun friendly businesses are disincented to come and those already established here are encouraged to leave. If not by law then absolutely by ethos. Not only does it deter business but also tourism and warrants consideration from out of state hunters, another major contributing revenue stream to the Colorado economy.

I strongly encourage you to consider the lack of results these measures are capable of achieving as well as the damage that they could inflict. This damage would have to be cleaned up by those monitoring these proceedings and willing to act via due process to reacquire our rights as granted per the Bill of Rights.

Zak Smith
February 18, 2013, 06:39 PM
UPDATED LIST OF SENATORS WHO ARE UP FOR RE-ELECTION

Here are the nine D senators that are in an election cycle in 2014. We only need three of them to vote against the bill(s) to kill them.

Irene.aguilar.senate@state.co.us
angela.giron.senate@state.co.us
lucia.guzman.senate@state.co.us
cheri.jahn.senate@state.co.us
john.morse.senate@state.co.us
Gail.Schwartz.senate@state.co.us
Jeanne.nicholson.senate@state.co.us
lois.tochtrop.senate@state.co.us
Andy.kerr.senate@state.co.us


Remember: be polite, don't make threats, tell them that you are an independent (aka unaffiliated) registered voter that actually votes.

Here are suggested talking points:

1) There is no evidence that limiting the capacity of factory magazines will improve public safety. This legislation is not well reasoned and will not have a positive effect on public safety. Your constituents wish you would spend as much effort on mental health related issues as you do with gun control. Mental health is the most significant issue involved in every mass shooting and the fact that our Democratic senators are largely ignoring it has not gone unnoticed.

2) This legislation will result in reductions in Colorado jobs at a time when the Colorado state Senate needs to support growth, not reduce it. We have two companies that have very publicly stated that they will leave Colorado if this legislation passes. This could result in the loss of up to 1000 Colorado jobs and the associated spend resulting from the business activities of those companies. Why have you abandoned a pro jobs policy for legislation that has been demonstrated to be ineffective and will reduce jobs?

3) The nine senators in the list above have to go through an election cycle in 2014. Given the state of the countries economy and that of Colorado, jobs and growth will be a significant election year issues. If the senators vote for this legislation that resulting economic impact "they will own." This is sure to be brought up in the election and independent voters are generally not impressed with Democratic party gun control dogma.

4) HB 1224 will limit law-abiding citizens' rights to use firearms for self-defense that are already in common use. Specifically: pistols and rifles with standard capacity magazines of 16 more more rounds. The Glock 17, 9mm is a common police and self-defense pistol that holds 17 in normal configuration. The AR-15 is a common police and self-defense rifle that holds 20 or 30 rounds in normal configuration. My county Sheriff, Sheriff Justin Smith, testified before the House that these two firearms, or those practically identical, are used ubiquitously by his officers and by citizens for self defense in Colorado.

CoRoMo
February 18, 2013, 06:42 PM
She has no clue what she's talking about.
Thank you for participating in the legislative process, I value your input.


First and foremost I want to assure you that NONE of the bills will result in restriction of the constitutionally guaranteed right to bear arms. These bills have not yet been referred to the Senate. When they do come to the Senate, I will look at all sides before I make any decisions.


Please feel free to contact me again with any further concerns.


Sincerely,



Senator Irene Aguilar, MD
ireneaguilar.md@gmail.com

Justin
February 18, 2013, 06:57 PM
I'm disappointed to see that Colorado Springs rep Tony Exum voted for the ban.

Well, I guess I know who to campaign against.

Justin
February 18, 2013, 06:58 PM
When do these laws go in front of the Senate for a vote?

Jon Coppenbarger
February 18, 2013, 07:00 PM
I lived in ca and had a gun shop in sacramento which we closed back in like 89 when all that BS was starting to get worse. The only thing that we had when we opened ws a wait period for a gun.
Hunted in colorado since the late 70's and bought property in CO with plans on moving and living here. Got lucky and moved with my job here in 98.

I can remember The pleasure of buying just about any gun I wanting and to be able to take it home the same day, wow I then knew how it was to live in a free state.

I came to CO because I wanted to live in a free state and live like the folks here in CO. Not like the scum who moved here to get away from where they came from just to change it back into the place they left.

For me at least I made it to retirement now and plan on selling the house in the next year. Looked at Sheridan last summer and plan on checking out some more areas up north this coming spring and summer. I did like it up there and sorry about CO but I lived the change in CA and see it slipping away here also.

Zak Smith
February 18, 2013, 07:01 PM
Justin I haven't been able to find them on the Senate schedule yet

Zak Smith
February 18, 2013, 07:02 PM
Here's what I wrote her in response

Senator Aguilar,

With respect, that is not true.

HB 1224 will limit law-abiding citizens' rights to use firearms for
self-defense that are already in common use. Specifically: pistols
and rifles with standard capacity magazines of 16 more more rounds.

The Glock 17, 9mm is a common police and self-defense pistol that
holds 17 in normal configuration. The AR-15 is a common police and
self-defense rifle that holds 20 or 30 rounds in normal configuration.
My county Sheriff, Sheriff Justin Smith, testified before the House
that these two firearms, or those practically identical, are used
ubiquitously by his officers and by citizens for self defense in
Colorado.

The recent Heller decision by the US Supreme Court held that firearms
that are in common use are protected by the 2nd Amendment.

Restricting use of these firearms in their default configurations
would be a infringement on 2nd Amendment!


On HB 1229, the universal background check bill, it is easy to imagine
a scenario where an FFL is not available in a locale or that the CBI
background checks are running a week or more behind (like they are
now). This effectively makes it impossible for a person to transfer
(not necessarily) purchase a firearm in a timely manner. A right
delayed is a right denied.


On the economic impact, HB 1224 alone will cripple an entire sector of
the Colorado economy, a sector that has been growing due to
innovation, manufacturing, and services over the last 5 years-- while
other sectors of our economy are floundering.

Thank you for your consideration in this matter.

Zak Smith
Fort Collins, CO

MachIVshooter
February 18, 2013, 07:29 PM
Letter sent to all nine of those senators (thanks, Zak!)

This is what I had to say:

Well, after having attended the committee hearings, testified, written letters and made phone calls only to be ignored like our county sheriffs were, I'll not waste text talking about why the bills HB12-1224, 1226, 1228 & 1229 are bad. We all know that they will do nothing to reduce crime, but will be an onus on the law abiding, possibly even ensnaring some who are not savvy in legalese.


No, instead I will remind you that you're up for re-election in 2 years, and though my note here is directed at all nine of you, some need to heed it even more; not all of you are in "safe" districts. Do you really want your name associated with bad gun control legislation in a state where 2/3 of voters are Republican or independent, and many Democrats are Kennedy Democrats who do not support this kind of legislation? I'm unaffiliated, but I can tell you that I know quite a few life-long democrats who, when having to choose between second amendment rights and all the social issues that make them democrats, will be turncoats.


Your colleagues in the house have overestimated their political capital and forgotten the kind of backlash gun control like this generates, especially in a Western state where we have always maintained a spirit of freedom and fierce independence. Don't let the doctored survey results fool you; This is NOT what the people of Colorado want. It's what a few radical progressives want, and they're willing to sacrifice members of their own party to get it.


I urge a "NO" vote on HB13-1224, HB13-1226, HB13-1228 and HB13-1229. Do what's right and what the people of Colorado want, not what is being pushed by east coast progressives. This is not New York, not Chicago. Let's keep it that way.

CmdrSlander
February 18, 2013, 07:30 PM
http://s4.postimage.org/bfyxjwlcd/ratsfromasinkingship.png
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=8752543#post8752543

dvlhntr
February 18, 2013, 07:39 PM
if these "steps in the right direction" keep going; urinating yourself (http://www.uccs.edu/pusafety/what-to-do-if-you-are-attacked-.html) might just be the last line of defense.

N310toN170
February 18, 2013, 07:42 PM
The original message was received at Mon, 18 Feb 2013 16:06:39 -0700
from na3sys009amx227.postini.com [74.125.149.111]

----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
<lois.tochtrop.senate@state.co.us>
(reason: 554 5.4.6 Too many hops)

----- Transcript of session follows -----
554 5.4.6 Too many hops 26 (25 max): from <***@comcast.net> via localhost, to <lois.tochtrop.senate@state.co.us>
Reporting-MTA: dns; oit-pp03.state.co.us
Arrival-Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 16:06:39 -0700

Final-Recipient: RFC822; lois.tochtrop.senate@state.co.us
Action: failed
Status: 5.4.6
Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 554 5.4.6 Too many hops
Last-Attempt-Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 16:24:57 -0700


The original message was received at Mon, 18 Feb 2013 16:05:27 -0700
from na3sys009amx178.postini.com [74.125.149.159]

----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
<governor.hickenlooper@state.co.us>
(reason: 554 5.4.6 Too many hops)

----- Transcript of session follows -----
554 5.4.6 Too many hops 26 (25 max): from <***@comcast.net> via localhost, to <governor.hickenlooper@state.co.us>
Reporting-MTA: dns; oit-pp04.state.co.us
Arrival-Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 16:05:27 -0700

Final-Recipient: RFC822; governor.hickenlooper@state.co.us
Action: failed
Status: 5.4.6
Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 554 5.4.6 Too many hops
Last-Attempt-Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 16:26:04 -0700

Zak Smith
February 18, 2013, 08:17 PM
http://demigodllc.com/hickenlooper_magban4.jpg

Derek Zeanah
February 18, 2013, 08:22 PM
Make that smaller and we'll run it non-stop to Colorado viewers come election time.

Zak Smith
February 18, 2013, 08:22 PM
Here are the phone numbers too

Irene.aguilar.senate@state.co.us- 303-866-4852
angela.giron.senate@state.co.us- 303-866-4878
lucia.guzman.senate@state.co.us- 303-866-4862
cheri.jahn.senate@state.co.us- 303-866-4856
john.morse.senate@state.co.us- 303-866-6364
Gail.Schwartz.senate@state.co.us- 303-866-4871
Jeanne.nicholson.senate@state.co.us- 303-866-4873
lois.tochtrop.senate@state.co.us- 303-866-4863
Andy.kerr.senate@state.co.u- 303-866-4859

PLEASE BE POLITE

Rembrandt
February 18, 2013, 08:59 PM
No more hunting trips to Colorado for us, we're going else where.....we won't support a state or their economy that doesn't understand "shall not be infringed".

skeeziks
February 18, 2013, 09:17 PM
DENVER (AP) — Limits on the size of ammunition magazines and universal background checks passed the Colorado House on Monday, during a second day of emotional debates that has drawn attention from the White House as lawmakers try to address recent mass shootings.

The bills were among four that the Democratic-controlled House passed amid strong resistance from Republicans, who were joined by a few Democrats to make some of the votes close.

The proposed ammunition restrictions limit magazines to 15 rounds for firearms, and eight for shotguns. Three Democrats joined all Republicans voting no on the bill, but the proposal passed 34-31.

"Enough is enough. I'm sick and tired of bloodshed," said Democratic Rep. Rhonda Fields, a sponsor of the bill and representative of the district where the shootings at an Aurora theater happened last summer. Fields' son was also fatally shot in 2005.
=========================================================

8-rounds for shotguns? Are they kidding me? Yeah...that's real logical.

Obama is getting just what he wants...State by State.

SigSour
February 18, 2013, 09:26 PM
I am really, REALLY disappointed. I moved from my hometown of New York City to Colorado, one of the reasons was because of the freedom here. My wife has been asking if I wanted to move to HER hometown which is in Georgia.. maybe I will take her up on it now.

I emailed every senator who supposedly worked for me, got one form response back. Unfortunately "we the people" are the only ones who think the Government actually WORKS for the people

mrvco
February 18, 2013, 09:37 PM
What I find sad is that while I was buying some clay targets in Walmart yesterday afternoon, there was a guy (normal looking, clean-cut and articulate) staring at the ammo cabinet in disbelief who asked me where all the 22LR and .40 S&W ammo was kept... he literally had NO idea what was going on.

Of course the dimwit employee who walked up was convinced that the ammo shortage was due to the manufacturers getting behind because they all took vacation over the holidays.

We are (ultimately) doomed.

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