What do you consider a good grouping for...


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SilentStalker
February 10, 2013, 02:23 PM
Ok guys I am just wondering what you guys would consider a good grouping from a 16" carbine at 100 yards with open iron sights using ball ammo? I have been consistently getting 2-3" groups sometimes 4-5" at that range with open sights. And even though I am not that old I wasn't blessed with the greatest of eyes but I sure am glad I have them. I mean I can see the target at that range but I cannot make out a bullseye on a 10-12" target. Meaning I am for what I think is the center at that range. I just don't know if this is good enough or not. I am used to shooting with bolt actions and high powered scopes, not open sights. And 2-3" spreads is not what I consider really precise but may be perfectly acceptable under these circumstances I don't know.

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T2K
February 10, 2013, 02:35 PM
I think on a fixed bench rest (rifle is fixed in position), 1" would be the best you might get with normal ammo. In other words, I think that's the mechanical / ballistic best case scenario with non-match ammo.

Seated on a bench with an ACOG (3 or 4x scope) on my 16" carbine I get 1.5- 2.5" groups. If you shot 2-3" groups standing (offhand) with iron sights I would consider it really good.

Opinions on this may differ widely!

SilentStalker
February 10, 2013, 02:43 PM
Oh I must add that I was seated while done this and resting the rifle on bags. If I could get 2-3" groups like that standing then I would be really happy with that lol. I am sure the group variation was me anyways and not the rifle. Even resting o bags I still have a tendency to move the rifle some. The only true way to rule out me though I guess would be to put the rifle in some kind of a rest or vise and pull the trigger that way. I am also not used to the terrible AR triggers.

rugerdude
February 10, 2013, 02:57 PM
Sounds like you're doing fine.

To qualify expert on the Marine Corps rifle qual. you need to consistently hit a 20x40" silhouette at 500 yards. To do this every time only requires that you shoot a 4" group. Now, of course there are other factors involved and it isn't off a bench, but still, using a sling properly in the prone position is quite stable.

That's about the only standard that I can really come up with for shooting an iron sighted AR.

I know sometimes it feels intimidating when someone posts a 0.5" group shot with their J-frame snubbie at 400 yards, but I always consider my own accuracy needs. It sounds like you're shooting to the point that your eyes are what are holding you back, or phrased another way, if you can see it, you can hit it.

palmrose2
February 10, 2013, 03:45 PM
Keep in mind that not all open sights are created equal. A small orifice peep has the potential for moa or better.

Jackal
February 10, 2013, 04:32 PM
Fist sized.

browningguy
February 10, 2013, 04:37 PM
If you are getting 2-3" groups with milspec ball ammo that's plenty good.

aubie515
February 10, 2013, 04:55 PM
Especially if you are talking irons. If you want precision, but a precision rifle with good optics...if you want to hit man sized targets, your groups are acceptable.

JEB
February 10, 2013, 05:32 PM
shooting irons at 100 yards with a good rest, on really good days i can get lucky and shoot a nice little 1" group, but that is not the norm for me. if i can get a consistent 3" group, i am usually pretty happy. if i shoot 5-6" standing off-hand, i am plenty satisfied with that too.

oldgold
February 10, 2013, 06:00 PM
Seems to me that without knowing what the rifle is capable of with a good scope, then it's hard to judge how good your groups are with the peeps. It may be that that's the best that rifle shoots.

Personally I'd consider >2" groups with iron sights to be pretty darned good.

kimberkid
February 14, 2013, 11:05 PM
Seems to me that without knowing what the rifle is capable of with a good scope, then it's hard to judge how good your groups are with the peeps. It may be that that's the best that rifle shoots.

Personally I'd consider >2" groups with iron sights to be pretty darned good.
^^^^^
This.

When I was reloading and shooting AR15 service rifle matches, I scoped the gun and shooting off the bench I worked up the best load for the gun which was around 3/4" at 100yds then I could tell what the gun was capable of and how good (bad) I was ...

madcratebuilder
February 15, 2013, 09:14 AM
Ok guys I am just wondering what you guys would consider a good grouping from a 16" carbine at 100 yards with open iron sights using ball ammo? I have been consistently getting 2-3" groups sometimes 4-5" at that range with open sights.

That's average for a mil-spec barrel and ammo.

A match grade barrel/ammo well do better. Someone who shoots three or four days a week well do better, but the average guy that goes shooting once or twice a month well be doing good to get a 4" group.

Remember internet groups are always smaller than rifle range groups, normally be a factor of 2X.

Hokkmike
February 15, 2013, 09:17 AM
I'm with Jackal on this one, Fist size.

SlamFire1
February 15, 2013, 10:48 AM
I don't know what type of carbine you are shooting but you cannot shoot inside the inherent accuracy of the bullet or the barrel.

The acceptable accuracy for military rifles has always been in the 3-4 MOA range. Accuracy criteria is based on hit probability analysis. There are a few that shoot inside this, but 3-4 MOA is inside the hold of 99% of troops. It is more important to make the rifle cheap, reliable, easy to maintain.

Target shooters improve on this with much better bullets, mechanisms, but it costs a lot of money.

And shooting is a skill, it takes lots of work and discipline to shoot well.

The_Armed_Therapist
February 15, 2013, 10:51 AM
I have been consistently getting 2-3" groups sometimes 4-5" at that range with open sights.

Considering the eye sight, no advanced optics, using ball ammo, I'd say quite good, even bench rest. I have great eye sight and don't usually do a whole lot better than that. The rifle is probably capable of slightly better, but that would certainly be good enough for me.

holdencm9
February 15, 2013, 12:20 PM
I'd say that is pretty good. Especially with irons and the shorter sight radius of the carbine. I can't stand the irons on mine, the front sight covers up the entire target; hard to be precise. You can always swap out the front sight post for a finer one, or get a smaller rear peep like the target shooters do, but that's not really the point of the carbine.

I haven't really stretched the legs on mine yet, but at the indoor range I go to, I am pretty pleased if I can get down around an inch group (for 20 rounds) at 25 yards. And that is standing, but putting the handguard and my elbow on the table for stability.

Warp
February 15, 2013, 01:29 PM
Ok guys I am just wondering what you guys would consider a good grouping from a 16" carbine at 100 yards with open iron sights using ball ammo? I have been consistently getting 2-3" groups sometimes 4-5" at that range with open sights. And even though I am not that old I wasn't blessed with the greatest of eyes but I sure am glad I have them. I mean I can see the target at that range but I cannot make out a bullseye on a 10-12" target. Meaning I am for what I think is the center at that range. I just don't know if this is good enough or not. I am used to shooting with bolt actions and high powered scopes, not open sights. And 2-3" spreads is not what I consider really precise but may be perfectly acceptable under these circumstances I don't know.

I would be unhappy with a 5" group at 100 yards shooting off of sandbags.

I'd say 4" or better from a field position. It's a good standard. (4 MOA from an unsupported field position, prone)

tuj
February 15, 2013, 01:39 PM
If it makes you feel better, I was shooting my new 20" bull barrel AR at 100 yards and getting around 1.5"-2" 5-shot groups using a 8-32x scope from a front rest and rear bag using XM193 55gr ball ammo. I have been told it will do considerably better with heavier match ammo.

savanahsdad
February 15, 2013, 01:51 PM
what type of gun ? and whay cal.? a mil. spec, AR in 223 ball ammo I'd say "not bad" a 308 carbine bolt gun ,I'd be unhappy with , with my 44mag carbine with RN bullets , a 3" group at 100 yards would be great !

so what are you shooting ?

wally247
February 15, 2013, 06:53 PM
With what you are shooting I would say that's fine. A bolt action and scope like you are used to (and me too) I would be unhappy with it. LOL

BrainOnSigs
February 15, 2013, 06:56 PM
Not apples to apples but thru my Daniel Defense DDM4 with a 4x ACOG my latest batch of XM193 seems to shoot quite well.

http://brainonsigs.smugmug.com/Other/Things-that-go-BANG/i-vwGpxv5/0/XL/ACOG%20XM193%20Target-1-XL.jpg

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