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plodder
February 10, 2013, 09:52 PM
So I'm running some .223 through my progressive tonight and came across a piece of Lake City brass that I had apparently not swaged the primer pocket enough on, so it did one of those crooked, smear jobs on seating the primer. Of course, I didn't catch it until it went through and had the bullet seated & crimped.

So, I dutifully stick the defect in my impact type bullet puller and start whacking away. 8-10 good strokes and still no bullet, but then the primer flies out of the puller and I smell something burning.

No bang, the powder still in the case, but the primer on the floor had definately been hot. I feel lucky that the powder was not ignited, but what happened?

Anybody out there with similar experience?

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noylj
February 10, 2013, 09:59 PM
Did you use a shell holder instead of the collet with the hole in the center?
What did the primer hit? You had a crushed primer and, maybe, some primer compound powder. Surprised there was no bang. Done this many times myself, but never had a primer fly out.

plodder
February 10, 2013, 10:05 PM
I was using my cheapo Franford Arsenal puller and the collet for the puller. That leaves a hole above the base of the shell & primer when being pulled, so I stuff some wadded up paper towel in the cap before I screw it onto the puller.

ArchAngelCD
February 10, 2013, 11:19 PM
I was using my cheapo Franford Arsenal puller and the collet for the puller. That leaves a hole above the base of the shell & primer when being pulled, so I stuff some wadded up paper towel in the cap before I screw it onto the puller.
You should not change the design of any tool that has to do with powder/primers and a possible explosion. I have never heard of anything ever lighting when being pulled.

kingcheese
February 10, 2013, 11:25 PM
I normally let the bullets I'm gonna pull set in motor oil about a week, before i even touch them. most the time the oil will make it inside the case

ArchAngelCD
February 10, 2013, 11:27 PM
I normally let the bullets I'm gonna pull set in motor oil about a week, before i even touch them. most the time the oil will make it inside the case
IMO that's a huge waste of time and it also destroys the components. Most times when I pull a round or 20 I want to reuse the components, all of them.

tcanthonyii
February 10, 2013, 11:45 PM
I have the frankford arsenal puller as well and it works quite well. What's the point of the papertowel?

Placing in motor oil seems extremely over kill.

boommer
February 11, 2013, 01:18 AM
YAHH he is going to blow himself up, NOT if, but WHEN !! I really don't understand if some of you guys think this this is a game, you do stupid stuff and this will KILL YOU!! or if your lucky NOT. I say this not to be mean or like I know everything but I DON'T !! SMALL things will and get you as well. The mechanics of loading need to be respected .

Mike 27
February 11, 2013, 01:33 AM
I do not know other than the mangled primer began detonation from the whacking. I do not understand the paper towel but doubt that is the problem, unless a static build up occurred. I invested in a collet style puller some time ago and it has been invaluable. After your close call it may be an option. The wife made no argument as she always left the garage when I was playing whack-o-mole....

kingcheese
February 11, 2013, 06:28 AM
I don't reuse, the powder or primer, when i pull a bullet, i also don't make that much, and have only pulled about 10 total

plodder
February 11, 2013, 07:50 PM
The piece of paper towel I loosely place under the collet cap is simply to keep loose powder grains from flying all over the place, as can occur if there is a displaced or missing primer and there is powder in the case. I doubt that it could have caused any type of ignition or detonation, but I will certainly check it out.

Boomer: I appreciate your eloquent plea for safety and will re-evaluate my procedure. In the meantime, please double check your medication dosage levels.

Captaingyro
February 13, 2013, 12:08 PM
There are some worrisome details in this story. You say you place a piece of paper towel under the collet cap to keep powder from escaping through the flash hole and flying around. However, if you're disassembling so many rounds with crushed or missing primers, you should seriously re-evaluate some of your loading practices.

Also, with the paper towel in place, how did the primer end up on the floor? It should have been captured by the paper. Some pieces of this puzzle are missing.

From the clues you've given us, this is the most likely scenario: As the primer was crunched, the priming compound was pulverized and (luckily) began to smolder rather than explode. Shortly thereafter, you put the still-smoldering round into your puller, covered it with the aforementioned paper towel, and began to hammer away. The hot primer became dislodged, burned its way through the towel (which was what you smelled burning), and ended up on your floor.

SSN Vet
February 13, 2013, 03:23 PM
He didn't say he pulls a lot of bullets... that was inferred by CG, but not stated by the OP.

Just about anybody who uses the Franklin or RCBS kinetic pullers (if they're paying attention and have working ears) will tell you that when the bullet drops, powder often flies out from the gaps in-between the collet leaves. I personally don't get that excited about a little powder on the floor, but this spillage is inherent to the puller design.

I doubt the paper towel contributed to this at all.

My guess is that the anvil in the crunched, sideways mounted primer moved under the dynamic shock forces related to "whacking" and pinched some crushed primer compound enough to ignite it.

Perhaps in the future, you should just yank the bullet with a pair of channel locks and ditch it or get a press mounted bullet puller (and collets for every single caliber you load :( ). Pulling light .223 bullets with a kinetic whack-a-mole puller is no fun.... much worth a quarter imo just to yank and ditch the bullet.

edfardos
February 13, 2013, 03:39 PM
can an unsupported primer ignite the cartridge, or would the primer simply fly across the room? As soon as the primer ejects, there's not enough pressure to go boom?

Captaingyro
February 13, 2013, 04:27 PM
powder often flies out from the gaps in-between the collet leaves

The OP specifically stated it happens when he has a "displaced or missing primer", i.e., open flash hole.

My guess is that the anvil in the crunched, sideways mounted primer moved under the dynamic shock forces related to "whacking" and pinched some crushed primer compound enough to ignite it.

The specific action that ignited the primer compound - cockeyed seating or pounding - is a trivial distinction, and doesn't change the scenario.

chris in va
February 13, 2013, 04:37 PM
Next time you load a mangled primer, even with powder and bullet, toss the whole thing. Don't try to salvage a .25 round.

leadchucker
February 13, 2013, 08:45 PM
... so it did one of those crooked, smear jobs on seating the primer...

The primer was seated sideways.

...So, I dutifully stick the defect in my impact type bullet puller and start whacking away. 8-10 good strokes and still no bullet, but then the primer flies out of the puller...

The sideways seated primer was not firmly anchored in the hole, and was shaken loose by the impacts.

... and I smell something burning. No bang, the powder still in the case, but the primer on the floor had definately been hot...

The active part of the bent and mangled primer was likely cracked and fragmented. What was left of that stuff partly ignited, likely after it was shaken loose from the case. What hot gases that were produced obviously didn't get directed through the flash hole. (fortunately)

I'm guessing that a primer is relatively stable as long as it is not distorted too much, but that all bets are off when it gets bent up in ways it wasn't designed to do.

FWIW, I would have probably disassembled the round the same way the OP did. I may rethink that policy now.

Elkins45
February 14, 2013, 03:50 PM
YAHH he is going to blow himself up, NOT if, but WHEN !! I really don't understand if some of you guys think this this is a game, you do stupid stuff and this will KILL YOU!! or if your lucky NOT. I say this not to be mean or like I know everything but I DON'T !! SMALL things will and get you as well. The mechanics of loading need to be respected .
I'm curious what the "stupid stuff" was that he did?

Certaindeaf
February 14, 2013, 03:53 PM
So I'm running some .223 through my progressive tonight and came across a piece of Lake City brass that I had apparently not swaged the primer pocket enough on, so it did one of those crooked, smear jobs on seating the primer. Of course, I didn't catch it until it went through and had the bullet seated & crimped.

So, I dutifully stick the defect in my impact type bullet puller and start whacking away. 8-10 good strokes and still no bullet, but then the primer flies out of the puller and I smell something burning.

No bang, the powder still in the case, but the primer on the floor had definately been hot. I feel lucky that the powder was not ignited, but what happened?

Anybody out there with similar experience?
no.

SSN Vet
February 14, 2013, 04:11 PM
The OP specifically stated it happens when he has a "displaced or missing primer", i.e., open flash hole.

yup.... I interpreted that to mean that these are the specific scenarios that lead him to use the bullet puller.

Primer or no pimer.... if you use the whack-a-mole, powder will come out between the collet gaps when the bullet finally drops. These things aren't like dead blow hammers.... they bounce sharply and whatever's inside gets "all shook up" :p

The gaps between the collet segments are many times larger than a primer flash hole... though I supose a few grains could bounce out of there as well.

Either way, this is kind of a freak event. I've certainly never heard of a primer igniting while pulling a bullet in a kinetic puller. And there are certainly are a lot of them out there, getting used more than anybody would like to admit. :eek:

So I don't think there is any reason to think that using kinetic pullers with normally seated primers in the case represent any real danger. I think the OP's situation is definately related to the primer being smushed and cock-eyed in the hole.

dagger dog
February 14, 2013, 04:15 PM
The hammer is made to remove bullets from properly primed cases without setting off the primer !

jcwit
February 14, 2013, 07:07 PM
YAHH he is going to blow himself up, NOT if, but WHEN !! I really don't understand if some of you guys think this this is a game, you do stupid stuff and this will KILL YOU!! or if your lucky NOT. I say this not to be mean or like I know everything but I DON'T !! SMALL things will and get you as well. The mechanics of loading need to be respected .

If in fact this was truly the case the lawyers would have been all over these bullet pullers years ago and no one would find them in the market place.

Further more attempting to deactivate a cartridge prier to pulling the bullet is just a total waste of components and money, but then it is your money.

leadchucker
February 14, 2013, 07:48 PM
I'm sure it has happened before, but has anyone heard a reliable account of a round lighting off inside a kinetic puller?

plodder
February 15, 2013, 09:58 AM
Leadchucker: Your recounting of the situation is spot on. I'm sorry that I may have left out a few details in the OP.

I do not regularly have the need to employ the kinetic puller like this, but when I am running a large batch of .223 I often have brass that I may have picked up at the range from my last shooting session mixed in with my "own" stuff. If some of that brass was MilSurp or similar, it would have swaged primer pockets. During my case prep process I will pass each case across a primer pocket cutter I have installed on my RCBS case prep center. Sometimes I do not cut enough of the swage on the first pass and when these cases get fed through my Dillon 650XL they get to station 2 for automatic primer seating. I can usually feel when the primer seating process is not kosher, but the case in question was not unusually hard on the backstroke. When inspecting the batch I noticed that the primer was partially seated, but distorted in the pocket.

It is quite likely that the primer just happened to dislodge from it's partially seated condition at the same time as the bullet was released during my thrashing episode and somehow ignited into a slow burn ignition. (again, it did not go Bang or even sizzle)

I do appreciate all the advice and cautionary warnings and I seriously have re-evaluated my proceedures and my attention to the details. I will be looking for a deal on a non-Kinetic bullet puller because I am fairly certain that I will be pulling a few more bullets before my career is over. I'm just too cheap to pitch a perfectly good bullet and piece of brass.

I am not a young man, but I am still learning and if my experience can help someone else avoid disaster, I am happy to humble myself by exposing my foibles as a bad example.

Captaingyro
February 15, 2013, 02:13 PM
We never stop learning. Thanks for sharing.

ArchAngelCD
February 16, 2013, 03:49 AM
I'm sure it has happened before, but has anyone heard a reliable account of a round lighting off inside a kinetic puller?
I have never seen or heard of one!

rsnell
February 16, 2013, 05:47 PM
Additional information can be found in the April 2013 "Shooting Times" on page 10.

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