As Much As I Believe In The RKBA, I Don't Think A Firearm Would Have Helped This Time


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Mama06
March 10, 2004, 09:14 AM
A Very Sad Story (http://www.assaultweb.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=42;t=015715;p=0)

Instead of pasting the entire story that I found, I thought it best to post a link. I don't think even my very awesome .45 would have helped in this situation...and that is really frightening.

I have a photo posted on the 5th reply to the thread. This woman was TINY!!! And her hands, that were trained to heal, are now rendered useless.

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Werewolf
March 10, 2004, 09:56 AM
Seems to me all she'd have to do is take her evidence to the State's Attorney General and the State's Bureau of Investigation (assuming it has one) and have them do their thing.

If they refuse then a trip to the local FBI and/or Federal Prosecutor would probably get results. The Feds especially like taking down corrupt local officials.

A Doctor ought to be smart enough to know this.

I'm not saying it would be easy to bring these scum down but going to the local courts first was not a smart thing to do.

Eskimo Jim
March 10, 2004, 10:08 AM
A gun is never a bad thing to have around within your control.

I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

I hope that the scum that did this to the doctor rot.

-Jim

sturmruger
March 10, 2004, 10:13 AM
That is the most depressing story I have ever heard.

natedog
March 10, 2004, 10:28 AM
No, a gun would not have helped in that situation...You cannot shoot police (even JBTs), even if they are acting unConstitutionally. No one said a gun is a universal ticket to safety.

Mama06
March 10, 2004, 10:29 AM
I agree, Eskimo Jim...it is always better to have a firearm...but unfortunately, it..the tool...would have been useless for the doctor.


Werewolf, you are right, doctors are generally smart people...but even smart folks can be ignorant of the best way to act legally. Doctors and other healthcare
professionals are accustomed to going through the 'proper chain of command' in hospitals, perhaps that is why she acted on the local level first.

Evil_Ed
March 10, 2004, 10:51 AM
I don't know what to say... I am completely disgusted by the whole affair. I hope the officers involved suffer severe penalties.

Shocking stuff...

Blain
March 10, 2004, 10:53 AM
You cannot shoot police (even JBTs), even if they are acting unConstitutionally.

Anyone who tries to inflict serious bodily harm upon me, or my family, is going to be dealt with through the same consequence.

Carlos Cabeza
March 10, 2004, 10:53 AM
Insert movie quote/ Goddamn Missourah scum ! / movie quote off

Harry Tuttle
March 10, 2004, 10:58 AM
we are obviously only seeing one side of this tale

i'm sure the officers involved have their own version of the events

i can't see the LEOs involved running her off the road just because she arranged for a prisoner to get hospitalized.

In May 2001, Dr. Ramona Miller was summoned to the Camden County Correctional Center (hereinafter "CCCC") by a prisoner who was having health problems. As a part of Dr. Miller's Osteopathic oath (similar to the Hypocratic oath), she responded to this cry for medical attention, even though she had never ventured into a prison before.


Dr. Miller also discovered that the reason Mr. Mason summoned for her assistance was because Mr. Mason, a former bounty hunter with the County, claimed that Camden County was full of corrupt officials, and had specific proof thereof.

MrAcheson
March 10, 2004, 11:19 AM
Yes we are only seeing one side of the story. On the other hand its a pretty damning side. Even if only a fraction of this stuff is true, then a serious shakedown needs to occur. I don't see a woman maiming herself to bring forward a false court case.

Hopefully this will be taken care of by the state. Otherwise the formation of a Committee for Public Vigilance might become necessary.

Baba Louie
March 10, 2004, 11:42 AM
Doctor who criticized jail's care sentenced in traffic stop

LEBANON - A doctor who said she feared law enforcement after criticizing a jail's medical care was sentenced to six months in jail for resisting arrest during a traffic stop.Ramona Miller of Versailles also was fined $500 during her Monday court appearance. She was immediately released on $5,000 bond, pending a possible appeal."I think we have to appeal - otherwise I have to go to jail," Miller said. after leaving the jail.

From the Feb 25 KC Star, page B10

Obviously a jury found her guilty of resisting arrrest but they dropped the other charges. In MO it is illegal to resist arrest, even an illegal arrest, by LE. With no witnesses other than deputies... whaddyagonnado?

PATH
March 10, 2004, 11:49 AM
Facts should be determined and appropropriate actions taken. We have not heard the LEO side of the issue. Does anyone know where to find the other side of the story?

Sindawe
March 10, 2004, 11:56 AM
Just when reports of JBT running amuk start to into the background tapestry in my head, and I start to look upon police in a nuetral light, I read ANOTHER report of JBT running amuk. :cuss: OK, as natedog stated, one really can not shoot JBT acting unConstitutionally. OK, hit them in court. Oh wait..that does not work too well either most of the time, "official immunity" and all that bunk. So what to do?


Frankly, I'm in the same camp as Blain. Anybody attempting to or actually serious bodily harm on myself or my loved ones is gonna have a REAL bad day. :fire: Perhaps, if more of the JBT ended up pushing up daisies instead of getting a nod, wink and slap from the courts there would be fewer JBT running amuk. A certain comment made by a Mr. Jefferson 200+ years ago comes to mind.

oldfart
March 10, 2004, 12:09 PM
About forty years ago, when I still had more energy than memories, I went on a series of backpacking trips into the Sierra Nevada mountains with some friends. One such trip took us over an eleven thousand foot pass and down to a small lake that was full of hungry trout. We camped there for several days, living on freeze-dried food fortified with fresh trout.

We cooked over an open fire made from dead pine scrub that had lived briefly in cracks in the rocky landscape, fallen and dried in the thin mountain air. That wood was full of resin and burned both hot and smoky. In a short time we all smelled from the fire and from our sweaty exertions. Since it was a problem we all shared, none of us was offended by the odor emanating from the others.

One day though, a large group of campers came through. Among them were several rather pretty young women. We decided to take baths in an attempt to improve our images. We found a small pond of clear water among the rocks and decided to make it our bathtub. We knew the water would be cold because there was a snowdrift on the shaded side, still dripping ice water into the pool. _ We took our clothes off and perched, like a trio of pelicans on a dock rail, eyeing the water and each waiting for someone else to make a move first.

Finally one made the leap and landed with a great splash. He immediately came up and with eyes as big as saucers, said, "Come on in. It isn't too bad!"

I knew he was lying, but I went in anyhow and was rewarded with the most intensely cold water I could ever remember. It can best be described as 'cold enough to give me two belly-buttons.' I washed very fast. Our third member hit the water and climbed out so fast, I'm not sure to this day he even got wet.

The point of all this is to compare us "patriots" to the pelican-like behavior of myself and my friends. We all know what has to be done to make our runaway government take us seriously, yet we're all waiting for someone else to take the first step. Then, when someone does take that step, we stand back, watching to see if he's successful. Of course, he never is, because he has been left alone by all his friends, all his relatives and anyone else who might be able to share his burden.

I'm no different either. I didn't show up at Ruby Ridge or Waco. I did go to Klamath Falls, but I left my rifle in the car and maintained a pretty low profile. I was waiting for someone else to take the plunge first.

Are we all going to be the same way; waiting and watching while a few of us either gain enough courage or lose enough patience to finally make a lonely, losing stand against tyranny? Will we, after hearing of still another patriot getting killed or imprisoned, quietly curtail our internet activity, hoping Big Brother will ignore us? Maybe we'll let our membership in the NRA or GOA lapse-- that'll show we're really behind the government, won't it? Maybe we can flood their offices with e-mail or tie up their phone lines-- Boy! That'll get 'em!

Many of us use quotes from the founders as 'sig lines' in our posts. They're good and they make good points. I think a quote from a German Minister by the name of Martin Neimoller is best though. We are being split away from our friends, relatives and supporters. One by one, like fat steers, we're being cut off from the rest of the herd and led to slaughter.

boofus
March 10, 2004, 12:11 PM
If some powermonger cop decides to make me a victim, I'll have no qualms about unloading my FiveseveN on him. The badge doesn't automatically make him right no matter what he does. I just need to find someone that can sell me that FN wonder ammo now. :scrutiny:

There is currently a thread on www.packing.org where someone mailed the ATF and asked if the FiveseveN and its ammunition were really illegal for civvies to own.

Here's the surprise... The pistol is civilian legal with 10 round magazines and all types of ammunition are legal to possess! Even the SS190 steel tipped AP ammo. You just can't import it, manufacture it, or use it in a crime. But possession and use in self defense is apparently legal! So if you can get a FFL to import it and sell it to you, you are not breaking the law!

Mama06
March 10, 2004, 12:15 PM
Here are some other links:

Doctor vs. deputies: dispute over violent arrest (http://www.drmillertruth.org/Newspaper_Articles/News_Leader_8-17_Dr_vs_deputies_dispute_over_violent_arrest/Springfield_News_Leader_8-17_Doctor_vs_deputies.html)


Springfield doctor faces trial, says deputies were out to get her (http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/local/6458314.htm)


Deputies beat me, says doctor facing traffic trial (http://www.news-leader.com/today/0925-Deputiesbe-174435.html)

Doctor a victim of sheriff's anger (http://springfield.news-leader.com/opinions/letters/0104-Doctoravic-259137.html)


From what I can tell, those who actually know this doctor believe her. She has no history of problems with the law, she filed charges against the sheriff's dept. because an inmate wasn't receiving proper care, and there was no way on God's green earth the the injuries and damage to her vehicle could have been necessary to get a 110 pound woman subdued (IMHO).

I'm having a difficult time finding the other half of the story...sorry...I tried.

Ex-Doc
March 10, 2004, 12:29 PM
This looks more like an "A-Team" storyline than the real truth. The feact that she has a web site described as the "truth" about the incident leads me to believe she is looney. First she may not be a "real" doctor ie- M.D., which still doesn't give the right to resist. She sounds more like an O.D. that would have perscribed aroma therapy, massages and such for the prisoner. I'd like to see any dash cam footage before I bash the LEO's for dealing with a possible paranoid schyzoid like this one.....

cordex
March 10, 2004, 12:56 PM
Mama's first article has a lot of info from the cop's side.

Presented without comment from http://www.drmillertruth.org/Newspaper_Articles/News_Leader_8-17_Dr_vs_deputies_dispute_over_violent_arrest/Springfield_News_Leader_8-17_Doctor_vs_deputies.html

In court records, however, Camden County officers say Miller was driving erratically, and became so irrational and combative during a traffic stop at 12:49 a.m. Aug. 28 near Lake Road 5-35 in Sunrise Beach that one officer had to break out her window, force her from her truck, place her on the ground and handcuff her before taking her to jail.

In her upcoming trial, which was moved to Lebanon in Laclede County, Miller faces charges of resisting arrest, failure to yield to an emergency vehicle and failure to drive on the right half of the roadway. Punishment for the misdemeanor charges can include fines of up to $1,000 and a jail sentence of up to one year.

Camden County Sheriff John Page said an internal review of the officers' actions concluded they used acceptable force on Miller after she refused to present her driver's license and get out of the truck.

A department captain and a patrol sergeant conducted the review, he said.

"We have a use-of-force policy: Only use what force is necessary to handle the situation, no more than necessary," Page said.

"After review, the force necessary was used to remove her from the vehicle," Page said. "I can't say we've got a policy on dealing with people failing to exit the vehicle because we've never had a person fail to exit a vehicle or refuse to show a driver's license — we've had people run from us.

"This was a bizarre situation for us," Page added.

Bryan Reid, training director of the Missouri Police Chiefs Association, said forced entry into a vehicle is an option in an age when officers have been shot and killed during traffic stops.

"I'd say it's probably becoming more common because of the nature of the crimes we're running into and the escalated alert on the side of officers' safety," Reid said.

No one — including Miller — asked him to conduct a formal investigation of the officers' actions, he added. Miller has not filed a civil lawsuit against the officers.

Miller did ask the Missouri Highway Patrol to investigate the incident, but in keeping with policy, it did not investigate because neither the Camden County sheriff nor the prosecutor requested it, Troop F Criminal Unit Capt. Ron Replogle wrote in a Feb. 4 letter to Miller.

When asked why the officers did not just write Miller a ticket and slip it through her window, he referred to her belligerence.

"A person must obey the officer as per state law," Page said. "I don't believe that that's an area we were willing to compromise on."

He added deputies also had to make her get out of the truck so they could tell whether she was intoxicated or drugged. He said they could not smell alcohol on her breath. She told them she had not been drinking but would not take a Breathalyzer test.

He could not address Miller's reports of injuries.

"She claims she has scrapes and bruises. They were not evident in our facility nor did she express any injuries to anyone to my knowledge."

Miller disagrees, saying she asked for and was refused medical attention in the jail cell.

Page also discounted Miller's allegations she was being harassed. In a busy tourist season around the lakes, Page said, "my guys have more than enough things going on that they do not need to be looking for someone to harass."

Camden County assistant prosecutor Brian Keedy said he would not comment on the case "other than the police used force. Whether it was excessive or not, that's probably for civil jury to decide down the road," he said.

Camden County Presiding Commissioner Carolyn Loraine said she didn't know about the case, adding, "I would certainly hope there would not be brutality or coercion or anything like that from his department."

cordex
March 10, 2004, 12:59 PM
From the same article:
Camden County Deputy Chris Moehle gives a different account in a court affidavit.

Moehle said he was traveling north on Missouri 5 when he saw a vehicle traveling 70 mph in a 50 mph zone. He followed the vehicle, noticing the driver would slow down to 25 mph in a 55 mph zone and then exceed the speed limit. The vehicle continued erratically, swerving out of its lane and then drastically dropping below the speed limit.

Near Lake Road 5-36, he activated his emergency equipment to stop the vehicle for erratic driving, according to his affidavit. He said the driver began to stop, then returned to the highway and traveled north for about one-half mile until it stopped north of Lake Road 5-35.

When she pulled over, Miller called a friend on her cell phone and asked her to call 911 and Morgan County officials. She also asked her friend to activate a telephone tape recorder she maintains for patient calls at home.

Most of the incident was captured on tape, Miller said.

Women are encouraged to take precautions on traffic stops, said Reid, with the Missouri Police Chiefs Association. It is permissible to continue driving at a moderate speed for a short, reasonable distance to a lighted area or one with people. It is also acceptable to make a 911 cell phone call to verify the traffic stop, but advisable to roll down the window a bit and alert the officer, Reid said.

Page said his officers typically run the plates of a vehicle, then activate the lights and sirens in an area conducive or safe for a stop.

He said since that stretch of Missouri 5 has no shoulders, the officer waited to activate his lights until he got to a safer stretch, which happened to be inside the Sunrise Beach city limits.

Miller said in her motion she became more fearful on the dark stretch of road when a man approached her vehicle, shined a light in her face and addressed her by name, according to her motion. He asked her to roll down her window and turn off her cell phone.

Miller said she had the window one-third down, kept the cell phone on and asked why the man stopped her. The man, who later identified himself as Deputy Moehle, didn't answer her, she said in the motion.

Moehle's affidavit contradicts that, saying he gave his name and asked her to present her driver's license. She said through the window she couldn't be sure he was a deputy, so he provided his serial number, sheriff's commission, and finally called for a supervisor to come and vouch for him, the court document says.

When Cpl. K. Bart Sims arrived and Miller eventually lowered the window, she stuck out her license but jerked it back, according to Moehle's affidavit.

Miller denies that, saying she jerked her hand back because Sims grabbed it.

When Miller refused Sims' order to leave the truck, he told her she was under arrest, that she was resisting arrest and told Moehle to open the passenger door with an unlocking device, Moehle's affidavit says. It further says she grabbed the device, so Sims broke the driver's side window with a flashlight.

Miller's motion says glass shattered over her, the driver's side door was ripped open, and Sims grabbed and jerked her left arm.

Moehle's affidavit continues, "We then physically attempted to get her out of the vehicle, and she resisted by gripping the steering wheel. We finally managed to get her out of the vehicle and she became combative so we placed her on the ground.

"Upon handcuffing Miller we helped her back up and she became combative again. She was trying to throw us off balance with her body weight. We once again placed her on the ground. After the second struggle I escorted her to my patrol car and placed her in the back seat."

Sims' affidavit doesn't mention that Miller — 5 feet, 8 inches tall and 110 pounds — tried to throw them off-balance. His statement says that once Miller was upright again, Moehle noticed something in her hands and asked her what it was. She pulled away from him, so they placed her back on the ground until they determined it was a wallet.

Moehle's own account doesn't include the wallet detail.

12-34hom
March 10, 2004, 01:08 PM
If some powermonger cop decides to make me a victim - i'll have no problem unloading my five seven on him.

Now there's a bright statement, avocating the murder of a peace officer.

These types of threads ALWAYS go straight downhill.

Lock it down.

12-34hom.

boofus
March 10, 2004, 01:44 PM
I'm sure the SS would agree. No 'peace officer' should ever be resisted.

What about that case over on the west coast where a state trooper pulled some woman over. Raped her, murdered her and then buried her body in the desert?

Or Klan sanctioned police raids on black communities back in the Jim Crow days?

A criminal in a blue uniform with a badge and gun is still that... a criminal. If he is UNLAWFULLY assaulting you I don't see any difference between him and the run of the mill rapist. Except the rapist can speak with more honesty about his chosen profession.

If you resort to deadly force you'll still face a trial and maybe due process as the media portrays you as some psycho copkiller. But if the only other alternative was torture and death at the hands of a 'cop' it isn't much of a choice is it?

fjolnirsson
March 10, 2004, 02:30 PM
Oldfart,

I hope that doesn't happen. I'm afraid you may be a prophet, sir.
We are currently on a very slippery slope. It's just so easy to continue as we have.

TallPine
March 10, 2004, 02:59 PM
First she may not be a "real" doctor ie- M.D., which still doesn't give the right to resist. She sounds more like an O.D. that would have perscribed aroma therapy, massages and such for the prisoner.
Oh yeah, that's a real nice attitude ....:rolleyes:

I think the correct term is D.O. ("Doctor of Osteopathy").

For your information, a DO delivered all three of our children, was a staff doctor at the local hospital (chief of staff at one time, IIRC), and had a joint practice with other MDs over the years. He also did musculo-skeletal manipulations much like a chiropractor would, in addition to General Practice.

In other words, by your definitions he was a "quack" because he wasn't an M.D.

mondocomputerman
March 10, 2004, 03:42 PM
That's crazy! I grew up in Camden county, where that happened. I never considered the police there to be bad. Always good encounters when I got stopped.

Mama06
March 10, 2004, 04:41 PM
I honestly did not intend for this thread to become a LEO bashing thread...and I really don't think it has. But if it offends, I think I can delete it myself by editing the first post if everyone thinks that I should.

I'll check back later and if it is agreed that it needs to go...I'll attempt to delete it myself.

Werewolf
March 10, 2004, 04:46 PM
FWIW I vote no! Don't delete it.

I also don't understand the taboo against cop bashing. Why are they a protected group? We have no problems bashing the leadership of this country, either political party or whomever else we think deserves it. What makes cops so special that we can't bash them - especially if they deserve it?

Wildalaska
March 10, 2004, 04:47 PM
Now there's a bright statement, avocating the murder of a peace officer.

When I see stuff like that, I wonder what makes people tick.....


WildjustanothercopbashingthreadAlaska

12-34hom
March 10, 2004, 04:53 PM
Boofus, you've been watching way to many re-runs of "The Shield".

Grow up.

12-34hom.

cordex
March 10, 2004, 05:09 PM
If the charges are true, the officers involved are fully deserving of administrative disciplinary action and criminal prosecution.
If the charges are entirely false, the woman deserves to spend more than a little time in jail for perjury.

I suppose we'll always have a few who immediately grab at every opportunity to insult and unjustly accuse police, and a few who immediately whine about "cop bashing" whenever any police officer is criticized for any reason.

Too little info, too few facts. Could be good cops painted in a bad light by a bad woman. Could be a good woman abused by bad cops. Could be what we have here is a failure to communicate and a little bad all around.

Oh, and Mama, I'm pretty sure you can't delete the thread anyway. That is reserved for moderators.

Jeff White
March 10, 2004, 05:23 PM
Why is it that we're ready to jump in and judge the police before we know the facts? Lets look at some possible inconsistancies here:

From Dr. Miller's court filing, posted here:
http://www.assaultweb.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=42;t=015715;p=0
FACTS IN SUPPORT OF THIS MOTION
In May 2001, Dr. Ramona Miller was summoned to the Camden County Correctional Center (hereinafter "CCCC") by a prisoner who was having health problems. As a part of Dr. Miller's Osteopathic oath (similar to the Hypocratic oath), she responded to this cry for medical attention, even though she had never ventured into a prison before.
Upon examining the patient, William Mason (Case Numbers: CR2011029FX, 01-0497-CV-W-6-P, 01-0497-CV-W-6-P, and others), at CCCC, Dr. Miller discovered that the patient had serious health issues, and needed immediate hospitalization.

Can anyone name a correctional facility that allows a prisoner to call his/her own Dr? Most jails contract with a medical facility for that kind of support. It's not unusual for a prisoner to fake an illness to get transferred to the local hospital where living conditions are much better. Yet the motion clearly states that the prisoner called her.

After being stabilized, the patient was transported by ambulance and hospitalized at St. John's Regional Health Center. The patient was admitted to Cardiology and required further treatment due to what appeared to be the extreme malfeasance and negligence by his jailers in ignoring the ordinary standard of care.

Where is the evidence of this claim? I don't see Mason's medical record anywhere. And more importantly how is this relevant to the traffic stop?

Dr. Miller also discovered that the reason Mr. Mason summoned for her assistance was because Mr. Mason, a former bounty hunter with the County, claimed that Camden County was full of corrupt officials, and had specific proof thereof. While awaiting transfer to the hospital, Dr. Miller was told that Sheriff Page was not going to be happy with Dr. Miller and her medical decision to transfer the patient to the hospital.

Mr. Mason a former bounty hunter for the county?? I don't understand what she means by that and how it's relevant. I suppose it to give the impression that they just intended to let Mason suffer and die whil in custody. More likely Sheriff Page would not be happy because the county would most likely end up picking up the tab for Mason's care and established procedures weren't used to get Mason the care.

After the patient had been released back into CCCC custody, Dr. Miller was refused a follow-up visit with her patient because of an alleged change in policy requiring new physician photo identification, which was not standard issue of physicians at St. John's Physicians & Clinics.

Does anyone think that this alleged new policy may have been implemented to protect the taxpayers of the county from inmates using their own Dr.'s to get a nice furlough from the jail to a hospital room with TV and pretty nurses at county expense?

Now on to the traffic stop Dr. Miller states:
Just shy of the Morgan County line, flashing lights came on and Dr. Miller immediately pulled over. Because of the earlier harassment, Dr. Miller turned on her cell telephone calling a friend for help. Dr. Miller told her friend to tape record what happened as there would be a record of any abuses she might further experience. Dr. Miller was also asking her friend to call police outside of Camden County, and to call 9-1-1 outside Camden County in order to receive assistance and protection from the Camden County Sheriff's Department's abuses.

Where is the tape recording of the call? I've seen it referenced a number of times yet I haven't seen a transcipt. Deputy Chris Moehle gave this version;

Moehle said he was traveling north on Missouri 5 when he saw a vehicle traveling 70 mph in a 50 mph zone. He followed the vehicle, noticing the driver would slow down to 25 mph in a 55 mph zone and then exceed the speed limit. The vehicle continued erratically, swerving out of its lane and then drastically dropping below the speed limit.

Near Lake Road 5-36, he activated his emergency equipment to stop the vehicle for erratic driving, according to his affidavit. He said the driver began to stop, then returned to the highway and traveled north for about one-half mile until it stopped north of Lake Road 5-35.

Erratic driving like this could indicate an impaired driver. I don't see anything wrong with the probable cause for the stop. Miller said she immediately pulled over, yet Moehle said she pulled back onto the road and continued for another half mile. What do the radio tapes say? If Moehle was following what is normal procedure just about everywhere, he called in a description of the vehicle and it's location when he initiated the stop. If he was being safe, he most likely called in that she was not stopping at the original location and the stop was actually North of Lake Road 5-35. Is it possible that the jury heard this evidence and we're not being told in this story?
:uhoh:

Dr. Miller continues in her pleading;

Dr. Miller was in fear for her safety knowing that she had done nothing to warrant a traffic stop. Her concerns were immediately validated when the unidentified man standing by her car in pitch black darkness already knew her name and identified her as a doctor, even though he had not asked for her identification.

Now why wouldn't she expect the deputy to know who she was? She says this on her website:
http://www.drmillertruth.org/Details.htm
# An enlarged picture of Dr. Miller's drivers license photo and a description of her vehicle were posted at the Camden County Sheriff's Department and at the jail on the same day she was not allowed to visit her patient for follow up care at the Correctional Facility.

So she complains that they posted her picture and a description of her vehicle on the bulletin board and yet she refuses to cooperate with the depupty because she's frightened because he knows who she is without seeing her ID? Of course it's also possible that he already had a response from calling in her plates before he approached the vehicle. I don't see how she can claim that they have targeted her for having dirt on the county government and then claim she was too frighted to cooperate because the deputy knew who she was. And does anyone else think it's possible that her photo was posted so the employees at the jail knew who she was and that they should contact a supervisor before allowing her to see an inmate? Wouldn't that be reasonable?

Dr. Miller continues in her statement;

The unidentified person asked her to roll her window all the way down and to turn off her cell telephone. Dr. Miller stated her concern regarding rolling her window all the way down in an area known as Sunrise Beach, which was very dark and secluded without street lights and with the unidentified man shining a bright light in her eyes. Dr. Miller kept her window down approximately 1/3 of the way, kept her cell telephone on which was her only link to safety, while repeatedly asking the man what was the probable cause for him to have stopped her.

The unidentified man (later claiming to be Deputy Moehle) refused to answer Dr. Miller even after she asked him and got him to focus on the question, what is the probable cause for the stop. At this point the man stood there, dumbfounded and silent for at least 15 seconds without an answer. Without answering Dr. Miller's question, Moehle went and called a K-9 deputy later identified as Deputy Bart Sims. Just shortly thereafter, an unidentified Laurie police car went by, however, because Laurie Police had no jurisdiction in Camden County, and because Dr. Miller could not see if this car stopped or continued on into its area of jurisdiction, Dr. Miller still could not tell if any "neutral" police were on the scene who could help her. Meanwhile, Dr. Miller continued to ask her friend to call for help from authorities outside of Camden County. In quick sequence, Sims asked for Dr. Miller's identification, but because Dr. Miller was concerned for her safety, she displayed her driver's license through the window. When the officer stated he wanted Dr. Miller to hand him her license Dr. Miller complied. Instead of taking the license, however, the officer grabbed Dr. Miller by the left hand.

However Moehle gives this version;
Moehle's affidavit contradicts that, saying he gave his name and asked her to present her driver's license. She said through the window she couldn't be sure he was a deputy, so he provided his serial number, sheriff's commission, and finally called for a supervisor to come and vouch for him, the court document says.

When Cpl. K. Bart Sims arrived and Miller eventually lowered the window, she stuck out her license but jerked it back, according to Moehle's affidavit.

Miller denies that, saying she jerked her hand back because Sims grabbed it.

Miller continues;
Dr. Miller pulled her hand back into the car further putting her in fear of her safety. Dr. Miller then rolled the windows up in fear of these 2 men in this dark, secluded area, while she and her friend were trying to call for help from someone outside Camden County. Again, in extremely quick sequence, Dr. Miller, was told she was under arrest and then within seconds he stated that she was resisting arrest. Dr. Miller again asked for probable cause as to why she was stopped, knowing she had done nothing wrong and that Moehle had performed the zooming in/backing off harassment that she had experienced in previous abuses by Camden County. Sims told her she would find out what the probable cause is in jail.

Ok earlier in her story, she's resisting because she didn't know who Moehle was, now she says she knows they are Camden County deputies and she's resisting because they are from Camden County. She can't have it both ways. I wonder if she would have cooperated with any officer from any agency that night?

Dr. Miller's story continues;
At this point, Sims told the Moehle to open the passenger door with a Slim Jim and told the Laurie Police officer who must have been parked somewhere behind Dr. Miller to pull up in front of her vehicle. As this was quickly occurring, and as Dr. Miller was looking at Moehle breaking into her passenger side window, she heard and felt the impact of glass shattering on the driver's side. As the glass poured over Dr. Miller's head and face, the driver's side door was ripped open, and her left arm was grabbed and jerked by Sims. As she tried to get her seatbelt off, Sims kicked her left leg so severely, that even though she had not been released from her seatbelt, her body was jerked into a head first position as she was yanked and dragged from the car.

Hmmm the Laurie police officer was there. Yet earlier she said she didn't initially cooperate because;

Just shortly thereafter, an unidentified Laurie police car went by, however, because Laurie Police had no jurisdiction in Camden County, and because Dr. Miller could not see if this car stopped or continued on into its area of jurisdiction, Dr. Miller still could not tell if any "neutral" police were on the scene who could help her.

So I have to ask, if she now knew she had an officer from a neutral agency there to protect her, why didn't she cooperate at this point?

The deputies say;
When Miller refused Sims' order to leave the truck, he told her she was under arrest, that she was resisting arrest and told Moehle to open the passenger door with an unlocking device, Moehle's affidavit says. It further says she grabbed the device, so Sims broke the driver's side window with a flashlight. "We then physically attempted to get her out of the vehicle, and she resisted by gripping the steering wheel. We finally managed to get her out of the vehicle and she became combative so we placed her on the ground.

"Upon handcuffing Miller we helped her back up and she became combative again. She was trying to throw us off balance with her body weight. We once again placed her on the ground. After the second struggle I escorted her to my patrol car and placed her in the back seat."

Sims' affidavit doesn't mention that Miller — 5 feet, 8 inches tall and 110 pounds — tried to throw them off-balance. His statement says that once Miller was upright again, Moehle noticed something in her hands and asked her what it was. She pulled away from him, so they placed her back on the ground until they determined it was a wallet.

What happened? Who knows, but you have to admit there are plenty of inconsistancies in Miller's own statement. Almost like she's trying to justify her actions after the fact.

Miller continues with;

The 110 pound Dr. Miller was then thrown against her vehicle hard enough to dent it as all three officers pressed against her body and face. She was stunned and in shock. Then Sims turned Dr. Miller and rode her about eight-ten feet, drilling her into the gravel, face first, with his full body weight landing on top of her. Dr. Miller screamed in pain as her rib was broken under the force of Sim's body weight and her right arm was struck with severe force. While being beaten, Dr. Miller was handcuffed from behind, face down on the gravel, and was helpless. Dr. Miller not only had a broken rib, but she had a twisted left wrist due to Sim's grabbing and twisting her hand and then when she landed on it with Sims on top of her. Dr. Miller suffered multiple injuries. While Dr. Miller was facedown helpless and handcuffed, Sim's then began searching Dr. Miller's pockets, but only searched into one pocket and then rubbed her between her legs well beyond what it would take to search for objects. At this point, Sims started hovering over Dr. Miller, pointing down at her and yelling that "we'll get your ass" and other such degrading and humiliating statements.

I'm sure that there are others here who will attest to the difficulty of subduing a 5'8", 110 pound woman who is fighting like a banshee without severly injuring her. My gut feeling is that she was fighting with everything she had when they pulled her from the vehicle.

Miller then states;
Dr. Miller was taken to the Camden County Correctional Center, where she was placed into an isolated cell, and where the officers were ordered to leave her handcuffs on her even though she was incarcerated, making sure the cuffs were cutting into her circulation in her hands an additional 5-6 hours.

Could it be that she was left cuffed for her own safety because she was still so agitated and combative? We don't know if the cuffs were double locked, but if they weren't it would be very easy for her to tighten them herslf while struggling. Could it also be it took so long because she refused to submit to the booking process? I suppose they just should have let her go?

Dr. Miller remained in an isolated cell for hours. Not until close to 16 hours later, was Dr. Miller told what the charges were, after the Camden County Sheriff's Department got their story straight. Meanwhile, Dr. Miller's request to see a judge was also ignored.

Could it be that she remained in an isolated cell until she agreed to cooperate with being booked. I've seen it plenty of times where combative subjects who could post a simple bond and be on their way sit in jail for hours until they cool down enough to allow themselves to be fingerprinted and photographed.

Her story continues;
Dr. Miller was placed on medical leave because of the severity of her injuries, particularly those to her hands and wrists caused by the grabbing, twisting, force of landing, and prolonged use of extra tight handcuffs for 5-6 hours, all causing damage to her tendons, bones, nerves, and muscles in her hands.

None of which would have happened had she cooperated with the officers. I wasn't there, I don't know what happened, but there are enough inconsistencies in her story to make me doubt it.

Jeff

J Jones
March 10, 2004, 05:24 PM
Boofus, you've been watching way to many re-runs of "The Shield".

"The Shield" is based on the actions of LAPD's Rampart Division. Art imitates life.

WonderNine
March 10, 2004, 05:44 PM
No, a gun would not have helped in that situation...You cannot shoot police (even JBTs), even if they are acting unConstitutionally. No one said a gun is a universal ticket to safety.

These cops should have ran into those two nutballs from that "44 Minutes" movie.

Cosmoline
March 10, 2004, 06:37 PM
Folks, if an LEO is attempting to make a genuinely unlawful arrest, you CAN RESIST to the same extent you could with anyone else trying to unlawfully detain you. There is a great deal of case law to support this.

BUT, and I mean BUT(!!) you had BETTER BE RIGHT! Otherwise there will be hell to pay. In this situation lethal force would have been justified, assuming of course we're not being lied to (there's no verification at all in the report and it sets all my BS alarms off). But that's a pretty extreme situation. In virtually every other situation where you THINK the arrest is unlawful, the better step is to let it happen then challenge it in court. Remeber just because you THINK it's unlawful doesn't mean it is. The parameters for a genuinely unlawful arrest by an LEO are real, real slim. They can be completely wrong about your guilt, for example, yet still be making a perfectly legal arrest based on reasonable suspicion.

Baba Louie
March 10, 2004, 08:22 PM
This from a friend of mine who practices law down thataway... (I asked him about this, this AM)

"Hey, Baba, it's me.

I don't doubt for a moment (a) Miller "copped an attitude" with the Good Ol' Boys in Camden County; and (b) The Good Ol' Boys beat her up, ("Don't F*** With The Eagles Unless You Know How To Fly,") and (c) The Good Ol' Boys all coordinated their stories afterwards. Camden County is NOT a county you want to be an "ousider" in. Macks Creek, a little postage stamp town in the southern portion of the county, for years had been notorious as being The Worst Speed Trap in the Nation -- busting "outsiders" who failed to immediately slow from the 55 mph limit to 15 mph next to the one sign warning, thus paying for ALL municipal services through draconian fines and court costs -- until even the Missouri legislature had to put a stop to it. The tragedy of Miller's case is that the jury -- NOT from Camden County -- naively didn't think the cops would lie about something like this.

Miller, in her capacity as doctor, had earlier rather rudely critiqued the quality of care in the Camden County Jail, and that didn't sit well with the Powers That Be. (I know the Camden County Prosecutor -- Jim Icenogle -- I went to law school with him. . . He filed the charges, presumably to appease the local powers, then promptly dumped the case on the Attorney General's office. He said it was to "avoid the appearance of impropriety." Bull****. He did it because the version the deputies initially told him didn't wash, and he wanted to insulate himself from the perjury) They were out to get her. Although she was convicted of resisting arrest, she was acquitted on the charge that supposedly prompted her arrest -- a minor traffic infraction.

I think you still have the Springfield News-Leader website. Check and see if you can still get archive access to Sarah Overstreet's columns. She carried a few columns on the incident. You may also still find some stories in the News-Leader archives, which tended not to tout the Official Camden County line.

At last check, Miller had appealed her conviction to the Mo. Court of Appeals, but it will be a year or so before a decision is made. In the meantime, she had been looking for an attorney to file a 1984 Civil Rights suit against Deputy Dawg and the Good Ol' Boys, but couldn't find one locally. I lost track of it after that."

And so it goes... Not a flame on anyone or LE in general, but my friend has practiced law down there for about 22 years (think large SW MO city) and knows most of the LE, PD and PA since he deals with them daily.

Ryder
March 10, 2004, 09:04 PM
Jack Booted Thugs Who Brutalized The 110 Pound Lady Doctor Whom They Feared May Have Learned "Too Much." While Treating Another Of Their Victims.

I saw that coming. Wonder what Mr. William Mason knows, or knew? Could be written on his tombstone by now.

J Jones
March 10, 2004, 09:05 PM
(b) The Good Ol' Boys beat her up, ("Don't F*** With The Eagles Unless You Know How To Fly,")

Always can tell the class acts who need to beat up on women. If they couldn't arrest her for assaulting an officer, then I fail to see why pepper spray wasn't used to subdue the victim here.

12-34hom
March 10, 2004, 09:22 PM
Baba Louie & Jeff White, Thanks for your posts.

12-34hom.

Matt G
March 11, 2004, 02:59 AM
" As Much As I Believe In The RKBA, I Don't Think A Firearm Would Have Helped This Time "

OT.

Closed.

tcsd1236
March 11, 2004, 08:07 AM
I don't know any Sheriff's Office that would NOT send an inmate who needed medical treatment to the hospital. However, there is usually a procedure in place to do that: the jail has its own medical staff who examine inmates and make the decision, unless its an imminent crisis, in which case an ambulance is called, the inmate goes to the ER and is checked out. This woman being "summoned" to the facility and telling the staff that the inmate needed to go to the hospital would carry ZERO weight in my county jail and her report would be forwarded to the jail doc for review an a decision on courses of action.

Someone made the comment that a 110 lb woman is a tiny person. I don't know how big the women are where you hang out at, but 110 here is about average. Oh, you get all types of women, from 90 lbs to 300 lbs, but I wouldn't say that 110 is that far off of average.

Anyone here ever had to haul a woman out of a car that you have stopped? There aren't many pretty ways of accomplishing that.

Bottom line is that we are getting her side of things, for the most part.Shes convinced the two incidents are related, but its a stretch for me to see that. Maybe she would have been happier to be OC'd in her car?

tcsd1236
March 11, 2004, 08:13 AM
"Folks, if an LEO is attempting to make a genuinely unlawful arrest, you CAN RESIST to the same extent you could with anyone else trying to unlawfully detain you. There is a great deal of case law to support this."

Not in NYS. Make sure that you clarify that you are only speaking for your state.

Matt G
March 11, 2004, 12:10 PM
Meant to close it when I posted last night!

Oops.


Thread closed.

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