When did our standard mags become "high cap".?


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Droid noob
February 10, 2013, 11:43 PM
I'm so tired of seeing our own people referring to the standard mags, that ship with guns, high capacity.

Everywhere there being sold, I keep hearing "high cap mags". We are adopting the lefts own language here.

These are standard mags people. NY and California have low capacity mags.

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12131
February 10, 2013, 11:48 PM
Say what you will. It doesn't change a thing.

chris in va
February 10, 2013, 11:58 PM
Yeah, preaching to the choir.

Personally I wouldn't shed a tear if the 'beta' mags and 33rd Glock mags went away. They weren't designed to be used in semiauto's anyway. But when they want to cut down the designed capacity of say, my CZ P01 with 14rd mag, I get upset.

Hey, let's drop their beloved Prius engine down to 50hp, see how they like that.

justice06rr
February 11, 2013, 12:15 AM
When standard rifles became "high-powered rifles", and mags are "clips", and when every semi-auto AR/AK are called "assault rifles"...

USAF_Vet
February 11, 2013, 12:20 AM
Personally I wouldn't shed a tear if the 'beta' mags and 33rd Glock mags went away. They weren't designed to be used in semiauto's anyway.

Really? I can see an argument for the 33 Glock mag being designed for the Glock 18, but the Beta mag has no such supporting argument.
33 round Glock mags were designed to function in semi autos, so even the G18 argument falls short.

JayBird
February 11, 2013, 12:21 AM
I'm so tired of seeing our own people referring to the standard mags, that ship with guns, high capacity.

Everywhere there being sold, I keep hearing "high cap mags". We are adopting the lefts own language here.

These are standard mags people. NY and California have low capacity mags.
it is not just 'high capacity magazines' where the anti's language is being used more. It is on many things involving gun rights and gun control.

We need to make a collective effort to not make their words...THE words...that get used to classify anything to do with the gun rights issue.

It is very important in a PR strategy. Which is what shifts the middle...which we need.

The whole shift of 'the gun show loophole' to 'Universal Background checks' is one example.

They are trying to even shift the words 'gun control' to 'gun safety'. We just can not let that happen and hope to stay ahead in the war of words.

Heck, Brady even officially shifted its name from 'Handgun Control Inc' to "The Brady Campaign to Prevent gun violence' is another example of the war of words. It is why Bloomies organization is called "Mayors against illegal guns' and this whole new emerging "Demand a Plan" crap.

We are letting them win the war on the PR front, which will cost us in the end.

It is why whenever I now speak to an anti, I remind them that "Gun Rights equals Civil Rights".

JayBird
February 11, 2013, 12:22 AM
Oh. And dont forget the new...Assault bullets. :cuss:

Balrog
February 11, 2013, 12:25 AM
In the 1980's when the wonder-nines became popular, gun writers described the magazines as high capacity, in comparison to the low capacity of 6 round revolvers that were popular with police and civilians at the time. I know someone is going to ask for references. I don't have any other than I lived through that time and remember it. Next time you are at a big gun show, see if you can find old issues of Guns & Ammo from the 80's, read reviews for Beretta, Sig, and Glock, and you will see what I am talking about is true.

mgmorden
February 11, 2013, 01:57 AM
They were hi-caps before they were standard. The Browning Hi-Power is mostly what introduced double-stack pistol mags and a capacity higher than 8-rounds or so. Moving further along until double-stacks became ubiquitous, compared to the 1911 they WERE hi-capacity magazines and that was a selling point.

Nowadays since double-stack guns have been the defacto standard for 20+ years we can get away with terming them standard capacity mags, but from a historical standpoint calling them hi-capacity magazines isn't inaccurate.

Not that I'm arguing your point that we should call them standard capacity, just that you seem to indicate that the anti's invented the term "hi-cap", when in reality its the other way around. That's always been around and we're stuck trying to refine the term to standard capacity.

OcelotZ3
February 11, 2013, 02:11 AM
Oh. And dont forget the new...Assault bullets.

And I've also seen "assault clip" when referring to a "high-cap magazine"... Gag.

JohnBiltz
February 11, 2013, 04:33 AM
Sorry, you have to blame this one on gun writers in the 80s.

chris in va
February 11, 2013, 04:47 AM
33 round Glock mags were designed to function in semi autos, so even the G18 argument falls short.

The 33rd was designed for the G18 which is select fire. It can certainly be used in other models but not originally intended for them.

Blackstone
February 11, 2013, 05:10 AM
When they became high powered magazines as well

BigBore44
February 11, 2013, 05:16 AM
Hey all,
I'm new to the forum but not new to firearms. The problem that we are facing is the war on words, and we are losing. What was once a selling point has now been demonized by the left. High caps are now assult clips (they don't even know the difference between clips and mags). Accuracy defined as MOA or sub MOA is now being shown how someone can kill at extreme ranges by "Snipers". And the majority of our fence riding citizens ARE affected by this. Why? Because they are bombarded by it everyday. All they see on the news now is killing after killing. You don't think the liberal news media plan that? It's easy to find shootings across the country and choose one that involved one of the "Devils Tools", make it a national story, and play it for a few days furthering the leftist cause. Our problem is we are constantly on the defensive. Which by definition means we are in trouble. You cannot gain ground by defending. You have to attack to gain ground. Oh no. I said the "A" word. Our biggest ally in the news media used to be Fox. But even now some of them are jumping on the uninformed bandwagon. We shooters know the truth. What will strengthen our cause the most is bringing new people into the shooting sports. We defeat the left with education. We educate the new people to what it really means to be a gun owner. And by doing so take one more person off the peverbial fence. When we sit on a message board and gripe about what's going on to people who already agree with us, what are we really accomplishing? Just my 2 cents. I'd offer more but Uncle Sam is getting most of it to wage his war on us.

BigN
February 11, 2013, 05:42 AM
When the gubment said they were...

Plan2Live
February 11, 2013, 07:10 AM
We have no one to blame but ourselves. I don't have the time to go back and search thread by thread and copy and paste to prove my point but it hasn't been that long since many here touted the high capacity of their chosen handgun, usually the Austrian offerings, as a "mine is bigger than yours therefore it must be better" argument. How many threads have you read discussing caliber vs capacity or other such discussion? And yes, those 33 rounds mags that hang way down past the grip are pretty ridiculous, not to mention the "snail mags". I think the term is "mall ninja". So yeah, we did this to ourselves.

As for the "war of words", we have lost that battle. Tomorrow Obama makes a three state anti-gun tour and will get more media coverage than Kim Kardashian at a singles bar. Meanwhile we stage these little protest rallies here and there with no consitent message, pitifull turnout and almost no advertising or media coverage.

Yeah, we're losing.

19-3Ben
February 11, 2013, 07:37 AM
Hey, let's drop their beloved Prius engine down to 50hp, see how they like that.

This is the kind of thinking we can't afford. Don't just assume that everyone follows a general trend or stereotype. My father, who is a staunch 2A supporter drives a Prius because he puts about 45,000 miles per year on his car so getting 60mpg adds up and it means he can save more money to spend on ammo.

Let's be careful with our words so as to not alienate our brethren. It goes along with not making this a political party line argument even though, generally a Republican is more likely to support 2A than a Democrat. We need to be inclusive here.

radiotom
February 11, 2013, 07:45 AM
They aren't even "high capacity" anymore. Now they are "assault magazines" :banghead:

BigBore44
February 11, 2013, 08:30 AM
Funny thing is when Obama goes on that three state rally, he will be protected by men with real sniper rifles, real assult weapons, and high capacity mags. When he and Feinstein decide to give up that protection I'll.....still keep mine. :)

Lex Luthier
February 11, 2013, 08:32 AM
They became "high-capacity" when the left's language required an amplified connotation to bolster their argument. One usually speaks in logical, rational denotation, but this technique is used by anyone on any side of an argument during a frothy emotional appeal.

Normal logical and linear arguments using simple concrete terms are less colorful and have generally less impact on the hyper-emotional, technically ignorant.

It is immensely important how we make our points and the image we put across. We have all experienced poorly constructed arguments based on emotion, and we have all experienced serious well-put arguments based on facts. Take your pick and be the best example of our side of the argument you can be.

PRM
February 11, 2013, 08:46 AM
Here is some new verbiage from the left "assault bullets"

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/02/foghorn/list-of-proposed-california-gun-control-measures-500-round-max-no-grandfathering-no-detachable-mags-mandatory-license/

radiotom
February 11, 2013, 08:49 AM
Here is some new verbiage from the left "assault bullets"

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/02/foghorn/list-of-proposed-california-gun-control-measures-500-round-max-no-grandfathering-no-detachable-mags-mandatory-license/
Isn't that the best? They call assault weapons and assault magazines those names because the military uses them. Well the military uses FMJ's, not hollow points. But hollow points are the "assault bullets." They broke their own asinine logic.

beatledog7
February 11, 2013, 09:12 AM
I've stopped falling into that hi-cap trap. I now use the term "design capacity" when I mean the number of rounds a pistol or rifle was originally spec'd to carry. For those that have two design capacities, one being a round or to more than the other, it's still just design capacity, for me.

Let the antis call things what they will, just answer with a correct term. That disarms them and shifts control of the debate.

Droid noob
February 11, 2013, 10:36 AM
They were hi-caps before they were standard. The Browning Hi-Power is mostly what introduced double-stack pistol mags and a capacity higher than 8-rounds or so. Moving further along until double-stacks became ubiquitous, compared to the 1911 they WERE hi-capacity magazines and that was a selling point.

Nowadays since double-stack guns have been the defacto standard for 20+ years we can get away with terming them standard capacity mags, but from a historical standpoint calling them hi-capacity magazines isn't inaccurate.

Not that I'm arguing your point that we should call them standard capacity, just that you seem to indicate that the anti's invented the term "hi-cap", when in reality its the other way around. That's always been around and we're stuck trying to refine the term to standard capacity.

I've only gotten into firearms in the last 3 years. I was under the impression they started the high capacity term. I can see your point about them historically being considered high capacity.

Like you mentioned though. Today's standard semi auto gun comes with standard double stack mags. If you look on arms list and the for sale section here, you'll see them being marketed as "pre ban high cap mags". I just think we're doing a disservice to ourselves by referring to them as such.

BigG
February 11, 2013, 12:04 PM
It's advertising. Everything has to be the bestest!

ATLDave
February 11, 2013, 12:08 PM
In 1994, when it was made the law of the land.

Same way that "pistol" came to exclude revolvers (though that happened earlier).

Laws frequently include definitions for various terms. When discussing the law, the definitions that the law creates/adopts tend to get used.

benEzra
February 11, 2013, 01:05 PM
They were hi-caps before they were standard. The Browning Hi-Power is mostly what introduced double-stack pistol mags and a capacity higher than 8-rounds or so. Moving further along until double-stacks became ubiquitous, compared to the 1911 they WERE hi-capacity magazines and that was a selling point.
That's true of pistol magazines, but do keep in mind that over-10-round rifle magazines have been pretty mainstream since the 1860's. The 16-round Henry rifle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_rifle)(ancestor of the 15-round Winchester rifle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_rifle)of 1866) was patented in 1860 and IIRC hit the market in 1861.

Here is Mary Fields (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Fields)holding her Winchester Model 1876, capacity 15 rounds, that she purchased and kept for self-defense:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/Mary_Fields.jpg

FWIW, you could buy a rifle with a 34-round magazine in 1873, the Evans rifle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evans_Repeating_Rifle), made from 1873 to 1879; capacity was 28 to 34 rounds, depending on model. The magazine was helical, like a modern Calico. Caliber was .44 Evans, similar to .44-40. "Buffalo Bill" Cody owned one.

Vector
February 11, 2013, 01:11 PM
it is not just 'high capacity magazines' where the anti's language is being used more. It is on many things involving gun rights and gun control.

We need to make a collective effort to not make their words...THE words...that get used to classify anything to do with the gun rights issue.

It is very important in a PR strategy. Which is what shifts the middle...which we need.

The whole shift of 'the gun show loophole' to 'Universal Background checks' is one example.

They are trying to even shift the words 'gun control' to 'gun safety'. We just can not let that happen and hope to stay ahead in the war of words.

Heck, Brady even officially shifted its name from 'Handgun Control Inc' to "The Brady Campaign to Prevent gun violence' is another example of the war of words. It is why Bloomies organization is called "Mayors against illegal guns' and this whole new emerging "Demand a Plan" crap.

We are letting them win the war on the PR front, which will cost us in the end.

It is why whenever I now speak to an anti, I remind them that "Gun Rights equals Civil Rights".

Good points.

fastbolt
February 11, 2013, 01:53 PM
I'm so tired of seeing our own people referring to the standard mags, that ship with guns, high capacity.

Everywhere there being sold, I keep hearing "high cap mags". We are adopting the lefts own language here.

These are standard mags people. NY and California have low capacity mags.
Yep, say what you want, but they've been called "hi-cap mags" since before legislation existed which used that description.

I remember when the Browning HP's & S&W M59's were referred to as having "hi-cap mags" because they held more rounds than the mags used in Colt 1911's & S&W M39's. It was a comparison reference seemingly caused by the simple fact that the double column mags had a higher capacity than single stack mags. No political agendas. It was simply a design advantage used as a selling point.

I heard them called hi-caps when I was a young man in the 70's, and then when I was a young cop at the beginning of the 80's. We were told we were transitioning from revolvers to double stack "hi-cap" 9's at the end of the 80's, too.

Nowadays, of course, a lot of gun owners are somewhat sensitive to the use of the label "high capacity magazine", and double stack hi-cap mags have increasingly become the norm, or "standard", when it comes to service-type pistols. Some folks even like call single stack pistols, like 1911's, to be "low capacity" guns.

It does tend to create some semantics issues when you consider the previous federal legislation that formalized the use of terms like "high capacity magazines & feeding devices", and then the several states that have introduced their own legislation using legal descriptions of similar nature.

You can call them "standard capacity" if it makes you feel better. ;)

You know, though, the idea that 10-rd mags are "lo-capacity" is a bit different than how the early extended 10-rd 1911 mags were considered by many folks to be "hi-cap" mags. :neener:

USAF_Vet
February 11, 2013, 03:23 PM
The 33rd was designed for the G18 which is select fire. It can certainly be used in other models but not originally intended for them.
Select fire meaning it can be fired in semi-automatic.

The G18 was based on the G17, also.

I don't have a problem with 33 round pistol mags, or 100 round rifle mags. It did bother me that you have no issue with the grabbers going after those, but don't want to give up you 14 round mags.

If they go after one, they might as well go after them all. I don't have or want a Beta mag, but I'm not willing to ban them to save anything I own. I'm not throwing anyone under the bus to appease the government to, pretty please, let me keep my mags.

BigG
February 11, 2013, 03:38 PM
Ben Ezra - the double stack pistol goes back before JMB. The 1907 Savage 32 ACP had a double stack mag. Designer was Searl.

The Mauser Broomhandle pistols also were double stack even though most had fixed mags loaded with stripper clips.

orionengnr
February 11, 2013, 09:30 PM
Personally I wouldn't shed a tear if the 'beta' mags and 33rd Glock mags went away. They weren't designed to be used in semiauto's anyway. I hate to say it, but this type of logic is what lost a certain FUDD his job a couple years ago.
"It's okay if they take away all the XXX from those guys, because I don't use/own/need/want one."

c1ogden
February 12, 2013, 09:16 PM
We have to constantly remind others that just because a law defines something as a "high capacity" magazine doesn't mean that it is one. After all, the state could make a law that defines a Ford Mustang as a boat but that doesn't mean it's going to float when you drive it into the lake. Any time we discuss the issue, orally or in print, these items should be referred to as "so-called high capacity magazines".


I wrote a letter to Roy Huntington at American Handgunner Magazine last year about this. He printed it in his magazine and I reprint it here for you:


Hi Roy,
I just read your answer to "Assault Rifle Nonsense" in the March/April Speak Out column. I've long advocated using "real" terminology instead of legislated definitions that are designed to imply evil or induce fear in the unenlightened. This comes under that "winning the hearts and minds" part of the battle. I've posted in a number of forums and recommended that we stop using the term "High Capacity Magazines" unless it really is a high capacity magazine.

Different states have different legislated definitions for "high capacity" magazines. Here in NJ it is anything larger that 15 rounds. In CA and NY it is anything larger than 10 rounds and in MD it is anything larger than 20 rounds.

I use, and recommend, the terms -
"Standard Capacity Magazine" (whatever the gun was designed for),
"Restricted Capacity Magazine", (legislated capacity smaller than standard) and
"High Capacity Magazine" (greater capacity than standard).

Thus, a 15 round magazine for my Glock 19 is a "standard capacity magazine" since that is what the gun is designed around, while a 15 round magazine for my Browning Hi-Power is a "high capacity magazine" since that gun was designed for a 13 rounder.

A 10 round magazine is a "restricted capacity magazine" for either gun since, other than legislation, there is no valid reason for it to exist, and a 20 or 33 round magazine for either gun is a "high capacity magazine" since they are larger than either gun was designed for.

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