Gonna buy a buddy a handgun...which one?


PDA






Archangel14
February 11, 2013, 11:48 PM
I have a friend who did an absolutely huge favor for me recently. I won't get into it, but he essentially made me a really big chunk of coin. To show my gratitude to him, I want to purchase him a new handgun. He has expressed real interest in getting a handgun. He has ZERO experience with handguns.

So, I beg you fine gents for some recommendations. I'm thinking either a nice 4 inch stainless S&W .357 or a Glock 17. Any thoughts?

Thanks....

If you enjoyed reading about "Gonna buy a buddy a handgun...which one?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Zardaia
February 12, 2013, 12:04 AM
Take him to a range first and let him shoot yours, especialy if you have several he can try. Then when he really likes one, invite to go again next week and say "oh by the way, that one's yours". Hard to suggest for somone that has no experience.

BigJakeJ1s
February 12, 2013, 12:08 AM
Take him to a gun range where you can rent and he can try several handguns. If he has no experience, there is a low probability of you purchasing a handgun he will like to use.

Then go with him to purchase the handgun, and pay for it. That way it's legal. It is illegal for you to purchase a firearm with the intent of transferring it to another person (straw man purchases).

Andy

easyg
February 12, 2013, 12:20 AM
I would get him the S&W .357 magnum.

The 4" .357 revolver is one of the most versatile handguns ever created.
Great for self defense, great for home defense, great for plinking (with .38 special loads), and even good for hunting (depending upon your state laws).

Bovice
February 12, 2013, 12:21 AM
It isn't a straw purchase if you buy it with the intent of giving it as a gift to someone who can legally possess a gun. If you use your own money, it isn't a straw purchase.

ColtPythonElite
February 12, 2013, 12:43 AM
Every shooter needs a quality .22 handgun...

RetiredUSNChief
February 12, 2013, 12:53 AM
What does he want?

I recently bought my oldest brother a pistol for just that very reason...he helped me pay off a big chunk of my remaining debts by paying me for contract work on weekends that I went to visit him and ended up helping him out on various remodeling jobs and such.

During our many hours of discussions, it came out that he always wished he had a .22 revolver to carry for plinking and while hunting and fishing.

I decided that this would be a great idea to thank him for all the bills he's helped me to pay off. So I slipped in discussions of various types and models of .22 revolvers and ended up getting him a blued Ruger .22 Single Six Convertable in 5.5 inch barrel.

There are lots of ways to go about this...and making a game of it makes it pretty fun. I was able to narrow down what he'd like quite well, based on discussions of past revolvers he'd shot and so forth.

You might try that, plus taking him to some gun ranges that rents handguns to shoot since he's got "zero experience" with them. That would make it fun, interesting, and a tremendous learning event. And it will invariably come out that he would like one gun or another during all this.

:):)

allaroundhunter
February 12, 2013, 02:13 AM
Then go with him to purchase the handgun, and pay for it. That way it's legal. It is illegal for you to purchase a firearm with the intent of transferring it to another person (straw man purchases).

So long as his buddy can legally own a firearm then no, that is not a straw purchase. You are allowed to purchase guns with the specific intent to give them as gifts to someone who legally may own one(in many states at least).

bigfatdave
February 12, 2013, 03:02 AM
It is illegal for you to purchase a firearm with the intent of transferring it to another person (straw man purchases).this is incorrect, although it was inevetable that someone would spout off on the "oh noez, straw purchase!" topic
A gift isn't even in a grey area, it is specifically covered by the BATFE. When you buy a gun as a gift, you are the purchaser, and you are purchasing it for your own use (that use being as a gift)

===

Archangel14, I'll pile on with the "let him test drive a bunch" - buying guns for other people is generally an exercise in futility, particularly for handguns. Read the big thread at the top of the "general handguns" section about purchasing for wives/girlfriends - most of the concepts there apply here.
If you must buy him a handgun blindly, a good .22lr target pistol is your best bet.

bannockburn
February 12, 2013, 05:51 AM
If you want to get him a first gun without him knowing knowing about it, then I would say a .22 semi-auto would be a perfect gift. A Ruger Mk.III, Browning Buckmark, or Beretta Neos are all great choices for a beginners gun to start out with.

Mp7
February 12, 2013, 05:57 AM
Get him a .22 revolver.

A good one.

WoodchuckAssassin
February 12, 2013, 07:06 AM
Depending on the size of your friend, it might be ok to take a jump or two past a .22 (even though a .22 is THE BEST first-gun caliber).

I recently took a good friend of mine handgun shooting for the first time. He's 6'9" - 380 lbs...so I left the 22's at home :D I took my 1911 and my S&W 686. He loved both of the guns, but REALLY liked the .45.

I think a nice 9mm - a beretta, High Point, or Ruger SR9c (there's someone on this forum selling one right now for a reasonable price) - would be nice. Not too much punch to handle, relatively cheep ammo, and something you can shoot all day!

mgmorden
February 12, 2013, 07:41 AM
A Glock 17 is a fine working gun, but IMHO the revolver is a better gift gun. A little more classy, and a little more sentimental. Plus the heavier longer trigger will be a bit safer for a newbie.

WYO
February 12, 2013, 08:56 AM
I once gave a friend a gun as a finder’s fee for getting us in a FSBO house we really wanted at a very reasonable price. I brought him to a gun store and we were looking at guns for me. He started looking at stuff and thought a Colt AR15 was cool, and I paid for it and he filled out the paperwork. If your friend is interested in shooting, tell him you would love to take him shooting. See what he likes and either buy him something he likes or hand one of yours over (subject to the requirements of applicable law). If you have the time to spend, giving the time to teach someone a new skill can be more valuable than the physical gift. Turning someone with ZERO experience loose with a new gun may not be such a great idea.

Arkansas Paul
February 12, 2013, 09:05 AM
I like the idea of a nice Smith .357 myself. He can shoot powderpuff .38 loads until he's comfortable enough to handle full throttle stuff.
That's just me, don't know if he would share my opinions.

SleazyRider
February 12, 2013, 09:09 AM
If I can ever help you out with anything, please let me know. :)

psyopspec
February 12, 2013, 09:12 AM
I paid for it and he filled out the paperwork.

This is an example of a straw purchase. On a 4473, one of the questions (I believe it's the first) is "Are you the actual the purchaser of the firearm?" To which your friend, if answering honestly, would have had to mark "No" since you were buying it.

BSA1
February 12, 2013, 09:16 AM
Another vote for a 22 LR, either revolver or semi-auto based on personal preference.

Ammo is cheap and plentiful (well someday again ;)) so it will encourage practice without breaking the bank.

WYO
February 12, 2013, 09:21 AM
Quote:
I paid for it and he filled out the paperwork.

This is an example of a straw purchase. On a 4473, one of the questions (I believe it's the first) is "Are you the actual the purchaser of the firearm?" To which your friend, if answering honestly, would have had to mark "No" since you were buying it.

I donated money to him and he bought the gun for himself. I never took possession of it. I never owned it. He took possession and ownership of it.

mgmorden
February 12, 2013, 09:22 AM
This is an example of a straw purchase. On a 4473, one of the questions (I believe it's the first) is "Are you the actual the purchaser of the firearm?" To which your friend, if answering honestly, would have had to mark "No" since you were buying it.

Psyop is right here. It doesn't matter who is actually going to end up using the gun - its all in who is the funding source.

If you buy a gun with your own money and then give the gun as a gift, then you are the funding source and its legal.

If you pay for the gun but he fills out the paperwork and takes possession then that's a straw purchase, as the person filling out the paperwork did not supply the funds and was not the buyer.

Archangel14
February 12, 2013, 09:27 AM
great feedback....never thought of a .22. I think I'll just take him to the gun store and have him pick it out. Thanks!:)

DeadFlies
February 12, 2013, 09:27 AM
A .22 pistol (I prefer semi-autos) is, IMHO, the best place to start. Buying him a centerfire pistol may not be quite so much a favor as a burden. He's still gotta feed the thing.

Rimfire ammo is cheap. Centerfire...not so much.

WYO
February 12, 2013, 09:35 AM
If you pay for the gun but he fills out the paperwork and takes possession then that's a straw purchase, as the person filling out the paperwork did not supply the funds and was not the buyer.


If someone donates money to another person, and the person uses the money to buy a gun, and the donee is the purchaser, takes possession and ownership and fills out the paperwork, are you suggesting that the donee of the money is not the owner?

Are you suggesting that the person who completes the paperwork under those circumstances is buying the firearm for the person who supplied the money and that title never passed to the person completing the paperwork?

mgmorden
February 12, 2013, 09:40 AM
If someone donates money to another person, and the person uses the money to buy a gun, and the donee is the purchaser, takes possession and ownership and fills out the paperwork, are you suggesting that the donee of the money is not the owner?

Are you suggesting that the person who completes the paperwork under those circumstances is buying the firearm for the person who supplied the money and that title never passed to the person completing the paperwork?

Depends on how its handled. If before you guys go you give him $500 (as an example - the amount is irrelevant) and say "this is for you to buy yourself a gun, lets go pick it out", then you're fine. You didn't give him a gun - you gave him money. He can then buy it.

If however, you go, he picks out a gun, fills out the paperwork, and you then hand him or the the clerk the money, then you're the buyer. Doesn't matter if he's taking possession of the gun or not - you were the one that bought it and you needed to be the one filling out the 4473.

Its a subtle distinction (giving him money ahead of time vs paying right here, or buying the gun yourself and giving that to him instead), but firearms law is filled with such subtle distinctions.

WYO
February 12, 2013, 09:44 AM
It's not just firearms law. It is the law of donations, property law and contracts.

mgmorden
February 12, 2013, 09:59 AM
It's not just firearms law. It is the law of donations, property law and contracts.

Firearms are subject to lots of laws that don't apply to other purchasing situations. You can't straw purchase a trampoline. There are special circumstances that come into play when the item being purchased is a firearm.

I stated earlier, if you had over the money for the gun directly or by proxy, then you are the purchaser of the firearms, regardless of who ultimately takes possession.

RetiredUSNChief
February 12, 2013, 10:09 AM
Here's what one source has to say about straw purchases of firearms:

A “straw purchase” occurs when the actual buyer of a firearm uses another person, a “straw purchaser,” to execute the paperwork necessary to purchase a firearm from a federally licensed firearms dealer (FFL). A straw purchaser is a person with a clean background who purchases firearms specifically on behalf of a person prohibited from purchasing a firearm because he or she is a convicted felon, domestic violence misdemeanants, juvenile, mentally ill individual or other federally or state-defined prohibited person. The straw purchaser violates federal law by making a false statement to the FFL about a material fact by lying on ATF Form 4473 (the firearm transaction record) or presenting false identification in connection with the purchase.

Source:

http://smartgunlaws.org/straw-purchases-policy-summary/


The underlying key element here is that the gun is intentionally purchased by a person who is legally allowed to buy a firearm for the purpose of providing it to another who is prohibited from purchasing, owning, or possessing a firearm. Yes, technically answering the questions wrong on the documentation qualifies because you're falsifying information. It could probably be argued in a court successfully under these circumstances so long as he was legally able to purchase the firearm. (and he must be if the check comes back OK.)

However, it's recommended that shady areas in terms of definitions be avoided by making sure that the transaction is clearly NOT a straw purchase by a variety of means.

The best would be to provide the other person with a gift certificate, gift card, or other monetary gift beforehand, which he could make the purchase himself. He is thus clearly the recipient of a cash gift which he may legally spend as he sees fit.

Another way would be to make the purchase yourself and then give it as a gift. You may do this in a variety of ways. One is to annotate that it's a gift on the forms you fill out at the time of purchase. Another is to make it a private transaction afterwards, and keep the records for posterity. If you do this as a private transaction, the onus is completely on you to ensure (with reasonable knowledge) that he is legally able to otherwise purchase a firearm. If you and your friend are residents of different states, you must do the transfer through an FFL.


I would say that it's clear that the INTENT here was not to conduct an actual straw purchase. We can argue about semantics and legal interpretations all day: However, the lesson that you should walk away with is that you should ALWAYS conduct these types of transactions in a way which leaves no legal doubt that it was not a straw purchase.

:)

beatledog7
February 12, 2013, 10:21 AM
Legal issues aside, buying a gun for a friend would be sort of like buying that friend a dog or selecting for him a girlfriend.

A firearm is personal, something that can be properly selected only by the person who's going to use it. Advice is fine, but the final choice should be in the hands that will hold that gun.

allaroundhunter
February 12, 2013, 10:33 AM
Legal issues aside, buying a gun for a friend would be sort of like buying that friend a dog or selecting for him a girlfriend.

That might be the only way some of us can get girlfriends :neener:

holdencm9
February 12, 2013, 11:06 AM
Legal issues aside, buying a gun for a friend would be sort of like buying that friend a dog or selecting for him a girlfriend.

A firearm is personal, something that can be properly selected only by the person who's going to use it. Advice is fine, but the final choice should be in the hands that will hold that gun.

I disagree. If I had the funds, I could name about 3 perfect gift guns for several of my friends, just based on our guy-talk conversations and them telling me what they like, dislike, hate/love, et cetera. I could also probably pick out some girlfriends for them too. Maybe I just know my friends. For the OP's friend, I think a .22LR would be good, being new to handguns, and a revolver is always a good choice for a newbie, but if you think he might be interested in your centerfire semi-autos down the road, a semi-auto .22 may be better for him.

Anyway, even if this particular friend hasn't explicitly stated, "Gee, I sure would love to have a .22LR revolver, something like a blued Ruger .22 Single Six Convertable in 5.5 inch barrel..." being new to guns, you can reasonably think of a good fit for him, and then it is a more meaningful gift than to say "here is $500, go buy yourself a gun." I think way too much is made of being a "perfect fit" and such, especially for someone who will only use it at the range. Also, I have never met a person who hasn't comfortably shot my Buck Mark, and loved it. That might also be a good gift, although I do think a nice revolver in a slick presentation box would be awesome.

Regarding the straw purchase, my parents had bought me one gun and I filled out the paperwork. We were unsure if I had to pay for it (my mom brought their checkbook to write me a check after I paid for it, if necessary). We just asked the clerks at Cabela's and they said it didn't matter, so my parents put it on their plastic. I think "purchaser" is misleading. They don't care who pays for it, so much as who takes possession.

Frank Ettin
February 12, 2013, 11:25 AM
I paid for it and he filled out the paperwork.

This is an example of a straw purchase. On a 4473, one of the questions (I believe it's the first) is "Are you the actual the purchaser of the firearm?" To which your friend, if answering honestly, would have had to mark "No" since you were buying it....If you buy a gun with your own money and then give the gun as a gift, then you are the funding source and its legal.

If you pay for the gun but he fills out the paperwork and takes possession then that's a straw purchase, as the person filling out the paperwork did not supply the funds and was not the buyer.There's a whole lot of misunderstanding about what an illegal straw purchase is. See this thread (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=700331) and note post 23:...LEGALLY (folllowing all rules and regulations) buying 2* guns in my name with the explicit intent of selling 1 of those to a friend (also following all rules and regulations regarding private transfers) can not be considered a straw purchase, ...Wrong.

...A straw purchase is not solely "buying for a prohibited person", but buying on behalf of ANYONE else.....from a licensed dealer. Correct.

The actual offense is violation of 18 USC 922(a)(6), making a false statement on the 4473 (specifically about who is the actual buyer), and has nothing to do with the ultimate recipient being a prohibited person.

See the ATF publication Federal Firearms Regulation Reference Guide, 2005, (www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf) at page 165 (emphasis added):15. STRAW PURCHASES

Questions have arisen concerning the lawfulness of firearms purchases from licensees by persons who use a "straw purchaser" (another person) to acquire the firearms. Specifically, the actual buyer uses the straw purchaser to execute the Form 4473 purporting to show that the straw purchaser is the actual purchaser of the firearm. In some instances, a straw purchaser is used because the actual purchaser is prohibited from acquiring the firearm. That is to say, the actual purchaser is a felon or is within one of the other prohibited categories of persons who may not lawfully acquire firearms or is a resident of a State other than that in which the licensee's business premises is located. Because of his or her disability, the person uses a straw purchaser who is not prohibited from purchasing a firearm from the licensee. In other instances, neither the straw purchaser nor the actual purchaser is prohibited from acquiring the firearm.

In both instances, the straw purchaser violates Federal law by making false statements on Form 4473 to the licensee with respect to the identity of the actual purchaser of the firearm, as well as the actual purchaser's residence address and date of birth. The actual purchaser who utilized the straw purchaser to acquire a firearm has unlawfully aided and abetted or caused the making of the false statements. The licensee selling the firearm under these circumstances also violates Federal law if the licensee is aware of the false statements on the form. It is immaterial that the actual purchaser and the straw purchaser are residents of the State in which the licensee's business premises is located, are not prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms, and could have lawfully purchased firearms...

So, if --


X says to Y, "Here's the money; buy that gun and then we'll do the transfer to me [when I get back to town, or whenever else].", or


X says to Y, "Buy that gun and hold it for me; I'll buy from you when I get my next paycheck."

or anything similar, if Y then buys the gun, he is not the actual buyer. He is buying the gun as the agent of X, on his behalf; and X is legally the actual buyer. If Y claims on the 4473 that he is the actual buyer, he has lied and violated 18 USC 922(a)(6). His subsequently transferring the gun to X in full compliance with the law, does not erase his prior criminal act of lying on the 4473.

Some more examples --

If X takes his own money, buys the gun and gives the gun to someone else as a gift, free and clear without reimbursement of any kind, X is the actual purchaser; and it is not a straw purchase.


If X takes his money and buys the gun honestly intending to keep it for himself and later sells it to another person, X is the actual purchaser; and it is not a straw purchase.


If X takes his money and buys the gun intending to take it to the gun show next week to see if he might be able to sell it to someone at a profit, X is the actual purchaser; and it's not a straw purchase. He may, however have other problems if he manages to sell the gun at the gun show, and the transfer there isn't handled properly. He might also have problems if he does this sort of thing too frequently, and the ATF decides he's acting as a dealer without the necessary license.


If X takes his money and buys the gun with the understanding that he is going to transfer the gun to Y and that Y is going to reimburse him for it, X is not the actual purchaser. He is advancing X the money and buying the gun for and on behalf of Y, as Y's agent. So this would be an illegal straw purchase.

Whether or not a transaction is an unlawful straw purpose will often be a question of intent. But prosecutors in various situations can convince juries of intent, often from circumstantial evidence. A slip of the tongue, posting something on the Internet, tracks left by money transfers have all, in one way or another, and in various contexts, helped convince a jury of intent.

powder
February 12, 2013, 11:53 AM
I recommend the S&W .357 wheel guns for noobs: simple to operate and can run .38 Special loads for plinking and learning. You're a great friend!

JellyJar
February 12, 2013, 02:34 PM
To avoid inadvertently committing an illegal straw sale find out if you can get a gift certificate for the gun in question. Let him go by himself to the GS to purchase it so they won't think you are having him buy it for you.

Also, see if the GS will allow him to purchase a different gun instead in case he would rather have something different.

CPshooter
February 12, 2013, 02:47 PM
I'm not sure why people are arguing about straw purchases here. If both of you are legally allowed to purchase and own the firearm in question, why does it matter who pays for it? Did I miss an important detail somewhere?

CPshooter
February 12, 2013, 02:49 PM
This is an example of a straw purchase. On a 4473, one of the questions (I believe it's the first) is "Are you the actual the purchaser of the firearm?" To which your friend, if answering honestly, would have had to mark "No" since you were buying it.I disagree. This question is asking whether or not the person filling out the 4473 is the person who will actually end up taking ownership of the firearm. It is not asking, "Are you the actual supplier of the funds used to purchase the firearm?" It's amazing how people like to read into things that aren't even there.

Onward Allusion
February 12, 2013, 03:31 PM
Good gawd. So many wannabe lawyers here. OP should either give his friend the cash and let him do whatever he wants with it OR go and buy the gun by himself and gift it to the friend. The OP is really purchasing the gun for himself, so that he can make a gift of it to his buddy. What's the difference between that and buying and gifting the friend a hammer? OP can make it less complex by not involving his friend and make it a surprise. Better yet, get the friend a gift card or cash!

It really isn't that complicated. Really. ;)

Frank Ettin
February 12, 2013, 03:47 PM
...So many wannabe lawyers here...Don't forget, I'm a real lawyer.

...OP should either give his friend the cash and let him do whatever he wants with it OR go and buy the gun by himself and gift it to the friend. The OP is really purchasing the gun for himself, so that he can make a gift of it to his buddy...Correct. It is perfectly legal to buy a person a gun as a gift. Of course the transfer to the recipient must comply with applicable state law.

Frank Ettin
February 12, 2013, 04:39 PM
I'm not sure why people are arguing about straw purchases here. If both of you are legally allowed to purchase and own the firearm in question, why does it matter who pays for it? Did I miss an important detail somewhere?Yes you did miss an important detail. See post 31.

It all has to do with an area of law called "agency" or "principal and agent." But instead of going into a lengthy discussion of that area of the law, I'll simply point you to the April 2012 revision of the 4473 (www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf) and the instructions for question 11.a (emphasis in original):

Question 11.a. Actual Transferee/Buyer:...ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER EXAMPLES: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT THE ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER of the firearm and must answer "NO" to question 11.a....

CPshooter
February 12, 2013, 05:06 PM
Yes you did miss an important detail. See post 31.

It all has to do with an area of law called "agency" or "principal and agent." But instead of going into a lengthy discussion of that area of the law, I'll simply point you to the April 2012 revision of the 4473 (www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf) and the instructions for question 11.a (emphasis in original):
No offense, but I wouldn't pay you to be my lawyer. :-)

The scenario presented with Mr. Smith and Mr. Jones is not even close to the situation we are discussing. Not sure how that applies here.

I still don't see what the argument is here. OP is merely funding a purchase that his friend is making for himself. His friend would be the actual purchaser of the firearm because he is the intended recipient and owner, regardless of who paid for it. Would you say buying a firearm for yourself and paying with a credit card is illegal too? In both cases, you are buying the gun for yourself with someone else's money. Nothing about that is illegal.

Bobson
February 12, 2013, 05:14 PM
Take him to a range first and let him shoot yours, especialy if you have several he can try. Then when he really likes one, invite to go again next week and say "oh by the way, that one's yours". Hard to suggest for somone that has no experience.
Best idea so far, as its the only foolproof route. I would never buy anyone a gun without the person first expressing significant interest in the gun in question. Doesn't matter how classy you might think a gift is, some people just don't have any interest in a revolver.

Frank Ettin
February 12, 2013, 05:22 PM
The scenario presented with Mr. Smith and Mr. Jones is not even close to the situation we are discussing. Not sure how that applies here. It's true that it's not related to the OP's question. But the discussion of what constitutes a straw purchase arose because so many folks in this thread were confused and suggesting that the OP was engaged in a straw purchase.

And the Smith and Jones situation is directly responsive to your ignorant statement:...If both of you are legally allowed to purchase and own the firearm in question, why does it matter who pays for it?...The point is that it can matter who pays for it.

...No offense, but I wouldn't pay you to be my lawyer...You couldn't pay me to be your lawyer. I'm comfortably retired now and have no need to work.

s9601694
February 12, 2013, 06:39 PM
a .22 are you guys kidding?!

Get him a Glock 19 gen 4, shoots like a 17 but is still concealable (if he ever wants to go get his CHP) and its a REAL gun! Anyone can shoot a 9mm glock, my daughter started shooting my Glock 17 when she was 12 and had nice groupings at 15 feet!


You will give him a handgun he will always love the best out of all his guns (unless he ends up getting a 23 one day)

(i really like Glocks if you hadn't noticed)

Manny
February 12, 2013, 06:57 PM
If your friend is a newbie to guns I think a revolver would serve best. If you like S&W's the 686 SSR would be my choice. A factory custom that is something really special IMO.

I like your idea for showing appreciation, were I the "giftee" I would be mighty happy.

C0untZer0
February 12, 2013, 10:24 PM
If I'm not mistaken there is quite a price difference between a G17 and a S&W revolver.

I think a S&W Model 63 is a great revolver, very nice SA trigger.

I also like the 7.25 Buckmark

If I was going to get someone a Glock I'd get the a 17L and drop in a trigger kit. Because of it's size / long slide, it's a pretty soft shooter.

ku4hx
February 13, 2013, 11:04 AM
Deleted: redundant post

returningfire
February 13, 2013, 11:13 AM
If your friend has no handgun experience, then buy them a revolver, any kind. If they don't like it go with them to trade, help them make their decision for something they like and at that point let them fill out the 4473. You can buy a gun and give it to your friend and it is not a straw purchase as long as that person is not prohibited from owning a firearm.

Furncliff
February 13, 2013, 01:16 PM
Just my take... an heirloom type .22

Easy shooting, great triggers, accurate, all quality's that will make a new shooter feel good about handguns.

Examples might be guns that have stood the test of time. Find an older well kept piece.

High Standard target models
S&W 41
S&W target revolvers

HankR
February 13, 2013, 05:52 PM
I think way too much is made of being a "perfect fit" and such, especially for someone who will only use it at the range.

You probably know him well enough to guess whether this will be his first gun or his only gun?

I guess I'd go for something cool (1911) if it was to be his first gun. Let him spring for the boring .22 that gets used 100 times as much. If it's to be his only gun, some more thought (and maybe some input from him) is required). Probably a 4 inch .357 revolver if it's to be more than a range toy--so he'll have options. j If only a range toy -- no self defense, then a .22. I'd go Ruger Mark III (prefer II personally, but I'd go "new" for a gift) or a single six (just like the cowboys used, kinda, only smaller holes).

Archangel14
February 13, 2013, 11:54 PM
Talked to my buddy tonight and asked him what type of handgun he's interested in (he doesn't know what I'm up to). He's not interested in a revolver. IMHO I think a solid .357 platform is a great starter piece. If I could have but one handgun, it would be a 4-inch .357. But I'm decided to get him a Glock 17. Reasonably priced, totally reliable, ammo is cheap (in normal times), as idiot proof as an autoloader can get. And handgun newbies go ga-ga over Glocks. In fact, I just helped a first time handgun buyer and he selected a Glock. No matter how I tried to expand his field of possibility, he just kept coming back to the Glock! I was thinking Sig, but for a first time hand gunner the Glock wins out.

So that's it gents....it will be a Glock. Thanks for all you input!

PS: for you worry warts, I'm going to have him do all the paper and I'll just put the purchase on my credit card. :evil:

s9601694
February 14, 2013, 12:33 AM
Talked to my buddy tonight and asked him what type of handgun he's interested in (he doesn't know what I'm up to). He's not interested in a revolver. IMHO I think a solid .357 platform is a great starter piece. If I could have but one handgun, it would be a 4-inch .357. But I'm decided to get him a Glock 17. Reasonably priced, totally reliable, ammo is cheap (in normal times), as idiot proof as an autoloader can get. And handgun newbies go ga-ga over Glocks. In fact, I just helped a first time handgun buyer and he selected a Glock. No matter how I tried to expand his field of possibility, he just kept coming back to the Glock! I was thinking Sig, but for a first time hand gunner the Glock wins out.

So that's it gents....it will be a Glock. Thanks for all you input!

PS: for you worry warts, I'm going to have him do all the paper and I'll just put the purchase on my credit card. :evil:

Great choice! If you run into a 19 before a 17 don't hesitate ;)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

RetiredUSNChief
February 14, 2013, 06:25 AM
So that's it gents....it will be a Glock. Thanks for all you input!

PS: for you worry warts, I'm going to have him do all the paper and I'll just put the purchase on my credit card. :evil:

Congratulations!

However, I think you should re-read the posts people have been making on the subject of "straw man" buying. Most especially post #31.

Don't mix and match the paperwork and payment between two people. Frank Ettin's postings opened my eyes on this a little bit because he looks at these things through the eyes of a lawyer. Though I do not personally believe that this constitutes a straw purchase, what I think and what the law may think aren't always the same thing.

Regardless of what people may think and interpret on whether or not this may be considered a straw purchase, it is common sense to stay out of the grey areas on this when it comes to firearms.

Get him a gift card or some such other monitary gift and let him do the actual purchase, from the paperwork all the way down to the actual payment. It would be a simple matter to figure out what it would actually cost, including taxes and maybe a box of ammunition or a holster, and get him a Visa gift card or a store gift certificate.

:)


And please drop us a note to let us know what your friend thinks of it.

hentown
February 14, 2013, 07:51 AM
Buying a handgun or any other firearm for a friend or relative as a gift isn't a straw purchase. A straw purchase is when one buys a firearm for somebody who isn't eligible to buy a firearm from an FFL.

michaelbsc
February 14, 2013, 08:19 AM
Buying a handgun or any other firearm for a friend or relative as a gift isn't a straw purchase. A straw purchase is when one buys a firearm for somebody who isn't eligible to buy a firearm from an FFL.

I think BATFE sees a straw purchase broader than this. Even if the intended ultimate recepient is eligible it is a straw purchase if an intermediary is used to hide the identity of the "real" purchaser. That's actually the meaning of straw purchase. Like some states have a limit on the number of handgun purchases in a specific number of days, so you buy an extra one for them.

Obviously when buying someone a present you aren't intending to hide their identity from the NCIS check. You're intending to hide the fact that they're getting a birthday present from the recipient.

The government really doesn't care what information you hide from your brother or your fishing buddy. They care what you hide from the government.

Sam1911
February 14, 2013, 08:37 AM
Buying a handgun or any other firearm for a friend or relative as a gift isn't a straw purchase. A straw purchase is when one buys a firearm for somebody who isn't eligible to buy a firearm from an FFL.

WOW, this is getting exasperating! Frank has laid this out very clearly and we even have a sticky thread on it!

A straw purchase happens ANY TIME the person filling out the paperwork is not the actual buyer of the gun. It does not matter if the person who is really buying the gun is prohibited from owning the gun or not.

If your own wife or brother says, "here's $500, go buy me a Glock," that would be a straw purchase.

If you buy a gun with the intent to GIVE it to someone as a GIFT, that is not a straw purchase. You bought it (with your money) to give to someone as a gift. You are the purchaser.

(Now, if you then give it to your neighbor who you know is a felon, that's another set of crimes, but NOT a straw purchase.)

tarosean
February 14, 2013, 09:48 AM
In attempt to get it back on track, go with the revolver.

Sam1911
February 14, 2013, 10:27 AM
In attempt to get it back on track, go with the revolver.

Well...he's already posted THIS:

So that's it gents....it will be a Glock. Thanks for all you input!

So, seeing as the "ON" track is now at the end of the line, let's close this rather than rehash the straw purchase question further.

But I'll make a final comment regarding this:

PS: for you worry warts, I'm going to have him do all the paper and I'll just put the purchase on my credit card.
Just buy the gun, fill out the paperwork, take it to him and GIVE it to him as a gift. That's legal and doesn't make the dealer wonder, "what's "really" going on here? :scrutiny:"

Frank Ettin
February 14, 2013, 11:04 AM
I'm just going to add this final note by way of clarification.

...Though I do not personally believe that this constitutes a straw purchase, what I think and what the law may think aren't always the same thing...What the OP plans to do, as described in post 49:...I'm going to have him do all the paper and I'll just put the purchase on my credit card...would not be a straw purchase and would be legal, since the buddy winds up with the gun. It's one way of buying a gift.

But as Sam pointed out, it's likely to raise some eyebrows, and it's seems to have been the the experience of others who have posted in other threads on this subject that staff at local gun shops often have an imperfect understanding of the law here. Of course, if the OP has built a relationship with the folks at that gun shop, they might accept his explanation.

It would be clean, as Sam suggests, for the OP to just buy the gun and then give it to his friend, but since they're in California, that transfer would also have to go through an FFL. Or the OP could just give his friend the cash.

If you enjoyed reading about "Gonna buy a buddy a handgun...which one?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!