Taper Crimp Not Even Needed?


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vtail
February 12, 2013, 12:01 AM
I've started loading some 40S&W and I'm concerned I was over taper crimping.

So tonight, using a set of three Redding dies on a LNL, I seated a Montana Gold 180JHP to 1.125, and then started backing out the taper crimp until it would no longer pass the Plunk test into my barrel.

To my surprise, I was able to entirely remove the taper crimp die and still pass the test. The seating die must be doing some crimping, but is it enough?

It looks like all of the bell is removed, except for maybe a tiny bit at the end, but at this point, does it matter?

For the record, I put the bullet against the bench and pushed on the back of the case as hard as I could and didn't budge the bullet.

Should I even bother with the taper crimp die??

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mgmorden
February 12, 2013, 12:16 AM
Virtually all seating dies have a "crimping" function built in. I started on Lee 4-die sets for handgun and always crimped as an extra step using the FCD, but the longer I've loaded I've become more and more of the opinion that a separate crimp step is completely unnecessary (and a time waster since I'm a single-stage loader).

When you put in your seater, take a freshly sized case that hasn't been expanded. Raise it in the ram. Screw down the seater die until it contacts that case. Thats the point where the bell is removed. Asjust the seater plug as needed to get your desired seating depth but other than that you're good to go.

rcmodel
February 12, 2013, 12:26 AM
Should I even bother with the taper crimp die?? Yes.

The taper crimp die IS the seating die.

Adjust it to seat to the proper OAL, remove the case mouth bell, and Fuggedaboutit.

The Taper-Crimp does not hold the bullet in place, and the more you make it crimp, the looser the case neck tension gets.

It makes the case like a factory load again so it feeds right.
Thats all it does.

But you DO need to use it.

rc

Drail
February 12, 2013, 12:27 AM
If you have sufficient case neck tension (which you do if you cannot press the bullet in by hand) then you do not really need hardly any crimp. Just flare as little as possible and remove any flare that will not allow the round to fall in and out of a chamber or gauge.

Waywatcher
February 12, 2013, 12:30 AM
For my .40 reloads I taper crimp 0.001" and no more. They work perfectly!

Bovice
February 12, 2013, 12:31 AM
That tiny little bit that is still belled DOES matter. Get rid of that or you'll have rounds that don't quite feed. That little edge will snag.

vtail
February 12, 2013, 01:03 AM
Yes.

The taper crimp die IS the seating die.

Adjust it to seat to the proper OAL, remove the case mouth bell, and Fuggedaboutit.

The Taper-Crimp does not hold the bullet in place, and the more you make it crimp, the looser the case neck tension gets.

It makes the case like a factory load again so it feeds right.
Thats all it does.

But you DO need to use it.

rc
Wait, what?

I'm not understanding this statement:

"The taper crimp die IS the seating die."

Do you mean I should attempt to adjust the seating die to remove ALL of the remaining bell, (which is almost nonexistant), and not even use the separate taper crimp die at all?

Waywatcher
February 12, 2013, 01:11 AM
The taper crimp die has the seater plug already in it. The bell should be removed and verified to have been removed with a caliper.

vtail
February 12, 2013, 01:16 AM
The taper crimp die has the seater plug already in it. The bell should be removed and verified to have been removed with a caliper.
My taper crimp die is hollow.

My seater die has the seater plug in it. Whether it is capable of removing all of the remaining bell is yet to be seen.

If not, I suppose I will have to use the taper crimp die as well. I know it can, as it was doing it before. I was just worried perhaps I was over doing it.

This is really all academic as I have an open station on my LNL, so it's really no big deal to use the taper crimp die, I was just wondering if I really needed to use it at all.

bds
February 12, 2013, 01:29 AM
I put the bullet against the bench and pushed on the back of the case as hard as I could and didn't budge the bullet.
Better QC check for neck tension is measuring the OALs before/after feeding the finished rounds from the magazine with the slide locked back then releasing the slide.

If you have significant reduction in OAL, then you have neck tension issue.

I used to do the same then saw reduction in OAL when they were fed from the magazine, which better duplicates the actual feeding/chambering action/pressure.

1SOW
February 12, 2013, 01:32 AM
You do need to remove the bell to have reliable feed.

vtail
February 12, 2013, 01:33 AM
Better QC check for neck tension is measuring the OALs before/after feeding the finished rounds from the magazine with the slide locked back then releasing the slide.

If you have significant reduction in OAL, then you have neck tension issue.

I used to do the same then saw reduction in OAL when they were fed from the magazine, which better duplicates the actual feeding/chambering action/pressure.
Will do. That's a good idea.

Thanks for the tip.

vtail
February 12, 2013, 01:34 AM
You do need to remove the bell to have reliable feed.
To totally remove the last little bit of bell, I had to screw the taper crimp almost all of the way down to the shell plate. Scared I may be overdoing it.

May still be able to remove it with the seater die only. Will try it tomorrow.

Lost Sheep
February 12, 2013, 01:45 AM
Is everybody talking about jacketed brass (which tends to be just the size of the barrel, as opposed to lead which tends to be a little larger)?

Lead bullets need a little bit more flare than jacketed or plated bullets in order to fit the bullet base into the case mouth. So, there is a little more flare to remove.

If you have bullets with beveled bases and put them on the case mouth perfectly square, I can see where you might not have to remove the flare or might not even need any flare at all TO remove.

In that case, you can probably get by without "taper crimping" your cases.

No surprise at all.

Lost Sheep

GLOOB
February 12, 2013, 04:49 AM
Sometimes it's true you don't need a crimp. Depends on your bullet, chamber, and flare. But it's still best to set the crimp ring on your seating die to where it at least touches the case mouth. This is so that the oddball long case that got more flare will get crimped, if not the rest of the batch.

cfullgraf
February 12, 2013, 07:42 AM
My taper crimp die is hollow.

My seater die has the seater plug in it. Whether it is capable of removing all of the remaining bell is yet to be seen.

If not, I suppose I will have to use the taper crimp die as well. I know it can, as it was doing it before. I was just worried perhaps I was over doing it.

This is really all academic as I have an open station on my LNL, so it's really no big deal to use the taper crimp die, I was just wondering if I really needed to use it at all.

Seating dies have a crimp ring built in. It is standard. I do not know of a seat die, particularly for handgun cartridges, that does not have a crimp ring machined into it.

To set the seater die to seat and crimp, back the seater stem out and adjust the die body down to get the desired crimp on a case with the bullet seated. Then, adjust the seater stem to get the over all cartridge length.

If you move the die body without moving the seater stem independently, your cartridge overall length will change. You can move only the seater stem and the crimp will not change while the cartridge overall length will.

Some folks prefer to crimp in a separate step from seating so they have a crimp die. In this case, back the seater die body back so that the internal crimp ring does not touch the case. Adjust the seater stem to the desired overall length.

Then, adjust the crimp die body to obtain the desired crimp.

For semi-automatic hand guns, you should remove the mouth belling from the case for reliable feeding. As said, with jacketed bullets, it is quite possible to expand the mouth just enough so that crimping is not necessary.

This is not possible with lead bullets. The lead bullets are soft and the case mouth will shave lead during seating if the mouth is not expanded enough.

Everybody seems to be saying the same thing, but not very clearly.

Hope this helps.

Dodge DeBoulet
February 12, 2013, 08:32 AM
This is not possible with lead bullets. The lead bullets are soft and the case mouth will shave lead during seating if the mouth is NOT expanded enough.

Everybody seems to be saying the same thing, but not very clearly.

Hope this helps.

Adding just a little bit more clarity :D

cfullgraf
February 12, 2013, 09:37 AM
Right, thanks

jlear56
February 12, 2013, 09:53 AM
Not trying to confuse the issue here but, I don't think my Dillon seating die crimps, If i do not run the seated round through the tapered crimp die, there is no way it will pass a chamber check!

As a matter of fact the Redding Comp Seating die does not remove the crimp either. :confused:

James2
February 12, 2013, 10:04 AM
Seating dies have a crimp ring built in. It is standard. I do not know of a seat die, particularly for handgun cartridges, that does not have a crimp ring machined into it.


^^^ This.

You can adjust the seating die to also give you the necessary crimp, and seat and crimp in one step with one die.

You can also set the seating die so that it does not crimp and crimp in another step with a crimp die. I have heard arguments for both methods, but for me it works just fine to crimp and seat in one operation with the seat die. Your mileage may vary, but whichever method you use, it is important to adjust the dies properly. If you are going to use both dies, make sure the seat die is not crimping so the crimp will be done in the crimp die.

If you take the seating stem out of the seat die and look into it you will be able to see the crimp ring. When adjusting the die, put a casing in the shell holder (no bullet) and run it up full stroke, then turn the die in until you feel some resistance. This is where the brass hits the crimp ring. Now if you don't want to crimp, back it off half a turn. If you do want to crimp, with a charged casing add a bullet and adjust the COAL, back off your seating stem while playing with the crimp, then play with the crimp. You get more crimp by turning the die in further. Once your crimp is right, with the ram full up turn the seating stem in to hit the bullet. Now you can seat and crimp in one operation.

cfullgraf
February 12, 2013, 10:10 AM
Not trying to confuse the issue here but, I don't think my Dillon seating die crimps, If i do not run the seated round through the tapered crimp die, there is no way it will pass a chamber check!

As a matter of fact the Redding Comp Seating die does not remove the crimp either. :confused:

Yes, I think the seater dies on my Dillon SDB pesses do not crimp. The SDB dies are a special case and only usable on the SDB press.

I am not sure about Dillon's 7/8-14 dies.

beatledog7
February 12, 2013, 10:16 AM
Sometimes you can achieve flattening of the flare by simply seating the bullet.

If you flared a case's opening to an interior diameter of .354 to seat a bullet with a bearing surface diameter of .355 and a rounded base (that rounding makes it possible), simply seating that bullet expands the interior case mouth diameter to .355, meaning the original flare to .354 is gone (it's now .355) before that case can reach the crimping ring. Crimping that case now is at best redundant and at worst liable to weaken neck tension.

Maybe you didn't even need to flare those cases at all.

jlear56
February 12, 2013, 10:36 AM
Again I am not trying to doubt what is being stated about seating and crimping in one step. I think it depends on the seating die that you are using.

Dillon seating dies for for straight wall cases do not crimp, there is no separate adjustment for the body and seating stem, the seating depth is set by screwing the die body down until the desired OAL is obtained. The seating stem is fixed within the die body.

Below is the description from Redding about the separate seating and crimping operation



COMPETITION BULLET SEATING DIE FOR HANDGUN & STRAIGHT WALL RIFLE CARTRIDGES
The Most Advanced Bullet
Alignment Available

Since the introduction of our competition seating die for rifle calibers,we have been asked to provide the same features in a precision bullet seater for straight wall cartridges. Because of our strict design criteria it was only natural that this die would become part of our Competition Series.

Advanced Bullet Alignment

Our design criteria called for positive alignment between the bullet and cartridge case prior to bullet seating.

We developed a very unique way to intentionally bias the bullet into alignment. Here is how it works:

The precision fitting seating stem is allowed to move well down into the chamber of the die to accomplish early bullet contact. The spring loading of the seating stem provides the positive alignment bias between its tapered nose and the bullet ogive. This spring loading and bullet alignment are maintained as the bullet and cartridge case move upward until the actual seating of the bullet begins.

This new Advanced Bullet Alignment feature assures you of the straightest possible bullet alignment for handgun & straight wall rifle cartridges.

Micrometer Adjustment

The micrometer adjustment simplifies setting and recording bullet seating depth. By recording the micrometer setting of your favorite reloads you can return to that same overall length by simply “dialing it in”. Switching bullets and experimentation has never been easier. The micrometer is calibrated in .001” increments, is infinitely adjustable and has a “zero” set feature that allows you to set your favorite load to zero if desired.

Separate Crimp

Competition shooters are reloaders who know that superior reloads are produced when bullet crimping is performed as a separate operation from bullet seating. This is a no compromise die with no crimping capability provided. A superior crimp will be accomplished by using our “Profile Crimp” or “Taper Crimp” die.

I don't mean to sound confrontational at all just trying to add a different perspective. :)

Otto
February 12, 2013, 10:42 AM
Yes.

The taper crimp die IS the seating die.


No, not necessarily. Hornady 40S&W seating dies incorporate a Roll crimp.
Taper crimp dies are sold separately.

cfullgraf
February 12, 2013, 10:58 AM
Again I am not trying to doubt what is being stated about seating and crimping in one step. I think it depends on the seating die that you are using.


Agreed, but seating dies that do not crimp are a minority. Thanks for the additional information.

In any case, I crimp handgun cartridges in a separate step any way so I could not tell you if any of my seater dies have crimp rings in them. :)

James2
February 12, 2013, 11:18 AM
Not trying to confuse the issue here but, I don't think my Dillon seating die crimps,

Perhaps not. I was looking at the Dillon dies on their site, and it says they have a separate crimper. What I don't understand is what die they are using for inside neck expanding and belling? Usually a 3 die set consists of a sizing die, an expanding die, (sometimes made as a powder through die) and a seating/crimping die.

Check out their site (http://www.dillonprecision.com/#/content/p/9/pid/24445/catid/4/Dillon_Carbide_Pistol_Dies__Three_Die_Sets_)

So in the three die set if there is a separate crimp die, what are they using for expanding and belling?

Jim Watson
February 12, 2013, 11:30 AM
Some comments without recommendation.

Progressive loaders make it easy to crimp in a separate step.

Back in my single stage days, I found that trying to tinker my RCBS seating die with roll crimp shoulder to just knock down the flare on .45 ACP was so tedious that I just did it separately anyhow. The combination of mixed brass and coarse adjustment by the die body threads was just beyond me.
I started out by bumping the loaded round into the mouth of the sizing die until I could buy a taper crimp die.

RCBS claims that their current seating die with simultaneous taper crimp will deliver better accuracy than separate steps. Which must mean that everybody else in the business is wrong.

I seldom buy factory loads except for defense hollowpoints but came by some Black Hills off a prize table. The jacketed bullets have straight case mouths or an imperceptable taper crimp. The lead SWCs have a HARD taper crimp, about .468" and are loaded a bit shorter than the Internet Standard of 1.2500". The one I saved for reference is 1.243".
They feed well and shoot accurately. I think I will be making some adjustments the next time I load SWCs.


James:
Dillon machines expand/flare with the "powder funnel" in the "powder die". The "powder funnel" comes with the press caliber conversion along with shellplate and locator buttons. So there is no need for an expander die and plug. The "powder die" is sold separately. One comes with the press but they are not expensive and it is usual to buy one for each caliber to save on setup time.
Redding makes "professional" die sets without expander for use on Dillons. Dillon recommends the brand for calibers they don't make.

fguffey
February 12, 2013, 11:40 AM
Bullet hold, I am the fan of bullet hold, I want all the bullet hold I can get.

Too much crimp? I can not get too much crimp. “PROBLEM!” Seating and crimping at the same time, a technique Dillon takes the time to explain why they think seating and crimping on the same station is a bad habit. I explained to them I was not starting over by purchasing all new dies and the 550B was one station short of 5, and again, I use the powder lock out die, then, we decided I could use my dies in their press and I could manage the crimp and seating of bullets and cases in the same manner that has always worked for me in the past.

Too much crimp loosens the bullet?? Crimping as described by Lyman in the old days instructed reloaders crimping bottle neck cases was a bad habit, even then cases length had to be the same length, there was no plus and or minus, the rational for not crimping had to do with the crimp of the case neck turned into the bullet when the crimp began, then they reminded the reloader the bullet was moving down as in being seated and that was a conflict, because? while the bullet was being seated and moving down the case neck was locking onto the bullet, Without case body/neck/shoulder support the locked down bullet bulged the neck below the crimp AND! if the reloader insisted on contusing to seat the bullet the ‘locked on bullet to the neck’ would crush the case and cause the shoulder to bulge etc., etc.. And that is the reason a reloader may not be betting the results they wanted.

Too much crimp, R. Lee’s book on modern reloading claims there is no such think as too much crimp, in the past bullets have been locked to the case with different methods, some were spiked, no one ever claimed the case had too much bullet hold, EXCEPT!!!!!!!! THOSE COLD WELD WELDED CASES TO THE BULLET in Aberdeen, MD, then we have to go back to the neck expanding before the bullet (lagging) gets started ‘time is a factor’. I will say WELDED BULLETS TO THE CASE could be a problem if the chamber had a tight neck.

Vtail, the OP, has decided the crimp was not necessary and uses “appears to...” several times. Fantastic, simply fantastic. ME? I crimp, I have 45 ACPs that like new ammo, off the shelf, new, factory never fired ammo. That is expensive and I am a reloader. To shoot reloads I am forced to make my 45 ACPs think they are getting new, factory over the counter ammo. After loading my 45 ACP ammo I make a second run through the press, I have found my 45s do not like cases that look like they swallowed a bullet so I use the carbide sizer die to remove the bulge, only the bulge, after removing the bulge my 45 ammo look factory loaded, enough so my pistols can not tell the difference.

In a conversation with a very disciplined reloader he suggested he could solve the problem, he loaded about 200 rounds and met me at the range, we started, same ol’ thing, my 45s did not like his ammo because his ammo looked like his cases swallowed the bullets, his cases had ‘bullet lines’ around the case. He had 5 other 45 shooters shooting/testing his ammo. I instructed him to ‘stay there’ while I returned home to remove the bulges (bullet lines). I returned to the range, loaded his ammo and without hesitation his ammo worked flawlessly.

And it was my fault, as in “Why don’t you fix it?” He looks at the targets and suggest applying the ‘LEAVER POLICY’ Leaver the way you founder.

F, Guffey

mgmorden
February 12, 2013, 01:13 PM
No, not necessarily. Hornady 40S&W seating dies incorporate a Roll crimp.
Taper crimp dies are sold separately.

Hornady sells .40S&W as a set with a seating die that incorporates either a Taper OR a Roll crimp. You buy the set that has the type of crimp that you want.

I personally have the Taper crimp set and my seating die applies a taper crimp just like any other 3-die pistol set.

Roll crimp version:
http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/6783

Taper crimp version:
http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/23046

Walkalong
February 12, 2013, 01:39 PM
As a matter of fact the Redding Comp Seating die does not remove the crimp eitherYep, they do not crimp.

Most standard seating dies have the appropriate crimp ledge machined in.

Hornady is putting a 45ish degree crimp ledge in all its sleeves these days. They roll crimp OK, but will do make a proper taper crimp. Dumb. (Cost/corner cutting) You need a separate crimp die with the Hornady seaters for auto calibers.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6354182&postcount=7
.

gamestalker
February 12, 2013, 03:57 PM
One last perspective regarding crimping rimless cartridges when seating jacketed bullets.

I stopped crimping my jacketed rimless reloads many years ago when I discovered that a nice even chamfer of the inside of the case mouth would allow for a straight and no shaving seat. In addition to time saved by not having to dink around with adjusting for a taper crimp, or experiencing over / under crimping due to varied case lengths, unless any of you are anal about keeping your ACP and other same type brass trimmed to matching lengths, don't bell, don't crimp, just a quick chamfer, seat em, and shoot em. Bullet set back, I've never experienced that. Over crimping, over belling, don't know what that looks likes on an ACP (rimless) case.

I can probably count on one hand the number of reloaders that do it like I do, BTW, all individuals who I have shared this neat little trick with. But those who experience on going issues with crimping rimless cartridges, a constant and on going topic here, and a never ending discussion at the range as well.

GS

Walkalong
February 12, 2013, 04:08 PM
Proper belling and proper crimping are so easy a caveman could do it.

Yep, for jacketed bullets one can get away with no belling in auto pistol calibers. I don't do it that way, but one can. :)

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