Computers Make dealers obsolete for background check.


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PedalBiker
February 12, 2013, 09:34 AM
Why is there any need to involve dealers in a background check?

As a buyer I should be able to fill out the NICS/state form. Once approved, I take the approval number and give it to the seller. The seller enters the number into the NICS/state database and verifies that it is valid and writes the confirmation number onto the bill of sale.

This all can be done on a smart phone. The seller never has to surrender personal information to anyone.

The form 4473 is another matter, but should have no bearing on the process, it's obsolete paper.

This saves time, is universal, since everyone has access to the system and provides private sellers the option of making a check for their own liability protection.

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kludge
February 12, 2013, 09:38 AM
And still won't stop criminals nor lunatics.

hso
February 12, 2013, 09:39 AM
http://www.tbi.state.tn.us/background_checks/toris.shtml

For $30 you can run a background check that isn't quite as extensive as the TICS check FFLs run.

It might provide a level of comfort for the seller if they don't know the buyer, but the majority of firearms buyers who engage in crimes don't acquire their firearms through personal sales. It won't move the needle on violent crimes.

huntsman
February 12, 2013, 10:11 AM
Why is there any need to involve dealers in a background check?

As a buyer I should be able to fill out the NICS/state form. Once approved, I take the approval number and give it to the seller. The seller enters the number into the NICS/state database and verifies that it is valid and writes the confirmation number onto the bill of sale.

This all can be done on a smart phone. The seller never has to surrender personal information to anyone.

The form 4473 is another matter, but should have no bearing on the process, it's obsolete paper.

This saves time, is universal, since everyone has access to the system and provides private sellers the option of making a check for their own liability protection.
you may think this is a reasonable process but I don't. Buying or selling any of my other tools doesn't require a check why should my guns? I'd rather burry my guns or cut them up than participate in more bureaucratic malaise.

Sam Cade
February 12, 2013, 10:24 AM
You may think this is a reasonable process but I don't.Buying or selling any of my other tools doesn't require a check why should my guns?

Playing the devils advocate for a moment, but imagine this scenario:

You sell a pistol to your cousin Bob. Unknown to you, Bob plead guilty to a misdemeanor DV in 1982.

Bob gets caught with the pistol and tells the Cops that it came from you.


If your local prosecutor is bored you now get to prove that you didn't know Bob was a prohibited person or pick up a felony charge.

PedalBiker
February 12, 2013, 10:26 AM
you may think this is a reasonable process but I don't. Buying or selling any of my other tools doesn't require a check why should my guns? I'd rather burry my guns or cut them up than participate in more bureaucratic malaise.

???? Who said I support background checks???

We live in an Orwellian world of data mining in which nearly everything you do leaves a digital footprint. Your real battle is elsewhere.

I'm proposing to simplify an existing process as well as making a voluntary access point for private sales while not requiring a busy, overworked and 50 mile away FFL.

Akita1
February 12, 2013, 10:29 AM
Playing the devils advocate for a moment, but imagine this scenario:

You sell a pistol to your cousin Bob. Unknown to you, Bob plead guilty to a misdemeanor DV in 1982.

Bob gets caught with the pistol and tells the Cops that it came from you.


If your local prosecutor is bored you now get to prove that you didn't know Bob was a prohibited person or pick up a felony charge.
Good point. If I do a private sale in FL I require that the buyer have a valid/active CC license or use a friend who has FFL handle the transfer for $20.

hso
February 12, 2013, 10:31 AM
My local Gander put in 3 computer stations at the firearms counter so buyers could complete the 4473 electronically here in TN. This saved their counter staff from having to input it for the customer.

Sam Cade
February 12, 2013, 10:32 AM
If I do a private sale in FL I require that the buyer have a valid/active CC license or use a friend who has FFL handle the transfer for $20.

I think that is a very wise SOP.

Akita1
February 12, 2013, 10:40 AM
My local Gander put in 3 computer stations at the firearms counter so buyers could complete the 4473 electronically here in TN. This saved their counter staff from having to input it for the customer.
Same here at East Orange Shooting Sports in Winter Park, FL. You fill out the 4473 on a computer station (feels like a Starbucks) and they finish it & run it through electronically - takes a lot less time than hard copies & phone calls.

kludge
February 12, 2013, 11:08 AM
If your local prosecutor is bored you now get to prove that you didn't know Bob was a prohibited person or pick up a felony charge.

Wrong, the prosecutor gets to prove that you DID know.

dayhiker
February 12, 2013, 11:23 AM
Depends on where you live.

Here in CT all handgun sales have to go through the state. A private seller has the same access to the State background check as a FFL, it is required (and is free). You also need the same State paper work (also free).

I miss the days of private sales of handguns.:(

Old Fuff
February 12, 2013, 11:27 AM
The problem with all of these alternative proposals is that while they are well intended the legislators in Washington are paying absolutely no attention, and couldn't care less about what you might think is acceptable and what is not.

The bills entered in both the Senate and House on Universal Background Checks offer one way, and one way only.

PRIVATE SALES MUST BE CONDUCTED THROUGH AN FFL! Period.

That means the buyer must fill out a 4473 form, and one or both of the parties must pay the dealer a fee in whatever amount he demands.

Some folks need to wake up and smell the coffee, and understand that it's better to be careful what you wish for - because you might get it.

Background checks have never been proven to be a serious deterrent to determined criminals or insane madmen, and when 4473 forms are involved they provide a basis for future registration.

Claude Clay
February 12, 2013, 11:34 AM
wether you DID or DIDN'T know his past history for me is not the point.

rather that, as the system is today, it will cost me legal fees to put my point of view across to the judge. It becomes my time and money. Much as i dislike the paper trail enforced upon us i will want a clear trail for any gun i sell.
We do it with our cars also so it is not a one-off concept.
About 20 years ago a car i had sold was involved in a hit & run and the cops called me. Seems the new owner never registered it and i told the cops to stop by my house to see the bill of sale. They did and than they picked him up. Moter Vehicles had yet to process my SOLD information yet is why the cops called me 1st. Without my hand written bill-of-sale id of had a problem.

Sam Cade
February 12, 2013, 11:35 AM
Wrong, the prosecutor gets to prove that you DID know.

There is theory, then there is practice.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_diligence

huntsman
February 12, 2013, 12:41 PM
I'm proposing to simplify an existing process as well as making a voluntary access point for private sales while not requiring a busy, overworked and 50 mile away FFL.

The only problem is they don't want a simplified system, that's not the goal. No I hear Registration knocking and Confiscation hollering wait for me in the background that's the goal.

Old Fuff
February 12, 2013, 01:19 PM
Exactly! See post #13

There are no bills under consideration in Washington that would do anything but make private sellers and buyers do they're transfer through a FFL. :banghead:

Carl N. Brown
February 12, 2013, 01:35 PM
According to the NSPOF survey that gave the stat that 40% of gun acquisitions are not through a store with an FFL, that 40% breaks down like this:
13% Purchased a gun from a private individual: friend, acquaintance, family member or other,
19% Received it as a gift,
3% Traded something for it, and
5% Inherited it.
I might understand having purchases from strangers go through an FFL.
But gifts or inheritences from family or friends?

NSPOF noted that most people who owned guns had parents or family who owned guns before them. No better way to break the transmission of the disease of gun ownership than make it harder to receive a gun as a gift or inheritance from family or friends.

rdhood
February 12, 2013, 04:19 PM
If your local prosecutor is bored you now get to prove that you didn't know Bob was a prohibited person or pick up a felony charge.

Wrong. The prosecutor gets to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you DID know Bob was a prohibited person.

Sam Cade
February 12, 2013, 04:29 PM
Wrong. The prosecutor gets to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you DID know Bob was a prohibited person.

...and you don't let him argue that unopposed.
:scrutiny:

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