Live 20mm Vulcan Red tip


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tattoo6.0
February 13, 2013, 12:33 AM
I have a friend who while on a fishing trip found something bobbing around about 45 miles off the coast. This turned out to be an ammo can with live 20mm Vulcan red tip ammo in it. He is not a gun enthusiast and asked if i can find out about this ammo for him. I did some basic google searching and found some stuff but would like to know more. Also is it bad for him to have this stuff? Any info greatly appreciated.

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p2000sk
February 13, 2013, 12:39 AM
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-252634.html

This thread appears to be from 2007.

p2000sk
February 13, 2013, 12:40 AM
Also is it bad for him to have this stuff?

Well, it might be explosive.

General Geoff
February 13, 2013, 01:18 AM
Found some info from this thread (http://www.wk2ammo.com/showthread.php?3216-20x102-ammo-for-the-M61A1-Vulcan-20mm-Gatling-gun).


No.06- 20x102 M-DN 71 Multi purpose round (HEI-MP) with basefuze DM-201. The ballistic cap on the nose is filled with thermite (red), the dark mass above the explosive charge is a mixture of Zirkonium/Hafnium that increases the blast working of the explosive charge. The projectile is fuzed with the DM-201 base fuze. The projectile is manufactured by the German Diehl Company.
An interesting detail about this projectile is the delayed base fuze; the projectile will pierce a 5mm thick duralumin plate (Hardened aluninium for aircraft ) from 100mtrs. distance at a 82 degree angle (8 degree from horizontal) before exploding behind the plate.
A M505A3 fuzed projectile would explode without delay on impact.

That's my best guess...

limpingbear
February 13, 2013, 01:27 AM
It might not be a good idea to get caught with it......I could be wrong but I think those are classified as destructive device/ military only and can get someone in a lot of trouble...

Tag
February 13, 2013, 01:35 AM
sweet :D

tattoo6.0
February 13, 2013, 01:55 AM
i wonder if he were to donate them to enthusiasts. id hate to see these go to waste. The string of them weighs like 25lbs. Just need to find out the legalities of all of this first. They are very impressive in person thats for sure. Good info guys thanks.

General Geoff
February 13, 2013, 02:02 AM
If they contain one quarter of an ounce or more of explosive compound each, they would be considered Destructive Devices under the NFA.

tattoo6.0
February 13, 2013, 02:25 AM
7 grams seems like a lot of powder even in those. Wonder how i can find out?

General Geoff
February 13, 2013, 02:32 AM
The smokeless powder is propellant, not explosive. The projectile itself would contain some kind of explosive or incendiary compound.

splithoof
February 13, 2013, 02:56 AM
How about seven ATF agents trolling THR? This sounds too far overboard to me.

tattoo6.0
February 13, 2013, 03:05 AM
Sorry im not trying to piss anybody off. PS im the furthest thing from a troll or law enforcement agent that there can possibly be. Thank you all for the info it helped out.

Davek1977
February 13, 2013, 08:17 AM
How about seven ATF agents trolling THR? This sounds too far overboard to me.

A guy asking if somehting was legal or not is a troll inn your eyes? Its not as if he was trying to sell them....Heck, he's not even in POSSESSION of said items. Exactly what benefit to the BATFE would such a thread hold? Take off the tin foil....not every odd question is the basis for an ATF sting. Theres being prudent....and there's paranoia. I think this is a sample of the latter

tulsamal
February 13, 2013, 10:43 AM
The M61 and its derivatives have been the principal cannon armament of United States military fixed-wing aircraft for fifty years.

That's true enough but its deployment is far broader than that. I've fired one back when I was wearing BDU's that said US Army on the front. At the time, I was with 1/62 ADA, with the 25th ID on Schofield Barracks. We used to take a battery to Kaui every three months for live fire. When I got there in Jan 86, our Vulcans were mounted on M113's. Then the 25th went Light and we went to towed Vulcans.

It's a fun weapon to fire. Doesn't really sound like a "gun" at all. Sort of a ripping sound. And if you standing right behind it or watching through the sight, you can see the cloud of red fireflies heading away from you. Right after the ripping sound of the muzzle blast, you hear the loud metallic clanging of all that brass hitting the vehicle!

Ah, those were the days. Got to shoot the big guns and didn't even have to pay for the ammo!

Gregg

PedalBiker
February 13, 2013, 11:26 AM
Did you get to shoot any drones?

When I was at Fort Knox we saw some drones get smoked like clay targets. We were on a long road march exercise, so we didn't get to watch long, but it was impressive.

tulsamal
February 13, 2013, 04:14 PM
I was a 16H. Operations and Intelligence, ADA. So I worked in the S-2 and S-3. I got to go on the live fires as a support guy. Got to fly styrofoam airplanes for them to shoot down. Or help out with the grading and evaluation. I didn't get to shoot flying targets since it wasn't my job. But we often had extra ammo that had to be expended. They would have a chopper drop red barrels far out in the ocean and we would shoot at them as they pitched up and down in the waves. I was allowed to do that. A whole lot of fun. More fun that trying to pull an M2 around the sky tracking those styrofoam airplanes! They let me try that a couple of times and that plane was in no danger from me. Fun to shoot the M2, of course.

Gregg

oldbear
February 13, 2013, 06:42 PM
tattoo6.0, Sir the best thing you can do is contact your local P.D. or S.O. and have it safely removed. No need to court trouble when there is more than enough to go around as is.

Odd Job
February 13, 2013, 06:52 PM
I suggest posting photographs of the cartridges and their headstamps on the IAA forum. You will get the best advice there. See my signature for a link to that forum.

OptimusPrime
February 13, 2013, 07:16 PM
We all got to line up and shoot a handful of rounds out of the Vulcan, maybe 20 rounds each. Couldn't hit the drone at all, and it sounded like an ogre with a nasty buuuuuuurrrrpppppp. Snap of the fingers, they were gone. Cool weapon.

tattoo6.0
February 13, 2013, 08:12 PM
Thanks for all the info guys it's been really helpfull. I'll take pics and post on the other website so I can be clear what my friend has. I told him to give them back to some sort of law enforcement because the guy wearing tin foil probably alerted the secret service or some such thing. To the guys with good info thanks a ton, to the guy who basically called me a cop have a drink and mello out. If I'm not mistaken that is what forums like this are for... To ask questions.

WardenWolf
February 13, 2013, 08:34 PM
Yeah, that's some seriously bad stuff to have. Each round is technically a Destructive Device or AOW, as it's over .50 caliber and doesn't have a sporting exception. He's got to get rid of it ASAP. The problem is getting rid of it without getting arrested. My honest advice is to take it to a "No questions asked" buyback. Get rid of the stuff and get some money for his trouble.

rcmodel
February 13, 2013, 09:03 PM
Call the cops ASAP and tell them exactly where it came from, and ask them nice to come get it ASAP.

You don't want it in your house, and you don't want to get caught trying to peddle it off on somebody else!

Trust me!!!

rc

Ragnar Danneskjold
February 14, 2013, 10:21 AM
What a shame that we've gotten to the point where even calling the cops in good faith to turn something in is grounds to be arrested.

And a greater shame that we have to turn anything in in the first place.

Trent
February 14, 2013, 10:41 AM
Those fall under the destructive device code.

Unlike a dummy / inert display piece, live ammunition must be registered. Possession of unregistered centerfire ammunition greater than .50 is a Federal felony.

Turn it in.

LubeckTech
February 14, 2013, 10:59 AM
Does "troll" mean Ageant provocateur??

Trent
February 14, 2013, 11:02 AM
Would it really be any surprise if they try to get honest, hardworking men to hang themselves? If one person offered to buy a round for "display purposes" or whatever, they would have conspiracy charges ready to roll.

Careful guys, we're all targets now, whether we deserve it or not.

Sam Cade
February 14, 2013, 11:23 AM
Possession of unregistered centerfire ammunition greater than .50 is a Federal felony.

Negative.

The only thing that matters is whether or not the projectile has an explosive charge of larger than a certain weight.

Wanna buy some 40mm practice rounds?
http://www.urban-armory.com/cart/proddetail.php?prod=95
No explosive charge so non-DD.

From 26 USC 5845 - Definitions

any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes;


Bore diameter not projectile diameter.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/5845

FuzzyBunny
February 14, 2013, 11:48 AM
If it was in the ocean I would toss it back in and radio the coast guard they you found something. There is all kinds of stuff floating around. I think it was 2 years ago they found a sea mine from WWII wash up on some island after a storm.

I'll bet it fell off some carrier or warship of some kind and they can trace the number back to that ship. I may be wrong. I know I would not want to be anywhere around it.

Is that the same round the Warthog uses or is that a 30mm?

Trent
February 14, 2013, 11:49 AM
Interesting... did not know that.

Sam Cade
February 14, 2013, 12:03 PM
There are commercial 20mm Vulcan rifles. Neat.

http://www.anzioironworks.com/MAG-FED-20MM-RIFLE.htm


$10 a pop for blue tip.

Sam Cade
February 14, 2013, 12:11 PM
If the projectile is solid red and blunt tipped it is most likely MK 244 APDS

This round was developed and produced by General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems for the Mk15 Block 1B improved Phalanx system. The Mk 244 Mod O optimized tungsten alloy penetrator extends the effective range against high-speed anti-ship missile threats as well as a full spectrum of surface threats. The cartridge is an electric-primed 20-millimeter MK 244 APDS designed to function in the Phalanx Close-In Weapons Systems 20-mm M61A1 gun barrel. The 20mm cartridge consists of a projectile assembly, and a M103 cartridge case with a M52A3B1 electric primer. Principle components of the projectile assembly are a pusher plug, a sub-caliber projectile (commonly referred to as the penetrator), and integral discarding sabot-driving band.

http://www.gd-ots.com/images/images%20resized/20_mk244.jpg

AlaskaMan
February 14, 2013, 12:32 PM
Nobody else has mentioned it, so I'll bite...

Forty-two miles off the coast of the US, outside the territorial waters, importing ammunition into the US. Seems like a recipe for trouble.

Think I'd admire it then drop it right to the bottom of the very deep ocean and go back to fishing.

bomberbill357
February 14, 2013, 12:39 PM
Call your local PD, Tell them you found military ordnance. Since you know it's 20mm, tell them that. They'll contact the military and EOD will come pick it up. Don't bring it to your local police station as they might panic and force an evacuation.
I had a shooting buddy of mine who found a bunch of blasting caps in his garage and was worried that he'd get in trouble if he turned them in. No problem, the bomb squad came out, chatted him up a bit, took the caps and left. And this is in the People's republic of NJ. Most bomb squads/ EOD are more concerned with public safety then anything else.

Sam Cade
February 14, 2013, 01:00 PM
I'd find out exactly what I had before doing anything.


As long as the round doesn't have a HE component it is as safe as any other loaded cartridge,perfectly legal and worth a ton of money to a collector.

danweasel
February 14, 2013, 02:27 PM
Yeah the A-10 shoots 30mm.

When my sister was in the army she serviced the C-RAM which is Vulcan that shoots mortar rounds outta the sky. More or less just a Phalanx on a tractor trailer.

-Dan

Boostedtwo
February 14, 2013, 03:03 PM
Did you get to shoot any drones?

When I was at Fort Knox we saw some drones get smoked like clay targets. We were on a long road march exercise, so we didn't get to watch long, but it was impressive.

That's scary lol I'm near fort knox

taliv
February 14, 2013, 06:31 PM
i sure wouldn't give it to the cops, even at a "no questions asked" buy back. it would be different if the cops had a long history of actually not asking questions and appreciating concerned citizens trying to remove dangerous devices.

sadly, the recent headlines tell a different story, of people getting prison time for trying to turn in a machine gun they dug up in their yard, etc.

i'd just make sure my finger prints weren't on it, and put it back where i found it

Sam Cade
February 14, 2013, 06:40 PM
i
i'd just make sure my finger prints weren't on it, and put it back where i found it


Provided it isn't explosive it isn't any different than finding a box of .22lr floating in a tacklebox.


If it is explosive ammo then ditching it in the deepest nearby water IS a pretty good plan.


sadly, the recent headlines tell a different story, of people getting prison time for trying to turn in a machine gun they dug up in their yard, etc.

I'd like to know more.

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