308 win vs 30-06 for hunting


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ldlfh7
February 13, 2013, 12:15 PM
I am looking primarily for a deer rifle but I will use it for elk occasionally. I also will use it for hog hunting. I am curious if anyone has any experience elk hunting with a 308 using a 180gr bullet? Is this enough power to make a humane kill at 300-400 yards or should I get the 06?

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Kachok
February 13, 2013, 12:36 PM
I own both, they are both an overkill on any deer that ever walked IMHO. From a handloaders prospective I enjoy reloading the 30-06 more, it is just more versatile with powders and bullet weights and the standard pet loads have all worked really well too making load development a breeze, while I love my 308 it has been a little bit more of a challenge though it's good loads are easily as good as any in the 06 they took a couple more trips to the range to dial them in.
Looking at the ballistics the 06 is universally 80-150fps faster across the board this is handy when you need to reach out and touch something at 400 yards but if that little extra speed is worth the noticeable increase in recoil/muzzle blast is the subject of much debate. No doubt about it the 308 case is more efficient and you can feel the difference when you shoot.
If you hunt in any thick undergrowth a 22" barreled short action is noticeably more handy then a 24" barreled long action. The 06 is common on both barrel lengths but it does crave a 24" the 308 does not and is 1/2" shorter even in the same barrel length.
Since you add elk to the equation and 400 range 180gr pills are a good call, the 06 handles them a little better then 308 so that would have to be my pick. Sorry for being so long winded.

Bio-Chem
February 13, 2013, 12:39 PM
Yes, it's enough power to make a kill at that range. Assuming the shooter can make the shot. The 30-06 will give you a 100-150 or so fps advantage at the muzzle. That's up to you on how valuable the added velocity is. For me personally i prefer the 06 for Elk, but either will do the job. I doubt the elk will know the difference between the two.

moonzapa
February 13, 2013, 12:52 PM
I have both caliber of rifles, .308 Winchester and 30-06 Springfield. The 30-06 has a host of bullets for you to choose from and has better ballistics with bullets heavier than 150 grains.

If you are a one rifle hunter, my recommendation would be the 30-06, hands down. I have a load that I use for my 30-06 that prints .625" groups using IMR-4350, Federal 210M, and Hornady 168 A-Maxes.

My 30-06 is chambered in a Winchester Model 70 Extreme Weather topped with a 3.5X - 10X Zeiss scope. (I love my Weatherby .280 Mark V Ultra Light, too, for deer hunting.)

You will certainly not be undergunned for whitetail deer or mule deer hunting using the 30-06. You will have enough rifle to hunt Elk, too. What more could you ask for?

Good hunting!

RPRNY
February 13, 2013, 12:56 PM
Both are great. I would suggest 30-06 only because of the advantage with heavy for caliber bullets. Under 180 grs out to the 300 - 400 yards you reference: 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. They are like father and son and the acorn didn't fall far from the tree!

Kachok
February 13, 2013, 12:58 PM
It should be noted though that at full power the 06 can be simply too destructive on deer at close range, I have pictures of what mine does to whitetail that I am having fits trying to upload. Have a good 7"x10" chunk of shoulder/back/neck blow off that deer. I like venison alot so I don't deer hunt with the 06, I could if I would make a reduced load for it, but I have other rifles that fill that bill better anyway such as the 6.5x55 and 7mm-08.

Art Eatman
February 13, 2013, 01:04 PM
Dangit, Kachok, when ya gonna quit shootin' 'em in th' eatin' part? Huh? :D How many times I gotta told ya that God put the white spot on a deer's neck for an aimin' point?

Seems to me that with the usual rifle off the rack and with factory ammo, it's six of one, half-dozen of the other.

I'm an '06 guy after sixty-plus years of messing with them, but I wouldn't be down-hearted if a .308 was handy. :)

fdashes
February 13, 2013, 01:06 PM
Blew a 7"x10" chuck of deer right off the body? You grabbed a LAWS rocket launcher instead of you rifle.

ball3006
February 13, 2013, 01:07 PM
If you are just now looking for a deer rifle, thinking of hitting anything at 3-400 yards is a fantisy. It takes alot of practice to shoot at that range. Both calibers are ok for that range though if the shooter has that ability. I have been hunting for 50 years and I would not take a shot at that range. I have taken deer with both calibers and there is no difference between them when shooting a deer. Both calibers are just fine at any range no matter what other posters say. chris3

Kachok
February 13, 2013, 01:09 PM
That WAS a neck shot, it just went out high at the base of the neck/shoulder, damage was so bad we had to hang it by it's hind legs to skin it seeing as the skin was the only thing holding the head on. I keep telling my brother to leave the 06 at the house but he loves that gun.

returningfire
February 13, 2013, 01:10 PM
I have both as well, and when I reach into the safe I get the 30-06. Yep it may be overkill for, but you sure are not going to wound a deer and track it all night, if you can hit the broad side of a barn, with the 06 compared to smaller calibers, 243, 223, 25-06 22-250 etc etc.
I hate tracking a wounded animal, the deer I shoot with my 06 drop in their tracks. Elk are different, you can hit them and they will just stand there, but.....

Elk with 06, no problem, deer, bear, hog all no problem. Plus about any store with a gas pump in the boonies will probably have a box of 06 you can purchase, maybe not with the 308.

I like my 308 BLR, but I love my 06 BLR.

Kachok
February 13, 2013, 01:15 PM
Blew a 7"x10" chuck of deer right off the body? You grabbed a LAWS rocket launcher instead of you rifle.
No I think a LAW rocket launcher does less damage then a 165gr SGK at close range, I have seen a 50BMG with 750gr A-Max do less damage. Started using that load this year and have had the two largest exit wounds I have seen in my 20+ years of hunting, and all of them have been fist sized or better. My brother is under orders to neck shot only with that rifle the damage is unreal.

moonzapa
February 13, 2013, 01:17 PM
I want to clarify that if a hunter is going to include Elk hunting on his list of quarry, then the 30-06 is clearly in the lead with heavier bullets. Just read the Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading, 8th or 9th editions.

If you don't care and want to throw caution to the wind, and you want to take unnecessary chances, then by all means go to the .308. It will most likely kill a deer as well as a 30-06, and Elk, too. The deer will never notice the difference. For us informed hunters and shooters we will opt for the edge, this being the 30-06. Just my humble opinion.

adelbridge
February 13, 2013, 01:37 PM
I own both and I know from experience good quality .308 expand better than cheap .30-06
Inside of 250 yards there is very little difference. I have hunted for many years and I shoot probably 5+ big game animals per year. My longest shot ever has been 233 yards. I am competent at the bench way past 300 yards but it would take a special set of circumstances for me to justify a shot longer than 300 yards. If I ever planned on hunting at 400 yards I would not use either .308 or .30-06, they both have less than optimal B/C and retained energy.

Kachok
February 13, 2013, 01:43 PM
I am no elk hunter so I can only relay what my elk hunting friends have told me, the 308 with 180s is something of a 200-250yd elk cartridge, the 06 stretches that to 300-350yd if you want 400yd cartridge all my elk hunting friends recommend 7mm Rem Mags or 300 Win Mags.

moonzapa
February 13, 2013, 01:45 PM
Just a few commentss to say that 400 yard shots are not UNCOMMON in the Dakotas and Wyoming areas. It's hard to sneak up on a buck in the open prairie. "In these areas, the 7mm Magnum really shines". So if you can't shoot beyond 300 yards, then stay home and let the serious hunters do their thing. One last comment...thank goodness for range finders. They debunk claimed distances and allow one to shoot much better than the old days when you trusted your instincts alone. This aint the 60's we are living in and modern technology has improved long range shooting immensely. Just my humble opinion.

jmr40
February 13, 2013, 01:49 PM
Not enough to matter. A 308 shoots heavy bullets just fine and nothing over 165 grain is needed for elk anyway. They both shoot the same bullets with the 30-06 having a 100-150 fps speed advantage with equal bullet weights. At under 300 yards either is about equal.

The additional speed gives the 30-06 a bit of an advantage at longer range because it maintains energy a little longer.

A rough guideline says that 1500 ft. lbs of energy at impact is what you need for elk. I handload for both. A 180 gr Accubond from my 30-06 still has 1553 ft lbs at 500 yards. The same bullet from my 308 doesn't drop below the 1500 mark until around 450 yards.

Between the two chamberings I let the rifle decide. If I were buying a full size and weight rifle I see no reason not to get a 30-06. But you can buy a much lighter more compact rifle in 308. My 5 lb. Kimber is in 308, the full size rifle's are in 30-06.

ldlfh7
February 13, 2013, 01:50 PM
This is not my first exposure to shooting and I am not afraid of taking the long shots (after practice of course). I have shot several deer at long range. I just wanted some opinions on the versatility of the 2 different rifles.

I have seen that hornady makes a 220 gr sp for 308. What in the world would you need this for? Would this even perform out of a 308?

Kachok
February 13, 2013, 02:05 PM
Finally got it working, this is why I say the full powered 30-06 is excessive for whitetail.
If this were a unique case of striking heavy bone on exit that would be one thing, but every time this leaves a crater in it's wake on our smallish southern whitetail.
Caution Graphic.
Lengthwise that is the size of my size 9 1/2 boot, that should give you some scale. On the upside we have not needed to track anything this year but the freezers are still a little empty. LOL

savanahsdad
February 13, 2013, 02:29 PM
308 win
your your just splitting hairs with those to picks, up side to the /06 is only about 100fps where with the 308win the up side is lighter ammo in your pockeks , lighter gun on your shoulder when walking around, shorter gun for the brush, less felt recoil , less muzzle blast, and short actions tend to be stiffer (less flex)= more accurate , so lets see ..... that 6 too 1 for the 308win

the 400 yard shot hummmm......... leave both at home , unless it is sighted in for that , but then you just might shoot over a 150yard shot, my limit is 400 yards with my 7mmWSM or my 270win's , and 300 yards max with my 308win , 300 to 350 yards with my 7mm-08, 100 too 150 , with my 35rem's, 32rem and 75 to 100 with my 44 mag rifles's

if your set on a 30cal and set on a 400 yard shot you should look at a magnum cal , 300WSM , 300win Mag. 300H&H,

savanahsdad
February 13, 2013, 02:32 PM
Finally got it working, this is why I say the full powered 30-06 is excessive for whitetail.
If this were a unique case of striking heavy bone on exit that would be one thing, but every time this leaves a crater in it's wake on our smallish southern whitetail.
Caution Graphic.
Lengthwise that is the size of my size 9 1/2 boot, that should give you some scale. On the upside we have not needed to track anything this year but the freezers are still a little empty. LOL
Kackok: ya know the primer and power only go in the case! (right) and not in the bullet !

Bio-Chem
February 13, 2013, 02:32 PM
^^^craziest exit wound i've ever seen.
ok, so that was a 30-06 165grain Sierra Game King. I'm curious as to the range that shot was at roughly, and what is the estimated FPS of your load?

savanahsdad
February 13, 2013, 02:35 PM
This is not my first exposure to shooting and I am not afraid of taking the long shots (after practice of course). I have shot several deer at long range. I just wanted some opinions on the versatility of the 2 different rifles.

I have seen that hornady makes a 220 gr sp for 308. What in the world would you need this for? Would this even perform out of a 308?
yes, you will think you just shot a 30/06 but it works great in a 308, but yea why , me?, just for the fun of it, lol

Bio-Chem
February 13, 2013, 02:38 PM
Got to love opinions. haha. For Deer/ELK out to 400 yards both rounds will take these animals cleanly assuming proper bullet selection and shot placement. Truth is you can't make a bad decision here. You've narrowed it to what comes down to the two best all around rifle cartridges for the lower 48. Happy hunting.

H&Hhunter
February 13, 2013, 02:42 PM
Just my $.02 but,

There is no discernible difference between the two on any game animal in the field. They kill anything equally well. However I've noticed that while you can't find a single round of .308 anywhere in country due to the tactical weapon scare. .30-06 is plentiful everywhere. That right there is enough make me lean towards the good ole reliable .30-06. That way the next time we have a tactical weapon melt down you'll be able to feed your hunting rifle off the shelf at Wally World..

Just an observation.

Kachok
February 13, 2013, 02:43 PM
^^^craziest exit wound i've ever seen.
ok, so that was a 30-06 165grain Sierra Game King. I'm curious as to the range that shot was at roughly, and what is the estimated FPS of your load?
57gr IMR 4350 loaded to 3.290" with a CCI primer and Remington Brass aka the "Bryan Special" because my brother wanted something that leaves big exit wounds I load them just for him. Speed is supposed to be 2830fps but I have not tested in that rifle, range was only about 45yds. Absolutely the most devastating thing I have ever loaded, probably much better suited to mule deer or big bodied northern bucks but simply too much damage for a 120lbs southern whitetail IMHO, as is the 30-06 in general.
The only thing that makes that even remotely suitable for meat hunting is that the impact speeds are almost reasonable so we get very little gunshot meat around the actual hole, problem is the actual hole is the size of a bowing ball, Game Kings seem to go in about 3" before expanding violently so if you shoot them at the base of the neck the onside shoulder won't loose anything, with the offside shoulder you can write it off if it is in the path of this monster. As violently as these expand I am a little surprised I have not recovered one from an off angle shot yet, all have exited with an authority, still no sign of any core/jacket separation, these appear to be a little tougher then their internet reputation would imply.

sargents1
February 13, 2013, 04:56 PM
Finally got it working, this is why I say the full powered 30-06 is excessive for whitetail.
If this were a unique case of striking heavy bone on exit that would be one thing, but every time this leaves a crater in it's wake on our smallish southern whitetail.
Caution Graphic.
Lengthwise that is the size of my size 9 1/2 boot, that should give you some scale. On the upside we have not needed to track anything this year but the freezers are still a little empty. LOL
Great Googly-moogly! It looks like you shot that thing with a .50 BMG!

I shot a skipper (maybe 90lbs) a few years back with an '06 quartering at about 50yds and the exit wound was almost the size of a baseball. I thought that was pretty impressive...but that photo of yours takes the cake.

Abel
February 13, 2013, 05:40 PM
Looks like you're loading those Game Kings real hot. 2750-2800 is their sweet spot. Looks like you're at 2950 or so?

Kachok
February 13, 2013, 05:50 PM
Looks like you're loading those Game Kings real hot. 2750-2800 is their sweet spot. Looks like you're at 2950 or so?
With 57gr of 4350?!?!? No way! That is a 2800fps load in any manual I have seen. I CAN get them just north of 3,000fps with a compressed load of RL22 but as you can see I don't think that is needed, not even a little bit.
The fastest I ever push Game Kings is 3160ish fps in the 270 WSM and I only time that one comes out the case when I know I am going to be shooting 200yd+

H&Hhunter
February 13, 2013, 06:12 PM
kachok,

I've seen similar exit wounds with a .25-06 or a .270 heck even a .243 will blow them up like that if hit major bone on a small deer with an explosive bullet.

Art Eatman
February 13, 2013, 09:17 PM
Aw, you get that 165 HPBT cranked up, and yeah, it will make a mess. Any of the Sierra flat-based bullets are a bit tougher construction. They expand nicely, but don't come all apart.

The 165s work okay after they've slowed down a bit; good load for way-out-there deer.

The Federal Premium High Energy cartridges use that 165. 3,150 from a 26" '06 barrel. I made a 40-yard cross-body chest shot on a coyote, one time. Yuck. Instant three-pound weight loss.

303tom
February 13, 2013, 09:23 PM
Good luck finding .308, but the shelves are full of .30-06...............

Rem700CDLSF3006
February 13, 2013, 09:46 PM
had both I just feel the favor the 30-06

Andrew Leigh
February 13, 2013, 11:46 PM
It should be noted though that at full power the 06 can be simply too destructive on deer at close range, I have pictures of what mine does to whitetail that I am having fits trying to upload. Have a good 7"x10" chunk of shoulder/back/neck blow off that deer. I like venison alot so I don't deer hunt with the 06, I could if I would make a reduced load for it, but I have other rifles that fill that bill better anyway such as the 6.5x55 and 7mm-08.
I have the opposite experience with my 30-06. Kudu at 60yds taken behind the should and a .75" exit wound, same with Impala. I use 180gr. Accubonds and chase the bullets at 2615 fps.

The 6.5X55mm would be a real sweet choice though, especially if you reload.

H&Hhunter
February 14, 2013, 01:25 AM
Andrew,

Same here. I also use a quality 180 gr bullet at about 2650 in an 06. I get almost zero meat loss. Brusing is very minimal.

Kachok
February 14, 2013, 06:17 AM
I have the opposite experience with my 30-06. Kudu at 60yds taken behind the should and a .75" exit wound, same with Impala. I use 180gr. Accubonds and chase the bullets at 2615 fps.

The 6.5X55mm would be a real sweet choice though, especially if you reload.
Oh I do reload and the 6.5x55 is my baby, I use that one more then the rest of them put together. Minimal meat damage, flat shooting, deadly accurate, does not ring my ears to shoot, and the recoil is so light I get to watch them drop through the scope. If you could dream up a more perfect combination then that you let me know about it :D

kludge
February 14, 2013, 07:46 AM
For 400 yards on elk I would go a little bigger -- to the .338-06 or .35 Whelen. 300 yards?, yes the .30-06 is fine, and I would use a 200-220gr bullet.

Sav .250
February 14, 2013, 07:49 AM
This same question seems to come up every so often. To me there is no wrong answer. I`d go with the 30-06. Plus, you can get more different loads with it.

SlamFire1
February 14, 2013, 10:36 AM
I have been day dreaming about an Alaskan hunting trip and it may come down to a coin toss of whether I take a 308 or a 30-06.

The difference between them, out to 600 yards, not that much.

And I don’t plan shooting at anything past 300 yards.

The_Armed_Therapist
February 14, 2013, 12:27 PM
Any .308 factory load will take Elk fairly easily. However, for hunting, I greatly prefer the .30-06. It's MUCH more versatile, and there are a lot more hunting options available than .308, which is largely a military ball market. I'm pretty sure you can purchase .30-06 from 55 grains to 220 grains. Hard to beat! Also, .30-06 is everywhere, .308 is nowhere. While .308 was slightly cheaper (the hunting stuff was about the same, though) before the panic, I doubt it'll still be cheaper a year from now.

Art Eatman
February 14, 2013, 01:07 PM
A double-ought buck and five grains of pistol powder in an '06 makes a great squirrel load. :D

moonzapa
February 14, 2013, 01:28 PM
Very impressive photo...I remember hunting wild hogs in the Palo Dura Canyon, Texas, a few years ago. I was night hunting with a Weatherby Ultra Light in .280 Remington loaded with 154 Grain Hornady's. I shot a medium size pig, a quartering angle shot at an estimated 110 yards. When field dressing this pig the entire front end of the carcass was a mushy mess. I only got the back strap and the hams. The load I was using consisted of 51.7 grains of IMR-4831, Hornady 154 SP bullet, WLR primers, seated to the LANS. I didn't think this was a hot load but it sure messed that pig up. I never chronied this load but it should have clocked around 2750 fps or so. This load was taken from the Hornady Handbook. Go figure...

CB900F
February 14, 2013, 06:48 PM
Fella's;

I vote .30-06, no question. I live in Montana & just happen to hunt elk here also. When I encounter a deer at 45 yards, I just rise up & shout BOO!! at it. Usually scares 'em to death right there. Or neck shoot 'em.

I did take a buck antelope with it once upon a time. I have no idea how that happened though, the range was obviously beyond what the gun can do. Anyway, it was beyond what the Bushnell 800 rangefinder could find. Of course, that 800 yards is with a highly reflective surface, not hair. Later, when it was possible to laze the pickup from where the shot was taken, it said it was 470 yards. But you know how those ole rangefinders lie.

900F

HKGuns
February 14, 2013, 07:30 PM
Flip a coin.....literally.

My primary deer rifle is .308 and my backup is 30-06. My primary is my primary because it is synth & Stainless. My backup is blued. I'd not have trouble reversing their roles based on caliber. I have ZERO issues finding great hunting loads commercially available in .308 or 30-06.

this is why I say the full powered 30-06 is excessive for whitetail.

Huh? #1 That deer looks about as big as my black lab. #2 Why would you take that shot and put it where you did on a deer that size? I've shot deer and seen deer shot with both rounds and never saw damage like that at any time. I'd blame the shooter for that and not the ammunition. But you're right, if you're shootin' lab sized deer you might want to move down in caliber to something like .22 short! :)

303tom
February 14, 2013, 11:16 PM
Finally got it working, this is why I say the full powered 30-06 is excessive for whitetail.
If this were a unique case of striking heavy bone on exit that would be one thing, but every time this leaves a crater in it's wake on our smallish southern whitetail.
Caution Graphic.
Lengthwise that is the size of my size 9 1/2 boot, that should give you some scale. On the upside we have not needed to track anything this year but the freezers are still a little empty. LOL
What were you using, explosive tip rounds ?

Kachok
February 15, 2013, 12:21 AM
^ You would think so, no just regular ol Serrias, 100+ year old cup and core technology delivered with a hella strong punch on smallish Alabama whitetails at close range. That is why I like my sissy kickers they don't do anything like that. 264 cal or 7mm hole in, 2" hole out and about a 6" wide wound track in between, works like a charm, does not make for interesting pictures but it fills the freezer just fine.

Cryogaijin
February 15, 2013, 04:54 AM
Alaska In my 12 years in Alaska, I saw a lot more aught six hunting rifles than .308.

Aught six with a 220 gr rn is favored by quite a few people up there.

natman
February 15, 2013, 06:26 AM
It should be noted though that at full power the 06 can be simply too destructive on deer at close range, I have pictures of what mine does to whitetail that I am having fits trying to upload. Have a good 7"x10" chunk of shoulder/back/neck blow off that deer.

Could it be that you're using Ballistic Tips / match bullets or some other too fragile bullet?

GooseGestapo
February 15, 2013, 08:59 AM
As a retired game-warden, I can vouch that ANY .308 or .30/06 with a 165-180gr bullet can do such damage to deer. BTW a Hornady 180gr flat-base over 60gr of RL22 at 2,800fps is even WORSE than that !!! Ha! Ask me how I know!!!

I did the exact same thing to the second deer I shot in 1978 with a 165gr GameKing (before they were called that) Boat tail Hollow point. The hunting bullet not the match bullet.
Load was 56.5gr of IMR4350, Fed210 primer, and Norma case. Chrono'd with an old chrono that use the foil and paper screens was 2,775fps. I really liked (and still do) that load from '06's.

FWIW; my younger brother uses a pre-64 Win Mod-70 feather weight in .308.
His load of a 150gr Nosler Partition runs just over 2,900fps m/v from his 22" bbl. Two different chrono's two different occasions....

He's taken over 50 whitetails, a dozen muley's and about the same number of elk with it. He's tried 165's but prefers the "explosive" expansion of the 150's as they do less damage than the deeper penetrating 165's on the smaller animals...according to him
He's only recovered one bullet from an elk, a very large cow... And is was just under the hide.
You can't go wrong with either cartridge. (same caliber, by the way for you non-reloaders).

But, after 50yrs of using both, I still prefer the '06.... I "only" took two deer this year with the '06... a Colt Lt. Rifle w/24" bbl. One was with a 150gr Rem. Corlokt @2,850fps (50.0gr IMR4064) and the other a PrviPartisan 165gr PtSpt over 57.0gr RL17 for just under 3,000fps. It did the same thing as the photo of the 165GameKing results...... Only the bullet cost 1/2 as much. (but only 1/2 as accurate as the Sierra! 1.0moa vs. 0.5moa or better for the Sierra's).
With a similar bullet placement on the photo deer, the 150gr CorLokt bullet did far less damage and was recovered just under the hide, in the classic "deadliest mushroom in the woods"...

I suggest you drop down to a 150gr bullet for less damage.... and slow it down, too... In other words... Make a .308 out of the '06 for "mere deer"...

MCgunner
February 15, 2013, 10:01 AM
I like the .308 for two reasons. First, the handy little Remington M7 I own that came in the caliber. Also, .308 is one of those calibers that just seems inherently accurate, easy to load for. Nothing against the .30-06, has plenty of fanboys out there, but if I'm going to get a long action heavy gun, I'll get it in a belted magnum which costs the same. I have a 7 mag I never use much anymore, though, as I no longer have a lease in the trans-pecos and haven't hunted new Mexico's mountains in 20 years. The .308 is kinda overkill on the woods and brush deer I hunt, but it kills 'em pretty danged dead and it shoots 3/4 MOA. I have confidence in the gun, is about my favorite. It's also a great hog gitter. :D I've taken a coyote at 370 yards with it, my longest shot.

I shoot 150 Nosler BTs in my .308 at near 2800 fps and have no issues with either meat damage or penetration. Great bullet at this velocity IMHO. When I first got the gun, I worked up a load for the 140 Barnes X bullet, but decided after multiple deer and hogs, I really didn't need worry about the BTs. They work great and they're quite accurate.

chas08
February 15, 2013, 11:36 AM
Pot-A-to - Pot-O-to! I went with the 06 because it has been around for more than a hundred years and you can find ammo anywhere! The 06 sure does leave a grievous exit wound as Kachok says! Much worse than my 7mm Rem Mag. But Ive never seen one as bad as Kachok's picture!

My first 06 Deer! Taken a few days after Christmas with my new Remington 7600 Carbine! The bullet entered in the wrinkle behind the opposite shoulder, and did not hit any heavy bone!

For the matter of record: the bullet was a 150 gr. pointed soft point Winchester factory load! delivered at about 70 yards!

1858
February 15, 2013, 11:44 AM
There is no discernible difference between the two on any game animal in the field. They kill anything equally well. However I've noticed that while you can't find a single round of .308 anywhere in country due to the tactical weapon scare. .30-06 is plentiful everywhere. That right there is enough make me lean towards the good ole reliable .30-06. That way the next time we have a tactical weapon melt down you'll be able to feed your hunting rifle off the shelf at Wally World..

I hope the OP gave this post the attention that it deserves. A non reloader trying to choose between the .308 Win and .30-06 Srpg CARTRIDGES (same CALIBER) needs to consider the point raised by H&H since this is the only important consideration. This debate is moot for anyone who reloads.

It would seem that many here need to choose better bullets too ... weight and construction.

dodge
February 15, 2013, 11:45 AM
Kachok, This does not reflect the experience that I've had with the Sierra 165 gr Soft point Game King but does look like maybe it came from a Hollow point but then again I don't shot them in the neck either. I've been using the soft point for quite a few years and never had a exit wound like that and I've shot deer from 10 yards out to about 250 (+ or -) yards. My load will push this bullet at 2700 fps.

chas08
February 15, 2013, 12:53 PM
It would seem that many here need to choose better bullets too ... weight and construction.

It would seem to me that a Winchester 150 gr PSP Factory load would be Just the thing for whitetailed deer, but this is my first and only kill with this gun, as it is new! And the only 06 I've ever owned!

MCgunner
February 15, 2013, 01:23 PM
Meh, the ammo shortage has not affected my center fires. What really peeves me is not being able to get .22LR bulk pack for my daily shooting sessions with rimfire, rifle and handgun. I do handload, but I would not let a temporary shortage of ammo dictate my choice of rifles were I in the market. This will be over, next one when Hillary is elected might be .30-06 shortages. Who can predict THAT? :rolleyes: The BOB/EOTWAWKI loonies are unpredictable. Who the HELL woulda thunk they'd buy up all the .22LR on the market? Is it particularly effective on Zombies or something? :rolleyes: I can't reload .22LR, but I can reload and do for the .308 and ALL my centerfire weapons. I started handloading when I was ten years of age, 50 years ago. I don't know the last box of factory ammo I bought, think it was back in the early 80s after moving and having not set up my reloader, yet, needed a box or two to sight in for deer season, +P .257 Roberts Winchester 100 grain silver tip loads. That gun works MUCH better with handloads, though.

Anyway, never fear, supply WILL catch up with demand and I WILL find federal bulk pack on the Walmart ammo shelves again in the future. I prefer the little rifles the .308 is popular in and .308 does better in short barrels than does the .30-06. Mine is a 20" bbl stainless Remington M7 topped with a Weaver 2x10x40. I'm good with that in a box blind in the heavy woods behind my house, the slightly more open, but brushy as heck with tall grass and oak mots coastal plain where my other place is located, or the open country of the Guadalupe Mountains. Perfect for all situations, not that a long action 26" bull barrel gun weighing 3 lbs more wouldn't work, just sayin'..... :D

Kachok
February 15, 2013, 01:34 PM
Could it be that you're using Ballistic Tips / match bullets or some other too fragile bullet?
Nope quite certain Serria did not swap our my 165gr Game King BTSP with the 168gr Match King they do in fact look quite different and I have done this before :D
To Dodges point I think I have discovered the perfect storm of exit wound, a full powerd load with rapid expansion bullets hitting small deer at close range, just enough terminal travel to fully expand not nearly enough to slow it down. Slightly larger deer would no doubt absorb more of that energy and probably shrink those exit wounds quite a bit though meat damage could still be as bad if shoulder shot.
BTW I did not buy my 06 for deer hunting, we have rather large pigs on the river 30-06 power is not wasted them them, my brother just fell in love with that rifle, now I have to work up a reduced/slower/tougher meat hunting load since I cannot beat him off my 06.

shaggy430
February 15, 2013, 01:55 PM
30-06. I've killed boatloads of deer with an '06. I've never had an exit wound like Kachok. I've used Nosler Partitions, Accubonds, or good old Remington Core-Lokt. My Dad stopped using Game Kings in the '70's because they were too explosive.

Use a good controlled expansion bullet.

788Ham
February 16, 2013, 12:28 AM
Have him shoot them in the ribs, won't lose all of that good gnawin' meat! Man, thats a heck of an exit wound, I've shot P-dogs that didn't look that bad!

Andrew Leigh
February 16, 2013, 02:37 AM
If you still have not bought a rifle let me chime in with some other thoughts.

Recoil (from Chuck Hawks)
.308 with 180gr, @ 2610fps = 17.5 foot lbs recoil energy and 11.9 recoil velocity
30-06 with 180gr, @ 2610fps = 20.3 foor lbs recoil energy and and 12.8 recoil velocity

"I estimate that fifteen foot pounds of free recoil energy and 10 fps of recoil velocity represent the approximate upper limit of the comfort level. Above that recoil becomes increasingly intrusive. Also, the effects of recoil are cumulative. The longer you shoot, and the harder the rifle kicks, the more likely you are to flinch. These are good things to remember when comparing rifle cartridges, and at the range."

You will note that a decent load in the 30-06 presents about 16% more recoil energy.

Reloading (now this is personal reflection being a 30-06 hunter/reloader)
I bought the 06 for flexibility (one gun fits all) so I could reload up and down the scale, light and fast for plains animals, slow and heavy for the animals confined to heavy brush.

Well the truth is that for me it did not work out that way. I ended up with one load, 180gr Accubonds which results in almost no meat damage. I could not see anything in Africa, that I could afford to shoot, that could not be taken with a 30-06. I would qualify and say that I would load mono's for Eland.

It made no sense to me to have three different loads and therfore three different trajectories. The ability to actually place the shot where I want is of paramount importance, so understanding trajectory was just as important.

I also soon realised that I would prefer to have a different calibre to do a different job rather than a different load and bullet. For this reason I added the the 6.5X55mm Swede with a 140gr, @ 2650fps = 10.6 foor lbs recoil energy and and 8.7 recoil velocity. This can shoot over some distance accurately, will certainly sort out most the stuff I can afford to shoot and best of all wife and grandbuddies can use it with ease. The 6.5 punches well above it's weight if you buy a modern rifle and reload yourself.

When shooting from behind a bench developing loads, the 30-06 can be harsh and if you are not recoil tolerant then it can rapidly lead to a flinch. The 30-06 is deemed to be at the max of most shooter recoil tolerance.

I think the key is if you reload and how recoil tolerant you are. Reloading removes dependency on ammo supply while reloading allows you to explore the upper reaches of any calibre.

Don't allow the "man testosterone thing" to get you. Largest calibre, fastest load, I can handle any rifle type thinking. I see it all the time where people seem to want the extreme. Smaller calibres can bring home plenty fresh meat. I prefer to rely on shot placement than raw power to do the job for me. It is seldom that one will be shooting out to 400yds so to buy a rifle to cater for say 95% of your shots rather than the 5%.
Tell us how it goes.

GooseGestapo
February 16, 2013, 07:37 AM
Remember, in damage like the op's photo....
It isn't the bullet thats directly responsible for all that damage.

It's the secondary "missles" or projectiles caused by bullet impact to bone. The bone becomes secondary projectiles and "cut" out tissue as it's ejected the way you see.

Sierra's expand with a wide mushroom. The 165 has high kinetic energy and when applied to bone, the resulting wound is created...

Ergo, a cast bullet with similar energy or a monolithic like a Barnes bullet will expand with a narrower mushroom and cause fewer/smaller secondary projectiles with a much narrower permanant wound channel.
In my experience, the 7mmRemMag is the WORST at this. But the .300WinMag and such with 150-165gr bullets routinely do this...
Again, just my experience from seeing dozens to hundreds of whitetail deer a day, shot with centerfires from .22Hornet to .458winmag, not to mention 20ga to 10ga shotguns and .40-.72cal muzzle loaders over 20+years... (not to mention those "poached" with a .22rf).
To avoid any meat loss, shoot them in the head with a .22-250, .243, or such. An '06 to the body has the potential to cause meat loss.... no getting around it. But, you WILL recover your deer with a solid hit.... Hence it's still popular after 100yrs....

MCgunner
February 16, 2013, 09:15 AM
Recoil (from Chuck Hawks)
.308 with 180gr, @ 2610fps = 17.5 foot lbs recoil energy and 11.9 recoil velocity
30-06 with 180gr, @ 2610fps = 20.3 foor lbs recoil energy and and 12.8 recoil velocity

"I estimate that fifteen foot pounds of free recoil energy and 10 fps of recoil velocity represent the approximate upper limit of the comfort level. Above that recoil becomes increasingly intrusive. Also, the effects of recoil are cumulative. The longer you shoot, and the harder the rifle kicks, the more likely you are to flinch. These are good things to remember when comparing rifle cartridges, and at the range."

You will note that a decent load in the 30-06 presents about 16% more recoil energy.

Recoil is subjective. I shoot a lot of heavy kicking guns. Try 21 rounds in one morning of goose hunting shooting a 10 gauge 3.5" magnum with T shot. That'll make you stiff the next day. :D What I can tolerate, you might not. Also, it's dependent on the weight of the gun. I love my little M7, 7 lbs with scope. My SIL has a .308 with a 26" fluted bull barrel that has to be 2.5 - 3 lbs heavier, like shooting a .22 by comparison. What makes the .308 desirable to me is the gun it's chambered in, not so much the raw ballistics. It'll kill deer or hogs just as dead as my 7 mag, why want more? The GUN, however, is short and handy in a box blind, doesn't bang on things as I move it into position, it's quick to the shoulder when still hunting, it's light to carry all day in rough country, but ready for that 300 yard + shot if needed with 3/4 MOA accuracy. I carried that 7 mag all over the Guadalupe mountains in my younger days. It gets old fast. I haven't been back out there in a while. I'm not sure I could carry myself, let alone the gun, too, at my age. LOL!


Reloading (now this is personal reflection being a 30-06 hunter/reloader)
I bought the 06 for flexibility (one gun fits all) so I could reload up and down the scale, light and fast for plains animals, slow and heavy for the animals confined to heavy brush.

I bought a 7 mag when I was lookin' at 280s. I figured if I didn't like it in max power form, I could load it down to match the 280. Like you, I stuck with...well, 2 loads, a 160 partition for heavy stuff and a 150 Sierra Game King for lighter. Recoil was a non-issue with me and the max power of the 7 makes it effective way out there with bullets of good BC. I have my .308 and my .257 Roberts and the big 7 sits in the safe. :D But, if I ever get to go Nilgai or Elk hunting...... :D

Cranky CJ
February 16, 2013, 09:55 AM
If felt recoil isn't a factor, pick the -06. The .308 offers nothing ballistic wise over an -06. On the other hand, if you really want to make 400 yard shots on elk, and felt recoil still isn't a factor, go for a 7mm Mag, 300WSM, 300mag, 270WSM or 7mmWSM.

The drop at 400 yds for both the -06 and .308 isn't something you'd want to mess with. Of course this is all just my opinion.

Kachok
February 16, 2013, 12:17 PM
Remember, in damage like the op's photo....
It isn't the bullet thats directly responsible for all that damage.

It's the secondary "missles" or projectiles caused by bullet impact to bone. The bone becomes secondary projectiles and "cut" out tissue as it's ejected the way you see.

Sierra's expand with a wide mushroom. The 165 has high kinetic energy and when applied to bone, the resulting wound is created...

Ergo, a cast bullet with similar energy or a monolithic like a Barnes bullet will expand with a narrower mushroom and cause fewer/smaller secondary projectiles with a much narrower permanant wound channel.
In my experience, the 7mmRemMag is the WORST at this. But the .300WinMag and such with 150-165gr bullets routinely do this...
Again, just my experience from seeing dozens to hundreds of whitetail deer a day, shot with centerfires from .22Hornet to .458winmag, not to mention 20ga to 10ga shotguns and .40-.72cal muzzle loaders over 20+years... (not to mention those "poached" with a .22rf).
To avoid any meat loss, shoot them in the head with a .22-250, .243, or such. An '06 to the body has the potential to cause meat loss.... no getting around it. But, you WILL recover your deer with a solid hit.... Hence it's still popular after 100yrs....
The Barnes actually has one of the widest expanded diameter (for the caliber of course) of any bullet, seen several textbook 2.5x original diameter, but they create no fragmentation so you don't get the shotgun pattern of jacket/lead in the far side rib case like you do with some quicker expanding lead core bullet, that partial fragmentation is a highly effective tool for making wide wounds with small calibers, but in the case of a 30-06 it is simply excessive, even when no bone is struck that SGK load leaves fist sized or larger holes.
My bro had finally agreed that we need to step down the 06 if we are going to keep using it for meat hunting, going to try out 150gr Speer BTSP and Barnes TTSX, the rather soft Speer should dump a bit more of it's energy in the vitals not not out the far side shoulder, and the TTSX should make for a cleaner cutting wound canal and expend the rest of that 30-06 energy in the ground, too very different approaches to cut down on coyote meat.

Southernsorrow
February 16, 2013, 01:00 PM
for deer you'd probably do better with .270.... 30-06 leaves a mess it's about as readily findable as the others ".308 is currently sold out evvverywhere I look" but you can find a box of high dollar hunting rounds in .270 and 30-06 here n there

Southernsorrow
February 16, 2013, 01:02 PM
30-06 was originally made for taking down humans I think? the .45 handgun rounds since the wild west days and 30 cal bullets been heavily killing since world war 2

savanahsdad
February 17, 2013, 04:06 AM
I've lost count of how many times I've heard "the 30/06 has been around for over 100 years !" .. well with that kind of thinking a guy should go find a car with a crank sticking out the front of it and never worry about another starter, , or if your just looking for an old cartridge try a 45-70, been around a whole lot longer and has killed everything in North America, with the 308 and the 30/06 being so close , one could just flip a coin, that is as far as the round go's ,but as far as the guns go... 308= lighter, shorter,.......

oh and up here in the north woods ,we have lots of 308 sitting on the shelf, at Fleet Farm, Walmart, Dunman's and 2 of the 3 gun shops (not sure about the 3rd, I wouldn't call them to tell them there shop was on fire):)

Kachok
February 17, 2013, 07:56 AM
You know if we went down the long list of ideals by modern standards the 30-06 has some glaring flaws, too long, too shallow a shoulder, too much gun until it is not enough, not as efficient as the 308.....etc. Alas it is one of my favorites despite it's imperfections, VERY easy to work up loads for, shoots flat enough, and sure hits hard enough, oh and I never ever ever have to buy brass, I have so many people give me 06 brass I could shoot three barrels out of that rifle and still be going strong. My 06 likes heavier bullets more, my 308 likes lighter bullets more, I like heavier bullets more so I tend to prefer the 06, but for deer hunting I would be just as happy with my 150gr in my 308 it is also very accurate.

JShirley
February 17, 2013, 08:19 AM
Bullet construction.

chas08
February 17, 2013, 10:25 AM
I've lost count of how many times I've heard "the 30/06 has been around for over 100 years !" .. well with that kind of thinking a guy should go find a car with a crank sticking out the front of it and never worry about another starter, , or if your just looking for an old cartridge try a 45-70,
LOL! I got one of those too! 45/70 that is, hard to kill a Deer with a car crank!...lol.
Remember: "If it ain't broke don't fix it"

CB900F
February 17, 2013, 10:35 AM
Fella's;

And there we have it. Bullet construction means at least as much as whatever cartridge flings it out the barrel. And, if the ought-6 & the 308 are loaded to the same velocity, then the only meaningful variable would be bullet construction.

And, while I'm at it, lets take up the previous comment concerning the ought-6 and cars that are hand-cranked to start. The reason the ought-6 has been around, in widespread use I might add, for over a hundred years is that it works so well. As soon as Mr. Kettering introduced the electric starter to the automotive industry, the hand crank was shown the door. Much like the .32 Ideal.

900F

CraigC
February 17, 2013, 10:51 AM
Up to and including 180gr, the .30-06 holds no advantage over the .308, unless you like more recoil and a heavier rifle. Over 180gr and you probably need something bigger than the `06 anyway. IMHO, some folks can't look past the popularity contest.

Kachok
February 17, 2013, 11:14 AM
Craig I handload both 308 and 30-06, I can push 100fps higher speeds in the 06 in heavier weights. Now with a 150gr you would in fact be hard pressed to find a difference.

TexAg
February 17, 2013, 11:42 AM
To reiterate an above point: my local Wal-Mart (west of Ft. Worth) had three boxes of .30-06, one box of .243, one of .300 Win Mag, and one box of .270 yesterday. Made me glad to have an '06 in the safe. Nice to know for whatever reason ammo is still available for it.

savanahsdad
February 17, 2013, 01:49 PM
LOL! I got one of those too! 45/70 that is, hard to kill a Deer with a car crank!...lol.
Remember: "If it ain't broke don't fix it"
[hard too kill a deer with a car crank ????? ] not if you are driving IT !!!! lol....

Inebriated
February 17, 2013, 02:08 PM
I prefer .30-06 myself. Can push the same weight bullets just a little faster, you have the option for the heavier 220gr bullets, and to be honest, I've never really had too soft a spot for .308 anyway.

They tend to perform about the same on most game. For larger game, obviously .30-06's heavier loads are preferable. But not as preferable as going with a magnum cartridge. So... I guess what I'm getting at is 6 of one, half-a-dozen of the other. The real differences aren't really that great.

CraigC
February 17, 2013, 02:44 PM
I can push 100fps higher speeds in the 06 in heavier weights.
Which serves what purpose, other than burning more powder and producing more recoil?

Pointshoot
February 17, 2013, 03:51 PM
CB900F said:

"Fella's;

I vote .30-06, no question. I live in Montana & just happen to hunt elk here also. When I encounter a deer at 45 yards, I just rise up & shout BOO!! at it. Usually scares 'em to death right there. Or neck shoot 'em. . . .


900F"


Gotta agree with 900f when it comes to deer. I don't even bother to load the rifle when going after those puny things. I just club them with the empty rifle (old milsurp rifles are great - very tough, heavy, & cheap to replace. Perfect as clubs.) Even more challenging than bowhunting.

Either 308 or -06 will do fine on deer. If you dont reload, in our part of the country 30-06 ammo still is plentiful on the shelves. Less so for all kinds of 308. They only seem to have the stuff that must be gold plated for what they charge for it. That might make a difference for some people.

Kachok
February 17, 2013, 06:32 PM
Which serves what purpose, other than burning more powder and producing more recoil?
Why would I want my 180s at 2800fps rather then 2700fps? Mabey I want a little flatter shooting highly versatile 180gr load that expands better at range and drifts less, sure it is no 2950fps 300 Win Mag but it kicks alot less too, bottom line is it is still a great compromise, not ideal for anything but really good at everything. I could make a good case for the 308 too, but I can make a GREAT case for owning both :D

1858
February 17, 2013, 06:55 PM
but I can make a GREAT case for owning both

As someone who owns five rifles chambered for .308 Win I've never been that interested in a .30-06. I figured that .300 WSM and/or .300 Win Mag makes the .30-06 redundant so I went that route along with .338 LM, .375 H&H and .458 Lott to fill out the top end.

jmr40
February 17, 2013, 07:15 PM
As someone who owns five rifles chambered for .308 Win I've never been that interested in a .30-06. I figured that .300 WSM and/or .300 Win Mag makes the .30-06 redundant

That is a very accurate statement. The problem is that I started with a 30-06 and got into the 308 late in my shooting/hunting career. Truth is there is nothing I'd hunt with one and not the other. But I already have several 30-06 rifles that have too much sentimental significance to part with.

With my 308 handloads I can duplicate 30-06 factory perfrormance, and do it with better accuracy, less recoil and with a lighter trimmer rifle. I've really come to appreciate the 308 round.

As well as the new 300 WSM. I think it is a great round. It gives me 98% of the 300 Win mags velocity from a 308 sized rifle with recoil comparble to hot 30-06 loads.

I ain't selling my 30-06 rifles, but if starting over today probably wouldn't buy one.

savanahsdad
February 17, 2013, 09:09 PM
Hey .. jmr40: put a muzzle brake on that 300WSM and you will forget it's not your 308, I put a brake on my 7mmWSM and it feels like my 270's,

CB900F
February 17, 2013, 10:58 PM
Fella's;

"not if you are driving IT !!!! lol.... " Around here, we refer to that as takin' the deer with yer 30/40 Jimmy.

900F

Kachok
February 18, 2013, 07:40 PM
I don't think owning a 308/30-06/300 magnum would be redundant, in fact I plan on doing just that eventually. 308 for hunting in the woods, let's face it you don't need more then 2800fps inside 200yds ever. 30-06 for hunting larger food plots or slightly more open country the heavier higher BC bullets come into play here without being too drastically overpowered for 80yd shots should they walk out on you up close. And the 300 for throwing heavy lead across a large peanut field. Besides you can never own too many good rifles IMHO. I am not a diehard 30 caliber guy but I do like them alot, and despite the fact that my favorite rifle is a sissy kicker I can comfortably handle quite a bit of recoil. Could you get by with the 308 and 300 skipping the 06....sure but it makes for a dandy rifle so why if you have the $$$ and to be quite honest I have never taken a deer that I could not have taken with my 308, so you could say anything else is "redundant"

MCgunner
February 19, 2013, 10:24 AM
To reiterate an above point: my local Wal-Mart (west of Ft. Worth) had three boxes of .30-06, one box of .243, one of .300 Win Mag, and one box of .270 yesterday. Made me glad to have an '06 in the safe. Nice to know for whatever reason ammo is still available for it.

Non-issue for me. I've never bought, nor have I ever fired a factory load in my .308. And, when times get better (if Hillary ain't elected), that very popular .308 will be back on the shelves.

MCgunner
February 19, 2013, 10:36 AM
LOL! I got one of those too! 45/70 that is, hard to kill a Deer with a car crank!...lol.
Remember: "If it ain't broke don't fix it"

Cars can kill deer, so long as they can run 55 mph and have a horn and headlights.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdApyFlf6DU

Kachok
February 19, 2013, 12:31 PM
Great thing about both 30-06 and 308 there are a WHOLE BUNCH of people who don't reload for them, I get all the 06 and 308 brass I could ever use for free. Get plenty of 270, 7mm Rem Mag and 243 too just not as much as 308 and 06.

1858
February 19, 2013, 01:55 PM
I don't think owning a 308/30-06/300 magnum would be redundant, in fact I plan on doing just that eventually.

If you feel that there's enough of a distinction between the three then why not. We all like rifles and surely wouldn't begrudge someone for adding to their collection. Personally I don't think there's enough daylight between the three cartridges so would rather add rifles either side of .308 Win and .300 Win Mag. I have a .375 H&H and am looking at the possibility of adding a .257 Roberts. If I had to pick one rifle/cartridge combination for all around hunting it would be a Kimber Montana in .308 Win ... done!!

MCgunner
February 19, 2013, 01:59 PM
Great thing about both 30-06 and 308 there are a WHOLE BUNCH of people who don't reload for them, I get all the 06 and 308 brass I could ever use for free. Get plenty of 270, 7mm Rem Mag and 243 too just not as much as 308 and 06.

Got a couple hundred rounds of .308 milsurp when i first got the gun and dies. I don't know if I'll ever wear that stuff out, thick as it is. :D Haven't seen milsurp brass around for some time, wonder if the commander in chief ordered it melted down so civilians couldn't get it or something? :rolleyes:

Kachok
February 19, 2013, 02:50 PM
I get alot of 7.62x51 from individuals, yeah it is thick and will probably outlast me. I am a brass hoarder, I have a bunch sorted/cleaned stashed away in garbage bags and Folgers jugs. I will probably never wear them all out, guess I keep stashing them away in case a friend ever gets into reloading or something, know a bunch of people who shoot but I don't have a single friend in real life who reloads, had to teach myself.
BTW 1858 I consider anything 100fps or over difference with the same bullets to be a noticeable difference, besides the 06 and 308 have very different personalities, not sure if that is all of them but mine do, 308 likes stubby little 150s at modest (2700ish fps) speeds, which works out great for a woods rifle, and my 06 likes them a little longer, heavier and even poly tipped boat tails at considerably higher speeds (165s at 2832 and 2900fps), very very different shooting rifles

1858
February 19, 2013, 05:15 PM
I consider anything 100fps or over difference with the same bullets to be a noticeable difference

There probably isn't a whole lot I couldn't do with a .308 Win and a 150gr TTSX at 2,820fps or a 168gr TTSX at 2,680fps .... more than enough for most critters out past 500 yards. If I need the extra range and energy I could step up to the .300 WSM and a 165gr TTSX at 3,130fps ... about the same energy at 500 yards as the .308 Win at 300 yards. That's my idea of a "noticeable difference".

Bio-Chem
February 19, 2013, 05:32 PM
I'm not sure an animal in the lower 48 would know the difference between a .308 or 30-06 at any range. but it may provide the shooter with just a bit more confidence to make the shot. That could be both good or bad depending on the skill of the shooter.

Dr T
February 19, 2013, 05:58 PM
Having both, I am in the 6 of one/half dozen of the other group.

My pet load for the 06 is a 180 gr. Hornady FBSP chronographed at 2650 fps out of a 20 inch barrel in a Ruger #1 RSI. It is a reliable, accurate bullet (and not particularly expensive). It is not particularly destructive of meat. However, you do need to hit the deer in the right spot.

I tend to like 165 gr bullets for the 308. My 308's with the 165s tend to kick less than my 30-06 with the 180s.

HKGuns
February 19, 2013, 07:21 PM
I hope the OP gave this post the attention that it deserves. A non reloader trying to choose between the .308 Win and .30-06 Srpg CARTRIDGES (same CALIBER) needs to consider the point raised by H&H since this is the only important consideration. This debate is moot for anyone who reloads.

I don't know if the OP did but I certainly did and he's right on that point and am glad I own both! + As a re-loader that only helps if you have primer and powder!

Geno
February 20, 2013, 06:18 PM
John nailed the single most notable factor, that being, bullet construction.

The deer that I shot this year with Hornady's SuperFormance SST ammunition dropped literally without a step, that from a .308 Win with 150 grain SST, and from a .270 Win with a 130 grain SST. Both deer were shot at just over 200 yards. There was no exit wound on either. In both cases, not only was a follow-up shot not needed, they dropped so fast it wasn't possible. Autopsy of both deer revealed about a 0.5" entrance wound, and minimal meat damage. On both deer, the near-side lung and the heart were literally "liquified". I mean, liquid! There may have been 1, 1" chunk. I mean, liquid. The far side-lung was 100% in-tact, on both deer.

Both of these deer dropped faster than any other game animal that I have shot at similar distances (deer, hog, ram) shot by any of my other firearms cartridges, including 6mm Rem, .257 Wea Mag, .300 Win Mag, .300 Wea Mag, even the .375 H&H, .444 Marlin and .45-70 Gov't. For my purposes, the .308 and the .30-06 are now officially co-equals, thanks to Hornady's SST and GMX offerings. Select the proper projectile, and you're good with either. Use an SST for an immediate "one-'shock'-kill", use a GMX for complete penetration regardless of angle or distance to the target (within reason).

The only other considerations that I might take into account regarding the two, already has been mentioned as being short-action versus long-action, and a 22" barrel versus a 24" barrel. Here too, Hornady's SuperFormance powder has made the barrel length a very nearly mute point. A 130 grain .270 Win SST fired through a 22" barrel has no significant loss of velocity over the same fired through a 24" barrel. Hornady truly has pulled-off a cartridge coup d'état.

I too will echo the fact that I cannot locate .308 Win any where locally. It is dry. Then, I saw this event coming about 3 to 4 years back, and did my due diligence, and made sacrifices in other purchases to afford to stock-up on factory loaded .308 Win, and all other cartridges I own, as well as all of the needed reloading components for each.

Don't get me wrong about the .30-06 Sprg. I wax-romantic for that dear old cartridge, and always will. A few years back I purchased a NIB Model 70 Super Grade. The first was defective. Its replacement was destroyed by a gunsmith about 6 months later. I finally had no option other than a Super Grade on the shelf in .270 Win. I wax pretty romantic for that too what with her having been my first true-love, but she just isn't the .30-06 Sprg. For the pure romance of that ol' .30-06 Srng being cartridge carried into WWI and WWII battles, I would opt for that cartridge. To me, the .30-06 is both Prom Queen and Tom Boy. She'll never disappoint...ever. Is a .30-06 necessary? I can't say it is.

Going back to short-actions and long action, 22" and 24" barrels, Winchester has your back with the "Extreme Weather". I also lust over the Model 70 Coyote Light. But, that doesn't mean I'll break-up anytime soon with my two favorite "girlfriends", my Model 70 Stealth .308, and my Super Grade .270. Choose your poison. Oh, and yes, cartridges that are readily available here today, included the .243, .25-06, .270, the .30-06, 7mm Mag and .300 Mag. Dang .308 is dried-up. Got me a whole military can full-up of Hornady SuperFormance .308 WIn 150 SSTs, and a whole military can, full-up of Hornady SuperFormance, .270 Win, 130 grain SSTs. Can't let my dates go hungry. 8^) Think about it, they can't "reciprocate" if they don't get fed.

Alas, I drift. Happy and safe shooting. By the way, this is one of the best threads that I have ever read at THR! Great thoughts and input fellas! No fan-boyisms, just good reflection and self-controlled discussion. Dang, I have missed THR these past 9 months away.

Geno

Kachok
February 20, 2013, 06:48 PM
Tried those SSTs both as handloads and factory superformance in my 7mm-08, neither would group, but in my 30-06 the 150s were touching holes with a max compressed charge of RL19 pushing superformance speeds, and my Tikka LOVES SSTs, 129 and 140s shoot like a dream. Have not tried them in the 308 yet, guess it is time to break out the press and powders.
BTW good to have you back Geno :)

Geno
February 20, 2013, 07:08 PM
Kachok:

Thanks, feels like being back home. 8^)

For what it's worth, I upgraded my Weatherby Mark V .300 Win Mag to a Bell & Carlson Medalist stock. Then, I tried it out with the 150 SSTs. It groups right around 0.75" at 100 yards, and recoil is quite tolerable. Then I tried the 165 grain GMXs. All three shots were barely (loosely) touching at 100 yards. I was stunned by the accuracy for factory loads with the GMXs! But, the recoil factor is way high. Every time I pulled the trigger, I felt like I was at revival, and the preacher was smacking me in the head, commanding that I be healed of my desire to feel recoil. 8^)

Given the performance, and seeing the ammo shortage coming, I bought up a military can full of the 150 grain SSTs and 165 grain GMXs. They weren't cheap, but if what I am hunting would require a .300 Win, might as well feed it the GMXs. Now, I need to get a muzzle break on the beast.

Geno

crabwearer
February 20, 2013, 07:09 PM
I used my 06 to take an elk last year with 180gr Remmy Core-Lokt. It was a good sized bull (6x6, 372lbs hanging weight) and took two shots to put down. Had I been using my 308 I'm not sure it would have gone down as quickly. My preference for elk would be a 300 Win Mag. I used mine on a mule deer (overkill I know, but I also had an elk tag to fill) and I'm fully confident it will work great on elk. But, since you only mentioned 308 or 06, I would go for the 06.

You could also shoot heavy bullets for elk, 180-220gr, mid weight for deer, 125-150gr, and as light as you want to go for hog. I've never hog hunted but I imagine around 125 would get it done.

splattergun
February 20, 2013, 07:13 PM
.308 throwing a .308 dia 180 gr. pill or a 30-06 throwing a .308 dia 180 gr. pill... hmmm. I vote 30-06 because I own one. I don't think the elk much cares.

Ridgerunner665
February 20, 2013, 07:19 PM
My 30-06...

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc137/Ridgerunner665/2012-11-16_14-47-36_692.jpg

BY FAR...the best rifle I've ever owned...that said, it could just as easily have been (and almost was) a 308.

I'd get the 06, less likely to get caught up in an ammo scarcity.

Kachok
February 20, 2013, 10:32 PM
Is that your Model 70? Like that stock :)
308 and 30-06 are both great, but for what it is worth the two most experienced old deer hunters I have ever known use Model 700s in 270 Win and 280 Rem, they both own numerous other rifles including 30-06s.

Ridgerunner665
February 21, 2013, 12:16 AM
Yep...that's the 70....all finished and she's done put some meat in the freezer.

Geno
February 24, 2013, 05:12 PM
Ridgerunner665:

What make and model stock is that?

Geno

Ridgerunner665
February 24, 2013, 08:39 PM
Ridgerunner665:

What make and model stock is that?

Geno

McMillan....Winchester Supergrade model....33% olive, 33% black, 33% medium tan.


I love the stock...but if I had it to do over, I'd use dark tan instead of medium.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

hueyville
February 25, 2013, 01:11 AM
So my choice is either a 30-06 or a 308 for deer to elk size animals? Hmmm, I have multiples of both and each has its own personality. My problem is that like kachook said, shooting deer with an '06 can be a bit extreme. But if you pull your shot a bit at range with a 308 on an elk you have the opposite problem. So if I can only choose one caliber, I have to drop back to my favorite all around of all time 25-06. You keep your '06 case size but have better choice in loads to shoot anything from groundhogs to elk. You can choose the right bullet combo even in factory ammo for varmints, deer without turning them into hamburger and elk out as far as most people can hit them in the sweet spot. So I answered half the question but best I could do with my experience. If I could only own one turn bolt out of all I have, the 25-06 is the best all around I have ever fired outside of wildcats. Sorry I no answer question fully. Next best answer is to buy a 308 and a 300 WSM both and skip the '06. That would give you a wider range of potential.

Kachok
February 25, 2013, 11:17 AM
While there can be no such thing as a "Perfect" deer cartridge the 25-06 is right in the sweet spot. Here is my A-list criteria for the all around deer rifle.
minimum 100gr projectile
minimum 243 caliber
Must maintain 2000fps and 1000ft/lbs out to 500 yards
No more then 15lbs of free recoil in sporter weight rifles.
You would think that there would be alot of cartridges that meet those criteria but most fall short in one area or another. Here are my sweet spot contenders.
25-06/25WSSM slinging 115gr BT at speed in excess of 3000fps is running with the best of them. some of the blistering fast 100 grainers can pass too.
6.5x55/260/6.5Creedmore 120gr BTs also running well north of 3k, and these cartridges can also pass all criteria with 130 and 140gr bullets as well. Best external ballistics of the bunch.
270 Winchester, a 130gr bullet running 3060fps is a fantastic choice, nearly the same trajectory as the others but unlike the others the 270 is limited to the lighter bullet weights, it barely makes the 15lbs of recoil limit with 130s in an 8.5lbs rifle

1858
February 25, 2013, 11:56 AM
This will do just fine for me and any deer in the lower 49 (includes Hawaii).

.308 Win Kimber Montana and a Barnes 150gr TTSX VOR-TX factory load.

MUZZLE - 2820 fps, 2649 ft-lb, -1.5"
100Y - 2603 fps , 2258 ft-lb, 1.8"
200Y - 2397 fps, 1913 ft-lb, 0.0"
300Y - 2199 fps, 1612 ft-lb, -7.9"
400Y - 2012 fps, 1348 ft-lb, -23.0"
500Y - 1834 fps, 1120 ft-lb, -46.7"

hueyville
February 25, 2013, 12:24 PM
Kachook, For most deer in North GA and Western NC i use a 90 grain bullet in my 25-06 that is clocking across my chronograph at 3,375 fps. This load is still running at 3,050 fps at 100 yards and 2,400 at 300 yards. I wont hesitate to take a fair shot out to 400 yards with this on a deer and 500 if relatively simple shooting equation on a standing still animal. If I were inclined to shoot at elk, I would use my 117 grain load at 3,110 fps muzzle, 2,870 fps 100 yards, and 2,290 at 300 yards. I would probably limit myself to a 300 yard shot unless had a perfect broadside standing still elk down range then I may stretch it another 100. With a 75 grain bullet any coyote or ground hog I can see better be caught up on his praying. While there is a better caliber for each scenario, no single reasonably popular, i.e. buy lots of good factory ammo for, that I have used that is so multipurpose. Some of my 7mm's come close, but not as easy to buy as wide of purpose off the shelf ammo for.

Kachok
February 25, 2013, 01:27 PM
This will do just fine for me and any deer in the lower 49 (includes Hawaii).

.308 Win Kimber Montana and a Barnes 150gr TTSX VOR-TX factory load.

MUZZLE - 2820 fps, 2649 ft-lb, -1.5"
100Y - 2603 fps , 2258 ft-lb, 1.8"
200Y - 2397 fps, 1913 ft-lb, 0.0"
300Y - 2199 fps, 1612 ft-lb, -7.9"
400Y - 2012 fps, 1348 ft-lb, -23.0"
500Y - 1834 fps, 1120 ft-lb, -46.7"
Yeah just leave out the 500yard, most if not all bullets will expand notably better in the 2000fps range vs 1800fps. Seem several bullets tested at 1800fps on 10% BG the "expansion" was usually nothing more then a slightly deformed tip, step them up to 2k and you get much more impressive results. The TTSX is something of a tough bullet, if I ever were to use a bullet at such low impact speeds it would be something tipped, thin jacket rapid expansion not a solid copper bullet.

cja245
February 25, 2013, 02:15 PM
If you are only going to shoot factory ammo, the .308 is probably a better choice. If reload or have any intention to reload, the .30-06 is a much more versatile cartridge. Remember, you can always tailor your load to the purpose.

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