Where to find Angel investors interested in a small firearm related startup?


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RobV
February 14, 2013, 04:59 PM
Hey Folks,

I could use a little help and advice on how a person might go about raising ~$100k in seed money to turn an idea for a new kind of weapon from a patent application into a functioning prototype...

http://www.floridadiscountguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/nedg.png (http://www.theNEDG.com)

...you may have remembered me talking about it here:
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-683050.html

Well, I know some of you are just going to hate it, tell me how dumb it is, etc. but I actually got quite a bit of positive feedback, when I sent out our press release (http://www.floridadiscountguns.com/beauty-and-the-beast-south-florida-gun-designer-drops-jaws-after-unveiling-high-style-pink-gun-technology-and-patent-pending-ultra-high-capacity-assault-weapon/) last week, and I've decided I have enough 'traction' based on all the different feedback I'm hearing around the web to go after some funding.

For example, the Glock Forum posted the NEDG on their Facebook page, and got over 6200 'Likes' and over 2100 'Shares'!!! How about THAT for feedback?

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=829910&l=b6d2f983fa&id=124556454325172


But here are some of the issues I'm facing... The gun industry is running at max. No one has time to do anything. So that shuts down partnerships and just about anything involving smaller fabrication and manufacturing companies. Big companies won't talk to you until you have a patent in hand and a working prototype - but to get there, I need upwards of $100k.

So that leaves me with just 'gun nuts', like me, that are into the idea and think the marketsize and demand are also there. I've actually been approached by a few different potential investors but I need a way to reach more people like this. Advertise? That seems a bit different, but maybe its as simple as AdWords? Typical Angel investors are simply not interested in guns right now. They are running at peak, with an end in sight, one way or another.... either a ban or market saturation.

Anyway, I don't know where to seek money because it's gun oriented. I can't even use 'crowdfunding' sites, because they don't allow firearm related projects, so a lot of avenues seem closed to me. There must be new doors opening somewhere?

What would you do? How would you attack it?

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Claude Clay
February 14, 2013, 05:10 PM
...i have 512 friends on F.book and not 1 helped me shovel my driveway.
just saying that what people say there and what they do may be dissimiliar. not really the type of feedback i'd base a investment on.
though YMMV and it is neat looking.
practicial...?
how to sell it? as a SBR on one side or a handgun & rifle?

---------
as a bullpup (223, 18") and a SB shotgun ( 12 or 20) would get my attention.

RobV
February 14, 2013, 05:19 PM
Haha I hear you on Facebook, people will like anything, but still it got 3x the response they usually get.

As far as SBRs, this is where everyone seems a little confused, but the illustration of the kit you see on this page, when configured with 2 guns, would NOT be considered an SBR (if it were offered to the public) because the OVERALL LENGTH is greater than 26". Forget that it has 2 barrels and one is short - it doesn't matter. You need at least one barrel >16" barrel OR an overall length of 26"+…. so theoretically what you see here is an UNREGULATED firearm ACCESSORY, that when combined with 2 pistols is still legal. In other words, I could sell this right now in 7-11, with no background check. Who knows what will happen in a 'ban' situation.

RobV
February 14, 2013, 05:21 PM
I found it: a short barreled rifle is defined in the US Code, Title 18, Part I, Chapter, Sec. 921. as follows...

(8) The term ''short-barreled rifle'' means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.

blackrussian
February 14, 2013, 05:27 PM
Kel-Tec would probably build it.

RetiredUSNChief
February 14, 2013, 05:37 PM
Ohhhh.....

A "never empty double gun" with TWO pistol grips and TWO magazines in an evil looking matt black and militant looking ridges!

Diane Feinstein would be champing at the bit to get her mitts on one of these, just so she can pose with it in another AWB poster picture!

Only this time she can have TWO trigger fingers inside the trigger guards as she sweeps the crowd of supporters standing next to her...

This is a cool design, which has a LOT of potential in versitility. I don't have seed money, but if it ever goes into production I'll certainly be looking at it closely in performance reviews. If it performs as good as it looks, it would be mighty difficult for me not to buy one. This one is a work of art, as pictured.

:)

gym
February 14, 2013, 05:39 PM
You need to write a formal business plan, then submit it to investors and see what comes back.
I did this for a friend of mine in CA, in my spare time, but it still took a year. The problem with him was "vast", basically he was a flake, a great idea, but his life was a mess. Backers "supported", him instead of, using the money to advance the product. After 3 years of taking money, he still did not have a sample.
I gave up on him, after giving him a few more months to "straighten his life out", this was near the "end" of his dilusion.
If you are a level headed guy with a great idea, you need to do your homework, there are a multitude of websights that angel and other investors have set up to get the right funding, seed money, start up, etc, You need to have the Business plan before anyone will take you seriouslly. It's a pain in the butt to write it up properlly, but there are templates available in "word" or seperate programs that you just punch the info in and you get a plan.
It's a lot of work, but after dabbeling in it for a year or so, I learned that you simplly "have" to have it.
PS: always ask for the proper amount, this is the most important element. Some inventors are afraid to ask for sufficient funds to actually finish their product. Investors dislike having to re-up again, it shows them that you didn't know your marketplace/ costs.
If you need specifics PM me, I can give you some tips, like always get a Non compete / Non disclosure, mitigating risks, etc.
They expect these things from you prior to you giving them anything to look at.

Aaron Baker
February 14, 2013, 05:59 PM
I don't want to burst your bubble, but I would recommend sending the ATF Tech Branch a letter. They can tell you for certain whether they would consider the firearm to be a short-barreled rifle.

I think they will.

You posted:

I found it: a short barreled rifle is defined in the US Code, Title 18, Part I, Chapter, Sec. 921. as follows...

(8) The term ''short-barreled rifle'' means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.

That's unfortunately an "either or" proposition. It's a short-barreled rifle if it has a barrel less than 16 inches. It's a short-barreled rifle if it has a barrel greater than 16 inches, but an overall length less than 26 inches.

If your interpretation were correct, then a 10.5" barrel on an AR15 would not be a short-barreled rifle as long as the overall length was over 26 inches. As an owner of a 10.5" barreled AR15 that's registered as an SBR and has an overall length of 29", I can assure you that I really did have to apply for a tax stamp to be legal.

Your rifle, as configured, has "one or more barrels" (in this case only one of the two) that is less than 16 inches in length. Therefore it meets the definition of a short-barreled rifle.

I can't help you with the angel investors question, but I can guarantee you that no one is going to invest in a business making a new style of firearm that has one has to pay a $200 tax stamp to own.

Also, if this isn't a pipe dream, you should seriously consider building a functional prototype yourself. It would take far less than $100,000 to do that. People build their own firearms every day. Your design is certainly an original idea, but a reasonable proto-version could be made from off-the-shelf parts. First, buy two Glocks. Then buy a HERA stock for the Glock, which gets you halfway there. Then find a way to attach the second glock to the under-barrel rail on the HERA.

It won't be as pretty, but it's the same basic idea. Then start learning how to work with plastics or fiberglass yourself, get some basic metalworking tools (lathe, etc) that a hobbyist gunbuilder would have and churn out a real prototype.

Aaron

JustinJ
February 14, 2013, 06:03 PM
I don't get it. Why not just use a magazine with more capacity? Or design a new higher capacity mag and corresponding gun. What exactly is the benefit to having two seperate triggers and mags? It looks like a higher chance of failures to me.

edit: I think i get it. So the point is that you leave one mag loaded in reserve so you are loaded for a brief mag change? Would that really be an issue considering how pistol caliber carbines are generally used? Also, if you're in the process of swapping mags wouldn't you be too distracted to shoot anyways? Regardless, wouldn't you get the same effect by attached a revolver to the bottom of an AR quadrail? I think a much better device would be one that alerts you somehow when you are down to three, two and one round so that one can just leave one in the chamber while reloading and you'd still be able to fire during a mag change although honestly i don't think shooting during a mag swap is very practical.

RetiredUSNChief
February 14, 2013, 06:23 PM
The real attraction for me would be a combination weapon...say, shotgun and rifle.

RobV
February 14, 2013, 07:00 PM
I get where you guys are coming from - you have good ideas, the problem is this area is riddled with patents that you need to avoid. Why not attach a pistol to a long gun via a simple attachment? Because it's already patented. That's actually the case with most everything, actually.

As far as reloading goes, you don't really HAVE to keep shooting the front gun WHILE you reload the back one, but theoretically you could. The point is at least you have something ready to rock if you needed it.

I'm not saying you guys fit this description but most gun guys envision themselves as some sort of Navy SEAL, capable of a one second flawless reload when in fact in a bad situation it may take them forever. First, most guys I know cant do everything without looking at their gun - and in the dark this would be a problem. The whole point of this thing is just having more bullets available - so many you may not have to reload at all. In a short, it's a poorman's totally legal machine gun substitute - it was designed to rain lead.

Anyway, while I would think only 1 out of a 500 gun owners might entertain buying one of these that's still plenty enough people to justify moving forward. The problem is simply funding. This isn't going to need a bunch of money, because really all I'm making is a CASE that joins 2 guns together, not designing an entirely new firearm, which would cost much more. But $100k is still $100k. The question is how to go about finding investors. There seems like there should be some association or something of Angels investing in the gun space, but I can't find any.

RobV
February 14, 2013, 07:03 PM
>Kel-Tec
No response. (Only Wilson Combat was polite enough out of 20+ companies to actually respond.)

RobV
February 14, 2013, 07:28 PM
>Feinstein
I should've named it after her:) But yeah, it is a ban-buster for sure:)

>It's a short-barreled rifle if it has a barrel less than 16 inches. It's a short-barreled rifle if it has a barrel greater than 16 inches, but an overall length less than 26 inches.

The top barrel of the NEDG is exactly 16.1" long. The overall length is 30.1". So by either definition, it is not an SBR. But you are are right, I do need to write them and get their interpretation and no one will buy it if they need to buy a stamp. BATF just sent me their mailing address, BTW, to do this. (They do not respond to inquires like this by email.)

>building a functional prototype yourself
Well, I actually have quotes on that and it led me up to about $29k if I did it in carbon fiber and a mossberg double barrel. And then I would still need to do CAM designs before it could ever be mass produced and since I don't plan on doing it in carbon fiber, it seems useless to design this way. I think I can actually make one machined out of metal for about $30k, and an injection molded one for about $50k, but once I get the injection molding going, the cost drops radically.

But there are legal concerns, plus finalizing the Utility patent, legal fees, CPAs, not to mention Murphy's Law. They said $30k so I tripled it. The fact is, in this industry you can't even get a vague quote before you have CAM drawings. That's where the first ~$10k will go.

There are a few natural breaks in the process. The first one is right now. The next one is after the blue prints are done, the next is after the patents are finally submitted, and I have a killer VC proposal in hand. Then AFTER I have the working prototype. Then After we are into production.

But I don't see any reason to build in a way that can't be directly applied towards the finished product. I dont need to actually prove it works. It's not that big of a leap for the imagination. The leap is just doing it, now that we see what people are saying about it.

<...edited...>

Kybill
February 14, 2013, 07:29 PM
Unfortunately it is unlikely you will find an angel outside of family or friends at this stage. Timing is everything. Trying to raise venture capital to build and take to market another 'scary' looking gun at a time when every liberal politico wants to ban private gun ownership would not be a sound investment even of your own money. In fact it is highly doubtful that you would even find anyone willing to factor your invoices to raise short term cash were you in full production. Sorry to be so blunt. ( it does actually seem pretty cool though)

Now if your gun goes bang better than anything comparable uncle sam might buy it at an exhorbitant price so it could be used as a tool when it's time to confiscate our weapons. Or if you find a fully repugnant way of marketing the gun, something beyond tasteful for anyone with a moral compass, our government might provide you an outright grant so as not to stifle your artistic expression.

somerandomguy
February 14, 2013, 07:31 PM
Kickstarter? You could always try something like crowd-funding.

Telekinesis
February 14, 2013, 08:00 PM
You might want to be careful about posting pictures of that prototype, it seems to me that you do have a SBR. I think that you are misreading the statutory definition of a SBR, but look at it this way: if you have the stock and just the forward pistol, why is it not a SBR? Now if that IS a SBR, why does adding another gun to the system make it anything different?

Unfortunately I don't think you'll get an angel investor any time soon. With the current situation of AWB legislation in congress, I highly doubt anyone will be interested in investing in something that may be deemed illegal before it even hits production. (I say *may* because it depends on what they define an assault weapon as in the final legislation - but either way you're making something that looks scary and might be subject to an AWB). If anything, angel investors will want as much documentation as possible, including ATF's ruling that it is completely legal. A good business plan is just the start.

Fryerpower
February 14, 2013, 08:12 PM
Crowd source it using the same method the coffee joulies used.

Google kickstarter.

Jim

Dang it! Someone beat me to it!

Sam Cade
February 14, 2013, 08:52 PM
I found it: a short barreled rifle is defined in the US Code, Title 18, Part I, Chapter, Sec. 921. as follows...

Behold the UTA19.

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSN1HatnsMQ_75SWRh2Rr8jcDFpqgAy_e58f8Rsmz0v5FMqpFjV

http://www.fab-defense.com/en/category-parts-and-upgrades/id-50/univeral-tactical-attachment-for-glock-19.html

Attaching a pistol to your rifle with one of these turns the pistol to a SBR.

Jorg Nysgerrig
February 14, 2013, 09:01 PM
No response. (Only Wilson Combat was polite enough out of 20+ companies to actually respond.)
Most companies won't reply to receiving unsolicited designs to avoid IP questions later.

Google kickstarter.
Kickstarter has a whole laundry list of projects they don't allow. Firearms is one of the categories, along with pet supplies, exercise equipment, home improvement products, cosmetics, and eyewear.

gym
February 14, 2013, 09:04 PM
After thinking about this , the best advise you got was that it would be extremely hard in this climate to find someone to back this.
You really don't know if it's legal to produce it or if it would be allowed by the ATF. What you might want to spend what money you do have on, is a "legal opinion", if you feel that stronglly about it.
Also "Knights" has an office in town, I spoke to the head of HR, last week ,
the guys name is Howard, and he is very nice.
I would call them and see if they would sign a non disclosure letter, and possiblly get a legal opinion from them, or sell it to someone, in the market for a new product, who was already set up to manufacture. They are nice folks and would probablly help you out.
It dosen't sound hard to make.
Once you find out how much it will cost you to manufacture and get all of the necessary licenses, "if you even could", it may not be worth doing it being that none of the normal "Gunthy Ranker" types would touch anything in the gun market"
If you had a finished product, you could bid it out, but it's a "catch 22", at this point.
It's really hard when dealing with guns, and start ups. I think that's why gunsmiths are usually the ones who come up with new toys.
You are putting it out there so anyone interested will more than likelly get in touch with you.

Shadow 7D
February 14, 2013, 09:39 PM
I would suggest you look into the legalities of it....
when building a gun, one of the STANDARD things done for a 'none standard or prototype' is to get the ATF technical letter, esp. when building a gun from a FA kit (or as you a NFA gun) as you might do one thing, BUT need to do something separate to make it considered 'not readily convertible'

Secondly read up on these guys, they had a great idea, they had functioning, they had development, and supposedly money, and a production plant, and yet... they said they would deliver in about 6 months, first deliveries were about 2 years....

http://www.bobergarms.com/

barnbwt
February 14, 2013, 10:58 PM
The top barrel of the NEDG is exactly 16.1" long. The overall length is 30.1". So by either definition, it is not an SBR.
My interpretation has always been that any and all barrel(s) must be 16+ long. As far as the lower barrel is concerned, the upper barrel is nothing more than a foregrip :D and not a "muzzle extension" that would bring the length up to par. Still, a good question to submit to Tech Branch, since, unlike the other Glockification products (like the UTA19) your short barrel is non-detachable, and could be classified differently (probably not, though :( ). I've heard of folks wanting to make combo "master key" guns, and the thinking was to keep the individual components above their individual limits, and the OAL of the gun the highest of the OAL's allowed.

A tax stamp isn't necessarily the death-knell for an idea, though; suppressors are just as restricted, and yet there is a vibrant (if niche) demand in this country. In a country like Canada, it could be even more useful, since mags are limited to 5 rounds, and covered-reloads would be all the more important for a home-defender. IIRC, Canada has different SBR requirements than us US folk, and their capacity rules may not apply to the sum total in a gun's magazines, for all I know.

Do a Google search to see if there's a non-restricted Kickstarter equivalent out there. I'm sure burgeoning young cosmetics entrepreneurs have found some way of getting in on the crowd-funding bandwagon :p. The only other option is constant, tireless trolling/polling of gun forums such as this one :eek::D

I think I can actually make one machined out of metal for about $30k, and an injection molded one for about $50k, but once I get the injection molding going, the cost drops radically.
A proof of concept gun (which is really what you actually need at this stage, not a production-ready prototype) of sufficient aesthetics and full functionality could be made by hand as from rough-carved wood covered over with Bondo filler. It would be functional, as pretty as you'd like it to be, and plenty durable for testing (if not as light as a true-blue injection molding). If you or someone you know is handy enough for the task, it'd also be a lot easier than dealing with other businesses for a sensitive custom project like this, too. Rapid prototyping is also an option if you already have a CAD model; just polish the form with acetone, and you'd be good to go for fit/ergonomics/handling testing (and potentially even live-fire :evil:). 50,000$ is chump change for a company that'd consider mass producing this, so there is no need for you to spend that money tooling up and developing the product for their benefit :cool: (they'll need to change the design drastically to make it cheap enough to produce, anyway)

Good luck, this idea is the most original I've seen since TITAN 308 pitched his product here recently (to the howls of many doubters, as well :D)

TCB

Aaron Baker
February 14, 2013, 11:14 PM
your short barrel is non-detachable

His short barrel ISN'T non-detachable.

Unless I'm wrong, it's a stock that allows you to put two Glocks in it. If you were to put only the front Glock in the stock, it would clearly be an SBR.

More importantly, parse the language of the statute:

The term ''short-barreled rifle'' means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.

This firearm has one barrel less than sixteen inches in length. It is, therefore, a short-barreled rifle.

Seriously, consult an attorney knowledgeable in the National Firearms Act before you get yourself in trouble. You're developing a cool idea, but you don't want to go to prison because you've gotten ahead of yourself. Also, you should take down the picture of your prototype, despite the fact that it is possible that it only contains airsoft pistols.

Aaron

Aaron Baker
February 14, 2013, 11:16 PM
And if that didn't convince you, research the "Master key." It's a shotgun designed to mount under an AR15/M16 barrel. It has a barrel less than 18 inches. When mounted to an AR15, it is a short-barreled shotgun even if the AR15 has a legal-length barrel.

None of your barrels can be less than 16 inches, no matter how many barrels you have, unless you've paid the $200 tax.

At least ask the ATF Tech Branch. It's cheap insurance.

Aaron

Bubbles
February 15, 2013, 09:33 AM
At least ask the ATF Tech Branch. It's cheap insurance.
This. Or have another manufacturer register the thing free on F2 as an SBR and then they can ask. If it's not an SBR, it's easy enough to de-register, but if it is an SBR then you won't be nailed for having an unregistered one.

As for where to get funds, whatever is in your savings account is what's available right now with the risk in the industry.

RobV
February 15, 2013, 11:57 AM
Wow, this is great feedback. Thank you.

As far as the SBR thing goes, it's as simple as this: it is whatever BATF says it is. They sent me their mailing address, and I'm going to write them a note with several different configurations (or 'embodiments') of the same invention, so they can confirm what is, and what it is not.

That said, let me just say some final things about SBRs...

Short barreled ARs are usually SBRs because they usually have short (removable/exchangeable) stocks as well, and their overall length is not over 26". In other words, if you have a fixed stock - one that must be attached in order for the gun to fire - and that stock has overall length of 26" - forget barrels. A 30" long rifle is not an SBR. It doesn't matter even if it has a 2" barrel. The rule does not apply. And the the NEDG at a fixed 30" is no longer easily concealable. That's the entire purpose of that clause: to avoid this entire argument.

As far as business plans, docs, NDAs, presentations, one page summaries go, they are all password protected on the corporate website, located here:
http://www.floridadiscountguns.com/investors-and-partners/ (http://www.floridadiscountguns.com/investors-and-partners/) so I hear you on that.

Bad time to enter the market, well, you might be right on that if I'm going after the civilian market, but I'm getting some positive feedback from a few LEOs, and I had one company overseas contact me seeking to distribute to LEOs and Military in Central Europe. So if my plan gets 'Feinsteined', and I can't find a workaround, I may have to target that market instead, but if I can sell a few hundred of these, I think we can make all our money back, because I'm so incredibly starving-dog lean...

SoCalNoMore
February 15, 2013, 12:15 PM
Wow, this is great feedback. Thank you.

As far as the SBR thing goes, it's as simple as this: it is whatever BATF says it is. They sent me their mailing address, and I'm going to write them a note with several different configurations (or 'embodiments') of the same invention, so they can confirm what is, and what it is not.

That said, let me just say some final things about SBRs...

Short barreled ARs are usually SBRs because they usually have short (removable/exchangeable) stocks as well, and their overall length is not over 26". In other words, if you have a fixed stock - one that must be attached in order for the gun to fire - and that stock has overall length of 26" - forget barrels. A 30" long rifle is not an SBR. It doesn't matter even if it has a 2" barrel. The rule does not apply. And the the NEDG at a fixed 30" is no longer easily concealable. That's the entire purpose of that clause: to avoid this entire argument.

As far as business plans, docs, NDAs, presentations, one page summaries go, they are all password protected on the corporate website, located here:
http://www.floridadiscountguns.com/investors-and-partners/ (http://www.floridadiscountguns.com/investors-and-partners/) so I hear you on that.

Bad time to enter the market, well, you might be right on that if I'm going after the civilian market, but I'm getting some positive feedback from a few LEOs, and I had one company overseas contact me seeking to distribute to LEOs and Military in Central Europe. So if my plan gets 'Feinsteined', and I can't find a workaround, I may have to target that market instead, but if I can sell a few hundred of these, I think we can make all our money back, because I'm so incredibly starving-dog lean...
If you sell a few hundred of these.... have you determined the cost of your liability insurance in that?

The SBA has free consultation from very good professional available. I would start there.

Sam Cade
February 15, 2013, 12:40 PM
Short barreled ARs are usually SBRs because they usually have short (removable/exchangeable) stocks as well, and their overall length is not over 26". In other words, if you have a fixed stock - one that must be attached in order for the gun to fire - and that stock has overall length of 26" - forget barrels. A 30" long rifle is not an SBR. It doesn't matter even if it has a 2" barrel. The rule does not apply. And the the NEDG at a fixed 30" is no longer easily concealable.
.

No. No. No. No.

To Wit: A M4 carbine clone with the stock collapsed is 29.75" long with a 14.5" barrel.

In order for a 14.5" barrel to be non-NFA , a muzzle device that extends the OAL of the barrel past a nominal 16" must be permanently affixed.

This puts the OAL of the rifle well past 30" with the stock collapsed.

Bubbles
February 15, 2013, 12:43 PM
As far as the SBR thing goes, it's as simple as this: it is whatever BATF says it is. They sent me their mailing address, and I'm going to write them a note with several different configurations (or 'embodiments') of the same invention, so they can confirm what is, and what it is not.
Typically they want a sample as well as drawings.

InkEd
February 15, 2013, 12:48 PM
I can't believe how many serious replies this post has received. :banghead:

RobV
February 15, 2013, 01:51 PM
>I can't believe how many serious replies this post has received.

That's because I'm dead serious. I'm going to seriously build this. And people will seriously buy it. And I will make serious money:)

RobV
February 15, 2013, 01:57 PM
>with the stock collapsed is 29.75" long
And you can easily remove that stock, and in it's place put on the attachment the pistol versions use, and shorten it below the legal limit. That stock is not an integral part of the gun, and is made to be swapped by the operator, not a gunsmith.

Try looking at it this way...
the term ''short-barreled rifle'' means a rifle having one or more barrels [...] if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.
...we'll see what the BATF says.

RobV
February 15, 2013, 02:05 PM
>If you sell a few hundred of these.... have you determined the cost of your liability insurance in that?

I believe it will be something astronomical, but if we do it using injection molding, I think the market will bear the price. There may be no room for dealers initially, however. To be honest, though, I'm seeking to partner or get bought out before I ever produce the first batch. If we go to production alone, then we'll raise a 'Series A' and go for it. The board will probably pat me on the back and place a new CEO in my place, and I'm onto my next project.

At least that's what it says on page 32:) Keep the faith;)

Shadow 7D
February 15, 2013, 04:37 PM
Rob, you have guys who are QUOTING THE LAW to you, trying to explain what you are doing wrong, I offer you the OTHER side of the law

Go ahead and make it
if you are wrong in your thinking of the definition of a SBR (and you are)
that's 10 years IN PRISON and $100,000 in fines....
your risk, go for it.

Sam Cade
February 15, 2013, 05:01 PM
>with the stock collapsed is 29.75" long
And you can easily remove that stock, and in it's place put on the attachment the pistol versions use, and shorten it below the legal limit.

A rifle cannot legally have a barrel shorter than 16" or an OAL of shorter than 26" without being papered as an SBR. Period.

A pistol can be freely assembled into a rifle configuration but it MUST meet all requirements of a non-NFA weapon.




Q: What is the registered part of a Short Barreled Rifle (SBR) or Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)?

While a receiver alone may be classified as a “firearm” under the Gun Control Act (GCA), SBRs and SBSs are classified in totality under the National Firearms Act (NFA). A firearm that meets the definition of a SBR consists of a rifle that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length. A SBS consists of a shotgun that has a barrel less than 18 inches in length. The serialized receiver is recorded for registration in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record (NFRTR).


http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-short-barreled-rifles-shotguns.html#part-registered

MAKster
February 15, 2013, 08:44 PM
This seems like an awful convoluted answer to an easy problem. Wouldn't it be much simpler to just drop your mag and reload when you still have a round left in the chamber. If you needed to fire before inserting the fresh mag you could fire the round in the chamber.

KLL
February 15, 2013, 11:16 PM
Rob, here is my answer, from experience on both ends of the situation, to your original question, how do you get investors:

As one poster mentioned, a business plan is a big first step. Part of this would be what most of the rest of this thread has been about, the classification, legality, and other legal issues involving your device. That should be laid out for a potential investor first and foremost, so they know what they are investing in is legal. I would want to know 100% that what I am putting thousands of dollars into can actually exist and be sold without legal issues.

Beyond that first element of the business plan, knowing the costs of producing your product, who you would sell it to, how many you think you could sell, overhead, etc., and documentation to back up all of those claims. And one big thing to include with the numbers, is when and how do I, as an investor, get my money back! After all that is why people invest, to make more money than what they put in to start. You also need to consider how much equity in your company you are giving away. You also need to know your competition, research if others have tried similar things in the past and why they were or were not successful, and essentially be a genius when it comes to the market you plan to do business in.

Investors will also want to know about you personally, as far as your career, education, your financial history (do you pay your bills and fulfill obligations, or do you leave creditors hanging, have you handled large loans well in the past, etc.), is this a full-time job or a pet project, and so on. If people don't like you AND trust you, they won't give you money, regardless of your product.

There is of course a lot more than goes into it, but these are the main items I'd expect to be presented to me, at minimum.

As to where you'd find potential investors to present this information to, friends, family, any gun enthusiast, anyone can be an investor. It's difficult to just find a list of people, word of mouth, talking, networking, etc. is pretty much how you connect with those who may be interested.

And don't let the current conditions get you down, when I see a market like this, I put money into the industry, because right now it's hard to have a product NOT sell. For instance, Cabela's is a stock I watch, right after Sandy Hook they took a dump, I put cash in, and they were up 20% within a couple weeks. Right now emotions will down businesses in the short term, but the economics don't lie, the firearms industry is printing money right now, as long as your business does not revolve around items with a high likelihood of being banned or regulated more, there's not a lot to worry about more than usual.

RobV
February 16, 2013, 09:32 AM
>Rob, you have guys who are QUOTING THE LAW to you,
No, I have people telling me their interpretation of the Law, based on their experiences and hearsay... and Sam was kind enough to quote a FAQ about the law, after you wrote that... but the only actual law that was actually quoted, was the law I quoted to you, which is US Code, Title 18, Part I, Chapter, Sec. 921.

Sam's point is that he keeps seeing the 'LESS THAN 16"' quote and that's all he feels that is important because the lower gun has a short barrel. I disagree, because lower down on the same page it says,

"Installation of a barrel greater than 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS) will remove the firearm from the purview of the NFA[...]"

...so once again, we see an example of a FAQ (not a law) written from the perspective that double guns don't exist, so it's interpretation is subjective, but it seems clear, once "a barrel greater than 16 inches in length" is installed, it will "remove the firearm from the purview of the NFA". And when combined with an overall length of 26"+ (in my case 30") again, this weapon does NOT resemble a SBR, as defined by US Code, Title 18, Part I, Chapter, Sec. 921.

And just to say it again, I ALREADY wrote the BATF, and they responded with the appropriate snail mail address to send them my proposal. Which I am writing now. (And as Bubbles said, they will likely want a real life sample, which I don't have, but I dont think that will be an issue.) So everyone can quit worrying I'm going to go to jail. This thing only exists on paper. Once I can put bullets in it, then we can worry about that:)

>KLL
You just nailed several points spot on. The SBR issue is critical in understanding the scope of the market, which is a key factor in an investment decision. Liability is the other one.

>when I see a market like this, I put money into the industry
spoken like a true contrarian investor:) I totally agree, and Cabelas was a great example.

>when and how do I, as an investor, get my money back!
Agreed. It's really the only thing that matters to them. Right now I think we are looking at $10k convertible or exchangeable notes, as an alternative to direct equity swaps. This allows for smaller investors to come in and have the bulk of the money they invest go towards what's needed, as opposed to all the legal and accounting bills that could add up to almost half of the investment, just to get all the paperwork square. If they are interested in investing more that $25k, then I'll consider selling equity, otherwise, if I can raise ~$100k in a seed round, between ~10 investors, and issue convertible notes, we could basically end up with the patent, the blueprints and a working demo, and then go into a Series A and become a manufacturer, or sell out.

>where you'd find potential investors
Yeah, I think we put the SBR thing to rest.... BATF will decide... so I'd like to talk more about where to find venture money. Ideally, I was hoping there might be an angel fund somewhere that invested in firearm related startups, but so far I havent found any.

I HAVE found 3 people I would call 'potential investors'. One introduced himself to me over at the Glock Forum (a real estate investor/gun nut), one saw my Press Release (a France based LEO weapons distributor), and one I found yesterday morning by going over to a LinkedIn Angel Investment group and saw a post that said:

If you have an executive summary and your idea has a sell/cost ratio of 5:1 minimum, has broad consumer or customer appeal
and you have invested more than $3000.00 in development and your friends/relatives think your possibly deranged or insane for coming up with the idea, contact me.

That sounded like someone ready to get back in the game, so I fired back the following (cheeky) reply...

How does [your private investment company] feel about guns? PinkGuns and 'assalt weapons' in particular?

I have a firearm design and technology oriented startup, seeking $100k in seed money to help develop a conversion kit, that turns two semi-automatic pistols into a new form of non-regulated ultra high capacity assault weapon, called a 'Never-Empty Double Gun' (or 'NEDG'). What makes this weapon unique is it's ability to be reloaded before it ever runs out of bullets, which ensures it's operator is never defenseless.

I spent 5 months of my time and $4k of my own money on 3 sites:
http://www.PinkGun.com - offers custom decorated handguns for women.
http://www.theNEDG.com - features a patent-pending ultra high capacity assault weapon we seek funding to develop.
http://www.FloridaDiscountGuns.com - our corporate site

For an overview of the two projects, please see our most recent press release:
http://goo.gl/ZT1HX

For an example of traction, please see this Facebook post made by the 'Glock Forum' about the NEDG which received over 6200 'Likes' and over 2100 'Shares' and several hundred comments…
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=829910&l=b6d2f983fa&id=124556454325172
...I can point to other more extensive discussions in other forums, which also show that there is in fact a strong demand for this invention of mine.

In short, I know some investors look at me and this project like I just farted in church, but I got your 5:1 ratio right here:) The real question then is if [your private investment company] is interested in funding a firearm startup. If it will consider such a venture, then you and I should talk. If it won't, I'm hoping you happen to know another Angel that is a 'gun nut' type, that quietly likes to get out of the Valley once and a while and go hunting hogs, or shooting, or something which involves guns, because when they get a load of me - and what I've dreamt up - I'll bet you the first $100 we make, that person will lead my round.

...and the conversation took off from there, went to email, and lasted well into the night. I liked it because it was on LinkedIn so he could see my resume (which I agree is a key part to the equation) and I hit on all the main points I needed to in a pitch, and he was genuinely interested.

He ended up being an NRA/CCW card carrier and we both went to the same university, so that always helps a little, but we just seemed to hit it off. He hit me with questions, I gave him unvarnished answers. I have no idea if we will ever get to a term sheet, but all 3 of these folks are pretty serious. The chances of me closing at least one are good, my chances at 2 aren't bad, and all 3 is realistically possible.

Questions need answered, proposals written, term sheets negotiated, etc. but there is money out there for this, its just a question of finding it. It seems very random.

ATBackPackin
February 16, 2013, 10:41 AM
Just out of curiousity.......wouldn't having the ability to fire two rounds simultaneously, out of the same weapon, take it out of the realm of semi-auto? I honestly do not know which is why I am asking.

Shawn

RobV
February 16, 2013, 11:52 AM
No, it shouldn't.... one bullet per trigger pull.

Sam Cade
February 16, 2013, 11:59 AM
Just out of curiousity.......wouldn't having the ability to fire two rounds simultaneously, out of the same weapon, take it out of the realm of semi-auto?

Nope. It is "2" firearms. One shot per pull of the trigger.



this weapon does NOT resemble a SBR, as defined by US Code, Title 18, Part I, Chapter, Sec. 921


What you are missing is that double guns DO exist and the ATF has already decided about their status.
Each individual firearm must meet the legal definition.

So your stock mounts 2 glocks, the rearmost glock is fitted with a 16"+ plus barrel. It is perfectly kosher provided that the OAL is now over 26".
The front mounted glock becomes a SBR however since it is still using a factory length barrel.

Remember *2* firearms.

Vector
February 16, 2013, 12:04 PM
...i have 512 friends on F.book and not 1 helped me shovel my driveway.
just saying that what people say there and what they do may be dissimiliar.

---------


I always get a kick out of people who mention how many Facebook "friends" they have, almost like it shows how popular they think they are. In reality most of the people on FB are not true friends.
I myself do not have an account because I believe in privacy and am not narcissistic enough to need the adulation of other quasi acquaintances.

As to the OP, I guess any help might be tough to come by in this current anti-gun hysteria/environment.

barnbwt
February 16, 2013, 12:23 PM
I'd point the OP to the NFA forum for more qualified/experienced legal advice on the device. Like I said earlier, SBR isn't the end of the world (hell, those little ZIP gun doohickeys are selling and have no purpose but to be mounted as an SBR) but it will affect your marketing strategy and markets. Something to be mindful of for your business plan/pitch.

Anyone know if this thing with two lo-cap mags would be legal in Canada? I know they have a shorter SBR requirement (or is it no SBR length? :confused:) but stringent mag capacity limits, and this could be a way to negate some of that imposed disadvantage for home-defense use. If available as a non SBR (side by side :D) it would be a boon to sad places like California and New York, where the limits tend to be on "ammunition feeding devices" themselves, and not the gun's total accessible capacity (because butt stock shell holders for Fudds would be banned :neener:). Like said earlier, the two firing mechanisms are legally separate firearms under one name/serial.

Since crooks can easily drill out the pop rivets used to limit capacity up there, it is very possible for a low-cap law-abiding homeowner to be assaulted by someone with a full capacity--the latter more vulnerable during frequent reloads.

TCB

**picturing a guy loading Glocks into the frame instead of magazines...New York Reload! :D
**thinking of a guy sawing off one of his SxS barrels :D :D

Sam Cade
February 16, 2013, 03:53 PM
Anyone know if this thing with two lo-cap mags would be legal in Canada? I know they have a shorter SBR requirement (or is it no SBR length? :confused:) but stringent mag capacity limits, and this could be a way to negate some of that imposed disadvantage for home-defense use.

Canadian semi-auto rifles are limited to 5 rounds. A full sized glock is a Restricted class firearm.

No idea about the legality of a CCU or similar or whether or not it would make the Restricted pistol into a Prohibited semi auto rifle.

Aaron Baker
February 17, 2013, 10:01 AM
No, I have people telling me their interpretation of the Law, based on their experiences and hearsay... and Sam was kind enough to quote a FAQ about the law, after you wrote that... but the only actual law that was actually quoted, was the law I quoted to you, which is US Code, Title 18, Part I, Chapter, Sec. 921.

You have people telling you their reading of the plain text of the law. And at least some of those people are attorneys. (I know this because I'm an attorney, although I'm not forming an attorney-client relationship with you, which is why I suggested getting a tech branch letter.)

Let's look at 26 USC Section 5845, where "short barreled rifle" is defined. (The section you're reading just restates the definition.)

For the purpose of this chapter—
(a) Firearm
The term “firearm” means
[...]
(3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;
(4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;

As you can see, there's more than one way for a firearm to be a short-barreled rifle. It isn't a matter of having to meet ALL the parts of this section. It's an "OR" proposition. EACH of these things constitutes a "firearm" within the meaning of the NFA. (When the National Firearms Act defines "firearm," it isn't referring to all firearms as we normally define that term. It is referring to the firearms that require a $200 tax stamp. Again, not something you'd necessarily realize if you weren't a lawyer who was familiar with the NFA.)

Under the first subsection, your rifle is a short-barreled rifle if it has a barrel under 16 inches in length. Using the normal methods of statutory interpretation that lawyers are trained on, this means that it doesn't matter if you have a barrel over 16 inches if you have another barrel that's 6 inches. If you have ANY barrel under 16 inches, it's an SBR.

The second subsection says ff you modify a rifle, it can't be less than 26" OR have a barrel less than 16".

As applied to your firearm, you have a barrel that's less than 16". That makes it an SBR. I know you want to stop discussing this aspect of it because you're excited about the idea of investors and less excited about the possibility (which seems remote in your mind) that your idea won't be commercially viable because it's an NFA firearm. I think you're in denial, frankly. Talk to the ATF or an attoney well-versed in the NFA before you get too deep into funding a project that very few civilians will buy.

I have my own opinions about whether your project has commercial viability regardless of its SBR status, but I'm not here to offer you opinions on its viability because that's not the question you asked. Although you also didn't ask whether you'd created a highly-regulated NFA firearm, I felt you should be aware that you had, since that directly affects the funding availability from investors.

Aaron

gym
February 17, 2013, 11:12 AM
Here is an idea, use facebook as a platform for pro-2A rights, that's what I use mine for. I only allow a few friends to join, but it's open to the public. There are hundreds of people who suddenlly want to befriend you, but you can just keep it open to the issues that you feel need a platform, like Rescue animals, and Guns.
I post the latest pro gun news, and NRA stuff, along with any critisisms of the current policys. Also the latest gear that I happen to like.
Just a thought, it's just another platform to get out the word.

RobV
February 17, 2013, 11:32 AM
>ATF has already decided about their status.
Each individual firearm must meet the legal definition.

Sam, I swear I don't mean to sound so argumentative, but can you please show me where? The Firearms Blog wrote a little piece on the NEDG and conversations sprang up everywhere about it, and they always start out the same way, and everyone is alway basing their entire argument on a strong supposedly factual statement, but no one can ever point out their source for this information... which turns the whole dialogue into one like this one where it's about who can win, instead of who is right.

>You have people telling you their reading of the plain text of the law. And at least some of those people are attorneys. (I know this because I'm an attorney)
Then as an attorney, you should know to be more precise in your wording, because you said people were quoting the law... and just because you are an attorney doesn't mean anyone else in this thread is, so you should say and 'at least one', instead of 'some', because that presumes I have multiple attorneys telling me their interpretation of the law, instead of just you, which may or not be the case... and if it's NOT the case, and you are wrong, then you are just another point source for confusion on the subject, people will point to substantiate their own flawed arguments. And this really goes double for you, imo, since you brought up that you are an attorney, but you aren't even offering this as a legal opinion, by your own admission... which means really all you are really giving us is just your personal opinion, which I do thank you for, even-though I don't agree with you.

I also already stated earlier the only opinion that should concern me/anyone is the BATF's opinion, at this point, and further discussion rehashing the same points over and over are boarding on being off-topic, since I've said multiple times that I have plans to write the BATF in the very near future about this (now that they sent me their address) AND that I vehemently agreed with you that the SBR issue is critical in understanding the scope of the market, which is obviously a key factor in any investment decision.

...so can we now let the SBR issue rest? There will be no correct answer until the BATF replies, anyway. If I'm wrong, the civilian version will get two 16.1" barrels, and those that want to get a stamp can saw it off:)

I know it's getting really hard to tell, but the title of my thread is 'Where to find Angel investors interested in a small firearm related startup?'

>this could be a way to negate some of that imposed disadvantage for home-defense use.
Right. That's part of the charm:) That's one of the things we are looking at now.

Sam Cade
February 17, 2013, 02:07 PM
Sam, I swear I don't mean to sound so argumentative, but can you please show me [B]where?

I've seen half a dozen letters first hand dealing with mounting a "Masterkey" type stockless shotgun.

15 seconds on google gives me an ATF letter that directly answers the question.

Qs 30,31, 32 and 33.

http://i.imgur.com/1D6my.jpg

Aaron Baker
February 17, 2013, 02:43 PM
Yes, the only opinion that matters is the ATF's. Although I am not your attorney, I am an attorney who has studied the National Firearms Act and the ATF's interpretation of it. My opinion (however you want to classify it) is that, given my study of the statute and the ATF's previous opinions on similar configurations (like the one Sam posted), your proposed firearm is a short-barreled rifle.

I know you don't like my opinion, but it still seems like you're sticking your head in the sand in regards to what the statute actually says and the interpretations the ATF has made of that statute.

Until you get an answer from the Tech Branch, it is my personal opinion that you're getting ahead of yourself looking for investors. You don't know what you're asking someone to invest in. Sure, you know what the physical item is. But you don't know if this is the next big thing in tacticool gadgets available to Joe-Bob the Average Firearm Gadget Buyer or if you're trying to sell a gadget that will only be available to civilians willing to pay a $200 tax stamp and to the hard-to-penetrate military and law enforcement market.

I really am not trying to be a jerk. I'm trying to give you a head's-up on a serious issue that will affect your funding efforts. To be frank, I think your invention is "neat" but attempts to solve a problem that doesn't exist. The military and law enforcement use fire teams and back-up officers to keep fire on a target while others are reloading. They practice fast magazine changes and changing magazines before they're empty. They aren't likely to adopt a new firearm.

Furthermore, one of the benefits of magazine-in-grip setups is that you can bring the magazine and your grip hand together in the dark or without looking. Despite the magazine-in-grip setup of your firearm, you eliminate that benefit by requiring the off hand to reload into a magazine well that isn't where you hand is. I think the awkwardness of reloads guts your argument that you can keep a loaded firearm on target.

If your firearm is more of a gimmick gadget than a solution to a real tactical problem, then you're hoping for a civilian market. That market is tiny if it's an NFA firearm.

I'm sorry. I feel like I'm being a jerk despite my best attempts not to. I guess that's what happens when you open your idea up to criticism by asking the internet where to find investors.

Good luck with your endeavor.

Aaron

waterhouse
February 17, 2013, 03:14 PM
I have no answer for your investor idea, but please remove your prototype picture of your SBR until the ATF lets you know that it is an SBR.

Sam1911
February 17, 2013, 03:58 PM
I have no answer for your investor idea, but please remove your prototype picture of your SBR until the ATF lets you know that it is an SBR.Unfortunately, it hardly matters. Post it anywhere on the internet for 5 seconds and it cannot be retracted. It is what it is, and whoever cares to see it can see it. :(

Aaron Baker
February 17, 2013, 04:13 PM
Which is why I really hope that the OP's prototype uses two airsoft Glocks, which is entirely possible.

JShirley
February 17, 2013, 04:32 PM
The picture does not appear to be an actual firearm.

The law clearly states this weapon would contain an SBR. Your understanding or agreement is not required for this to be true.

Closing.

John

Sam1911
March 29, 2013, 10:17 AM
Looks like Rob has some new information.

RobV
March 30, 2013, 01:58 PM
http://www.thenedg.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/photo.jpg

...looks like my hunch was right and we are back in business.

In fact, I have been working on the design some, after talking with potential manufacturers and came up with something quite cool, although I don't wan't to say too much more about it yet.

My quest for funding has been all over the place. Lots of people are stepping up but pulling up shy of committing mainly because of the risk associated with a possible ban.

I'm about 3/4 done putting my formal proposal together now, after getting some manufacturing quotes back based on the new design, and then I'm heading back out to solicit money in earnest. I think I have the price for the prototype down to somewhere between $30-$50k, which I hope brings this project within striking distance.

I'll keep you tuned, but progress is grinding ahead every day... but there's no need to disclose everything yet, but you'll see the real significance of that BATF statement, in about a month.

texasgun
March 30, 2013, 03:22 PM
Sorry. Looks hideous and i really don't see what it does better than other products on the market.

Also: unless you get LE sales or big contracts... Good luck reaching profitability.

Angel investors generally look for high reward options... Think Facebook, twitter, Google, instagram...

texasgun
March 30, 2013, 03:41 PM
You do know that the ATF told you that you cannot have any shoulderstock on that thing?

Fixed, removable or whatever shoulderstock make it a SBR...

So you can still produce an oversized pistol, but it's not a rifle ...

joeschmoe
March 30, 2013, 03:47 PM
"If the NEDG did not incorporate a shoulder stock..."

Then it's just two pistols glued together.
Sounds like the way to make money off this is to sell you a prototype for $50k. Whoever bilks you out of your $50k for a prototype is the only one who will make money from this idea.

texasgun
March 30, 2013, 05:07 PM
^^^

Exactly my thoughts

Or: why would anyone want to buy that thing?
Without a shoulder stock this should be very hard to shoot...

But yeah... I can glue him two Glocks together for less than $50k. Rofl.

gym
March 30, 2013, 06:12 PM
I remember you being on here with this idea a couple months or so ago. Nothing has changed, the climate for investing in a firearm of any type is problematic right now. You need a risk taker. With pending legislation which may or not pertain to your particular type of invention is an even higher risk than normal. I realize you think this is a great idea, you need to find someone who is aware of the gun business on all fronts who thinks it is also, not an easy task in the current climate.
I would tend to think that in this case it is going to be a friend or family member who "if anyone" lends you the capital, it's just too risky for any VC to touch.
Personally, I don't see it being a winner. But I have been wrong before, I just don't "get it" at all.
I would much rather have 2 separate weapons or a carbine kit that already exists, than 2 guns on 1 platform, as a guy who likes all kinds of new and crazy stuff I don't see this as being sucessful

Sam Cade
March 30, 2013, 06:21 PM
Then it's just two pistols glued together.

I wonder if it will be dumber than this?

http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Dual-Attached-Full-Auto-Glocks-Holstered.jpg

Rembrandt
March 30, 2013, 06:37 PM
Wow, that's right up there with the "Thong Diaper".

http://www.patentlysilly.com/

mrvco
March 30, 2013, 07:29 PM
While I'm still not clear on the practical real-world application for this design, I can't see how this design is appealing on any level without a shoulder stock. I'd keep the stock and stick 16" barrels on it to get started.

I'd also wait on the high-dollar manufacturing prototypes and build an inexpensive prototype using wood to prove out the fit, feel and practicality. It may not have the durability of an injection molded frame, but you can offset this somewhat by using .22LR guns or Airsoft markers to prove out the concept (Airsoft being appealing because you wouldn't run afoul of BATFE if you wanted to test the SBR design)

RobV
March 31, 2013, 01:27 PM
http://www.floridadiscountguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/MODULAR-NEDG3.png

RobV
March 31, 2013, 01:35 PM
...and I have a Provisional Patent Application and a 45 page Venture Capital Proposal that goes along with that.

Sam Cade
March 31, 2013, 02:37 PM
KPOS
http://www.sfg-gear.com/testingear/KISOM_range_KPOS_SNIPOD_01.jpg

SiG
http://www.gunsandammo.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/2/files/grab-and-go-sig-sauer-adaptive-carbine-platform-review/sig-sauer-adaptive-carbine-platform_003.jpg

etc etc..

goldie
March 31, 2013, 02:53 PM
Its pretty cool,& the U.S. isnt the only place either to try to market this gun. browning went to Belgium when U.S. companies wouldnt build his product..

Sam Cade
March 31, 2013, 03:35 PM
Browning went to Belgium when U.S. companies wouldn't build his product..

After 20 years of being a successful firearms designer, Browning went to Belgium because he wanted per-unit royalty fees instead of the lump sum payments he had been receiving.

texasgun
March 31, 2013, 06:16 PM
Other is unshootable without a buttstock

Carbine rifle also exists

and the last one... it's a pistol with a rail....

RobV
April 1, 2013, 01:39 PM
>Airsoft
I'm looking into that right now. Same exact thing, different box.

>'Other' is unshootable without a buttstock
...people shoot these every day:

http://www.popguns.com/images/shotgun/tacstar45.jpg

>KPOS
Right. That is what I would build if I had more money and talent:) But as it is, you can't join two of these together to do what I want to to do... and there are no other patents on stackable modular pistol kits, other than mine, so I'm hoping if they like the idea they would consider buying the rights to what I'm working on, if for no other reason than just so no one else ends up with them, with lots more money...

But here is my point... without a tax stamp, you can't own a KPOS, with a shoulder stock, but thanks to United States v. Thompson/Center Arms Co. - 504 U.S. 505 (1992), civilians should be allowed to own ALL the pieces of MY kit - including parts that could be used to make an SBR - even if they do NOT have a tax stamp.

Normally, just being in possession of an SBR kit would constitute a punishable offense, but because the SBR law was ruled ‘ambiguous’, a rule of lenity was declared in that case, allowing defendants ‘the benefit of the doubt’ when they are caught in possession of all the pieces of a kit, which could be configured into both legal and illegal configurations.

What this means is a person could buy this unregistered, unregulated firearm accessory... and in the case of a ‘SHTF scenario’... configure it however they wanted, without any regard for the law. While this may sound absurd to many, this ‘I-could-if-I-needed-to’ perceived benefit is definitely not lost on our target audience, even though we would never suggest doing that, for obvious legal reasons. But modular designs allow consumers more options... some of them illegal, if they don't get the stamp... but if they dont want to get the stamp and not shoot it in that manner, well, then that's just one more option.

xwingband
April 1, 2013, 03:18 PM
Okay you readily admit you lack money and talent...

If you want more seriousness you need to pay for some contract work. You images are MS Paint quality and scream to me you're out of your league. Pay someone to make a 3D model, ideally an engineer so they can give you input on the makeability of details and maybe run stress simulations. If you really want to get serious money thrown in it'd go a long way. Seriously a trade school or undergrad at any school could pop out something that looks way better than what you're showing us.

Also this is not meant to offend, but you need to acknowledge this isn't new. You want a KPOS that has a front rail to attach a second gun. That's it.

joeschmoe
April 1, 2013, 03:44 PM
Normally, just being in possession of an SBR kit would constitute a punishable offense, but because the SBR law was ruled ‘ambiguous’, a rule of lenity was declared in that case, allowing defendants ‘the benefit of the doubt’ when they are caught in possession of all the pieces of a kit, which could be configured into both legal and illegal configurations.

What this means is a person could buy this unregistered, unregulated firearm accessory... and in the case of a ‘SHTF scenario’... configure it however they wanted, without any regard for the law. While this may sound absurd to many, this ‘I-could-if-I-needed-to’ perceived benefit is definitely not lost on our target audience, even though we would never suggest doing that, for obvious legal reasons. But modular designs allow consumers more options... some of them illegal, if they don't get the stamp... but if they dont want to get the stamp and not shoot it in that manner, well, then that's just one more option.


, even though we would never suggest doing that, for obvious legal reasons.

But you did just suggest that. You just demonstrated intent. Welcome to Criminal Conspiracy 101. Next stop... club fed.

silicosys4
April 1, 2013, 03:45 PM
[B]>

What this means is a person could buy this unregistered, unregulated firearm accessory... and in the case of a ‘SHTF scenario’... configure it however they wanted, without any regard for the law. While this may sound absurd to many, this ‘I-could-if-I-needed-to’ perceived benefit is definitely not lost on our target audience, even though we would never suggest doing that, for obvious legal reasons. But modular designs allow consumers more options... some of them illegal, if they don't get the stamp... but if they dont want to get the stamp and not shoot it in that manner, well, then that's just one more option.

You are narrowing your market down more and more, until you have been forced to admit you are chasing a primarily mall ninja/preppers crowd only, with a product that cannot be legally used for its intended purpose. At this point my suggestion would be for you to take another look at the market potential of your idea, and how other companies that have marketed similar versions of your idea are selling them.

More to the point, you have failed to explain to me the benefits such a product would hold to sufficiently, at least to me. It looks cumbersome, and I fail to see the utility in this product over training yourself to perform magazine changes quickly, or carrying a NY reload.

texasgun
April 1, 2013, 03:58 PM
So your target audience are some preppers who are willing to violate ATF rules. Great market. Sorry.. Your business idea gets dumber by the minute.

P.s. You can already buy shoulder stock kits for Glocks. Heck...even Amazon sells them.

Sam Cade
April 1, 2013, 05:00 PM
...
But here is my point... without a tax stamp, you can't own a KPOS, with a shoulder stock, but thanks to United States v. Thompson/Center Arms Co. - 504 U.S. 505 (1992), civilians should be allowed to own ALL the pieces of MY kit - including parts that could be used to make an SBR - even if they do NOT have a tax stamp.

Whut?

A KPOS is NOT a firearm and does not require a tax stamp to own and can be purchased without restriction.

http://www.amazon.com/KPOS-G1-Glock-Conversion-Defense/dp/B007J8IRE2

Mounting with the stock attached would require that the pistol it is being mounted on to be SBR'd.

joeschmoe
April 1, 2013, 05:26 PM
Without a SBR tax stamp or a 16" barrel already in your possession, that kit has felony written all over it. Shame on Amazon for selling that junk without a even a warning that you need a $200 tax stamp/registration or 16" barrel to make it legal.

US v Thompson case hinged on the fact that their kit included the stock AND a 16" barrel togther. That KPOS kit does not include the 16" barrel. It does not get the same exception as US v Thompson. It's an unregistered illegal SBR (if you posses the gun to mount it on).

Sam Cade
April 1, 2013, 06:04 PM
It's an unregistered illegal SBR (if you posses the gun to mount it on).

Nope. :scrutiny:

By that logic anyone who owns a Charger pistol and an extra 10/22 stock is in trouble.

joeschmoe
April 1, 2013, 07:32 PM
If there is no configuration in which it that stock can be assembled legally, then yeah, it's constructive possession. You'd better have a 16" barrel somewhere to go with that stock or it's an unregistered SBR.

. ATF Ruling 2011-4.pdf

In summary the ATF made the following findings.

Held, a firearm, as defined by the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), is made when un-assembled parts are placed in close proximity in such a way that they:

(a) Serve no useful purpose other than to make a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length (e.g., a receiver, an attachable shoulder stock, and barrel of less than 16 inches in length); or
(b) Convert a complete weapon into such an NFA firearm, including - (1) A pistol and attachable shoulder stock; and (2) A rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and an attachable barrel of less than 16 inches in length.


Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all requirements of the NFA.

Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when parts in a kit that were originally designed to be configured as both a pistol and a rifle are assembled or re-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length).

Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when a pistol is attached to a part or parts designed to convert the pistol into a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and the parts are later un-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol).

http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/atf/


Florida Man Arrested for Constructive Possession of an SBR
http://blog.princelaw.com/2009/09/01/florida-man-arrested-for-constructive-possession-of-an-sbr/

Sam Cade
April 1, 2013, 08:26 PM
http://blog.princelaw.com/2009/09/01/florida-man-arrested-for-constructive-possession-of-an-sbr/

...and the disposition was what?:scrutiny:




You'd better have a 16" barrel somewhere to go with that stock or it's an unregistered SBR

Charger pistol and an extra 10/22 stock...

Railed pistol and an extra VFG in your range bag...

Sig P556 and an extra M4 stock...

"Constructive possession" is a slippery slope.

gym
April 1, 2013, 09:04 PM
How about a glock 34, or a 17L, with a nice red dot on it, and call it a day, I don't think you need any more do dads than that. The rest looks like a mall ninja to me, heck If you want a rifle just buy a rifle or a carbine. Those long barreled glocks are pretty darn accurate to me.

texasgun
April 1, 2013, 10:23 PM
this thread is too funny...

"inventor": "look at my great idea!!!"

forum: "mmmh... ok... what's the purpose?"

"inventor": "it's good for this and that and look at my design drafts!"

forum: "dude... that's a SBR!"

"inventor": "no - it's not!!"

forum: "yes it is!"

"inventor": "look at the ATF letter!"

forum: "so it is a SBR..."

"inventor": "but only with the shoulder stock!"

forum: "ok... but without a shoulder stock your innovation doesn't make sense...."

"inventor" : "I'm gonna sell it as a kit so people can build their own SBR and break the law"


... comedy gold....

RobV
April 2, 2013, 04:04 PM
>texasgun
No, actually I think you said you cant shoot it without a stock and I showed you that a Mossberg Persuader (which you refused to acknowledge) is held exactly the same way - which pretty much negates your point, in my opinion.

...but hey, haters are going to hate. I came in here excited to share with you what I thought was somthing cool and to ask advice, and I got it. Thank you. I will take your thoughts into consideration moving forward.

joeschmoe
April 2, 2013, 04:19 PM
Yet we are your target audience and you're not getting a positive response.

Allowing both of the operator’s hands to manipulate a single longer firearm, instead of two short ones

Do you not know you can't add a forward grip to a pistol for exactly that reason? That makes it an AOW (Any Other Weapon). A different NFA item also requiring a tax stamp/registration.

a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).

ATF has long held that by installing a vertical fore grip on a handgun, the handgun is no longer designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand. Therefore, if individuals install a vertical fore grip on a handgun, they are “making” a firearm requiring registration with ATF’s NFA Branch. Making an unregistered “AOW” is punishable by a fine and 10 years’ imprisonment

http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2006/04/041006-openletter-nfa-adding-vertical-fore-grip.html

Highland Ranger
April 2, 2013, 04:24 PM
Quickest root to 100K would be to go sell some.

Prove that there is a market.

joeschmoe
April 2, 2013, 04:47 PM
Notice in the letter is says "some other type of firearm"? They mean an AOW. Your kit will have two include 16" barrels for each pistol or it's an SBR kit and considered an unregistered firearm by itself.

Your stated goals of attempting to "side step" and provide for illegal use are proof of your "intent" to assist others in a felony. If/when someone actually does it, you are already a conspirator in that crime. That's serious legal do-do for you. If you actually produced this and someone does those things your are legally tied to them because of these posts. Your only way out is to never sell it to the public.

You need to speak to a firearms lawyer before you do anything else. I'm pretty sure he will say your posts here have already permanently sunk your boat.

A Modular NEDG Conversion kit = (1) Rifle Kit + (1) Pistol Kit.
The ‘rifle kit’ includes (1) stock, (1) receiver, (1) free flow barrel, and (1) barrel cap. The ‘pistol kit’ includes only the receiver and barrel cap. However, if both the rifle kit and the pistol kit are joined together, the resulting weapon forms a short-barreled NEDG rifle (or ‘SBR’) WHICH REQUIRES A FEDERAL TAX STAMP. At this point, the stock must be removed to avoid being in violation of the law. Luckily much of the double gun functionality remains largely unchanged and the resulting NEDG can potentially be fired:

1.) More accurately than either of the firearms that comprise it, whether ‘carefully aimed’, using the sighting apparatus (and possibly a shoulder stock) or ‘quickly pointed’ and fired ‘from the hip’ (as one might fire a double barreled shotgun or a fully automatic rifle).
2.) In a manner which is safer than shooting two firearms at once, and…
3.) ‘Immediately and without hesitation’ - even if the operator is in the process of reloading the unit (something not normally possible with any other conventional automatic or semi-automatic firearm).

The ‘unable to fire while reloading’ flaw inherent in other designs:
What makes this weapon different than other conventional firearms is that the forward grip of a NEDG serves not only as an additional grip, but is also capable of triggering a bullet to be fired. This is a critical distinction, as it solves a key and inherent flaw in the ‘load-chamber/cock-fire-reload’ cycle common among most semi and fully automatic firearms.

Normally, when an operator is firing two handguns, for example, the operator will inevitably run both firearms empty, or just one of firearms empty, and need to reload the weapon(s) again before it (/they) become(s) useful again. This normally forces the operator into the position where they may have to put down/stow their only loaded firearm, and ‘take the loaded firearm off the target’, in order to ‘free up a hand’, so as to have one available to reload their empty weapon.

This ‘unable to fire while reloading’ flaw is seen in virtually every handheld semi or full automatic firearm used today, and it leaves the operator temporarily (but completely) defenseless, unable to return fire (in Military/Law Enforcement situations) in a potentially life threatening situation, when there actually was no need to be, because the operator was in possession of a loaded weapon, but was unable to make use of it, because it is not possible to operate the loaded firearm and reload the empty firearm, at the same time.

How kits improve accuracy:
The invention also enhances the operator’s accuracy, when firing two firearms by:

• Allowing both of the operator’s hands to manipulate a single longer firearm, instead of two short ones, which results in greater shooter stability and ultimately better accuracy, even ‘from the hip’. In the case of the free-fired firearm, even though the firearm is not braced, a longer firearm is naturally easier to point accurately, the longer its overall length, even if the barrel of the firearm is not lengthened.

• Providing a safe and sturdy platform, suited to adding a butt stock. By giving the operator the ability to add a shoulder stock, the firearm is easier to aim without wavering.

• Providing a safe and sturdy platform, suited to adding a adding a single scope (or single set of sights) that can be used for firing either one (or both) of the firearms, without the need for a second scope (or second set of sights) to aim and fire the other firearm.

Shooting a NEDG is safer than shooting 2 pistols at once
NEDGs enhance the safety of:
• Other people and property, by ensuring both barrels stay generally focused on the same target, and one firearm cannot errantly discharge in an unintended direction, due to an accidental, reckless, or negligent discharge.
• The operator, by ensuring they don’t inadvertently shoot themselves when shooting 2 firearms simultaneously or in close proximity in time and distance to each other.
• The firearms, by ensuring the operator can’t inadvertently shoot one of the firearms with the other firearm, when shooting 2 firearms simultaneously or in close proximity to each other.

Consumer Selling Points:
The redundant design ensures reliability and that its operator is always able to fire the unit, even if they are in the middle of a process (such as reloading or clearing a jam) that would render the operator of a conventional firearm defenseless and vulnerable. A ‘double gun’ has two completely redundant and independent firing assemblies, which translates into increased reliability, since a problem with one of the firing assemblies would have no bearing on the other one being able to fire, greatly reducing the chances of an operator being unable to fire the weapon at a critical moment.

By removing the stock, we eloquently sidestepped the Short Barrel Rifle (SBR) laws, which would have prevented civilians from owning a NEDG unless they also got a Federal tax stamp. Thanks to United States v. Thompson/Center Arms Co. - 504 U.S. 505 (1992), civilians should be allowed to own ALL the pieces of the kit - including parts that could be used to make an SBR - even if they do NOT have a tax stamp.

Normally just being in possession of an SBR kit would constitute a punishable offense, but because the SBR law was ruled ‘ambiguous’, a rule of lenity was declared in that case, allowing defendants ‘the benefit of the doubt’ when they are caught in possession of all the pieces of a kit, which could be configured into both legal and illegal configurations.
What this means is a person could buy this unregistered, unregulated firearm accessory, and in the case of a ‘SHTF scenario’, configure it however they wanted, without any regard for the law. While this may sound absurd to many, this ‘I-could-if-I-needed-to’ perceived benefit is definitely not lost on our target audience, and is actually one of its strongest selling points.


It’s a ‘ban-buster’ - the new high capacity bans coming out do not take into account that a weapon could have more than one magazine, which means a NEDG offers those with smaller capacity (post ban) magazines twice the legal limit, and those with pre-ban magazines at least 4X the capacity… making a NEDG even more attractive had these bans not gone into place.

A NEDG is capable of producing overwhelming firepower. A NEDG holds twice the amount of bullets a conventional firearm carries, ready to fire. While ‘overwhelming’ is a subjective and relative term, a firearm with twice the firepower is at least a clear step in the right direction toward that goal.

A combatant armed with a NEDG is more likely to survive a firefight than if they were armed with a conventional weapon. We maintain combatants will live longer if they always have a loaded weapon in their hand that is always ready to be fired immediately and repeatedly, without hesitation, than if they did not have access to such a weapon. While we have no figures to support this claim, we believe there is a percentage of battlefield casualties that can be attributed to jams and running out of bullets at inopportune moments in battle, and we believe our NEDG design could reduce this number.

A NEDG is easier to use in a panic situation. ‘Easier’ is a subjective term, but we maintain a double gun is not twice as complex as a conventional rifle, even though it has twice the firepower. To us, 'easier' means shooting ‘more’ and reloading ‘half as often’ - and if any question or confusion arises, pointing the weapon at the enemy and pulling both triggers.

A NEDG is more lethal. On an individual case basis, a combatant could shoot two bullets at once at the enemy, causing twice the damage, with twice the knockdown power. And at a greater theoretical level, if a team of combatants is never defenseless during reloading… and carries twice the bullets ready to fire in their weapons than they normally do… with less chances of malfunctions due to a NEDG’s redundant design - that team would be, by definition, ‘more lethal’.

A NEDG is able to extend and add new battlefield capabilities to equipment already in the inventory. In short, the NEDG has new and additional functionality - functionality that goes beyond what can be achieved using two firearms individually (one at a time) or at the same time (one in each hand). That's because the question is not actually a question of how many firearms the operator can with them at one time, it's a question of how many hands the operator needs to reload a magazine of an empty gun, while still holding a fully loaded firearm aimed at the target. And the answer to that question, up to now, is it has always taken three or more hands… but now, if the operator is holding a NEDG, they only need two, and we believe this difference could potentially change things on the battlefield.

RobV
April 2, 2013, 06:21 PM
There is no need to reference another letter from the BATF, when the BATF already told me how they classified my invention, and I posted that.

As far as configuring it as an SBR... with or without a tax stamp... I already said "even though we would never suggest doing that, for obvious legal reasons. But modular designs allow consumers more options... some of them illegal, if they don't get the stamp... but if they dont want to get the stamp and not shoot it in that manner, well, then that's just one more option." I'm merely stating a fact that someone might improperly use the product in an illegal configuration --not that I am encouraging them to do so. If I sell the item, I will include clear instructions NOT to configure it in an illegal configuration, obviously, I'm actually thinking about engraving it on the gun.

The idea is to sell the entire kit so people can get the stamps they need to do whatever they want. If it wasn't for the Thompson Case, I couldn't sell the kit at all, even if the person only wanted the variants which do not require tax stamps.

joeschmoe
April 2, 2013, 06:55 PM
They said it would be "some other type of firearm". The letter I posted tells you why it will be an AOW NFA firearm. With a stock and no 16" barrel it will also be an SBR. Either way, it's an NFA. Go ahead and build/submit your prototype and then you will find out if it's an NFA. Don't act surprised when that is what they tell you. You'd better have an SOT build it for you, or they can prosecute you for the single prototype you build and submit.

2 big difference between you and Thompson; 1) their kit included a 16" barrel, 2)They never suggested using it illegally as you have done in this thread. Additionally they had to fight a long legal battle to get acceptance and prove they were legit. You're starting off on the wrong foot by claiming there is a loop hole and suggesting the end user can break the law.
One thing you will have in common, is lots of money spent on lawyers. Better do it now before the ATF charges you with something.

So far you've proven you know nothing about firearms laws or business. You have repeatedly suggested how people can break federal law. I don't see how this will never make it to market. I predict another lock coming to this thread.

Sam1911
April 2, 2013, 07:16 PM
Enough. This obviously needs a whole lot more, very careful, investigation before anyone gets themselves tangled up with it.

Frank Ettin
April 2, 2013, 10:19 PM
The OP has questioned some of the legal interpretations offered by various folks and asked that this thread not be closed on incorrect information. So here's my take as a lawyer on things:

I am not going to offer an opinion as to whether or to what extent or under what circumstances the OP's design (the NEDG) might raise issues under the National Firearms Act of 1934 (NFA). It appears that the NEDG can be configured in multiple ways, and a variety of those ways have been discussed in the thread. Some possible configurations appear to be classifiable as a short barrel rifle or Any Other Weapon for NFA purposes.


But too many possible configurations have been discussed as well as the possibility of the NEDG being configurable by the user. So the NFA status of the NEDG is something of a moving target.


I note that the OP apparently received a letter from the ATF which he believes clears things up, but he has not produced the entire letter for our review. He has only posted a small, scanned portion. And in that portion, the ATF writes:...We reiterate, however, that in order to make an official classification, an actual finished sample would need to be submitted to FTB for evaluation....


Complying with the NFA (as well as complying with all other relevant laws, including laws relating to soliciting investments) is the OP's problem. There is no reason to in any possible way risk making it THR's problem by either offering further comment or keeping this thread open.

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