Material to put in walls to reduce penetration


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Fryerpower
February 15, 2013, 11:58 AM
I searched and could not find a thread on this. What could be put in between the sheets of dry wall that make up the interior of my house to reduce the probability of .223 type ammo from penetrating? I'm looking for something that you could flow into place and then allow to set up or harden in the walls.

Cement is probably WAY too heavy. I don't see minimal expanding foam really doing much to stop a round.

I probably have 3/8 inch drywall on both sides of standard 2x4 on 16 inch center walls right now.

On a side note, I would love it if whatever was done also reduced everyday noise. :)

Any ideas?

I think I have some scrap drywall in the shed. Maybe I'll make a sample wall and fill it with minimal expanding foam just to see how it does.
http://www.amazon.com/Red-Devil-0913-Expanding-Polyurethane/dp/B000NHPS3O/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1360947596&sr=8-1&keywords=minimal+expanding+foam

Ooh! Home made ballistic foam! :rolleyes:

http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/559019/647544.html?1227963872

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_foam


Jim

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CoRoMo
February 15, 2013, 11:59 AM
Sand

Solo
February 15, 2013, 12:00 PM
Use lead. As a bonus, it will also insulate and block harmful gamma radiation.

Fryerpower
February 15, 2013, 12:03 PM
Sand and lead...weight a ton! :)

rcmodel
February 15, 2013, 12:05 PM
Nothing that I can think of that wouldn't be so heavy like sand it would blow the sheetrock off the walls just from the weight & outward pressure on the walls.

I do know expanding foam will not help any.

Ground up tire rubber might help a little, but not enough to make much difference.
And it would be a hell of a fire hazard if it ever caught on fire inside the wall.

rc

Fryerpower
February 15, 2013, 12:07 PM
Yep, I'm really not expecting to find anything that will work, but you can never tell what will come up when a diverse group of people get together and toss out ideas.

Jim

CoRoMo
February 15, 2013, 12:08 PM
Sand and lead...weight a ton!
If you want bullet-proof, you'll want heavy.

Sam1911
February 15, 2013, 12:08 PM
You almost certainly have 1/2" drywall on your walls, not 3/8".

Be VERY careful pouring anything into the wall cavities. It is surprisingly easy to blow the drywall right off the walls from just a little weight and/or pressure.

This does not sound like an exercise likely to meet with success.

If you want a very localized area of protection there are ways you could accomplish the effect you want, but they'll require some demo and carpentry to accomplish. If you're thinking of doing a whole house, probably forget it.

curlymaple42
February 15, 2013, 12:11 PM
Kevlar wall hangings! Lol! Like quilts with kevlar sewn in the batting.

Sent from my DROID RAZR

Greg528iT
February 15, 2013, 12:19 PM
Kevlar wall hangings! Lol! Like quilts with kevlar sewn in the batting.

plus 1

OR.. sheets of kevlar tacked up before the sheet rock goes up.. Like they cover the outside of the house with Tyvek (sic) moisture barrier on the outside.

Nwflycaster
February 15, 2013, 12:21 PM
Are you wanting soundproofing or bulletproofing. If you're talking everyday noise you can install some sheet lead to fix that. Do you live in a heavy gang area and are concerned about penetration from the outside? or are you turning your livingroom into a range. I don't know if you can purchase such a thing, but is there some kind of kevlar sheeting that can be hung between the studs. As others have stated I can't imagine that something heavy like sand wouldn't push the sheet rock right through the screws.

Fryerpower
February 15, 2013, 12:22 PM
You almost certainly have 1/2" drywall on your walls, not 3/8".
I thought it was 1/4, 3/8, and 1/2 for the three general choices. Maybe it is 3/8, 1/2, and 5/8 for the three choices. 1/2" would be better for sure.


Be VERY careful pouring anything into the wall cavities. It is surprisingly easy to blow the drywall right off the walls from just a little weight and/or pressure.
At this point I am looking at minimally expanding foam with fiberglass filler. The fill and dry/setup period would be the one to worry about. Once it has set up it should be fine. I'll test with fake walls to see if I can get anything to even help in the first place. Then I will start VERY SMALL and try filling one void between a pair of 2x4s in a wall. Clearly some of the early, not in house testing will have to include just how much the foam expands. I see no reason to fill the upstairs walls any higher than 6 feet or so.

This does not sound like an exercise likely to meet with success.

Yep, but isn't that how all ideas start? Failures are nothing more than successful examples of how not to do it.

I guess the next logical question is will .223 go through my internal floors... Much harder problem to fix. 1/2 inch drywall, 1/2 inch particle board, pad and carpet protecting upstairs from down.

Jim

Nwflycaster
February 15, 2013, 12:22 PM
Someone beet me to it. The above two posts happened while I was typing.

beatledog7
February 15, 2013, 12:23 PM
All the materials engineers are getting to work on this. One of them's gonna be exceptionally wealthy some day.

Fryerpower
February 15, 2013, 12:26 PM
Nice neighbor hood, not worried about rounds coming in from the outside. More worried about my rounds accidentially going through a wall into my kids rooms, and someone shooting at me and the round missing and going into the kids rooms. My rounds could very well be in the .223 range. I would not expect that from someone coming in. Most likely handgun rounds.

Retro, not new construction. Internal to the drywall, no wall hangings...

Going down the foam/fiber route for now.

Jim

Schutzen
February 15, 2013, 12:34 PM
There is no good way to retro fit. Economically the cheapest thing is double layers of dry wall. The down side is it only minimally increases the effectiveness. The best shot is it slows down projectiles to the point they cause less damage when they hit someone/something. I have one room with 2 layers of 5/8” drywall on each side. This was done as a fire stop, but 1 ” of dry wall is a fair amount to slow a bullet down.

Greg528iT
February 15, 2013, 12:34 PM
How about a shotgun for home defense instead of a .223? Pick you pellet size accordingly.

1/4" sheet rock is available, just generally for double layers in arches or repair panels. Some building codes require 5/8" rock for fire stops between garages and homes or between duplexes.. I'd hang that..

Sam1911
February 15, 2013, 12:39 PM
I thought it was 1/4, 3/8, and 1/2 for the three general choices. Maybe it is 3/8, 1/2, and 5/8 for the three choices. 1/2" would be better for sure.3/8 for ceilings sometimes, 1/2" for walls, 5/8" for fire rating.

At this point I am looking at minimally expanding foam with fiberglass filler. The fill and dry/setup period would be the one to worry about. Once it has set up it should be fine.Right. An engineer, and father of a friend, blew all the sheetrock off the walls of a room he was working on doing something very similar to this. He thought he'd found a better way to insulate, and it turns out he found a great way to make an enormous mess and do a lot of damage.


Then I will start VERY SMALL and try filling one void between a pair of 2x4s in a wall. Clearly some of the early, not in house testing will have to include just how much the foam expands. I see no reason to fill the upstairs walls any higher than 6 feet or so.The problem isn't necessarily only of total volume, but the fact that the stuff wants to expand in all directions, and may (will) set up at the most exposed top of the cavity first, while the pressure below tends to increase. If the resistance of the sheetrock becomes less than the resistance of the column of semi-hardened foam above...whoops.

FWIW, I've filled things with foam and shot them. It made no difference AT ALL. None. Nada.

I guess the next logical question is will .223 go through my internal floors... Much harder problem to fix. 1/2 inch drywall, 1/2 inch particle board, pad and carpet protecting upstairs from down.3/8" (maybe 1/2") drywall, 3/4" OSB subfloor, pad, carpet.

Yes, hard to change that.

...

You know, an easier fix to the walls -- at least in localized areas -- would be to remove a section of sheetrock and stack bricks inside, then close it back up. Pretty likely to stop a stray round or two. Not messy or pressure-inducing like concrete, sand, gravel.

And would be effective, where as foam is going to do absolutely nothing whatsoever to stop a bullet.

Nothing.

Lo-Fi
February 15, 2013, 12:40 PM
http://www.armortex.com/Composite.html

Been lurking for too long.
Armortex is the stuff to use. Need to put it under the drywall though.

gym
February 15, 2013, 12:45 PM
That looks good, i knew there had to be something like a kevelar type flexable material that you could use. It will get very expensive to do it, and probablly should be installed when the home is being built.

Naybor
February 15, 2013, 12:50 PM
Boy, that .223 round going at around 3200 fps is gonna be hard to stop.

There is a bullet called "frangible" which means it disintegrates when it hits something may be part of the answer.

I had a .223 in the past but settled on a 12 ga pump and used:

1st shell #6 or 7 1/2 shot
2nd Shell: #4 shot
Rest: #2 Buckshot

This may be overthinking the situation, but in my case it was what it was.

Right now, I'm using a 12 Ga double barrel with 00 or #2 Buck.

Lo-Fi
February 15, 2013, 12:54 PM
About $500 a sheet. Just priced out 80 sheets on a job last week.

That was Level 3 though.

The Teacher
February 15, 2013, 12:56 PM
How about some ArmorCore?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=j7RJmuSEMlY

col.lemat
February 15, 2013, 12:57 PM
1/2 inch boiler plate for the doors, knock out the walls and replace with river rock and cement

Shadow 7D
February 15, 2013, 01:00 PM
the PRICE is rather expensive for panels and they are a technical produce, as in, NOT a DIY project...


Now, to help, a single room, cinder block and wonderboard
better than NOTHING, but....
Also ceramic tile, but a tile is ONLY GOOD FOR ONE SHOT....

mac tm
February 15, 2013, 01:03 PM
What about plaster instead of drywall?

ATLDave
February 15, 2013, 01:08 PM
Ceramic tile - especially a couple of layers with space in between them (perhaps the inside of drywall on either side of the wall - might do something.

Sam1911
February 15, 2013, 01:25 PM
Plaster is generally a bit tougher than drywall, but there's many different wall compositions that would be all called "plaster."

The best would be a heavy, multi-coat plaster job over wooden lath (preferably split oak lath), and that in sound shape. But there's also forms of plaster applied over some old types of wallboard which wouldn't be as good.

Then there's the old style masonry "plaster" used as a base for tile in victorian and early 20th century bathrooms. Sometimes that adds to nearly 2" of hard, Portland-based, cement material which would indeed at least deflect many projectiles.

Strange Bob
February 15, 2013, 01:26 PM
OK, my idea. Can go 2 ways, can strip the existing sheetrock or just over lay it with 3/4" plywood then fill the voids with dry sand. e another 2" of material + sand. A second layer of sheetrock could then be screwed to the plywood. This would result in a wall that could contain the sand and would havOf course all your outlet boxes will need to be sealed very well and I would lower them to near floor level (in case of a direct hit on that area the trajectory would have to be almost on the floor. This is reasonably inexpensive.

I saw somewhere on an article on the internet (must be true) where a guy was testing
penetration through sand filled dry wall panels using a 2x6. A single layer of sand filled drywall panels stopped almost all rounds. The original test was discussing sandbag effectiveness.

OK, quick search and here it is: http://www.naturalbuildingblog.com/bullet-resistance-of-sandbags/

ediogenes
February 15, 2013, 01:28 PM
5.56 mm ammo, especially the current military rounds with the steel core, is intended to go through stuff like walls, car sheet metal, and anything else a bad guy might hide behind. A modern military rifle is a horrible HD weapon if you're concerned about overpenetration. You're better off choosing something with less penetrating ability, such as a shotgun loaded with standard bird shot (#8 or #9, no magnums). But you still have to attend to safety rule #4.

Skylerbone
February 15, 2013, 01:37 PM
6' X 3' Lexan panels are commonly available at home centers for about $100/sheet. Remove the drywall, cut some 2X4s to ~14" and glue thin edge to edge. (in the garage with clamps) to 7' and let dry. Bring your wooden walls in and install between studs with a few short nails, cover the wall in Lexan and hang drywall.

Certaindeaf
February 15, 2013, 01:43 PM
Some people utilize those shipping containers. If you sunk one of those into fifty yards of granite.. well, I'd laugh at you.

Certaindeaf
February 15, 2013, 01:46 PM
5.56 mm ammo, especially the current military rounds with the steel core, is intended to go through stuff like walls, car sheet metal, and anything else a bad guy might hide behind. A modern military rifle is a horrible HD weapon if you're concerned about overpenetration. You're better off choosing something with less penetrating ability, such as a shotgun loaded with standard bird shot (#8 or #9, no magnums). But you still have to attend to safety rule #4.
Well, you got that wrong. Any normal pistol round penetrates more than 55gr ball.

Fryerpower
February 15, 2013, 01:47 PM
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm

Clearly 5.56/.223 is not going to be stopped by something you just pour into the wall, short of fibercrete with steel reenforcements.

Maybe I should dial it back to 9mm JHP or FMJ. Something that I am more likely to see coming at me. I am already loaded up with 9mm frangeables, but I doubt someone coming in would be so considerate.

Jim

gym
February 15, 2013, 01:56 PM
You still need to worry about doors and windows, Glass is tough in modern FL homes, as each room has at least 1-3 windows, and putting in 20 plus bullet proof windows and sliders is an expensive proposition. I would concentrate on the exterior walls, and bed rooms. But I never bothered past the thought phase because of the windows, there is no place you are safe that has no window access other than a couple of the bathrooms, even the master has windows floor to ceiling, so anyone who really wanted to could shoot anyone inside just by waiting for them to walk from room to room.
3M makes a foil that I had in one of my cars, I looked it up recentely and it's made to withstand a couple good swings with a sledge hammer. It also is somwhat bullet resistant. My nephew had it done to his house.
I never tested it but that is the most practicle stuff I saw for windows. When I bought a Vette years ago, they had a display in the showroom, with a window and a hammer. You couldn't break the window, if you eventually did it would take so long to get through and make so much noise, that it would deter most. It came on the car as a special they were running with chevy. Google it, it may be the best way to have some protetion from handgun ammo.
There is a lot of stuff out there, here are 2 links I found for walls and glass.
http://www.pimall.com/nais/bulletprooffilm.html
http://www.usbulletproofing.com/USBPProductarmor.htm

Fryerpower
February 15, 2013, 01:58 PM
Not worried about rounds coming in from the street. I'm worried about crossfire inside of the house.

Jim

Teachu2
February 15, 2013, 01:59 PM
You could add two layers of 1 1/8" SturdiFloor (T&G plywood) to one side and then drywall. Surface- mount the electrical to avoid voids.

Or use 3/4" on both sides, fill with concrete, drywall.

Or build a concrete block wall against the existing one, fill with mortar, and build a conventional wall against that. Costs you about 9" of space.

Or you could move into a poured-in-place concrete home. These, while not real common, offer tremendous energy savings.

Heavy dressers around the child's bed offer some protection without the expense and disruption of demolition.

If penetration is that big a worry, a 12ga with #4 buck is a great choice.

Finally, having raised kids, this should be pretty low on your list of worries. There are many more common disasters to fret over in your future. :uhoh:

mrnic3guy1989
February 15, 2013, 02:26 PM
Why?

Certaindeaf
February 15, 2013, 02:37 PM
Dirty Harry hates the childerns.

mrnic3guy1989
February 15, 2013, 02:42 PM
Certaindeaf: I love the "Sent from my computer using my fingers" tag that is thee best i have seen thus far.

Skylerbone
February 15, 2013, 02:43 PM
2 7' 2Xs and a 2' square sheet will run you less than $25 to test. That's drywall, 1 3/4" of wooden stud, 1/8" or 1/4" Lexan and another layer of Sheetrock.

Worried about the floor? Lexan, vapor barrier, laminate or hardwood and a nice room-size wool rug.

Arp32
February 15, 2013, 02:52 PM
By far the cheapest and most efficient way to build up mass is to add more compressed gypsum dust panels (I.e., more drywall). Go watch the Box o' Truth to see how many layers you feel comfortable with, and start screwing them up. 5/8" gyp board is heavy, so bring a friend. Also remember you'll have to either extend your electrical boxes or remount them.

Teachu2
February 15, 2013, 03:14 PM
And there may come a day you wish you can hear what the kids are doing at night...

Fryerpower
February 15, 2013, 03:19 PM
@Arp32, Box o truth, see post 34.
@Skylerbone, building test boxes, see post number 1.

It might just be easier to pull the drywall and fill the gaps with 2x4s, 4x4s, stacked plywood, or a combination of all of these, and then put up new drywall. Most of the places that have tested penetration state that the framing material is enough to stop a .223.

Jim

Fryerpower
February 15, 2013, 03:20 PM
And there may come a day you wish you can hear what the kids are doing at night...
That one is out of the house, and I'm not sure I want to hear boys in their rooms by themselves. No girls in the room unless the door is open solves the other noise I would be worried about.

Jim

Certaindeaf
February 15, 2013, 03:31 PM
I just carry a length of 2x4 in my back pocket for just such occasions. You want to squint a bit though lest wood shards spear your eyeball.

22-rimfire
February 15, 2013, 03:45 PM
New house with walls backfilled with dirt and bullet proof glass. Of course that creates humidity issues, but they are addressable.

Arp32
February 15, 2013, 03:53 PM
@Arp32, Box o truth, see post 34.
Jim

I have. Didn't say add one layer, said keep adding layers! Don't have Excel handy but I can almost guarantee adding drywall is going to be cheaper and easier than building a "solid" 2x4 wall. Plus you'll get and excellent fire rating and STC rating.

The Lexan sandwich sounds great until you price Lexan, or try and cut out J-boxes or hang pictures. Plus depending on how the assembly is put together, you may be creating vapor barrier issues.

Skribs
February 15, 2013, 04:22 PM
I know this thread has to do with the walls themselves, but since we've started talking about projectile selection and drywall penetration...

Rounds which will not go far through drywall will go less far through a human target, making them very bad attack stoppers.
Look at most sources which do testing of terminal ballistics after drywall, and you will find it has more effect on the lethality of rifle rounds than shotgun pellets, unless the pellets are really light. If overpenetration in the house is your primary concern, the .223 is probably your best bet. It will still be very dangerous.

Fryerpower
February 15, 2013, 04:34 PM
It would take two 4x8 sheets of dry wall to get 6-7 layers in the air gap.
14.5 inches between studs, 3x14.5 = 43.5 , That leaves a 4.5 inch strip from each 4x8 sheet. You would get 6 good layers plus some partial coverage from the two 4.5 inch strips that make up the 7th layer.
Call it 6 layers in the gap plus two on the walls. That makes the equivalent of four walls. The round on the Box of Truth went through four walls.

To get better than that I would have to do like you suggested and add extra layers to the walls.

Two rows deep of 2x6, 2x6, and 2x4 would cover the 14.5 inch space. Arrange them so that the seams do not line up.

2x6, 2x6, 2x4
2x4, 2x6, 2x6

Throw in one layer of drywall and you will completely fill the void.

6 ft high is plenty.

Put a ceramic plate behind the switch plates and power plugs.

You can use the old drywall you remove to open up the wall as part of the filler and put new drywall up once you are done.

Only a couple of walls, heck even parts of walls, need to be done like this.

Sure would be much easier if you just build a new house the way you like it!

Jim

Trent
February 15, 2013, 04:42 PM
When the FBI built their offices in Peoria, the floor they're on in the Technology Plaza building was shared with an Internet company I worked with; knew several of the guys there.

When building their office, the FBI hung bullet resistant ballistic panels, in place of sheet rock. Literally every wall in that office (exterior hallway and interior office walls) would stop a 44 magnum round.

Oh if only I had that sort of money to blow.

Oh wait, I did!

Then they took it from me in the form of taxes.

:(

desidog
February 15, 2013, 04:54 PM
As an architect; I have to say this would be a huge waste of time and money. It is a science to design a hardened facility, and to try to retrofit an existing house will lead to an unsuitable result, and a lot of consternation in the meanwhile.

For instance, your houses' foundation and footings were designed to hold up the house, not walls full of sand. Likewise, if you put a bunch of stuff in there you'll likely have moisture issues.

Your time will probably be better spent looking at entry points to the building, and making it harder for people who aren't welcome.

Arp32
February 15, 2013, 05:25 PM
As an architect; I have to say this would be a huge waste of time and money.

Oh come on, we passed 'reasonable' a long time ago!

JERRY
February 15, 2013, 05:37 PM
how about good old fashioed bricks? theyre still used to build houses (not the fake vanier facing but real brick and mortar.

hueyville
February 15, 2013, 05:49 PM
Half a dozen companies make a fiberglass composite material that is NIJ rated like bullet proof vests. The front of my house has it. When I remodeled my house built post WWII, we pulled the sheet rock, purchased panels pre-slit to width to fit between studs. We also had the studs sprayed with a material that made them rot and fire resistant. Them put insulation and used fire resistant sheet rock to finish out the walls. Then we bricked up to the bottom of the window sills. I purchased doors rated for hurricanes and forced entry with an level 2a NIJ rating. I took out my storm windows and overlay-ed them with this: http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Window_Film/Solutions/Markets-Products/Commercial/Safety-Security_Window_Films/ It brings your windows to hurricane debris rating and then we added a center storm window made from UV stabilized 1/4" lexan. Our windows will stop a standard velocity 38 secial and our doors a standard velocity 9mm. The walls stop up to 357 mag above the window sills and 44 mag below. The basement had 10 thick poured concrete walls with rebar so we layed a layer of 4" red brick over them so there is now 14" of masonry to compromise. on all visible portions (1.5 sides) of basement that are like this. The rest is protected with dirt. We did a NIJ level 3 door down there and the windows same as upstairs on used 1/2" lexan between storm windows and the regular double pained insulated glass. Our major concern was tornadoes but being bullet proof to a degree was an extra bonus. We built a panic room in the basement for the wife with NBC air filtration and two security doors at 90 degree angle to each other. Actually all this added about 10,000 dollars to the total remodel but I do have a relationship with the vendor it all came from. Remember to build in some firing ports so that you can shoot out if necessary. Other tricks to the way we did it but would take quite the post to describe it all.

Skylerbone
February 15, 2013, 05:50 PM
Shouldn't be any moisture problems adding wood and Lexan (no shift in relative humidity between adjoining rooms) to interior walls and it's not an unbearable weight to the structure itself.

Having remodeled several rooms of my house including a bathroom to include new floor, walls and ceiling, the lathe and plaster removed resided on materials similar to those used in modern construction and had survived 80+ years without cracking or problematic settling/cracking of the foundation walls (basement block walls). 2Xs are cheap and Lexan, even for 1/4" will probably see an investment of around $1,500 for two walls in a typical home. That being the case, it may pay dividends to invest additional funds in finishing off the remaining wall, adding a secure door and lock set and specialty windows for a safe room of sorts. I don't know if Lexan qualifies as a compliant product but it insulates far better than glass and might qualify for tax credit if you itemize.

I would be interested in how well flooring might hold up, things like solid strip vs. Pergo or similar laminates. Too bad the walls can't be filled with government bureaucracy though, I hear nothing gets through the red tape.

leeggen
February 15, 2013, 06:15 PM
In all it would be better to find a safer neighbor hood. A 223 inside the house
is not a good thing, even it it was coming from me pulling the trigger.Almost everything suggested would add enorum weight to your floor joist. Drywall is not going to stopp 223. Just try and see how many layers of 1/2 it will take to stop the round,"come on country boys hold my beer and watch this " It would take alot of money and remodeling to do such a job, not a DIY peoject.

Shadow 7D
February 15, 2013, 06:16 PM
Nope, he was ratted out
no amount of fortification would have protected him, it it would have, he would have stayed in on of his bunkers (very well built BTW, brought in Yugoslav specialist firms)

Isaac-1
February 15, 2013, 06:19 PM
My thought on a budget is scraps of heavy fiberglass cloth of the type used for boat building, etc.soaked in epoxy. I know in years past it was possible to buy left over remnant bits of fiberglass cloth for a fraction of the price of new, and since your not worried about overall structural strength just wetting and gluing theses together in place draped in the voids would provide some ballistic protection. You might need to do some testing to determine how much is enough. There are online sources for low end bulk 2 part epoxies that should work for this sort of application.

Phatty
February 15, 2013, 06:26 PM
Use lead. As a bonus, it will also insulate and block harmful gamma radiation.
It will also do wonders for your cell phone reception and your Wi-Fi.

Skylerbone
February 15, 2013, 06:31 PM
The resin used is beyond toxic with fumes that could choke a skunk, not a good choice for inside work. I glassed a cedar strip canoe I built at age 16 and didn't know any better but I do recall that smell. It would be difficult to pre-form pieces elsewhere to install later, especially with scrap. Good for noise control, bad for health.

unlimited4x4
February 15, 2013, 06:54 PM
Check out this episode. Very interesting. Used two 12x12 sheets of small bathroom tiles and a fiber reinforced gypsum grout/cement. It stopped 9mm, 45 acp, and buckshot. Did not stop .223 or slug, however it would be where I start if I wanted to use household items to make a bullet proof wall. Search the survivalist forums, there are threads on this topic too. Do some testing, I bet you can come up with something. You want materials that absorb energy, so rigid is not always best, look for some sort of mesh material, like a thin steel mesh that might cause the bullet to fragment before it hits the tile layers. Good luck, and if you figure something out report back!

jbkebert
February 15, 2013, 07:03 PM
I have used armortex in commercial construction. heck I still have about three sheets of the stuff. It went inside the judges bench the witness bench, and the walls to the judges chambers. A pain in the tail to cut needs to be abrasive wheel or diamond blade. It will jamb a nail gun. The only good means of installing is pre-drill than use screws.

My little testing showed that it would stop a .44 mag from 10 feet. A .223 drills a little hole right through it. A .300 win mag blows a baseball sized hole through it. This was with level two.

Skylerbone
February 15, 2013, 07:17 PM
Not sure why .223 continues to be mentioned. I watched an episode of TacTV? with The LV shooting numerous calibers into mock walls of traditional construction spaced 12' apart. 9mm FMJ went through the 3 or 4 walls they had constructed (2X4 sandwiched with drywall), through the aluminum siding of the far wall and was lost. Buckshot IIRC penetrated 4 layers (through first wall, across the "room", into back of second wall) and .223 FMJ broke up between the first and second layer of wall #1 leaving 3 small fragments in the far wall of second wall. My guess is that fewer than 20% of the 55gr. bullet crossed the room to the far wall. I'd bet it would not make it past 1 layer of Sheetrock and 1 3/4" of stud.

As the OP mentioned, the intruder's choice of ammo is the primary concern. As for me, rooms are arranged such that I should not have to fire in the direction of another bedroom or have a perpetrator shooting toward my children either but that is only the idea. I hope to never test such a plan. Centered around Rule #1.

Al Thompson
February 15, 2013, 07:36 PM
Bookcases make good cover. :)

Fryerpower
February 15, 2013, 07:48 PM
Bookcases make good cover. :)
Yes they do...

Do them as built in book shelves so that you have an excuse to pull the drywall, fill the void with something to soak up the energy, build the book cases with 3/4 inch plywood at the back bolted directly to the studs.

Perfect excuse to go in there in the first place, great looking addition to the room, plus all of the books on the shelves can help if anything gets through.

Jim

brboyer
February 15, 2013, 07:53 PM
Low-tech: A couple strategically placed book shelves - Problem solved.





ETA: Al beat me to it. :(

zxcvbob
February 15, 2013, 08:03 PM
Anybody know how well Hardibacker works? (fiber-reinforced cement board) Use that instead of gypsum.

jim243
February 15, 2013, 08:07 PM
Shreeded denim jeans. Do not compact them, but should work as well as kevlar. You want sufficient air space within the material to break up the path of the bullet.

Jim

ball3006
February 15, 2013, 08:11 PM
Question, why are you shooting the walls in your place? chris3

Arp32
February 15, 2013, 08:16 PM
Question, why are you shooting the walls in your place?

These are just the kinds of silly questions that derail a good thread!

Isaac-1
February 15, 2013, 08:19 PM
The resin used is beyond toxic with fumes that could choke a skunk, not a good choice for inside work. I glassed a cedar strip canoe I built at age 16 and didn't know any better but I do recall that smell. It would be difficult to pre-form pieces elsewhere to install later, especially with scrap. Good for noise control, bad for health.

Your probably thinking of the old style polyester resin, not epoxy resin which is mostly odorless

jim243
February 15, 2013, 08:19 PM
why are you shooting the walls in your place?

He is not, he wants it to go with the tin foil hat he is wearing (LOL).

Remember that no matter what you put in the walls, it will not stop a 300 Win Mag, 338 mag or a 50 BMG.

Jim

JonnyGringo
February 15, 2013, 08:56 PM
Anybody know how well Hardibacker works? (fiber-reinforced cement board) Use that instead of gypsum.

Hardibacker won't stop a pellet gun, however it is an excellent fireproofing material. I have done extensive testing with this material with excellent results

The O.P. I have hands on experience with your situation. I made a mock-up wall panel 2x4 construction with 1/2' ply on each side and filled it with DRY 3/4 crushed gravel. It stopped close to 100 .223 rounds, three clips of .308, and finally succumbed to repeated blows from my 338 win mag. The gravel inside was pulverized a bit with each successive shot and eventually settled to the point that it had insufficient mass to stop the assault, however that was after major punishment. I would sit behind that with confidence under direct fire from a wide range of weapons for quite some time. Build one of your own and conduct your own testing, I think you will be amazed by the results. Crushed gravel is much lighter than just about anything else with sufficient density to stop penetration and is much cheaper than anything else you could think of. Make sure it's DRY. Also make sure you provide some additional support at all necessary bearing points.

r1derbike
February 15, 2013, 10:12 PM
I like the bookcases idea! Brilliant!

Skylerbone
February 15, 2013, 10:36 PM
I almost threw out the phone book suggestion but I'm sure no one wants a massive stack of paper in the walls in case of fire. Add denim to that list.

The problem I see with bookcases is both the lack paper books these days and the not so cheap necessity to fill them, two walls worth, before they become effective. Let's also not forget that kids are born believing everything is an obsticle to be climbed. I remember fondly the 5' tall dresser I frequently used to launch myself across my own room onto the bed. Iiiiiiit cooood have endedddd in bwain damnage.

Gravel would be great with the exceptions of weight and a days worth of wheelbarrowing it would take to move it.

Tomcat47
February 15, 2013, 10:37 PM
Best economical alternative I can think of....

And to take it a step further, before laying brick wrap it in kevlar instead of Tyvek! :)

Airbrush Artist
February 15, 2013, 10:41 PM
Old Tires

hso
February 16, 2013, 12:40 AM
HDPE

Skylerbone
February 16, 2013, 01:45 AM
Did some looking into that one but every report said rifle bullets, specifically .223 Rem. cut right through it. I'd almost bet it would work using the 2X or plywood backing but tough to say.

Did some demo of UHMW tanks last year that were used for liquid storage and badly wanted to take some home for woodworking jigs and target backers but alas, against company policy. At one point I had to cut holes around the perimeter to collapse the roof and this stuff was murder on blades even some 25 years after exposure to petroleum products on a continuous basis. With hso's HDPE suggestion, I Googled "UHMW bulletproof" and found a video of .45ACP vs. 1" wherein the bullet was stopped but a high velocity pointy round...

mljdeckard
February 16, 2013, 02:04 AM
One day when I build Fort Deckard, the interior walls will be built of something stronger than sheet rock. I have the wife convinced that brick can be quite elegant for the interior of a home.

I heard once of Kevlar ballistic panels that can be built into walls.

coloradokevin
February 16, 2013, 05:13 AM
I haven't done enough testing on this to be fully confident, but it certainly can't hurt if your home's exterior walls are a bit more sturdy to begin with. I live in a brick house. There's definitely a possibility of some bullets being able to bust through, but it's a heck of a lot better than wood or vinyl siding in my opinion. I imagine it would stop or substantially slow most handgun rounds without a problem.

Ehtereon11B
February 16, 2013, 05:23 AM
Phonebooks.

WCraven
February 16, 2013, 09:36 AM
I like the phonebooks and tires .. also water will stop bullets if you could come up with a way to hold in within the walls as it's cheap. the more height you have the more water pressure .. 10' is close to 5 pounds of water pressure.

Skylerbone
February 16, 2013, 11:45 AM
For those catching up, a summary of a few proposals:

Phone books, tires. Both fire hazards.
Water. Destructive.
Gravel, lead, bricks. Heavy for structure, risk of damage.
Sand. Heavy, can retain moisture causing mold.
Layered Sheetrock. Simple, progressively heavier as protection increases.

Fiberglass cloth & resin. Lightweight, may be effective?
Ceramic tile. Effective to some extent, one-shot protection.
Kevlar/ballistic barrier. Expensive, may not stop rifle calibers.
Book shelves. Effective, decorative, can hide on-wall materials, expensive to fill.
HDPE/plastic sheeting. Cost effective, simple, may not stop rifle calibers.
Lexan (bulletproof glass) with stud wall barrier. Elevated cost but effective.

There may be some I've forgotten. The OP intends to build mock ups and test.

texasgun
February 16, 2013, 12:26 PM
for beginners: don't use .223 for home defense if over-penetration is your issue :banghead:

shotgun or handgun with JHP .....

Skylerbone
February 16, 2013, 01:00 PM
Hollow point ammo in traditional form becomes packed with gypsum when fired into Sheetrock, effectively creating a FMJ. The .223 with its thin skin, light weight and higher velocity fragments in that same material. The rifle is also far more effective on target and an excellent choice IMO.

BSA1
February 16, 2013, 01:10 PM
While the reason for your request seems unusual I have a simple method if you have basic carpenter skills;

1. Remove the Sheetrock from one side of the wall. You only need to remove enough to expose how high you are going.

2. Measure and cut 2 x 4's to lay flat between the wall studs. It should be 16" on center so that figures out to 14 1/2".

3. Stack the 2x4's laying flat as you go up inside the wall. Nail the boards together as you go to hold them in place. I would also use metal straps to help hold everything in place.

4. Replace drywall, mud and repaint entire room.

5. This gives you 3 1/2" of wood plus 1" of drywall for a bullet to pass through.

For the flooring look at stone such as granite.

Sam1911
February 16, 2013, 01:24 PM
While the reason for your request seems unusual I have a simple method if you have basic carpenter skills;

1. Remove the Sheetrock from one side of the wall. You only need to remove enough to expose how high you are going.

2. Measure and cut 2 x 4's to lay flat between the wall studs. It should be 16" on center so that figures out to 14 1/2".

3. Stack the 2x4's laying flat as you go up inside the wall. Nail the boards together as you go to hold them in place. I would also use metal straps to help hold everything in place.

4. Replace drywall, mud and repaint entire room.

5. This gives you 3 1/2" of wood plus 1" of drywall for a bullet to pass through.

See, that was my suggestion, except instead of 2x4s which are insanely easy for most firearm ammunition to blow right through, I suggested dry-stacking regular house bricks. Pretty cheap, not really all that heavy, and definitely going to disrupt the passage of at least a few rounds of whatever common defensive cartridges.

Skylerbone
February 16, 2013, 01:48 PM
Post #86 highlights most of the suggestions given so far, including 2X4 barriers with Lexan. The idea being Lexan deflects so: Sheetrock, wood, then Lexan. Bullet expends partial energy in wood, is stopped by Lexan and encapsulated. No ricochet.

texasgun
February 16, 2013, 02:46 PM
"The .223 with its thin skin, light weight and higher velocity fragments in that same material."

so .223 doesn't go thru sheet-rock? LOL. if that would be the case it would be an awful round.... seriously.... .223 and the NATO version cut through sheet rock, car glass and light metal like a hot knife thru butter.

not saying that JHP won't go thru either... but saying that .223 fragments upon impact on such a light material yet a 9mm round goes thru is funny :rolleyes:

Skylerbone
February 16, 2013, 03:01 PM
Not every bullet is built to penetrate. If it were, we'd only need one type and caliber for everything.

Roll eyes all you like, I trust Larry Vickers did his homework and I watched the tests. Standard home construction wall mock up with Sheetrock, studs, Sheetrock with each "wall" spaced at 12'. Last wall with insulated aluminum siding.

mljdeckard
February 16, 2013, 03:19 PM
texasgun, do your own tests, and you might be surprised. If you use pretty much any load of .223 besides M855, it is less likely to over-penetrate than most defensive pistol loads.

I have preached for years that worrying about 'over-penetration' is futile. When you are fighting for your life, your first and foremost concern should be how likely a given round will be to stop the bad guy. Even if you found a magical round that will reliably stop a bad guy, but WON'T be likely to go through them and hit whatever is behind them, you are very likely to miss at least some of your shots. Try to arrange your home in advance so that there are no people sleeping at the end of likely fields of fire. I don't think it is at all unreasonable to explore solutions like this to prevent unwanted damage. But remember that in any risk management process, the final step is to accept the risk you can't control and move on.

T.R.
February 16, 2013, 04:19 PM
Bricks work well.

TR

mljdeckard
February 16, 2013, 07:28 PM
A lot of Beavis tourists here today.

Fryerpower
February 16, 2013, 07:32 PM
3, 2, 1...
And they are gone!
Great job Moderators! They were clearly drunks at the computer on a Saturday night.

Jim

22-rimfire
February 16, 2013, 07:46 PM
If I were truly concerned about this, I would not modify an existing structure. It would be new construction unless you have a basment like my brother with 12 foot ceilings. Plus, you don't need to harden the entire house. You only need to harden selected portions of the house. So, you could have a large basement with heavy steel doors and bullet barriers behind the doors (essentially you walk in an L as you enter the house). Leave the above ground portion of the house as normal construction or use 2x6 walls and harden them slightly. Install bullet barriers inside the house in selected areas and constuct basement walls with concert (preferably poured) with ventilation designed to deal with the likely humidity issues. Essentially you are creating defensible zones in an emergency. But you are not going to stop an all out military style strike (with explosives) no matter what you do.

wrc
February 16, 2013, 07:56 PM
In my old house, the interior was built with 3/8" sheetrock over 1/4" backer board. Every room had that. It was a real pain when you needed to cut into it. My father's house across town had the same, so I guess it was just a trend for building a house in the mid-50's (right along with steel doorframes). The extra 1/2" of concrete board probably slows down incoming fire.

Having light corrugated steel in between studs helps make incoming rounds deflect and keyhole, from what I understand. I don't know if that helps in the real world.

Tinpig
February 16, 2013, 08:11 PM
It's been mentioned several times, but tightly dry-laid bricks inside the stud wall seem like a good solution. You only need to stack them as high as you need protection. Brick varies a lot in dimensions, but you can easily find ones 3 1/2" wide or less so that they fit inside the wall cavity.

Doing quick math I figure a 10 foot wall stacked 6 feet high with brick would take more than 500 bricks. Figuring 5lbs/brick that's well over a ton, so be sure there's a load-bearing wall or foundation beneath it.

Of course the studs won't offer much protection, so better mark them on the wall, and be sure you're narrow enough to stand between them (14 1/2 in.)
:)

Tinpig

Jim Watson
February 16, 2013, 08:17 PM
Depending on room layout, you could armor the headboards of the kids' beds and tell them to hunker down if they heard a shot.

481
February 16, 2013, 08:36 PM
Bricks work well.

TR

And extremely well at that.

In this US DoD publication

http://www.wbdg.org/ccb/DOD/UFC/ufc_4_023_07.pdf

there are equations that will allow anyone interested to explore the resistance of common building materials to small arms fire and residential bricks seem to be one of the best options.

According to the equations found in Chapter 5: Building Elements- fired residential brick (not veneer) just 1.25 inches thick will defeat the 9mm M882 (1275 fps) while 7.5 inches of the very same type of brick will defeat the M855 round (~ 3050 fps) and 8.5 inches will defeat the 7.62 NATO M61 (~ 2800 fps). Most bricks are 3.5 - 4.0 inches wide so it'd take just one extra layer at the front exterior of a building to greatly improve its resistance to small arms fire. Easily done during or after construction.

In comparison, according to the same publication's equations, it takes 5.5 inches of kiln dried pine to stop a 9mm M882, nearly 10 inches (9.75 inches) to stop the M855 round, and 14.5 inches to stop the 7.62 NATO M61 round. That's a lot of wood.

wep45
February 16, 2013, 09:07 PM
concrete and rebar

hueyville
February 17, 2013, 12:41 AM
All of these steel, concrete, etc recommendations for a remodel situation are non workable as the weight will compromise the.structure. There are over a dozen companies making a fiberglass composite material that can be purchased from NIJ level II through level IV and beyond at reasonable prices considering what it does. Cheaper than hard plate steel and 25% or less comparable weight. I am hesitant to recommend a particular company but a Google search will find this product. Three of the bigger more reputable companies are located in Texas and the best I have used actually is made just a few mileage from me in N.E. GA. They can be sawed with a blade comparable for ceramic tile. The product is outstanding and easy to use. A previous poster mentioned using it in Judges benches. Almost every judges bench built in past decade has this material so judge just has to duck and he is bullet proof. It can be sawed with correct blade, drilled and screwed. Easy to use and Detroit existing structures. Steel is not bullet resistant till you move ul to T1 or AR400 hardplate. Then its heavy and if you cut it using heat it can compromise its reliability near the edges where it was heated.

Now as th HDPE, I use this product weekly. I buy it buy the pallet load in thickness from 1/4" to 1.5". It will stop lower velocity pistols with large frontal diameter. A civilian 5.56 will burn though 1" and have seen SS109 penetrator burn through 3" of this material. Concrete and rebar is good but you can't pour concrete into the walls of your house. Unless you are doing new construction it is prohibitive in a remodel scenario unless you had this planned already. I bought a home that had to be gutted and redone. Thus, since I had the drywall ripped out I bout enough of the fiberglass type panels already cut to 14.5" with and.put them between the studs on from and sides of house. The parts without brick are rated to stop up to .38/9mm. The brick areas will stop more.

Too many people over or under think the subject. Everything you need to know is readily available on the web or from companies that make these specific materials. Like 1/4" Lexan will stop a 38 special but if it is less than 20 degrees Fahrenheit it will not stop a thrown rock. As mentioned before my basement walls are 10" poured concrete with 4" thick red brick. I found a piece of 10" thick concrete from a construction demo and placed.some 4" red brick in front of it. I was happy with what it would stop. I have also taken 1/2" mild steel and seen how easily it was to blast holes through it. 3/16" AR400 will stop what 3/4" mild will not. Math, physics, etc tell you all you need to know.

When you consider concrete there are as many formulations as there are in steel. I have a friend who specializes in selling hardened concrete for secure facilities such as government and bank vaults. Concrete is not all the same. So there are so many variables in hardening a structure no matter the material that there is no easy answer. The newer laminated fiber products with kevlar layers embedded are the lightest, easiest to install and toughest out there. My clients use all according to project. I see it all as part of my business is to install faraday cages to protect.from EMP events and electronic surveillance. I have to work with the companies that do the blast/ballistic/storm protection on a regular basis. Solutions that cover all of these are way more complicated than a little steel or concrete.

Skylerbone
February 17, 2013, 01:06 AM
20 degrees F would be awfully cold for an interior wall. Any approximation on cost of specialized panels? I'm starting to think I should do a little more remodeling.

MICHAEL T
February 17, 2013, 06:36 AM
1/2 thick Lexan will stop a lot of common pistol ,shotgun and maybe 223 Not cheap . I used thinner in my store. Behind windows to stop smash and grab and all my jewery show cases was built using it. To prevent robbers from busting case and grabing jewery .

Fryerpower
February 17, 2013, 08:45 AM
@hueyville
Panels like you described built into or attached to bookshelves would do the trick with no gaps. Or bolt to the walls and then put bookshelves in front to hide them.

Jim

rodinal220
February 17, 2013, 08:45 AM
Just brick the outside of your house.Thats what I did,its like an "up armor" kit.

or you could get what the commercial/industrial market uses:

http://armorco.com/shop/category.aspx?catid=3

Hunter125
February 17, 2013, 06:50 PM
What if you tore out one side of drywall, then fixed steel luveres between the studs. Same concept as an angled steel target. Maybe the cavities could be filled with something to catch bullet fragments with sheet metal over the studs to contain ricochets.

LeonCarr
February 17, 2013, 07:53 PM
I still like the idea of the Quilt/Tapestry hung on the wall with Kevlar panels attached to the back of them.

Granted unless your nickname is "The Quilt Guy" it might be hard/weird/cost prohibitive to cover all your interior walls with Quilts and Kevlar panels, but you could use the concept for specific walls or a safe room.

All of the other great ideas in this thread IMO would work better with a remodel or new construction, when the Quilts and Kevlar panels would involve hooks screwed into studs on your existing walls.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

Shadow 7D
February 18, 2013, 02:33 AM
Insulated foam form concrete...
With a nice brick exterior

Arp32
February 18, 2013, 03:03 AM
Insulated foam form concrete...
With a nice brick exterior

For an interior wall?!?

michaelbsc
February 18, 2013, 10:40 AM
For an interior wall?!?

Oddly enough the entryways at my house are both enclosures from earlier entryways, so there is brick inside the foyer.

I don't think this is what the OP is getting at though.

CountryUgly
February 18, 2013, 05:08 PM
Easy fix.... large book cases filled with books. I have several placed through out the house in areas where I don't want to overshoot (see kids rooms).....

hueyville
February 18, 2013, 08:52 PM
We continue with the Lexan recommendations. For those that are recommending it I would like to know how much of it you have actually shot and with what? I pulled a piece of 1/8, 1/4, 3/16 and 1/2 scrap out of the rack just today because of this thread. We cut and clamped them into the bullet trap and chowed down. The person that thinks it "may" stop 5.56 might want to give it a try before making that statement. Even the half inch was defeated with .45 acp hardball. Didn't even have to magnum size a pistol to defeat it. Same with HDPE. 1/2" and under is not a reliable bullet stopper. If it was, you would see it marketed as such. One of my suppliers sells bullet resistant clear polymer materials. The thinnest product they have in the catalog that is rated to stop "most" handguns is 1.5" thick. It has three layers laminated together with the outside layer being designed to be a U.V. blocker and scratch resistant.

I have 1/8" to 1" Lexan, HDPE, Plexiglass and others in my materials rack. In our steel rack we have aluminum, stainless steel, mild steel, T1 and AR300 and a few scraps of AR400 hard plate. 3/16 to 1/2" hard plate will stop most handguns. Full magnums will bust 3/16" with a full perpendicular strike. At 30 to 45 degree angle it becomes much more resistent to penetration.

Back around 25 years ago I built my first set of falling plates out of 3/8" T1 steel. I had them for several years and shot them with every handgun I owned. As they were designed to tip when hit and the T1 is relatively hard I never had a problem. One day I happened to have my AR-15 practicing some 3 gun work. It was loaded up with 55 grain jacketed soft points. I decided to run it across my falling plate setup. I ran it across the plates and two failed to tip over. I could not believe I missed so I shot at each again and they quivered but didn't fall. I walked down to the plates and everyone had a nice little hole burned right through the middle and the two that didn't fall had two holes. Had to bring them to work and weld up the holes with a hardening rod.

As I mentioned earlier I have a center storm window in all of my homes windows made out of 1/4" Lexan. The outer storm windows have 3M Ultra Prestige Security Film over tempered glass. Then the center frames have 1/4" Lexan and the actual windows are standard double layer glass insulated windows of a slightly better grade than in most common homes. I have actually shot at a real simulation of my windows. A lead 38 special target load does not make it completely through first shot but everything is fubar. My goal for my window setup is to stop debris in the even of a tornado traveling in close proximity to my house slinging crap.

Lexan also if used in direct exposure to sunlight loses most of its toughness within a few years. In cold weather it is fragile. Too many better products. My house is an older house and in the remodel process we bricked it over. Masonry is the easiest and cheapest fix for exterior walls. If your worried about interior walls and shooting through an hitting other family members you have a couple of easier fixes. Don't turn an AR-15 loose in the house. A riot 12 gauge with 2 3/4" buckshot rounds will stop the bad guy without going through him, the wall and your kids. YMMV,

dirtykid
February 18, 2013, 11:51 PM
Now you guys got me thinking,,
I sell galvanized sheet-steel for HVAC duct work,up to as thick as 18ga,
I would think a layer of 18ga steel witha layer of 1/2" sheetrock, then another layer
of steel with a final layer of interior 1/2" sheetrock would slow down just about any
small-caliber round to the point where it would no longer be deadly.
I will make such a wall,and test it when the weather calms down,
In theory , even a FMJ bullet hitting a layer of steel,with a dense material like sheetrock
behind it,supported by another layer of steel,would bring velocities to less than lethal,
Having the bookshelf full of books would be an excellent insurance barrier to stop shrapnel,, I normally sell 4'x8' sheets of 18ga steel for $39 a sheet

Skylerbone
February 19, 2013, 10:29 AM
I don't think anyone is proposing Lexan by itself. The OP is using a carbine for HD and believes any armed intruder will likely be carrying a handgun. What was proposed with Lexan was, from his room toward kid's room: 1/2" Sheetrock followed by air space followed by 1 3/4" of wood (common stud), sandwiched to 1/2" Lexan, sandwiched to 1/2" Sheetrock. No claims have been made as to effectiveness but the OP is planning to mock up any setting before demo begins.

481
February 19, 2013, 02:19 PM
Now you guys got me thinking,,
I sell galvanized sheet-steel for HVAC duct work,up to as thick as 18ga,
I would think a layer of 18ga steel witha layer of 1/2" sheetrock, then another layer
of steel with a final layer of interior 1/2" sheetrock would slow down just about any
small-caliber round to the point where it would no longer be deadly.
I will make such a wall,and test it when the weather calms down,
In theory , even a FMJ bullet hitting a layer of steel,with a dense material like sheetrock
behind it,supported by another layer of steel,would bring velocities to less than lethal,
Having the bookshelf full of books would be an excellent insurance barrier to stop shrapnel,, I normally sell 4'x8' sheets of 18ga steel for $39 a sheet

That's an interesting approach.

Using the building material penetration formulas found in this publication-

http://www.wbdg.org/ccb/DOD/UFC/ufc_4_023_07.pdf

-a 9mm 115 gr FMJ @ 1155 fps would exit those materials at 350.4 fps and a .45ACP 230 gr FMJ @ 850 fps would exit at 232.5 fps.

Using the Schwartz bullet penetration model found in this publication-

www.quantitativeammunitionselection.com

-the 9mm 115 gr FMJ would still penetrate to a depth of 10.1 inches in soft tissue after exiting those materials and the .45ACP 230 gr FMJ would still penetrate to a depth of 6.6 inches in soft tissue.

Add another 18 gauge steel sheet (a third sheet) and neither round should exit (at least according to the formulas) the barrier.

brboyer
February 19, 2013, 05:19 PM
for beginners: don't use .223 for home defense if over-penetration is your issue :banghead:

shotgun or handgun with JHP .....
Experienced shooters know that many handgun rounds penetrate more in typical home construction than does .223

Same with buckshot.

Skylerbone
February 19, 2013, 07:46 PM
And hopefully home owners choosing a .223/5.56 for HD aren't shooting steel core ammo as was cited in posts. I have serious doubts an intruder would be, unless they're from the Government...and not there to help.

dirtykid
February 19, 2013, 11:25 PM
Thanks 481,
After taking a good look today at the sheet steel, 18ga dosent seem very thick at all,
I had forgot we had some 4'x10' sheets of 16ga also, IF I was to expirement with any of
these concepts,it would be with at LEAST the 16ga steel in multiple layers,with some bookshelves to absorb any remaining energy,

hueyville
February 20, 2013, 01:46 AM
http://www.tssbulletproof.com/bullet_proof_glass_materials/?gclid=CM6ez_2gxLUCFQuqnQod_EcALA

http://protectivestructures.com/bullet-resistant-product-brands/

These few are a good start but just the tip of the iceberg. More research and development has gone into these products over the past 20 years than ever before. Composite materials are actually inexpensive enough to use in new home construction and remodeling.

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