Guns and lease agreements


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qwert65
February 15, 2013, 04:53 PM
Hi all, I am contemplating moving to a different state I'm having trouble finding an apartment/house in the area that doesn't have a no firearms policy- these seem to be boiler-plate like the restricted dog breeds most of them have(German sheperds really?). In my youth I lived for a year(saving for a house) in a apartment with these rules after a shooting in the neighborhood I brought a gun back from my parents and kept it in the house figuring they could just ask me to leave.
In the same situation today (as a licensed vet) I don't want to get in any trouble. Does anyone know if these have the for e of law or I get asked to leave worst case?

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Teachu2
February 15, 2013, 04:55 PM
Without knowing the state, I'd bet eviction is all they can do.

Shadow 7D
February 15, 2013, 05:03 PM
every big city and most states have a 'housing office' that deals with landlord/rentor issues, they would know the applicable laws for your state.

psyopspec
February 15, 2013, 05:07 PM
As an alternative, you could look for a homeowner to rent a room from on Craigslist. That's what I'm doing right now while deciding if I want to permanently move to a new area. When I met up I asked for a copy of his lease agreement and just asked what his thoughts were on his tenants being gun owners. Got it cleared up right away.

The usual warnings apply, secure your stuff, don't be a craigslist killer victim, etc.

primalmu
February 15, 2013, 05:08 PM
Also, keep in mind that a lot of these places use a generic lease that they didn't make up themselves. I was going to move into a place a few years ago when I moved to MS and noticed that the lease said no guns. I called them up and talked to the land lord, told them I own guns and have a concealed carry permit, and they were fine with it.

qwert65
February 15, 2013, 05:16 PM
The state is MD if it was just me I'd go the Craigslist route, however I have a fiancé, dog, and cat.

soloban
February 15, 2013, 06:26 PM
What they don't know can't hurt em...

razorback2003
February 15, 2013, 06:44 PM
You probably would not be breaking any law by keeping a pistol at your apartment. About all they could do over that is just ask you to move out.

No way would i let something like that keep me from protecting myself at home.

ColtPythonElite
February 15, 2013, 06:46 PM
A lease is a contract. If you don't abide by the terms, you can be evicted.

vamo
February 15, 2013, 06:55 PM
There is a good chance if you ask for an exemption you could get it, just make sure that you get it in writing.

Texan Scott
February 15, 2013, 07:14 PM
I once had a landlord with this in the lease. As far as I'm concerned, they are compelling you to give up a SCOTUS-upheld civil right to obtain housing. In my opinion, this ranks right up there with refusing to rent to racial minorities and ought to be illegal.

My advice: it's not a LAW, it's a discriminatory housing practice. Ignore it and press on.

CarolinaChuck
February 15, 2013, 07:34 PM
My wife is in real estate and deals with these kinds of thing. Sign the lease and keep your yap shut... This is not like sneaking a dog or horse onto the property that could actually do damage to his property, and the land owner really does not have any business in asking the question.

He can be a twit and put in on a lease if he wants, but he will look like the twit he is in a court of law in front of a judge. You have a legal right to keep and bare arms in this country, to protect yourself, your family and property; and he has no business to infringe on those rights, or to require you to give up those rights by contract.

Chuck

sean326
February 15, 2013, 08:03 PM
I've got a dozen apartment buildings, I use the state board of realtors lease. It's not bad and complies with all the laws, it's even a 4 part carbon less form so you just pull it apart and hand the tenant their copy. There is not a word about guns in it.

Also remember leases are negotiable, you could just cross out that paragraph and initial it, if the owner/manager is a gun guy he may just shrugg his shoulders and sign it.

As a last resort just don't worry about it, put you gun cases in a hockey bag when you move them back and forth from your apartment to your car. If you get caught apologize and say they were a friends you'll be returning them. By the time that happens 3 or 4 times you'll be moving out into your own home on the range or with a range.

joeschmoe
February 15, 2013, 08:55 PM
It's a civil contract, not criminal law. Let them try to enforce thier rules.

Frank Ettin
February 15, 2013, 09:07 PM
Unless there is a state law prohibiting a "no guns" clause in a residential lease (and AFAIK only one State, I think Michigan, has such a law), a "no guns" clause is valid and enforceable. That means you are subject to eviction if you are caught in violation. An eviction can be reported to credit reporting agencies and affect your future ability to get credit -- and might also affect your employment.

Also, as far as I'm concerned people with integrity don't enter into contracts they don't intend to abide by. We like to talk fondly of the days when a man's word was his bond and he kept his promises. If anyone wonders why it doesn't seem to be that way anymore, he only has to look at some of the responses in this thread.

Property rights mean something too. It's the landlord's property. He has the right to determine on what terms he is willing to allow someone to live in his property, as long as his terms don't violate the law. If you're not willing to abide by his terms, the right thing to do is look elsewhere.

...As far as I'm concerned, they are compelling you to give up a SCOTUS-upheld civil right to obtain housing. In my opinion, this ranks right up there with refusing to rent to racial minorities and ought to be illegal.

My advice: it's not a LAW, it's a discriminatory housing practice. Ignore it and press on. Twaddle!

You should make an effort to learn a little something about the laws related to discrimination.

The Constitution is completely irrelevant here. The Constitution does not regulate private conduct. The Supreme Court has made that clear.

As explained by the United States Supreme Court (Edmonson v. Leesville Concrete Company, Inc, 500 U.S. 614 (U. S. Supreme Court, 1991), emphasis added): ....The Constitution structures the National Government, confines its actions, and, in regard to certain individual liberties and other specified matters, confines the actions of the States. With a few exceptions, such as the provisions of the Thirteenth Amendment, constitutional guarantees of individual liberty and equal protection do not apply to the actions of private entities. Tarkanian, supra, 488 U.S., at 191, 109 S.Ct., at 461; Flagg Bros, Inc. v. Brooks, 436 U.S. 149, 156, 98 S.Ct. 1729, 1733, 56 L.Ed.2d 185 (1978). This fundamental limitation on the scope of constitutional guarantees "preserves an area of individual freedom by limiting the reach of federal law" and "avoids imposing on the State, its agencies or officials, responsibility for conduct for which they cannot fairly be blamed." Lugar v. Edmondson Oil Co., 457 U.S. 922, 936-937, 102 S.Ct. 2744, 2753, 73 L.Ed.2d 482 (1982). One great object of the Constitution is to permit citizens to structure their private relations as they choose subject only to the constraints of statutory or decisional law. ....


Yes, a "no guns" clause in a residential lease is discrimination, but in general discrimination is perfectly legal.

Every time you decide to shop in this store rather than that, you have discriminated. Every time you decide to buy this rather than that, you have discriminated.

Businesses discriminate all the time too, and legally. Apple stores discriminate against people who want to buy a PC by only selling Apple computers. Many restaurants discriminate against Orthodox Jews or Muslims by not strictly following the dietary laws of those religions. Many restaurants also discriminate against persons not wearing shirts and/or shoes by not admitting them. Tiffany discriminates against poor people in the prices they charge.

Discrimination is merely choosing one thing over another or rejecting a possible choice. Discrimination is the very essence of freedom and private property. It is the right to choose. It is the right to exclude. It is the right to decide how you want to use your property. Discrimination is perfectly legal, unless some law makes it illegal.


To the extent it may be illegal for a landlord to discriminate, it's because of a statute and not the Constitution.

There are laws that make discrimination illegal on various, specifically identified and defined bases such as race, religion, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, and some others, illegal -- at least if you're a landlord, a business open to the public, an employer or in some other specified category. These various anti-discrimination laws only prohibit discrimination on those various specified grounds. Having a gun isn't one of them.

The leasing of residential property is also heavily regulated by statute. There are laws about clauses that have to be in a lease and about clauses that may not be in a lease. There are laws about the rights of tenants.


Conflicting rights often rub against each other, and when they do, it's been customary in our system for a legislative body to decide priorities and enact laws to ameliorate the rubbing.

Landlords renting residential property are subject to substantial regulation. The various requirements, regulations and rules to which a residential landlord is subject arose through the political process in which interested parties can participate; and they therefore reflect a considered determination by a legislative body or authorized administrative agency that as a matter of public policy the public interest served by the requirement, regulation or rule was sufficient to justify impairment of the property rights of the landlord.

Cosmoline
February 15, 2013, 09:20 PM
The best thing to do is rent from small-scale landlords rather than through a PMC. They just want a quiet tenant who pays on time and usually don't try to foist five pages of boilerplate on you.

Frank Ettin
February 15, 2013, 09:27 PM
The best thing to do is rent from small-scale landlords rather than through a PMC. They just want a quiet tenant who pays on time and usually don't try to foist five pages of boilerplate on you.Also small-scale landlords will also often be more open to negotiating modifications to their lease form, especially if you have made a good impression on them.

Texan Scott
February 15, 2013, 09:27 PM
Mr. Ettin, respectfully, I didn't suggest the guns clause IS illegal or unenforceable, because I'm well aware that it is legal and enforceable. What I said was that it OUGHT to be illegal. Obviously, this is only my opinion, and others are free to disagree.

As far as anyone's thoughts about my 'integrity', I have been known on occasion to display a shockingly amoral tendency where law and politics are concerned, particularly where they boil down to use of coercion. Again, that's just me, and nobody has to agree with my attitudes or actions (many have ventured to disagree over the years). I'm aware this can and often does have consequences I may not find pleasant. We all make our own choices.

Given the choice between being unable to find suitable housing for my family, or dishonest enough to live somewhere suitable while maintaining the ability to defend my family... well, I've been there, and made my own decisions. I share only because the OP asked.

Frank Ettin
February 15, 2013, 09:36 PM
Mr. Ettin, respectfully, I didn't suggest the guns clause IS illegal or unenforceable, because I'm well aware that it is legal and enforceable. What I said was that it OUGHT to be illegal....So you do understand that such clauses are in fact legal and enforceable (except in perhaps one State). Whether you think they ought to be legal is irrelevant to the OP's issue.

...As far as anyone's thoughts about my 'integrity', I have been known on occasion to display a shockingly amoral tendency where law and politics are concerned, particularly where they boil down to use of coercion. Again, that's just me, and nobody has to agree with my attitudes or actions (many have ventured to disagree over the years). I'm aware this can and often does have consequences I may not find pleasant. We all make our own choices...So it seems that you admit to taking a very situational and flexible view of the importance of keeping your commitments. I'd hope you're at least forthright enough about that to disclose it to anyone you enter into a contract with.

Texan Scott
February 15, 2013, 09:48 PM
I don't view it as a matter of situational morality, but as a matter of most compelling obligation. As my obligation to protect and provide for my family outweighs (in my judgement) my obligation to be honest with a landlord about such, I make my decisions accordingly.

I'm well aware that I won't always be the FINAL arbiter of such decisions... but I will be the first. That I admit freely and without apology.

Frank Ettin
February 15, 2013, 10:00 PM
I don't view it as a matter of situational morality, but as a matter of most compelling obligation....Nonetheless, it makes you a suspect person with whom to do business. Someone doing business with you can never know if you indeed plan to honor your promise or if you will find some obligation you feel is more compelling to excuse your default, at least in your own mind.

Rationalize your attitude any way you like. I for one don't congratulate you on it.

But we're getting to far off topic. This is the OP's thread, and we need to focus on his issue.

ColtPythonElite
February 15, 2013, 10:04 PM
I agree...Don't enter in a contract you to plan to abide by.

Frank Ettin
February 15, 2013, 10:08 PM
I agree...Don't enter in a contract you to plan to abide by. Don't you mean, "Don't enter in a contract you don't plan to abide by"?

qwert65
February 16, 2013, 01:08 AM
Well I appreciate all the responses- I am in the unfortunate situation of having to secure housing without knowing anyone in the state.
I do realize that I would be entering into a contract that I did not plan on upholding fully though I don't consider that dishonest due to that I sign my name to an agreement stating that if I don't abide by the rules they can evict me. As long as I don't refuse to go I feel(right or wrong) that I upheld my end.
Example if I made an offer on a house and reneged I lose my deposit. That's the rules. It's only dishonest if I try to get the deposit back.

Anyway, obviously I would do this ad a last resort I'm looking at some houses now which are individuals. But I will do what I have to.
I was wondering if there were any other repercussions besides eviction, loss of deposit, etc. my credit being affected is a big deal that's good to know.

I would also like to say I myself am a landlord(different state) and really don't care what my tenants do as long as they pay on time and don't damage anything(I'm not a hippo rite)

Mr_Polite
February 16, 2013, 01:11 AM
2nd Amendment. What if an apartment told you, "if you live here and are female you can't vote"

Frank Ettin
February 16, 2013, 01:28 AM
2nd Amendment. What if an apartment told you, "if you live here and are female you can't vote" What an ignorant and nonsensical comment. Why it's ignorant and nonsensical is fully explained in post 15, which you obviously hadn't read, or if read it, you didn't understand it.

Sun Tzu warrior
February 16, 2013, 01:31 AM
There are ways to retain your common law rights under the uniform commercial code, when signing a contract, you may want to educate yourself. Hint; UCC1-207. This could absolve you of the moral delima cited by the moderator in post 15 which I happen to agree with.

ShadowsEye
February 16, 2013, 01:52 AM
Unless there is a state law prohibiting a "no guns" clause in a residential lease (and AFAIK only one State, I think Michigan, has such a law), a "no guns" clause is valid and enforceable.

In Minnesota it's illegal for a landlord to forbid the legal ownership of guns on rented property.

Frank Ettin
February 16, 2013, 02:10 AM
Unless there is a state law prohibiting a "no guns" clause in a residential lease (and AFAIK only one State, I think Michigan, has such a law), a "no guns" clause is valid and enforceable.

In Minnesota it's illegal for a landlord to forbid the legal ownership of guns on rented property.Okay, I knew that was the case in at least one State. If that's the case in Minnesota, that might be the State.

There are ways to retain your common law rights under the uniform commercial code, when signing a contract, you may want to educate yourself. Hint; UCC1-207....It depends.

The UCC was a model law. It needed to be adopted separately in each State. Not every State has adopted the UCC in exactly the same form, and some States may not have adopted portions of the model. So one would need to look at the UCC as adopted in the particular State in which the transaction takes place.


How a particular State's UCC might apply in a particular case or to a particular transaction could be affected by case law.


UCC Article 1, Section 1-207 reads:(1) A party who with explicit reservation of rights performs or promises performance or assents to performance in a manner demanded or offered by the other party does not thereby prejudice the rights reserved. Such words as "without prejudice", "under protest" or the like are sufficient.

(2) Subsection (1) does not apply to an accord and satisfaction.Exactly what right are being reserved? Is a lessee performing if he is violating a provision of the lease? Are there any court decision on point in the OP's or any other jurisdiction (involving partial performance and partial breach of a residential lease)?

Bhamrichard
February 16, 2013, 02:17 AM
That means you are subject to eviction if you are caught in violation. An eviction can be reported to credit reporting agencies and affect your future ability to get credit -- and might also affect your employment.

Uhm, don't think so. If you skip out on paying your rent, and collection proceedings are started, that can go on your credit report. The act of being evicted for "cause" other than a monetary one, cannot be legally reported to your credit file. See "Fair Credit Reporting Act".

Frank Ettin
February 16, 2013, 02:33 AM
...The act of being evicted for "cause" other than a monetary one, cannot be legally reported to your credit file. See "Fair Credit Reporting Act". There are a variety of ways a non-monetary eviction for cause can generate a discoverable negative history. Most evictions will include a money judgement, at least for costs; and that can be reported it not immediately paid.

Also, there are number of other reporting mechanisms, e.g., see here (item 7) (http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/money/consumer-protection/big-brother-is-watching/overview/index.htm) and here (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&ved=0CGkQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mrlandlord.com%2Fserviceagreement.pdf&ei=XCYfUa7eMcfxqAGeyIHoCA&usg=AFQjCNHFTx2GkRKGq2M82rlK9uB3PW-RPw&sig2=gidDNbBawFBCxK5W1Tyb-w&bvm=bv.42553238,d.aWM).

CarolinaChuck
February 16, 2013, 02:36 AM
Sea lawyers... The man can not abridge your Contitutional rights, even under contract, without being held liable. It is that simple...

Chuck

Frank Ettin
February 16, 2013, 02:58 AM
Sea lawyers...Actually, I'm a very real lawyer. Retired now, but I practiced successfully for over thirty years before I retired.

What kind of lawyer are you?

..The man can not abridge your Contitutional rights, even under contract, without being held liable. It is that simple...Nonsense. As I point out the U. S. Supreme Court has been quite clear that the Constitution does not regulate private conduct.

ColtPythonElite
February 16, 2013, 04:06 AM
Don't you mean, "Don't enter in a contract you don't plan to abide by"?
Yes....darn smart phone and idiot user.:D

thorazine
February 16, 2013, 05:45 AM
Hi all, I am contemplating moving to a different state I'm having trouble finding an apartment/house in the area that doesn't have a no firearms policy- these seem to be boiler-plate like the restricted dog breeds most of them have(German sheperds really?). In my youth I lived for a year(saving for a house) in a apartment with these rules after a shooting in the neighborhood I brought a gun back from my parents and kept it in the house figuring they could just ask me to leave.
In the same situation today (as a licensed vet) I don't want to get in any trouble. Does anyone know if these have the for e of law or I get asked to leave worst case?

Did you ask (verbally) or did you read it in the lease agreement?

I'm guessing you asked.

For I have rented condo type / townhouse type units through large management type companies and there has never been "no firearms" wordings in the lease agreement.

If you inquire ahead of time your just asking to have the lease amended and a "no firearms" provision inserted.

Just ask for a copy of the lease in advance so you can "review it" and don't mention anything about firearms.

rtroha
February 16, 2013, 09:18 AM
Unless there is a state law prohibiting a "no guns" clause in a residential lease (and AFAIK only one State, I think Michigan, has such a law)

Add Ohio to the list, at least for concealed handgun licensees.

(b) A landlord may not prohibit or restrict a tenant who is a licensee and who on or after the effective date of this amendment enters into a rental agreement with the landlord for the use of residential premises, and the tenant's guest while the tenant is present, from lawfully carrying or possessing a handgun on those residential premises.

Bubbles
February 16, 2013, 10:21 AM
Also add Virginia, when I rented out my TH my attorney told me that I couldn't have that in a lease (not that I wanted to anyway).

Frank Ettin
February 16, 2013, 10:25 AM
Add Ohio to the list, at least for concealed handgun licensees.Also add Virginia, when I rented out my TH my attorney told me that I couldn't have that in a lease (not that I wanted to anyway). Okay.

So far we have some confirmation that Minnesota, Ohio (if the tenant has a concealed handgun permit) and Virginia prohibit a "no guns" clause in a residential lease. Any more?

Sebastian the Ibis
February 16, 2013, 11:08 AM
qwert65-

1. You will have more flexibility modifying your lease with an individual as opposed to a big company so look to them.

2. Poke around on google and find the standard lease forms for your area. Real Estate Agents always have freebies. See e.g. Southern Maryland Realtors page here. (http://www.southernmarylandrealtors.org/FileDownloads/Real%20Estate%20Contracts%20and%20Forms/Residential%20Dwelling%20Lease%20Rev%20June%202012.pdf)

3. Find the form lease with the language you like the best and take it with you when you see the place. Once you negotiate the details, pull out the one you like and fill it out. Your landlord may sign it right there.

4. If your landlord is an individual with his own form lease, it is probably from Legalzoom, point out all the jurisdictional specific language in yours, that is not in his (for example in FL, Radon Gas warnings). As long as your form is from some reputable local organization he will probably go with yours.

5. If your landlord is insistent, tell him you will have to look at his in more detail. Scan his lease into your computer, and mark it up in word. Take out all inapplicable language (i.e. references to wood floors if the apartment is carpeted, references to common hallways if you are renting a whole house), and the language that offends you, make the lease as pretty and professional as possible and send it back. The better formatted your lease looks, the more likely the landlord is to take it. You would be surprised how often this works -- even with big companies. Also, if your landlord doesn't have the authority or temperament to take inapplicable language out of a lease, you probably don't want to live there.

Bhamrichard
February 16, 2013, 07:13 PM
The man can not abridge your Contitutional rights, even under contract, without being held liable. It is that simple...

Balderdash... The Constitution applies to the Federal Government, some but not all of that document (with amendments) have been incorporated against the states. However it does absolutely zero against a private citizen.

If you sign a contract with a person, or business entity, you just agreed to whatever is in that contract, and it is entirely enforceable as written.

k_dawg
February 16, 2013, 09:53 PM
Think of it this way, would YOU wish to knowingly move into a place which loudly and proudly proclaimed "No Coloreds Allowed" or "Jews Unwelcome"

?

slumlord44
February 17, 2013, 02:41 AM
Never heard of that one unless it was Federaly Subsidised Housing. Think they ban guns in the projects. Personaly have no problem with guns. Criminal activity, yes, guns as long as they are legal, no problem. Maybe they will leave some when they move out? I would try asking one of the places you are looking at and see what they say. As stated earlier, I would be hesitant to sign a lease and just ignore the no gun thing. That would piss me off. Asking would not.

TenDriver
February 17, 2013, 03:01 AM
[QUOTE=Cosmoline;8745323]The best thing to do is rent from small-scale landlords rather than through a PMC. They just want a quiet tenant who pays on time and usually don't try to foist five pages of boilerplate on you.[/QUOTE

Entirely true. I have a rental house. My rules are simple. Don't trash it. Pay me on time. If you can't pay me on time, keep me in the loop and we'll work with you.

You'd be surprised how many people have trouble with that few rules.

Not knowing where the OP is looking for an apartment, but I'd go find a house to rent for a while. We charge less than what a comparable apartment goes for and it seems we're not the only ones.

crazyjennyblack
February 17, 2013, 05:47 AM
I don't have much tolerance for landlords with long lease agreements. The more words there are, the more they are trying to screw you. Find someone friendly who is renting a small house. In my experience, the costs of renting a small house (at least in the Midwest) are about the same as the cost of a two or three bedroom apartment, with greater freedom and flexibility. I have never lived in an apartment longer than three months, simply because I don't like the nosiness, inflexibility, and loud neighbors.

In terms of the contract, Frank Ettin wonders why we have a society with no honesty. I wonder why we have a society in which people think they have any say over someone else's fundamental right. I'm fine in dealing fairly with people who deal fairly with me. However, these policies have little force.

I also believe that when you are forced to deal with someone who insists on such policies and cannot find another option due to some pressing concern, you have no obligation to comply, as they have come from a position of power to deny a fundamental right.

Rich vs. poor, landlord vs. renter, lender vs. debtor, govt. vs. citizen/subject, and attacker vs. defender are the oldest social conflicts we know. Our best fortune in this country is that life often offers us other options, and our best choice is to simply avoid those people and institutions that would put us in the position of these kinds of power struggles.

lemaymiami
February 17, 2013, 09:00 AM
I've read most all of the comments here and actually find both sides (Mr. Ettin on the strictly legal side and the man from Texas on the practical side...) have very valid points of view. My take is a bit sideways but comes from being the cop in between a wide variety of civil disputes before they wound up in court....

Landlords (and their attorneys) face a variety of difficulties any time that one of their tenants uses a firearm in any situation (lawful or otherwise). If they allow their tenants to keep weapons they end up on the "deep pockets" end of civil situations. If they prohibit weapons they discourage decent folk that happen to be gun owners.... As a result many include this sort of clause in their leases - not because of any intent to scrutinize and take action against their tenants - but certainly to place themselves in a better situation if a civil action results from the use of a firearm on their premises...
That local restaurant with the "no firearms allowed" sign is acting from a similar point of view.....

Here's how I see it.... in real life we all face choices and as adults will have to deal with the consequences. If every party to any contract strictly lived up to the agreements... there'd never be the slightest need for attorneys. Of course, that's just not how folks behave in real life. And if you're going to keep a firearm where you're not allowed - it's probably a pretty good idea not to mention it or display it, etc. (and a quiet prayer that it's never needed might also be in order.....).

Given those contradictions I would never have a problem with anyone making the choice to violate the part of any rental contract prohibiting the keeping of firearms in their own residence provided they realize the consequences if there were ever a problem that occurred afterward. Pretty simple to avoid eviction by moving before any civil action (if necessary). A choice to have the means to defend yourself and family and at the same time break one of the elements of a rental contract wouldn't be a difficult one for most of us... I can actually see the landlord's position as well since we live in a society where a pack of hungry lawyers is a possible outcome for any dispute.... not to mention the actual need to use a firearm to defend your life or another's.

Frank Ettin
February 17, 2013, 02:05 PM
I don't have much tolerance for landlords with long lease agreements. The more words there are, the more they are trying to screw you....If you want to know why contracts, not just leases, are getting longer and more involved, you have only to look at some of your other comments in your post.

...In terms of the contract, Frank Ettin wonders why we have a society with no honesty. I wonder why we have a society in which people think they have any say over someone else's fundamental right. I'm fine in dealing fairly with people who deal fairly with me....Honesty is not elastic. And dealing fairly is making the terms of the deal clear. Dealing fairly does not mean making the deal on your terms. If you don't like the terms, look elsewhere.

crazyjennyblack
February 17, 2013, 06:55 PM
+1 to lemaymiami… I really agree with the idea of the difficulty of the contradictions in this world, and you expressed our dilemma quite well. Things are seldom as “cut and dried” as people like to make it, and in fact that is one of the points I was trying to make. Things are easy when people are on the same level in terms of social power, but when differing levels come into play, things get sticky. I can see that my view of this aspect differs from Frank Ettin’s, and that is fine. I applaud his willingness to consider honesty as a kind of perfect duty that must always be adhered to. (However, if you read my first post, I did state that your first task if you don’t like lease terms is to look elsewhere, so on that point we agree.)

In the end, it is your decision to act according to your moral code, whatever that is. Act, and there are consequences to you and others no matter what you do.

Torian
February 17, 2013, 07:14 PM
I have found this to be the case in a couple apartment complexes that I've stayed in. Any time I've brought this up, I've been able to insert language into the lease like "lawfully owned firearms are permitted". The most these guys could do is try to evict you, but since you would be an otherwise good tenant paying their bills on time, I find it unlikely. That aside, I never proceed with just a verbal contract...I will write it in myself and ask them to sign off on it.

qwert65
February 17, 2013, 09:37 PM
Some good suggestions thanks guys I'm looking at houses to rent for now hopefully I won't need to consider breaking a lease

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