Video: Security guard saves lives with an AR-15 rifle


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Steve32
February 15, 2013, 06:41 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COZm7uCCjHM

:evil:

It's weird, because it's not a bank or a store. It's a tax preparation business office.

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Double Naught Spy
February 15, 2013, 06:59 PM
It turned out well, but shooting through the wall with friendlies down range is very unsafe. While it isn't a surprise the suspects were not hit, it was equally surprising the friendly wasn't hit.

r1derbike
February 15, 2013, 10:44 PM
It turned out well, but shooting through the wall with friendlies down range is very unsafe. While it isn't a surprise the suspects were not hit, it was equally surprising the friendly wasn't hit.Agreed. That lady was lucky she was on the ground when the guard shot through the wall.

BullfrogKen
February 15, 2013, 11:10 PM
Well so much for the premise that no one uses an AR-15 for defensive purposes, right?

r1derbike
February 15, 2013, 11:14 PM
Well so much for the premise that no one uses an AR-15 for defensive purposes, right?Bingo! Smart, very smart.

USAF_Vet
February 15, 2013, 11:17 PM
No, the anti's will just talk about how he "pumped rounds through the walls with blatant disregard for the lives of others."

r1derbike
February 15, 2013, 11:20 PM
Yeah, they won't get that the AR-15 is an ideal defensive weapon, will they?

Just the fact the guard was reckless with return fire.

OilyPablo
February 15, 2013, 11:20 PM
AR-15's work way better when you aim.

Stupid criminals deserve special treatment.

BullfrogKen
February 15, 2013, 11:22 PM
Oh, but he did exercise restraint.


Or did you miss the news when the LAPD fired over 40 rounds into a vehicle from AR-15s with two old ladies delivering newspapers on the hunt for Mr. Dorner . . . who wasn't shooting at them at the time?

This security agent got shot in the leg and shot, what, 2 rounds they said?


So . . . from that I propose he exercised a whole lot more restraint than LAPD did this week. And they weren't even being shot at in the process.


I'm not going to Monday Morning Quarterback his response. For all we know he accounted for the only person he knew in the room who was a friendly outside the shot area, and he could see her on the ground.

Tomcat47
February 15, 2013, 11:22 PM
^ .... yup! remember their hypocrisy is a no win situation... :uhoh:

Manco
February 15, 2013, 11:23 PM
It turned out well, but shooting through the wall with friendlies down range is very unsafe. While it isn't a surprise the suspects were not hit, it was equally surprising the friendly wasn't hit.

Point made about an AR-15 being used for defensive purposes, but I'm not convinced that the guard was actually aiming the thing more precisely than a general direction--it probably just happened to hit the wall randomly. This guy seriously needs more/better training.

Oh, but he did exercise restraint.


Or did you miss the news when the LAPD fired over 40 rounds into a vehicle from AR-15s with two old ladies delivering newspapers on the hunt for Mr. Droner . . . who wasn't shooting at them at the time?

This security agent got shot in the leg and shot, what, 2 rounds they said?

That's a definite point in his favor, but then again he's being held to a low standard of comparison here (not meaning all LEOs, but these guys at least).

r1derbike
February 15, 2013, 11:25 PM
It could have been muscle reflex from being injured, who knows? Just glad the employees are safe. Guard looked a bit worse for the wear, however.

USAF_Vet
February 15, 2013, 11:27 PM
It's not about what happened, its about how the media can spin it.

BullfrogKen
February 15, 2013, 11:27 PM
Yeah, but remember we're told that these AR-15s with "high capacity mags" fire what, dozens of rounds in a few seconds, right?


He fired two.


Sounds like he exercised some restraint to me.

BemidjiDweller
February 15, 2013, 11:30 PM
It is possible that the guard didn't mean to shoot though the wall, it's understandable if he was a bit too excited/startled. Doesn't mean it's okay though, to shoot though a wall blindly I mean.

MedWheeler
February 15, 2013, 11:36 PM
I'm also not convinced he was firing blindly through the wall. I'd be willing to bet that he had eyes on his target through the doorway, and simply missed (possibly due to being hit?)

Certainly none of us would be rattled enough by being under fire, and actually taking a hit, to miss a return shot, right? :D

SaxonPig
February 15, 2013, 11:36 PM
He shot THROUGH the wall with an AR?

Haven't there been several threads recently where proponents of using ARs for "home defense" denied that a round from an AR would penetrate a wall?

r1derbike
February 15, 2013, 11:55 PM
There was a lot of wallboard dust and something appeared to get through. Don't know if fragments or intact.

Seems I read elsewhere that an AR-15 round didn't penetrate as much as slugs, 00 buck, heavier rounds, etc.

Don't remember anywhere it said a standard 55gr. fmj AR-15 round wouldn't penetrate dry wall, however. I suppose that depends on how many layers of drywall it encounters.

Lots of flavors of AR-15 rounds that would penetrate more or less.

BullfrogKen
February 15, 2013, 11:55 PM
Let me tell you what I see.


I see a security guard who, 4 seconds after being shot, acquires his target and returnes fire with 2 rounds. One through the doorway and one that grazed it, under return fire. Immediately afterwards he charges to the entrance of the office building and secures it.

The news didn't report he fired again after that as they were retreating.

I see someone who, under fire and being hit, used an AR-15 to exercise an appropriate restrained response. He didn't indiscrimately "shoot through walls". He fired where the man who shot him was.


Those of you who want to Monday Morning Quarterback him . . . I'd like to see how you would do in his shoes. I'd like to see your training credentials.

I can tell you without any doubt I've seen professional officers and well-trained shooters return fire through doors and walls where they just took fire from. And I've never seen you at my shoothouse in an N.T.I. So until you can show me where you've been in his shoes and are competent in your training resumes to criticize what I see as extreme restraint, you ought to take a step back and consider the nonsense you're about to post.

usmarine0352_2005
February 16, 2013, 12:11 AM
Yep Bullfrogken.

Manco
February 16, 2013, 12:12 AM
Yeah, but remember we're told that these AR-15s with "high capacity mags" fire what, dozens of rounds in a few seconds, right?

He fired two.

Sounds like he exercised some restraint to me.

That is true, and it's valid enough to make a point against the antis.

Now switching for a moment to regular THR mode, he should not have been shooting unless he had targets lined up in his sights (if accurate point-shooting is not in his skill set and he could see the targets). Or maybe it was just the stress of the moment, which is understandable.

Switching back to RKBA-under-heavy-fire mode, this incident reminds me that most modern AR-15s are particularly well suited for mounting things like reflex sights and flashlights, for example. Speaking in general, such equipment can help keep bystanders safe.

I'm also not convinced he was firing blindly through the wall. I'd be willing to bet that he had eyes on his target through the doorway, and simply missed (possibly due to being hit?)

That's my assumption--I sure hope that he wasn't shooting blindly through a wall! :eek: I mean, there are times when you can shoot deliberately through barriers, but this wasn't one of them.

He shot THROUGH the wall with an AR?

Haven't there been several threads recently where proponents of using ARs for "home defense" denied that a round from an AR would penetrate a wall?

Well, they're absolutely wrong--typically .223/5.56mm rounds from an AR-15 would go through several interior walls, easily, like so:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm

r1derbike
February 16, 2013, 12:13 AM
I'm not here to judge anyone, but if you'll roll the video back and forth, one of the rounds (or fragments) exited the wallboard just to the upper left of what appears to be a thermostat to the right of the doorway. Just an observation. Nothing more, nothing less. 34 second mark.

Double Naught Spy
February 16, 2013, 09:39 AM
Let me tell you what I see.


I see a security guard who, 4 seconds after being shot, acquires his target and returnes fire with 2 rounds. One through the doorway and one that grazed it, under return fire.

Looking at the video carefully, you can clearly see the second round has been put through wall, not grazing the doorway. The hole in the wall is seen clearly at 34-35 seconds about 3-4" from the edge of the doorway, 1-2" to the right of the trim, just above the top left corner of the light switch/alarm box on the wall.

RiverPerson
February 16, 2013, 10:01 AM
Anti's will just say we don't need more than two rounds since that is all it took for him to run the couple off :eek:

Flintknapper
February 16, 2013, 10:03 AM
Certainly 'something less than' a well trained/practiced response on the part of the security guard (adrenaline dump considered), BUT the greater point is that when Force is met with Force, the bad guys usually bug out...as witnessed here.

Walkalong
February 16, 2013, 10:07 AM
Sounds like he exercised some restraint to me.Absolutely!

Now switching for a moment to regular THR mode, he should not have been shooting unless he had targets lined up in his sights (if accurate point-shooting is not in his skill set and he could see the targets). Or maybe it was just the stress of the moment, which is understandable.Well, he had an instant to react, under a very high stress situation, and while his rounds were not as well placed as he may have wished, he reacted properly, and with great restraint.

One thing not mentioned was his excellent decision about when to stop shooting, while wounded, and highly stressed. How many videos have you seen with a person who does not fire soon enough, and then fires randomly when the threat is over, possibly endangering others.

Manco
February 16, 2013, 12:32 PM
Anti's will just say we don't need more than two rounds since that is all it took for him to run the couple off :eek:

That's not always the case, though, and who are they to decide for us? That's our answer.

Justin
February 16, 2013, 12:37 PM
While not "internet perfect*", this looks like a good shoot in a messy situation, and I certainly can't argue with the outcome.


*You know, when a shoot doesn't go exactly the way you think it would go when you're posting on a thread on the internet from the safety of your locked home.

SaxonPig
February 16, 2013, 12:49 PM
I shot an armed robber through a plate-glass window. In a gunfight you shoot where the bad guy is, or you think he is, and you don't even see walls. The guy was shot at, was hit, and I have no criticism for his actions. I would have emptied the damn magazine.

But my original reply was concerning the fact that several people on this forum have told me directly that a 223 bullet will not penetrate the wall in a modern building and yet we it happen in the video.

Sam1911
February 16, 2013, 12:56 PM
...several people on this forum have told me directly that a 223 bullet will not penetrate the wall in a modern building...Clearly, there is a lot more to that than a simple statement that .223 won't penetrate.

Some bullet constructions common to .223/5.56mm do tend to break up and deflect when encountering several layers of various building materials. Some may have a tendency not to bore on through with large retained mass and on the original trajectory as slugs that are 3+ times heavier and more substantially constructed tend to do.

Some .223 rounds are indeed safe-ER vis-a-vis building penetration causing unintended injuries than other types of ammunition. But none of this is SAFE and none is a sure thing.

ngnrd
February 16, 2013, 03:04 PM
<applause>

+1 for the good guys!

Mikhail Weiss
February 16, 2013, 04:27 PM
Looks like the security guard did the best he could under trying circumstances, and after getting shot, no less.

And it looks like the security guard shot through the wall because he quite likely saw the gunman occupy that space twice. First time was after the gunman entered the office, and the second was after the gunman shot the guard.

Also of note, it appears the security guard was with someone else in the back room when the gunman entered, did not have a weapon immediately at hand, and was shot while retrieving said weapon. By the way, was the guard wearing some sort of bullet resistant vest?

r1derbike
February 16, 2013, 05:42 PM
Clearly, there is a lot more to that than a simple statement that .223 won't penetrate.

Some bullet constructions common to .223/5.56mm do tend to break up and deflect when encountering several layers of various building materials. Some may have a tendency not to bore on through with large retained mass and on the original trajectory as slugs that are 3+ times heavier and more substantially constructed tend to do.

Some .223 rounds are indeed safe-ER vis-a-vis building penetration causing unintended injuries than other types of ammunition. But none of this is SAFE and none is a sure thing.Yep, cannelured projectiles tend to tumble and fragment, after impact and penetration...but, all the rounds are really carrying the mail when exiting the muzzle. Still heady stuff.

9mmepiphany
February 16, 2013, 06:01 PM
I thought the guard did a good job of not just spraying his whole mag at the retreating robbers. I was also impressed that, after being shot, he still charged the door to make sure that they had actually fled...that really is a warrior mentality.

A few observations:
1. It did look like he had to move from his seat to retrieve his AR when the robber entered.
2. It does look like he is wearing soft body armor
3. Who knew that a tax preparation office was such a dangerous place
4. When tracking a moving target, it isn't unusual to track them as they move behind cover...that is why concealment isn't as good as cover
5. I can't tell if his shot penetrated the wall or if it was a fragment. In the test that I have observed...through drywall and water filled milk cartons...the 5.56x45mm penetrates less (much less) than handgun rounds

usmarine0352_2005
February 16, 2013, 06:05 PM
.

Good video. Guy gets shot in the leg and returns fire.


The bad guy came in shooting unprovoked. If the guard hadn't been armed I wonder if anyone would have been alive to call 911, and if they had, do you think the police would have gotten there in time?
.

HorseSoldier
February 16, 2013, 06:07 PM
Now switching for a moment to regular THR mode, he should not have been shooting unless he had targets lined up in his sights (if accurate point-shooting is not in his skill set and he could see the targets). Or maybe it was just the stress of the moment, which is understandable.

It looks to me like the security guard -- after apparently getting shot himself -- PID'ed a target and attempted to deliver a controlled pair. The target was dynamic/in motion, and the guard had just been wounded himself. Probably did a better job in the situation that most of the people monday morning quarterbacking the scenario.

There was a study done a while back reference allegations of "police shooting people in the back" which found that in the time it takes to interpret, make a decision to shoot, and pull the trigger by an LEO a suspect facing you with a gun leveled who was making the decision to run at the same time you were making the decision to shoot, could turn to run before the officer's gun went bang. Pretty scary stuff, since, obviously, juries are the ultimate Monday morning quarterbacks.

usmarine0352_2005
February 16, 2013, 06:13 PM
There was a study done a while back reference allegations of "police shooting people in the back" which found that in the time it takes to interpret, make a decision to shoot, and pull the trigger by an LEO a suspect facing you with a gun leveled who was making the decision to run at the same time you were making the decision to shoot, could turn to run before the officer's gun went bang. Pretty scary stuff, since, obviously, juries are the ultimate Monday morning quarterbacks.



Yep. So true and very important.
.

Tim the student
February 16, 2013, 06:36 PM
Although there is always room for improvement, that man did very well. I applaud him.

OilyPablo
February 16, 2013, 07:02 PM
One thing we learn for sure IMHO: in such a situation there is no luxury of time.

Yeah my tax guy's office just won't seem the same anymore!

Double Naught Spy
February 16, 2013, 07:05 PM
3. Who knew that a tax preparation office was such a dangerous place

Good question. Take a look at the business. It looks to be a converted and run-down house in a less than nice neighborhood.
http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/21202112/wild-shootout-at-inkster-tax-business-caught-on-camera

I am curious as to why they had armed security to start with, not implying there isn't a reason to have security. I wonder if the tax prep company gave out pre-refund loans and hence may have had considerable cash on hand.

As for the guard getting shot, the wound was not significant.
The security officer was grazed by a bullet but essentially uninjured.

Read more: Security guard in Inkster shootout speaking out, offering reward - KMSP-TV http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/21221341/security-guard-in-inkster-shootout-speaking-out-offering-reward#ixzz2L6bF7S00

9mmepiphany
February 16, 2013, 11:19 PM
U guys realize it was a drug dealer or something that was being robbed, right? Did u actually WATCH the video. Tax preparer my butt! And don't miss the 5th person who was hiding behind the door when it all started...
Well, that is quite a leap.

I not only watch the video, but I looked at the news report (http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/21202112/wild-shootout-at-inkster-tax-business-caught-on-camera) also

Now, I understand how the FOX News will sometimes not get all the facts correct, but the LE spokesman seems pretty comfortable while talking about it. You realize that not all tax prep places look like H&R Block or a CPA's office

If that was a drug dealer, it was the least barricaded drug house I've ever seen...I seen quite a few...and I've never seen a drug house with that many forms on the table either.

The second clip slowed down the action some. What I had thought was the security guard going for his AR against another wall was actually him spinning behind his chair as he rose from his seated position

ArfinGreebly
February 17, 2013, 01:09 AM
Runs toward the "sound of gunfire."

Kudos to the guard.

The bad guys enter, clearly expecting to find something worth stealing (conjecture: any premises with a security guard is worth hitting) and seemed to be in "overwhelm your victims" mode.

They met resistance and bugged out.

The guard did admirably. Didn't fire any more rounds than required to eliminate the threat, did not pursue beyond the premises entrance, kept his head under fire.

Dude can stand security in my counting room any time.

BullfrogKen
February 17, 2013, 01:41 AM
Yeah, and you do realize this was reported by the Detroit Fox affiliate, right? Is everyone here oblivious to the poverty and rampant crime that has overtaken that city?

Detriot is a down-and-out city with entire city blocks the police won't go into anymore. But that doesn't mean everyone living there is a drug dealer or a criminal now, does it?


Not all businesses rent spaces in strip malls or business districts. I've been to legitimate firms to do business in my own hometown that are little more than a residential dwelling converted into a couple business office spaces. In fact that's quite a common practice. I've been to plenty of such businesses in my lifetime. My wife has her hair done in one. We've both had massages done in one. The very CPA who does the books for my gun club has his business in a converted residential home, and when we do our books I smoke my pipe and he smokes his cigar during the proceedings in the office . . . because it's his office and we can.

Good question. Take a look at the business. It looks to be a converted and run-down house in a less than nice neighborhood

I am curious as to why they had armed security to start with, not implying there isn't a reason to have security. I wonder if the tax prep company gave out pre-refund loans and hence may have had considerable cash on hand.

As for the guard getting shot, the wound was not significant.

Perhaps a business in the midst of tax season had something to do with it.

Comments like yours reflect upon your upbringing and your lifestyle. Your statement underscores to me why people are tried in their local area, by people who know their local issues, with local residents sitting in the jury box.

After almost 4 years of economic devestation, nearly ALL of the city of Detriot is a run down area at this point. I'm not sure why you think this has any relevance.


There are plenty of people in this country who do cash business, like barbers, and hairstylists, and restaurants, who operate with cash and pay their bills in cash. Who are you to say they should operate differently? Or to suggest that they do so means that they operate as a shadow criminal enterprise? And if people who are owed a tax refund chose to take a cash advance from a preparer, who are you to say that's a bad business model?

There are still millions of people in this country who make an honest living who get paid in cash or through checks that don't get the option of a direct deposit paycheck by their employer. Bartenders, wait staff, taxi drivers, basically anyone you tip for service in your life probably gets paid a majority of their living in cash. They have every right to chose a check cashing alternative when a bank charges them excessive fees to hold an account that isn't tied to a direct deposit account.

I'm an economist by nature and an accountant by profession, and for people on the lower rungs of the economic ladder not having an established bank account makes sense. I've seen the empirical studies. For people who make an honest living that can't make those regular, recurring deposits - and especially direct deposits through their employer - not having a bank account is cheaper. Furthermore, some banks flat out don't want to deal with people on the lower rungs on the economic scale, and they go out of their way to discourage their business and deny them an account.


And I imagine those are the same people who are using a tax preparer like this one, especially in a city like Detriot.


Lastly, the comment about the shot to their Guard being insignificant . . .


Could you possibly be any more callous?


Let me bring you out to my range, shoot you in the leg, and let's see if you call it a insignificant wound.


Or . . . more relevant to this case . . . let me take some shots at you intending to kill you for money, yet I only hit you in the leg, and let's see if you chose deal with this as anything less than a threat to your life and everyone around you. Let's see if you ask the DA to drop the charges of attempted homocide and give me a pass because your wound was "insignificant".

My Godmother was shot in the hip by a shotgun when armed robbers tried to kill her in a convenience store hold-up. Because she survived, should her attackers not have been charged with attempted homocide?



Sometimes I'd like to think if I were charged with a crime because some District Attorney thought I used "excessive force" or went beyond "justifiable force" by my local DA I'd like to have members of THR on my jury to sit in judgement over me.



Frankly its threads like these that remind me I'd rather have completely ignorant jurors rather than "internet commandos" like those who've never been shot at but think they can read the internet blather on what constitutues a good shot, sitting in judgment over me.


Because otherwise decent people would see that what that man did harmed no one. And furthermore an armed, injured security man ran murderers off that day by his heroic actions.




Shame on all of you who would think otherwise.

FIVETWOSEVEN
February 17, 2013, 01:49 AM
He shot THROUGH the wall with an AR?

Haven't there been several threads recently where proponents of using ARs for "home defense" denied that a round from an AR would penetrate a wall?

I do believe you are taking people's claims that the light calibers penetrate less walls then any other personal defense round (they are right in that regard) and then saying that we think that dry wall will make a good back drop for those calibers.

Radagast
February 17, 2013, 07:04 AM
My simple take away from this? The security guard did his job.
Neither of the staff he was hired to protect were injured. ""Protect your principal". Big tick.
No money was stolen. Tick.
No major material damage done to the premises. Another tick.
He did not go Judge Dredd on the would be murderers. He secured the premises and stopped at that point. Big tick for following training, law and basic humanity. Big tick.

As for tactics? He fired through a wall at somewhere between chest and head height. The staff were on the other side of the door frame and below chest height. It was a safe shot.
He went to ground at the door, whether from being shot or deliberately we don't know, but he minimized his profile against return fire.

As for it being a drug house? Come off it. Neat and clean, well dressed staffed and a marked security car out the front? Nope.

Hapworth
February 17, 2013, 08:46 AM
Clearly, there is a lot more to that than a simple statement that .223 won't penetrate.

Some bullet constructions common to .223/5.56mm do tend to break up and deflect when encountering several layers of various building materials. Some may have a tendency not to bore on through with large retained mass and on the original trajectory as slugs that are 3+ times heavier and more substantially constructed tend to do.

Some .223 rounds are indeed safe-ER vis-a-vis building penetration causing unintended injuries than other types of ammunition. But none of this is SAFE and none is a sure thing.Bingo. Depends heavily on the type and construction of the particular round.

Honest question: Have we confirmed it was .223/5.56 being fired? Likeliest, of course, since it was an AR-15; but might've been 6.8 or 300 Blackout.

Hapworth
February 17, 2013, 08:48 AM
U guys realize it was a drug dealer or something that was being robbed, right? Did u actually WATCH the video. Tax preparer my butt! And don't miss the 5th person who was hiding behind the door when it all started...
Please do be specific: what are you basing this on?

OilyPablo
February 17, 2013, 08:57 AM
And don't miss the 5th person who was hiding behind the door when it all started...

Two bad guys - one blazing, the other didn't get his gun out
One security guy
Person in security guy's room
Person behind first door (on right)
Receptionist lady
Guy in chair

7 people, no?

josiewales
February 17, 2013, 09:00 AM
Let me tell you what I see.


I see a security guard who, 4 seconds after being shot, acquires his target and returnes fire with 2 rounds. One through the doorway and one that grazed it, under return fire. Immediately afterwards he charges to the entrance of the office building and secures it.

The news didn't report he fired again after that as they were retreating.

I see someone who, under fire and being hit, used an AR-15 to exercise an appropriate restrained response. He didn't indiscrimately "shoot through walls". He fired where the man who shot him was.


Those of you who want to Monday Morning Quarterback him . . . I'd like to see how you would do in his shoes. I'd like to see your training credentials.

I can tell you without any doubt I've seen professional officers and well-trained shooters return fire through doors and walls where they just took fire from. And I've never seen you at my shoothouse in an N.T.I. So until you can show me where you've been in his shoes and are competent in your training resumes to criticize what I see as extreme restraint, you ought to take a step back and consider the nonsense you're about to post. BINGO! Well said!

herkyguy
February 17, 2013, 11:09 AM
He was quick to respond, got into the fight, engaged his opponent and backed down from the fight when the threat was removed.

kudos to that guy. he did 'private security' good.

GLOOB
February 17, 2013, 09:38 PM
Obviously, the guard was aware that the owner of the business was sitting in a chair to the right of the doorway. He's in view, until the intruder brandishes the gun. At that point, the owner backs away towards the wall, out of view. He also saw the woman on the floor to the right. Since he can no longer see the owner, he can't know if/when he might move into the line of fire.

The man with the handgun does not flee when he sees the guard with the rifle. He shoots. Then he ducks behind the opposite wall, hugging that wall just for a split second, with his gun still pointed in the direction of the guard and owner. Just a bit later, the security guard's shots pierce the wall in that spot. Just a split second too late, because the guy jumped back and headed for the front door. That's probably the safest shot he could get off, and it wasn't way off the mark, at all. In the confusion, he probably wasn't even sure how many attackers there were. All he knew was his people were on the right.

So guy is shooting at you, then moves to the side of a doorway with the gun (only thing still visible) still pointing at you about 3 feet away... who here isn't going to take a shot through the wall?

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