Safe, Legal way to inform an aggressor you are carrying


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undeRGRound
February 16, 2013, 02:32 PM
I had a potential "situation" one morning, handled it well,
But I wondered how to safely, legally and TACTFULLY in
a non-escalating manner to inform someone you might
be carrying, so they could not later claim they were threatened
or that you "brandished" a weapon. I live in Indiana, BTW.

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Solo
February 16, 2013, 02:40 PM
You do not want legal advice from an internet forum.

joeschmoe
February 16, 2013, 02:40 PM
None. It is an escalation, it is a threat. Do not mention or draw until you feel threatened and are ready to fire. The only warning they get is the flash of steel before you fire.

(tactical advice, not legal, but IMO, they are the same here)

zxcvbob
February 16, 2013, 02:41 PM
Just kind of sweep your hand along the bottom of your cover garment (not too fast) and make sure it's straight and not in the way. The bad guy should be watching your hands and he'll pick up on it.

That's my theory anyway :) I've never had to test it.

Utryme
February 16, 2013, 02:43 PM
He's right. This ain't the place for legal eagles. I'm from Indiana also. Statute is easy to look at. The big deal in Indiana is "pointing a loaded firearm". A friend of mine got nailed for two reasons
1- he had alcohol on his breath, but only 1 beer
2- he was 3' off his property
3- he pointed it and admitted it was loaded

If you ask me, he was n the right as he was threatened y an angry mob of young adults. He had the misfortune of getting interviewed by the worlds dumbest cop here in Laporte.

undeRGRound
February 16, 2013, 03:23 PM
He's right. This ain't the place for legal eagles. I'm from Indiana also. Statute is easy to look at. The big deal in Indiana is "pointing a loaded firearm". A friend of mine got nailed for two reasons
1- he had alcohol on his breath, but only 1 beer
2- he was 3' off his property
3- he pointed it and admitted it was loaded

If you ask me, he was n the right as he was threatened y an angry mob of young adults. He had the misfortune of getting interviewed by the worlds dumbest cop here in Laporte.
Thx Everyone!

Of course I will check local/state etc. laws, and I was using the term "legal" in
the general sense. As in not saying "I'm gonna stick this 44mag up your ___"
or something stupid.

@ Utryme: Yes, looks like he made 3 mistakes. That close to home one should
get on their own property, or not leave it. Sounds like a good example!

mljdeckard
February 16, 2013, 03:30 PM
I subscribe to the Clint Smith advice of yelling "Stop!!" as you draw. The distinction is, you are still intending to act as you do it, it's not a warning so much as a reasonable butt-cover. You aren't waiting to see if deadly force is necessary, that line has already been crossed. It may well still de-escalate (if fact it almost always will,) but that is not the intent behind the action.

ZeSpectre
February 16, 2013, 03:46 PM
I wondered how to safely, legally and TACTFULLY in a non-escalating manner to inform someone you might be carrying

Ask for legal advice from a Lawyer, not on the internet. Therefore any following advice is just my opinion, not any sort of legal advice.

Reconsider your mindset.

A firearm is not a shield and should not be thought of as a deterrent (though it sometimes acts as one, depending on that effect will get you into some serious trouble). It is unwise IN THE EXTREME to use a firearm, or even the hint of one, to "warn off" a potential aggressor and the introduction of a firearm into ANY confrontational situation is ALWAYS an escalation.

Valid use of a firearm in a self-defense situation is pretty much restricted to determining the answer to the question "do I currently have a reasonable fear for my life?" which is often determined by an analysis of the "MMO" yardstick.
Means - Does this person have the means to harm me?
Motive - Does this person appear to have a motive?
Opportunity - Can this person actually get to me to carry out their threat?

If the answers are yes, then you are past the "warning" stage and it is probably time to defend yourself. If any of the answers are "no" then introducing (or hinting about ) a firearm is generally a bad idea.

Texan Scott
February 16, 2013, 04:02 PM
DON'T. The gun is not a negotiating tool. In addition to the 'tactical disadvantage' of giving advance notice of what they should watch for and increase the likelihood of a gun grab attempt, any mention of it will likely be seen as a threat and challenge ... it will just 'one-up' they other guy's macho man monkey dance. It will be an escalation, and witnesses will recall that you "threatened" that you had a gun.

The gun stays hidden until all efforts to deescalate and/ or disengage have failed, and potentially (likely) lethal violence is the ONLY way to extricate yourself.

shafter
February 16, 2013, 04:11 PM
Don't say anything. Use verbal skills to defuse the situation if possible. If the perpetrator attempts to use deadly force against you then you should use yours. A gun should not be displayed until you fear for your life.

Alaska444
February 16, 2013, 04:14 PM
I have been taught that unless it is lawful to shoot in self defense, it is unlawful to brandish a weapon. Tactically, alerting the other person you are armed gives them more of an advantage than tactical surprise gives you.

There are other methods of deescalating a situation that are perfectly legal and better to use. If you want folks to know you are armed then carry openly.

Otherwise, the situation would have to entail opportunity, ability, jeopardy and preclusion in some states as well.

By the way, police officers are held to similar standards, at least in some states where I have heard that if they even place their hand on their weapon and the situation was not such that they could lawfully draw and use the weapon, they can be reprimanded.

AnthonySmithXR
February 16, 2013, 04:15 PM
+1 to the three above. Don't do it. Don't fire warning shots either. If the gun is out, the decision has been made to shoot to live. If that's not the situation, don't even hint.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Shadow 7D
February 16, 2013, 04:32 PM
None. It is an escalation, it is a threat. Do not mention or draw until you feel threatened and are ready to fire. The only warning they get is the flash of steel before you fire.

(tactical advice, not legal, but IMO, they are the same here)
Why would you
when you need to draw your gun, you need to draw your gun, before that you should be working on ADEE (avoidance, disengage, escape evade)

YOU DON'T GIVE HIM THE UPPER HAND BY WARNING
and it is an escalation, if you are in a monkey dance, you just step in it, as his next challenge will be to mock you and tell you to draw....

(BTW, Monkey Dance is a specific meaning, google it and learn)

Deanimator
February 16, 2013, 05:43 PM
A violent aggressor doesn't DESERVE any "warning".

[In Ohio] outside of your home, you ATTEMPT to walk away. If he thwarts that attempt and unlawfully uses deadly force against you, sucks to be him.

[In Ohio] in your vehicle or home, it immediately and always sucks to be him. No duty to warn, retreat or anything else.

In civilized places, putting other people in immediate and credible fear of unlawful use of deadly force is dangerous. You should already know that. If you don't, or choose to disregard that, that's YOUR fault, NOT your victim's.

My goal is not to avoid shooting somebody.

My goal is to avoid having unlawful deadly force used on me.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. One of those "prizes" is potentially a bullet in the head.

Deanimator
February 16, 2013, 05:52 PM
Don't say anything. Use verbal skills to defuse the situation if possible.
If you think that'll work for you, go for it.

Personally, I don't want to engage with most NON-criminals. I sure haven't the SLIGHTEST desire to bandy words about with some knuckle dragging, atavistic thug. There's ABSOLUTELY no way I'm going to bow and scrape before one, other than as a diversion to allow me to employ deadly force in my own defense.

I have NOTHING to say to people like that. If they've got just two braincells to rub together, they'll let me walk away. If not, failures of the victim selection process can have dire and permanent consequences.

zxcvbob
February 16, 2013, 05:53 PM
What kind of "potential aggressor" are we talking about? A shady looking character who's watching you a little too intently from a distance? Or something more threatening?

NavyLCDR
February 16, 2013, 06:09 PM
Open carry.

undeRGRound
February 16, 2013, 06:18 PM
All good stuff!

ADEE is the best single piece from above, (IMO) thanx Shadow 7D!

I still have to take the courses and apply for the CCW, but I have the
weapons and will take The High Road.


I was referring to a potential road rage situation, where someone for example maybe thought I honked at them when it was someone else. Dude must have been having a really bad day... He got back in his car and slammed the door really hard after I told him it was meant for someone else. Go Figure? I did not act scared or mad, just rolled my window down so I could hear what he said. I thought he was having car trouble until he yelled at me! lol

radar1972
February 16, 2013, 07:33 PM
Shadow is correct in reply #13. You should always be working on ADEE.

And here's a good link that describes the Monkey Dance:

http://ymaa.com/articles/violence-dynamics

KTXdm9
February 16, 2013, 08:04 PM
Good read radar, thanks.

undeRGRound
February 17, 2013, 08:11 AM
thanks EVERYONE!

Lots to learn! I did not want to go out there armed with deadly force
and not having a definite plan of action. This is the place to find out, IMO

Texan Scott
February 17, 2013, 08:21 AM
We'd rather you learn it here from us than hear goodness knows what on the street from your "friends". ;)

undeRGRound
February 17, 2013, 09:30 AM
We'd rather you learn it here from us than hear goodness knows what on the street from your "friends". ;)
Thx Scott!

Besides, I check out the info I gather online, but I do appreciate the
warnings from some to not trust everything. Some folks do not check!

kentucky_Dave
February 17, 2013, 09:56 AM
I think the best plan is avoid / evade. No matter what. Misdirection, distraction, etc...it does not really matter, the Use of a mechanical advantage is a last resort only when all else has failed and it is truly on the line, regardless of what the legal definitions may be. If you have reasonably attempted to avoid a situation, tried to get away and are TRULY confronted with an unavoidable and credible threat on your life, then and only then should consideration be given to using your firearm. but then again, I can only speak for myself ...I am not a lawyer.

easyg
February 17, 2013, 11:17 AM
But I wondered how to safely, legally and TACTFULLY in
a non-escalating manner to inform someone you might
be carrying, so they could not later claim they were threatened
or that you "brandished" a weapon.
If someone was trying to kick your door down in the middle if the night, what would you say?
You would probably say something like "I have a gun, and if you come through this door I will shoot you."
A street encounter is really no different.
Say something like "I am armed and if you try to harm me I will shoot you."
Contrary to what some folks think, this is not illegal, nor is it an escalation of any potential confrontation.


By the way, police officers are held to similar standards, at least in some states where I have heard that if they even place their hand on their weapon and the situation was not such that they could lawfully draw and use the weapon, they can be reprimanded.
I don't know where you heard this but is is simply not true.

Bovice
February 17, 2013, 11:40 AM
Ask for legal advice from a Lawyer, not on the internet. Therefore any following advice is just my opinion, not any sort of legal advice.

Reconsider your mindset.

A firearm is not a shield and should not be thought of as a deterrent (though it sometimes acts as one, depending on that effect will get you into some serious trouble). It is unwise IN THE EXTREME to use a firearm, or even the hint of one, to "warn off" a potential aggressor and the introduction of a firearm into ANY confrontational situation is ALWAYS an escalation.

Valid use of a firearm in a self-defense situation is pretty much restricted to determining the answer to the question "do I currently have a reasonable fear for my life?" which is often determined by an analysis of the "MMO" yardstick.
Means - Does this person have the means to harm me?
Motive - Does this person appear to have a motive?
Opportunity - Can this person actually get to me to carry out their threat?

If the answers are yes, then you are past the "warning" stage and it is probably time to defend yourself. If any of the answers are "no" then introducing (or hinting about ) a firearm is generally a bad idea.
A firearm is not a shield? I think Smith and Wesson disagree. (M&P Shield... haha)

The people who say that if you pull, you HAVE to fire, are wrong. You can't just go into autopilot and start blasting away. Clint Smith's "say stop while shooting" seems silly to me. You should have said that before, give that a shot at de-escalation. If pulling your gun causes a submissive response, don't pull the trigger. Back away and leave. The idea is to avoid the hassle that comes with a shooting. As far as being charged with brandishing, get real. Are you going to sit there and wait for an hour to see what comes next? Leave.

Deanimator
February 17, 2013, 01:16 PM
The people who say that if you pull, you HAVE to fire, are wrong.
You don't HAVE to shoot if you draw, but you should ONLY draw if you INTEND to SHOOT.

If I draw my firearm, it's going to be because I face the immediate and credible threat of unlawful deadly force. I'm not drawing as a warning. I'm drawing as part of a seamless process of countering deadly force with deadly force.

If my assailant gives me an unambiguous indication of submission or flight, I won't shoot him. However, his window of opportunity to do so is so fleeting as to be virtually nonexistent. The odds of him being able to accomplish that in the time between me drawing and squeezing the trigger are on a par with the odds of him surviving a trip over Niagara Falls... WITHOUT the barrel.

I have ZERO legal duty to incur ANY risk to mitigate the effects of YOUR bad choices. Once you've thwarted my attempt to walk away, you're going to have a VERY bad day. And that's only if I'm outside my home, on foot. In vehicle or home, I have no duty to retreat AT ALL.

At least where I live, unlawful deadly force attacks are dangerous for the victim AND the assailant. If somebody doesn't like that, they shouldn't have chosen to BE the "assailant".

Fremmer
February 17, 2013, 01:41 PM
How about you call 911 and tell them to send the police immediately and that you legally ccw. Right in front of him so he can hear it. And then wait for the police.

Sol
February 17, 2013, 02:17 PM
You will know in your gut if you really have to use it...

More details of the situation would help.
Did the individual have a weapon?
Any threats of death or serious injury?
How many people?
I would keep my distance and would pull only if a weapon is produced or being surrounded.

Wouldn't want another Martin/Zimmerman fiasco would ya?

brickeyee
February 17, 2013, 02:34 PM
Of course I will check local/state etc. laws

Just remember that statute law is NOT the only law.

CASE ('common') law is also out there.

if the situation is that bad i plan on no warning.

Start to back away (distance is your friend), be ready as needed.

Sam1911
February 17, 2013, 02:35 PM
A few points to consider:

1) Telling someone you are armed, and either stating or implying that you will shoot them if... is a crime, usually a form of assault.

2) Drawing a firearm and displaying it (brandishing) or pointing it at someone is a crime, usually a form of assault.

3) Punching, kicking, striking, etc. someone is a crime of assault.

4) Striking someone with a blunt weapon, stabbing someone, or shooting someone is assault with a deadly weapon.

5) Any of the above are felonious crimes in (I believe) every state and jurisdiction in the USA.

6) Any of the above MAY be justifiable under very strictly defined circumstances as spelled out in your state's use of force and use of deadly force laws.

7) The key to surviving what happens AFTER the police arrive to investigate the incident is that you must have a clear and articulable reason why you HAD to perform that act in order to save your life or to stop one of a very few other serious crimes against you. You must be able to say, "I believed that THAT man was going to do X to me, right that instant, ..." and that must represent a reasonable, realistic belief.

Various states do allow you to present a weapon or indicate one in slightly broader circumstances than they allow you to SHOOT someone, but those are only slightly broader circumstances.

Sam1911
February 17, 2013, 02:37 PM
Further, there are some really good verbal and physical steps you can take to back someone off, or (more properly) ascertain their intents, and create some distance for yourself. We've had lots of threads on that sort of pre-altercation maneuvering.

beatledog7
February 17, 2013, 02:57 PM
The decision to draw = the decision to shoot. However, if during the split second before you press the trigger the perp acts in some manner that allows you change your mind, that's better for everyone. In 99.99% of situations, there is a better option than deciding to shoot, meaning by inference that the same figure applies to the decision to draw.

The point remains: if you're drawing you're shooting unless the bad guy gives you the opportunity to not shoot.

Kleanbore
February 17, 2013, 03:06 PM
A pretty good rule of thumb is that in no jurisdiction may anyone other than a sworn oficer lawfully cause apprehension in another party by discussing, displaying, or exposing a deadly weapon unless you would be lawfully justified in the use of physical force for defense or to prevent a forcible felony.

In one state, when such justification exists, one may lawfully tell the offending perty that one has a firearm, or place one's hand on it, or uncover it, but one may not lawfully draw.

In two other states, when such justification exists, one may lawfully draw and point a firearm.

Best to avoid confrontations and to avoid any kind of action that could be perceived as a threat.

easyg
February 17, 2013, 04:02 PM
A pretty good rule of thumb is that in no jurisdiction may anyone other than a sworn oficer lawfully cause apprehension in another party by discussing, displaying, or exposing a deadly weapon unless you would be lawfully justified in the use of physical force for defense or to prevent a forcible felony.

No one can even discuss deadly weapons if it might make another person apprehensive???

Where did you hear this?


Telling someone you are armed, and either stating or implying that you will shoot them if... is a crime, usually a form of assault.
No.
You might be charged with "communicating a threat" if you just tell someone you're going to shoot them, and rightfully so.

But telling someone who is threatening you that you are armed and will use deadly force to defend yourself is not a crime.

Deanimator
February 17, 2013, 04:12 PM
But telling someone who is threatening you that you are armed and will use deadly force to defend yourself is not a crime.
I could be mistaken, but isn't that PRECISELY what the NRA recommends in their "Personal Protection in the Home" course?

I seem to remember something to the effect of, "Police have been called. I have a gun. Don't enter or I'll shoot."

Frank Ettin
February 17, 2013, 04:55 PM
..But telling someone who is threatening you that you are armed and will use deadly force to defend yourself is not a crime....Actually, it can be.

The usual definition of assault (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/assault), based on the Common Law is:an intentional act by one person that creates an apprehension in another of an imminent harmful or offensive contact.

In the laws of some States this crime might be given another name. For example, in Alabama it's called "menacing." But by whatever name it is called, it is a crime in every State.

So a display of a firearm or telling someone you have a gun, when done for the purposes of intimidation or to secure his compliance, is, in all States, an assault of some type. You are effectively putting someone in fear of an imminent harmful or offensive contact, i. e., getting shot.

Now in all States it will be a defense against a charge of assault (or any similar crime) if you establish that your assault satisfied the applicable legal standard for justification.

In most States the standard for justifying a threat of lethal force is the same as for justifying the use of lethal force in self defense. In a few, it's a somewhat lesser standard. So in all States if you threaten lethal force you will need to be able to at least show prima facie such threat was legally justified, that is if you want to avoid a conviction for assault.

But telling someone who is threatening you that you are armed and will use deadly force to defend yourself is not a crime.
I could be mistaken, but isn't that PRECISELY what the NRA recommends in their "Personal Protection in the Home" course?

I seem to remember something to the effect of, "Police have been called. I have a gun. Don't enter or I'll shoot."But in the context of that NRA class one is being advised to say that to someone you is reasonably believed to have unlawfully and forcibly entered the actor's home, or is in the process of doing so. Those are circumstances which generally justify the use of lethal force.

easyg
February 17, 2013, 05:24 PM
Read on.

Per your linked passage...

The act required for an assault must be overt. Although words alone are insufficient, they might create an assault when coupled with some action that indicates the ability to carry out the threat. A mere threat to harm is not an assault; however, a threat combined with a raised fist might be sufficient if it causes a reasonable apprehension of harm in the victim.

Merely telling someone that you are armed and will use deadly force to defend yourself is not a crime.

Deanimator
February 17, 2013, 05:28 PM
But in the context of that NRA class one is being advised to say that to someone you is reasonably believed to have unlawfully and forcibly entered the actor's home, or is in the process of doing so. Those are circumstances which generally justify the use of lethal force.
GENERALLY, but not UNIVERSALLY.

There are places where you are required to flee from your own home.

Sam1911
February 17, 2013, 06:13 PM
Merely telling someone that you are armed and will use deadly force to defend yourself is not a crime.Oh good heavens. This is taking the point to absurdity.

Yeah, sitting around the lunch counter telling your pals, "I'm armed and will defend myself!" is not a crime. You aren't trying to intimidate someone, there is no perception of an assault about to happen to or by you.

However, confronting someone approaching you and giving them the hard stare with the words "I AM ARMED AND WILL DEFEND MYSELF!" certainly would be a crime if there was no lawful justification for your need to use that level of (non-contact) "force" to stop an attack. You are using the implied threat of your gun to secure the other person's compliance with your wishes (in this case to back off and/or not attack you).

Context is absolutely a factor that goes beyond black letter law.

easyg
February 17, 2013, 06:55 PM
Sam, you're wrong.

Merely stating, to anyone that you happen to meet, that you're armed and willing to defend yourself is not a crime.
Heck, you can wear a t-shirt that says "I'm armed and will use deadly force to defend myself" if you desire.
Just like you can put a sign on your front door that says "Property protected by Smith & Wesson" if you desire.

It's not the same as saying "I'm going to kill you!" to someone you just met on the street.
That would be conveying a threat for sure, but even so it is still not assault.
Words alone cannot be an assault.

Sam1911
February 17, 2013, 07:53 PM
Put into the context we're discussing, they absolutely can be. If you want to dance on the line of what you think you can't be arrested for, go right ahead.

In the end, what you're doing is telling someone something with the intention of instilling in them the idea that you are armed and will hurt them or kill them if they do or don't do whatever it is you don't or do want them to do. If you can pull that off without somehow including some indication that you're going to act on this (the raised fist in the example given in Frank's link...but that could be quite broad), perhaps you could skirt that definition.

But that's merely the common law basis of the principle, not the specific state law of any jurisdiction. Menacing, making terroristic threats, and so forth appear as crimes in a number of states and pointedly telling someone that you're armed -- in an attempt to scare them off of a course of action -- could fall into lots of them.

Kleanbore
February 17, 2013, 08:00 PM
Posted by easyg: That would be conveying a threat for sure, but even so it is still not assault.Please reread Frank Ettin's post.

Words alone cannot be an assault.While verbal threats alone do not justify the use of physical force, they can result in criminal charges.

smle41
February 17, 2013, 09:09 PM
I find myself generally agreeing with 'easyg'. Many years ago, I ended a confrontation by placing my hand on a holstered pistol, thereby letting the youths know that I was armed ( I did call the police, but they never came out nor called back, and after some time we eventually disposed of the film), but no shots were fired nor did the youths complain to the authorities. In the same city, and the same timeframe, being chased down a street and actually drawing the handgun, to have them scatter in retreat, no rounds used nor did the miscreants seem to desire filing charges for anything.
Of course, your experience and knowledge is yours, and in your area; it does seem that a fear of being arrested for something while engaged in self-preservation may be a tad over wrought... on the other hand, if one is facing incompetent officers or overzealous prosecutors, that might change the equation.
I also doubt, at least in Idaho, Wisconsin or Washington, that police would be reprimanded for placing their hands on their weapons. Perhaps in some areas...
Anyway, there is something to be said for the deterrent effect of a weapon.

LiENUS
February 17, 2013, 10:12 PM
Sam, you're wrong.

Merely stating, to anyone that you happen to meet, that you're armed and willing to defend yourself is not a crime.
Heck, you can wear a t-shirt that says "I'm armed and will use deadly force to defend myself" if you desire.
Just like you can put a sign on your front door that says "Property protected by Smith & Wesson" if you desire.

It's not the same as saying "I'm going to kill you!" to someone you just met on the street.
That would be conveying a threat for sure, but even so it is still not assault.
Words alone cannot be an assault.
easyg you seem to be confusing assault with battery. Battery involves physical contact. Assault in the united states does not involve physical contact. Threatening someone with words can very well be assault.

OptimusPrime
February 17, 2013, 10:19 PM
Strangely, carrying a CCW over the past few years has actually given me a much calmer outlook on potential dust-ups. Maybe I'm just older, but knowing that I've got the ultimate trump card in my pocket makes it very easy to walk away from any challenges I may have been the recipient of. Anything from walking across the parking lot after a concert, those road rage lane changers, or the punks in the Taco Bell parking lot, but I easily ignore them now with impunity.
10 years ago it would have been a fight. Now I don't even rise to the bait.

bikemutt
February 17, 2013, 10:50 PM
Maybe I've just been lucky but I prefer to avoid places notorious for trouble. Still, you never know when things could go wrong. The gun is reserved for when it goes wrong and no other way out is possible.

zxcvbob
February 17, 2013, 11:12 PM
easyg you seem to be confusing assault with battery. Battery involves physical contact. Assault in the united states does not involve physical contact. Threatening someone with words can very well be assault.


Hurt someone's feelings, go directly to jail. :rolleyes:

LiENUS
February 17, 2013, 11:32 PM
Hurt someone's feelings, go directly to jail. :rolleyes:
Hurting someone's feelings isn't the same as threatening with words. Also upon closer inspection I believe I may have misspoke there does need to be a bit more than threatening with words there must be some other circumstance to indicate a threat of violence. The presence of a weapon, a gesture, something like that. I personally try to avoid even making verbal threats of any form whether I have a weapon or not. Tends to avoid the possibility of a factor you didn't realize was in play.

Frank Ettin
February 18, 2013, 12:31 AM
Sam, you're wrong.

Merely stating, to anyone that you happen to meet, that you're armed and willing to defend yourself is not a crime.
Heck, you can wear a t-shirt that says "I'm armed and will use deadly force to defend myself" if you desire...So when were you admitted to the Bar, and how long have you been a lawyer?

As Sam and I have pointed out, context can be everything.

So when your statement reasonably creates a fear of imminent harmful or offensive contact, it indeed can be considered an assault. When you have made the statement for the purpose of intimidating someone and obtaining his compliance, which is exactly what the OP posited, it can be an assault.

zoom6zoom
February 18, 2013, 01:29 AM
I open carry, so the situation isn't likely to occur.

leadcounsel
February 18, 2013, 02:47 AM
Leave the situation.

If you can 'see' that things are escalating to the point where someone is going to possibly die, and you have the opportunity to leave, then you must.

Or just start open-carrying if it's legal.

Alaska444
February 18, 2013, 03:15 AM
Yup, if you carry, you MUST seek ways to deescalate situations or avoid them altogether. Actually that is good advice for everyone whether you carry or not.

Obviously, not all situations are avoidable which is quite different.

Sam1911
February 18, 2013, 06:28 AM
Obviously, not all situations are avoidable which is quite different.
True.

And somehow I think a point is being missed here that often gets lost as we work out the legal issues:

Someone seeing, or being informed, that you are armed CAN be a deterrent. And deterrence is always better than being attacked or having to shoot someone.

What I'm pointing out is that you STILL have to have some articulable reason why you had to do that thing (because otherwise it is a crime to threaten someone, even by implication) and that is tricky ground in the early stages of an event when deterrence is still likely to be possible.

Some hold that your gun should NEVER be known about until it is pointed and the trigger is coming back. If the aggressor stops what he's doing completely and immediately, you may not complete the shot, but otherwise, if you have to draw you are intending to fire.

Given all the other "tools in the toolbox" that we should practice regarding de-escalation, avoidance, verbal and body language cues, etc., I think it is more prudent to follow a plan that does not include flashing or indicating your weapon until it is coming into play.

While the sight of a gun can be an effective deterrent, that's a dangerous card to play and there are better ways to achieve the same effect in most cases, that don't leave you overstepping the bounds of the law, yourself, in order to back someone off.

Shadow 7D
February 18, 2013, 06:37 AM
I will say it again, I said it before

When you pull a gun it's binary, no matter what, you now are in a DEADLY situation
you will get the criminal that knows how far he can push it, who doubts your intent, who is USED to having people flash guns around

and when you escalate it by introducing deadly force,
his response 'what are you going to do, shoot me'
You just took another step in the monkey dance...

Sam1911
February 18, 2013, 06:42 AM
You just took another step in the monkey dance...
And that's a good way to put it.

The gun is only a tool to stop an attack, not part of a threat display to back someone down.

The fact that it sometimes does "win" the monkey dance has saved lots of lives, surely, but that doesn't mean doing so is what we should plan for.

Shadow 7D
February 18, 2013, 09:11 AM
Right and a point of the monkey dance, is you don't win by dancing (and this goes to the interview process also) you win by walking away or STOPPING it.

The trick is to show that you will not attack, while at the same time presenting certain defeat (price too high to pay) for them to attack, fail the interview, decline the dance, exit stage left...

beatledog7
February 18, 2013, 09:52 AM
Mindset is everything when you carry a firearm. Whenever you carry, you must go about your business in a manner that, first and foremost, does everything humanly possible to avoid a situation where you might feel the need to draw.

That goes for when you're not carrying as well.

The integration of a properly conceived and practiced self-defense mindset with diligent situational awareness allows us to avoid or de-escalate nearly every situation in which the need for engaging in overt self defense measures could arise.

clamman
February 18, 2013, 10:31 AM
I work a counter during the day. Last week a person came in and asked for a job. I said were not hiring. He kept coming, so I put my hand on the gun under counter because he was sending bad vibes to me. As soon as he saw that motion he turned and left the premises fast! There was no doubt he was planning on robbing me.

Hapworth
February 18, 2013, 10:59 AM
This is an excellent thread with many informed replies and advice. Closing in on sticky worthy.

Linked is a similar thread from another forum; first post is superb and fits in well in this discussion; worth the read...

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1285487_Street_robberies_and_you___The_Basics.html&page=1

zxcvbob
February 18, 2013, 11:46 AM
I work a counter during the day. Last week a person came in and asked for a job. I said were not hiring. He kept coming, so I put my hand on the gun under counter because he was sending bad vibes to me. As soon as he saw that motion he turned and left the premises fast! There was no doubt he was planning on robbing me.

And yet some would say you should be arrested for even suggesting by your motions that you might be armed. Good thing the would-be robber didn't run to the cops and report you! (of course, they probably know him...)
"I AM ARMED AND WILL DEFEND MYSELF!"

How about instead saying something like "I DON'T WANT ANY TROUBLE" while putting your hand on your still-covered gun? You're trying to back away from the Monkey Dance while showing the other guy that maybe he should do the same. I'm still trying to figure out the best way to do that...

LiENUS
February 18, 2013, 11:57 AM
And yet some would say you should be arrested for even suggesting by your motions that you might be armed. Good thing the would-be robber didn't run to the cops and report you! (of course, they probably know him...)


How about instead saying something like "I DON'T WANT ANY TROUBLE" while putting your hand on your still-covered gun? You're trying to back away from the Monkey Dance while showing the other guy that maybe he should do the same. I'm still trying to figure out the best way to do that...
When I worked at the prison they taught us in defensive tactics to put our hands up about chest height open hands palms facing the person and give them direct verbal orders to stop no "I'M GOING TO KILL YOU IF YOU DONT STOP" but "hey man stop this, theres no need for this"
This wont work if the person has a gun themselves but for your average mugging situation it puts your hands at a good height to block an initial blow, gives you the opportunity to use open handed control tactics if the situation presents itself and looks really freaking good from the perspective of you arguing self defense should it turn out someone was videoing the whole ordeal.
That said, if the aggressor has a knife already in their hands or a weapon or you are older/sick/handicapped or in some way unable to react as strongly or as swiftly as they are you'll want to find another tactic. For your average 20 year old male in decent shape, this is about the ideal stance for dealing with an aggressor it is stepping along with the monkey dance to some degree but it has the remarkable effect of making most people step down from the monkey dance quite fast. I didn't mention feet positioning but it's actually quite similar to shooting stance.

Sam1911
February 18, 2013, 12:11 PM
And yet some would say you should be arrested for even suggesting by your motions that you might be armed. Good thing the would-be robber didn't run to the cops and report you! (of course, they probably know him...)
Noooooo. Putting your hand under the counter doesn't bring the word or the visual of GUN into the discussion. That is different.

Now, guy walks into your shop and asks about a job and you say "Not hiring," but he decides to approach the counter to tell you how great a worker he is and how much he needs the work, etc. ... and you flash a gun or make some statement that indicates you might shoot him?

Heck yes, he can go to the police. Fine lines, here, but not invisible ones.

Frank Ettin
February 18, 2013, 12:16 PM
And the points are:

What you do needs to be driven by exactly what's happening and how, and your exercise of good judgment under the circumstances. There's no "if-that-than-this" formula.


Whatever you choose to do, you might be called on it. So you want to be able to articulate why you thought you needed to do what you did.

Trent
February 18, 2013, 12:23 PM
And the points are:

What you do needs to be driven by exactly what's happening and how, and your exercise of good judgment under the circumstances. There's no "if-that-than-this" formula.


Whatever you choose to do, you might be called on it. So you want to be able to articulate why you thought you needed to do what you did.

^^ Having personally been through the wringer once, this is very good advice.

EDIT: After that incident (12+ years ago), I made the decision that if the first indication a person trying to kill me is ever going to have that I am in possession of a firearm, is muzzleflash.

Deanimator
February 18, 2013, 01:19 PM
Right and a point of the monkey dance, is you don't win by dancing (and this goes to the interview process also) you win by walking away or STOPPING it.
Javier Bardem was scary in "No Country for Old Men" precisely because he DIDN'T do the "monkey dance". He didn't scream or get excited. He just told you what he wanted. After that it was up to you.

The more experienced predator knows when he's booted the victim selection process. If he wanted to work for his money (never mind die for it), he'd get a job. He'll pick a rabbit over a saltwater crocodile given the choice.

Serious druggies? They don't know what they're doing themselves half the time. Reading your intentions accurately is a stretch. Don't get ensnared in their gibberish, which is usually half victim distraction, half self-directed peptalk.

As I said previously, I don't want to engage with most non-intoxicated, non-criminals. You can be sure I'm not wasting syllables on low-lifes. I'm polite, in a formalistic, Japanese sort of way. I'm NOT friendly, and not ashamed of it either. "I've got nothing for you." in an emotionless monotone is equivalent to Hamlet's soliloquy for me. If it's appropriate, I'll attempt to leave. It's well advised to let me.

jmorris
February 18, 2013, 02:04 PM
With a bullet once you have exhausted all other means to escape the situation and your life is now dependent on your action.

Why would you want to inform someone that intends to do you harm that you have a tool that they could use against you. I guess this is how people get shot with their own gun.

Deanimator
February 18, 2013, 03:50 PM
Why would you want to inform someone that intends to do you harm that you have a tool that they could use against you. I guess this is how people get shot with their own gun.
Possibly.

More usually, it's a combination of:

Lack of preparation - Empty chamber, poor carry method, poor quality of tools (firearm, holster), lack of familiarity with ones tools, lack of training, etc.
Lack of resolve - A greater commitment to avoiding violence than avoiding harm to oneself, a lack of determination to prevail no matter the cost, etc.

In a very large portion of the instances where I've heard of an armed crime victim being harmed, especially with his or her own weapon, the victim demonstrated a greater concern for avoiding harm to their assailant than to themselves. Attempts to "negotiate", displaying the firearm without using it, warning shots, etc., are all hallmarks of this irresolution.

In a deadly force encounter, hesitation or indecision can be fatal to the victim.

undeRGRound
February 22, 2013, 08:54 AM
MOST Excellent Advice, everyone!
Like my wife noted, I drove much safer when I bought
a Radar Detector, as I was being much more aware of
everything around me. It was a tool for safer driving,
Alerting me to monetary hazards (lol) but also road
hazards too. Sometimes a LEO will aim the radar towards
oncoming traffic, constant on, to alert the drivers.

I believe and hope to maintain a similar mindset with CCW.
I am already doing this on many levels!

undeRGRound
February 22, 2013, 09:40 AM
When I worked at the prison they taught us in defensive tactics to put our hands up about chest height open hands palms facing the person and give them direct verbal orders to stop no "I'M GOING TO KILL YOU IF YOU DONT STOP" but "hey man stop this, theres no need for this"
This wont work if the person has a gun themselves but for your average mugging situation it puts your hands at a good height to block an initial blow, gives you the opportunity to use open handed control tactics if the situation presents itself and looks really freaking good from the perspective of you arguing self defense should it turn out someone was videoing the whole ordeal.
That said, if the aggressor has a knife already in their hands or a weapon or you are older/sick/handicapped or in some way unable to react as strongly or as swiftly as they are you'll want to find another tactic. For your average 20 year old male in decent shape, this is about the ideal stance for dealing with an aggressor it is stepping along with the monkey dance to some degree but it has the remarkable effect of making most people step down from the monkey dance quite fast. I didn't mention feet positioning but it's actually quite similar to shooting stance.
This is basically a good answer to my original question as
it was in my mind, if not in words. Exactly what I wanted.
I had a situation once about 3 years ago where a guy's Ex
was talking to me, (in part at least to get him P.O.'ed) and
he came close to my personal space, making threats. Total
Monkey Dancer. 110%! I was in full De-escalation mode, but
nearly had to try something else!
I was ready for the bums rush but he held off.
Good thing for both of us, no jail trips or hospital visits.
These young Turks are not all Stupid, I guess! Lol

So I need to keep learning...

undeRGRound
February 22, 2013, 12:13 PM
And yet some would say you should be arrested for even suggesting by your motions that you might be armed. Good thing the would-be robber didn't run to the cops and report you! (of course, they probably know him...)


How about instead saying something like "I DON'T WANT ANY TROUBLE" while putting your hand on your still-covered gun? You're trying to back away from the Monkey Dance while showing the other guy that maybe he should do the same. I'm still trying to figure out the best way to do that...
Meant to also include the above

sonick808
February 22, 2013, 03:00 PM
AZ has a "legal brandishing" law on the books, but i don't trust it for one second.

If you can't divert your path or talk your way out, RUN.... freaking RUN.

Past that, you have to decide if your life is in danger.

joeschmoe
February 22, 2013, 03:56 PM
The safest and most legal method to inform someone who is threatening you is to shoot them. Now they are informed.

4season
February 22, 2013, 05:48 PM
I can't remember the article but I read somewhere, from a "self-defense specialist" that sometimes merely unzipping your jacket, un-tucking your shirt, or something else that would indicate you are clearing room to draw your weapon can be enough to make an attacker think twice. May not be reliant to your particular situation but I can see in a "walking down a dark alley" situation where this could be a good deterrent.
Of course I firmly believe that your best self defense weapon is between your ears. Keep your head about your and your gun is very secondary.

Cosmoline
February 22, 2013, 06:33 PM
I think the best plan is avoid / evade. No matter what. Misdirection, distraction, etc.

This is a good plan in most cases. What you don't want to do is get locked in some kind of argument with the nutcase about who's going to win a fight. Just step away and exit ASAP, making no threats.

The safest and most legal method to inform someone who is threatening you is to shoot them. Now they are informed.

Threatening you with imminent unlawful deadly force. Not the mere threat of future harm.

I'm not a big fan of any warnings at all, even the "STOP" command often yelled in training. If the light is green, you shoot or die. If the light changes you hit the brakes.

REDMASTA
February 22, 2013, 07:06 PM
If im off my property I would never mention my firearm and will not draw unless I see a weapon or think my life is in immediate danger (This does not mean just because someone wants to fight with you). The legal system will beat the hell out of you a lot worse than knuckling up with some ass hat. Drawing or even mentioning im armed really would have to be a last ditch option for me...

Trent
February 23, 2013, 12:34 AM
I'm not a big fan of any warnings at all, even the "STOP" command often yelled in training. If the light is green, you shoot or die. If the light changes you hit the brakes.

Same here. In the NRA Personal Protection in the Home course they train to yell something like "Get out, I've got a gun and I've called the cops", or some variant.

I would prefer NOT to give my position / location, disposition, armament status, alertness level, or strategy away to an unknown. Those are all advantages I have against an intruder.

For all they know, I'm asleep, unarmed, unaware of their presence, and in a location "somewhere" in the house.

I want to keep it that way as long as possible.

smle41
February 23, 2013, 02:44 PM
I am thinking that between zxcvbob and 4seasons, we may have come the closest to a safe and legal way of "informing" the potential aggressor that we are armed.
In one instance, putting my hand on the gun while in it's pocket holster was enough to make two adversaries think about their victim selection process again. We need not overtly, verbally, state we will fire for the lowlifes to figure it out (reaching under the counter, for example).

thorazine
February 24, 2013, 05:19 AM
Safe, Legal way to inform an aggressor you are carrying

Would the Clint Eastwood finger gun approach be legal?

http://chairsoft-press.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/jc_clint_eastwood-1911.jpg

undeRGRound
February 24, 2013, 07:57 AM
Would the Clint Eastwood finger gun approach be legal?

http://chairsoft-press.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/jc_clint_eastwood-1911.jpg
Is that from Gran Torino?
Seems I need to see that...

Frank Ettin
February 24, 2013, 11:03 AM
Looks like it's winding down.

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