BTHP


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Mencius
February 17, 2013, 07:46 PM
What do you think of using boat tail hollow points for deer hunting in a 308? I was thinking of using the 168 grain bullets.

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Bio-Chem
February 17, 2013, 08:08 PM
Which bullet are you talking about exactly?

v8stang289
February 17, 2013, 08:10 PM
If they are match bullets then I wouldn't because they most likely will not expand and will perform no differently than a FMJ. If they are designed for expansion and hunting large game then they should be fine.

rcmodel
February 17, 2013, 09:11 PM
I am not a big fan of BT bullets for hunting, unless they are bonded core, partition, or otherwise core-locked somehow.

Otherwise, the boat tail jacket acts just like a Jacobs chuck in a drill press.

One whack to loosen it from the taper friction fit, and the tool falls out.

The same will happen to the lead core of a boat-tail bullet when it hits a game animal and starts to mushroom.

IOW: Core / jacket separation.

rc

jmr40
February 17, 2013, 11:21 PM
All bullets are designed to work a certain way. Any can be effective if used properly. You have described many match bullets designed for target shooting. I know some have used them for hunting successfuly. I'm not willing to take that chance. The Berger Hunting bullet is the exception. It is basically what you have described, but with a thinner jacket to expand quickly.

Partitions, Accubonds, an Barnes TTSX bullets are designed to penetrate. They do a good job at that, but expansion is not as good as with some others. They kill game just fine, but you don't get the drop in their tracks reaction as often.

I have no problem with BT bullets such as Hornady SST's, Nosler Ballistic Tips or Berger Hunting bullets as long as the shooter understands how they work. They tend to give fairly shallow penetration, but explosive expansion. As long as you put one in the lungs they will drop game very quickly. FWIW, I'd use the 168 Berger hunting bullet, not the match bullets in my 308. They are not the bullet you want for shooting fleeing game in the butt. Or for shooting larger game. These are what the Partitions, Accubonds, and TTSX bullets are designed for.

Choose the right bullet for the job and use it correctly and they all work

Art Eatman
February 17, 2013, 11:31 PM
After a bunch of years of messing with all sorts of 30-caliber bullets, I figure that in a .308, any 150-grain flat-base which gives decent groups around one MOA will do just fine to 400 yards, easily.

HPBTs can easily make more mess than was intended. Not always, of course, but it sometimes turns out to be Yuck City. :)

Grumulkin
February 18, 2013, 05:44 AM
Which bullet are you talking about exactly?
That is the question.

As some posters have mentioned, some BTHP bullets act more like solids; not that that's an always bad thing. Berger makes BTHP bullets specifically for hunting and I can attest that they work well. Some Barnes TSX bullets are also of BTHP design; no problem there either. Also, all those pretty bullets with the plastic tips are essentially of hollow point design. For those who think the plastic tip does more than make them pretty, protect the bullet tip or provide a slightly better ballistic shape, think again.

If the desire for a BTHP design is for better perceived long range performance, I would say don't bother unless ranges are expected to be 500+ yards.

osprey176
February 18, 2013, 07:46 PM
Most 168 lead core bullets are match bullets.The 165's are usually the game bullets.Be sure you use bullets designed for the task at hand. I spent several hours tracking a deer hit twice through the lungs with a 168 hpbt a few years back.I needed to finish the deer after finding it.The wounds were all the same size,entrance,and exit.Doesn't' t matter how good the load groups if the bullet won't do the job when it gets there.

Kachok
February 18, 2013, 08:07 PM
Serria BTHP aka Match Kings. NO, does not expand or yaw reliably at all.
Berger VLDs. YES but only the Hunting version
Barnes TSX. HELL YEAH Awsome terminal performance.
Nosler Custom Competition. No idea never used them. Would not chance it, they were not designed for that.
Hornady Match. Also no idea.

splattergun
February 18, 2013, 09:59 PM
Most, if not all, states require expanding ammunition for hunting. If your choice is, for example, between Sierra Match KIng v Sierra Game King, choose the SGK for hunting, SMK for competition. Unless you really like tracking deer wounded by a clean pass-thru instead of walking up to an animal killed by significant trauma from a well-built game bullet.

Kachok
February 18, 2013, 10:19 PM
Pass through or blow up, I have seen SMKs do both (not of my shooting) if they do yaw the thin jacket comes apart and you have a fragmentation device, if it blows up in the vitals it can make for a quick kill but that requires a healthy dose of luck and is not even remotely reliable from what I have seen, should that yaw happen early on that explosion will never reach the vitals and all you have done is make a really nasty flesh wound. If they don't yaw or yaw late you get a clean pass through and a fatally wounded animal you will be tracking for miles. Far too unreliable for my liking, I'll stick with the Game Kings they are remarkably reliable and effective, in fact too effective for these southern whitetail out of a 30-06.

Grumulkin
February 18, 2013, 11:23 PM
Interestingly, solids are used for the biggest animals in the world; why?

Some hunters use muzzleloader and shotgun projectiles that don't expand.

Arrows don't expand.

It's also interesting that some admantly want good penetration of a bullet while others want great expansion and a bullet that expands inside the animal, does't expand and doesn't pass through. Fortunately, there is a plethora of bullet designs that should be able to satisfy both parties.

Kachok
February 19, 2013, 12:43 AM
Yes monolithic solids designed to create serious damage without expanding, you cannot compare the terminal damage from a large caliber flat nose solid to a 7mm pointy boat tail spritzer, night and day difference. Don't you think that if DU tipped armor piercing rounds made for as much trauma hunters would have been using them a long time ago? Large caliber solids are a whole different game, I can try to track down some of the studies I have read if you are interested.
BTW I have arrow heads that expand, they are called mechanical broad heads you can get them at Wal-Mart :)

Mencius
February 19, 2013, 09:22 AM
Thanks for the thoughts guys. I guess I have been kinda in search of a bullet that will be good for everything; hunting, punching paper, etc. I think I am going to go the other way and just get soft points or some sort of hunting ammo. I like the Remington Core Lokt and had two quick kills with them this year. Seem like they are reasonably priced as well.

Actually, once this ammo hysteria dies back down I plan to get several hunting rounds in the ~165 grain range and see which prints the best and then start "accumulating" that.

At the moment any 308 that is reasonably priced seems difficult.

Grumulkin
February 19, 2013, 11:26 AM
Yes monolithic solids designed to create serious damage without expanding, you cannot compare the terminal damage from a large caliber flat nose solid to a 7mm pointy boat tail spritzer, night and day difference. Don't you think that if DU tipped armor piercing rounds made for as much trauma hunters would have been using them a long time ago? Large caliber solids are a whole different game, I can try to track down some of the studies I have read if you are interested.
BTW I have arrow heads that expand, they are called mechanical broad heads you can get them at Wal-Mart :)
Let me point out that not all monolithic solids are flat nosed and there is no requirement for hunting dangerous game that they be flat nosed. The reason they are used is for their better penetration. So, in some applications, using a solid in a small bore cartridge would be best. Granted, am expanding bullet creates more trauma and should kill faster provided it reaches vital organs.

I know about mechanical broadheads by the way but as far as I know there is no State where bow hunting is allowed where there is a requirement to use them. In addition, I would wager that any solid bullet out of a centerfire rifle or handgun will cause as much if not more trauma than a broadhead.

I believe that Remington Core-Lokts are a greatly under appreciated bullet. I use them in a 270 Winchester with excellent results both in accuracy and knock down ability. Of the 3 deer I've taken with them, 2 were DRT and the other only went maybe 10 feet but there wasn't bullet pass through which would be a problem for some.

Jim Watson
February 19, 2013, 11:44 AM
A friend has hunted with Sierra BT Game Kings, not Match Kings, for years.
He says the cores do separate from the jackets.
How does he know?
He digs them out of DEAD animals.

MCgunner
February 19, 2013, 12:01 PM
I shoot Nosler 150 BTs at 2800 fps. I don't have a problem with meat damage and I've penetrated ONE 8 point from butt to neck, probably 4 feet of deer, with an exit wound. Never recovered a bullet even from a hog. Folks tell me that the BT is too explosive for deer and should NEVER be used on a hog. I just laugh at 'em. They have been improved over the years, but I've been shootin' 'em for 15 years and not seen a problem with 'em. I like the BCs. :D

I shoot game kings in my .257 Roberts and my 7 mag. They ARE kinda explosive, especially at 3200 fps from the 7 mag, but I ain't had a deer walk away from one, yet.

MCgunner
February 19, 2013, 12:36 PM
Oh, dang, sorry, this thread is about hollow points. Well, the BT is a hollowpoint, just has a plastic tip stuffed in the point. :D

Most of the hollow points I've seen are for match, would not trust one to open up. Wolf markets a HP for the 7.62x39, worthless as a hunting round regardless of what they claim. I prefer soft points for hunting and in that caliber, affordable (read cheap), the 154 soft points work.

Were I the OP, I'd forget about HPs for hunting except in .22LR for rabbits.

Kachok
February 20, 2013, 02:50 PM
O
Were I the OP, I'd forget about HPs for hunting except in .22LR for rabbits.
What is wrong with Barnes and Sierra HP bullets? I don't ever hear anyone knowledgeable bad talking them ever, heck I use them. Had good luck with a few poly tips too, not going to say they best my Game Kings, but I would never hesitate to use a 6.5mm Ballistic Tip for deer again, impressive performance to say the least.

MCgunner
February 20, 2013, 03:17 PM
The 168s he's talking about, I just figured Sierra since it's a common match bullet, I've never seen 'em in a game bullet, only the Match Kings. The Game King is a soft point boat tail with similar BCs and I shoot them in two of my rifles. They works great. :D If it's made for shooting game, they probably work. If it's made for match, no.

Barnes, sure, I've used 140 Barnes on hogs, work great. That's what they're designed for, expansion to the end of the hollow cavity, then it stops. It's an all copper bullet unlike the Match Kings I think the OP is referring to, whole nuther animal.

I shoot a 150 Game King in 7mm. I have 150 Match Kings in 7mm I used to shoot in IHMSA from a 7mmTCU. Two completely different bullets with different purposes. The Match Kings are tack drivers, but I would doubt they'd expand. The hollow in the point is only there to reduce weight at the front of the bullet, gives it better balance and, thus, accuracy. When we're talking bench rest, 0.01 MOA could mean a win or a loss.

Kachok
February 20, 2013, 06:57 PM
Oh OK I thought you meant any hollow point, in which case I would have to enthusiastically disagree, those Sierra Game King hollow points are devastating on game, maybe too much so. I only have them for my 30 cals but I know they make them for 6.5mm and 7mm as well.
I think we can all agree that match bullets belong on the range and not in the field. Some would try and make a case for the A-Max for 600+yd shooting because they expand at such low speeds, but most of us don't shoot game that far out, I sure don't.

mnhntr
February 20, 2013, 07:09 PM
I have shot several deer with 142gr 6.5mm Sierra Match kings and they all dropped in their tracks. Also shot a deer and several yotes with Hornady 75gr BTHP match and had the same results. As for the people saying these do not expand or perform like a FMJ, thats BS. These are thin jacketed bullets that will come apart hitting heavy bone. The bigger concern is Shot placement. The best bullet does no good when put in the guts of a deer. I shoot them in the neck and do not need to track them.

Grumulkin
February 21, 2013, 06:57 AM
http://www.orchardphoto.com/i3zo190.jpg

Notice the exit wound on this groundhog. It was hit with a 190 gr. Sierra Match King out of a 300 Win. Mag. Obviously no expansion; probably because there was no heavy bone to hit.

http://www.orchardphoto.com/i19zsi202.jpg

Notice the exit wound on this pronghorn antelope made with a 300 Weatherby and a 168 gr. Berger VLD. This happened in the days before there was a distinction between target VLDs and hunting VLDs. Another obvious case of no bullet expansion.

http://www.orchardphoto.com/h29zo28.jpg

There was no exit wound on this deer shot with a 115 gr. Berger VLD out of a 25/06 because the bullet hit it in the rear and didn't exit the front of the chest. An obvious case of bullet failure.

Lloyd Smale
February 21, 2013, 07:36 AM
had a buddy who used to do crop damage shooting back before i ever did that used mostly a 300 win mag using 168 griain match bullets. He swore by the combination and killed many many deer with it. IF it wouldnt have worked well im sure he would have used something else.

MCgunner
February 21, 2013, 11:15 AM
Use what ya want. GAME King means it's built to expand reliably and predictably on GAME. MATCH Kings are designed to be accurate with NO consideration for shooting animals. Since they cost the same and GAME Kings are quite accurate in the guns I shoot 'em in (1/2 MOA in my .257 Roberts shooting a 100 grain Game King), why would I shoot a bullet not designed for hunting? I mean, does a deer rifle need to be better than 1/2" at 100 yards for 5 shots accurate? Really? That translates to 2" groups at 400 yards, my absolute limit even for a coyote and I would prefer closer 300 yards on deer in the interest of sufficient energy with the Roberts.

Use the bullet designed to work for the application. You're not saving money and you could lose meat with the Match Kings. It's a no brainer. It's simple logic! Why argue to use the wrong bullet. Would you pull your travel trailer with your Toyota Prius? Would you drive it down a 4x4 trail? It ain't made for that. Oh, it MIGHT work, then again.....

Grumulkin
February 21, 2013, 11:58 AM
Theoretically 0.5 inches at 100 yards works out to 2 inches at 400 yards but if you actually did 400 yard shooting, you would know it's not always that way in real life. If you get 0.5 MOA out of your 257 Roberts I would say you're doing well and I wouldn't change anything either. Accuracy means a lot more to me than how a bullet is made or how fast it's going.

Do you believe everything a bullet manufacturer tells you? If you do, then U. S. snipers use the "wrong bullet" since they use Match Kings. Of course you may argue that they just want to wound and not to kill. Yea, right.

Art Eatman
February 21, 2013, 02:23 PM
According to H&H, the heavy, big-bore solids are intended as bone-breakers, as stoppers, so Mr. Great Big & Mean doesn't stomp on you. It's a whole different deal from our US hunting of deer and elk.

MCgunner
February 21, 2013, 04:40 PM
Do you believe everything a bullet manufacturer tells you? If you do, then U. S. snipers use the "wrong bullet" since they use Match Kings. Of course you may argue that they just want to wound and not to kill. Yea, right.

Uh? Military are limited by convention to NOT use expanding bullets. They use FMJ in all firearms for that reason. I reckon Match Kings, being basically a FMJ non-expanding bullet with a hollow cavity in the nose, is perhaps legal. This does prove to ME that Match Kings won't expand. Plus, the military wants armor penetration in as much as it can get that. They couldn't if they used "dum dum" bullets.

Bio-Chem
February 21, 2013, 04:44 PM
kind of hard to compare bullets for killing men and bullets for killing elk. two different anatomies.

MCgunner
February 21, 2013, 05:05 PM
kind of hard to compare bullets for killing men and bullets for killing elk. two different anatomies.

Yeah, and elk don't have access to kevlar vests and ceramic plates. :rolleyes:

Bio-Chem
February 21, 2013, 05:14 PM
would you want a bullet that expands when shooting a kevlar vest? How many Taliban are wearing Kevlar?

MCgunner
February 21, 2013, 05:31 PM
Taliban hide behind walls. The military has an emphasis on penetration of armor. Primarily, they cannot by international law use expanding bullets, so this tells me that if they are using match kings in any way, they're not expanding bullets.

I'm not going to lose a deer finding out, just sayin'. :D

Geno
February 21, 2013, 07:56 PM
I just purchased 1,000, Sierra .277 caliber, 140 grain, HPBT Gamekings, and 500 Sierra 130 grain SP Pro Hunter projectiles. I never have fired either of them in my .270 WIn, and so testing should be fun. Since projectiles of all sort seem more limited right now, I figured they couldn't be worse than nothing. Reviews on both are positive, but that's marketing, right? I still have a couple hundred Hornady 130 grain SSTs, and wow do they work great. Back to the point of HPs, I think it depends as much on construction for intended use as anything. Matchkings are for target.

About 3 or 4 years back, I mistakenly loaded some Sierra 168 HPBT Matchkings in my .300 Win Mag. The first couple of hits on a deer had zero effect. The next round hit the shoulder and shattered it. I suspect they either blew-up, or passed completely through uneffected. I didn't realize my mistake until I returned home and looked at the box. The 165 grain HPs, were in the wrong spot. My mistake was not checking my box of projectiles twice.

All that said, my uncle uses exclusively Sierra 168 grain HPBT Matchkings for deer in his .300 Wea Mag and his .30-378 Wea Mag, and he swears by them. I'd never use them for hunting again, not by intent. A HP, yes, a Matchking HP? No.

Geno

Kachok
February 21, 2013, 09:06 PM
If those Sierras don't do right for you I could give them a happy home :D My 270 WSM loves the 130 SGKs into tiny little one ragged hole groups with a mild charge of 4350, only bullet that it shoots better then a ballistic tip.

Grumulkin
February 21, 2013, 09:36 PM
Uh? Military are limited by convention to NOT use expanding bullets. They use FMJ in all firearms for that reason. I reckon Match Kings, being basically a FMJ non-expanding bullet with a hollow cavity in the nose, is perhaps legal. This does prove to ME that Match Kings won't expand. Plus, the military wants armor penetration in as much as it can get that. They couldn't if they used "dum dum" bullets.
Just curious, have you EVER seen a wound caused by a bullet that didn't expand or come apart (i.e., a solid)? In case you haven't, the hole in is about the same size as the hole out. Now take a look at the photos I posted. Do you think the hole in is the same size as the hole out?

It DOESN'T MATTER if the bullet expands, tumbles or comes apart. Tissue damage in each case is extensive with a high velocity projectile. Berger bullets which have similar construction to Sierra Match kings have been tested on all sorts of stuff including Red Deer (i.e., Elk by a different name) and were shown to be very effective.

In addition, the Geneva Convention does not mandate that FMJ bullets be used in all firearms; if it did our snipers wouldn't be shooting Match Kings.

MCgunner
February 21, 2013, 09:50 PM
I nearly lost an animal because of a too tough bullet from lack of expansion. It WAS a hunting bullet, but I think just too tough for the velocities at which I was driving it. Great shot, though, took his heart out. I didn't go more'n 75 yards, but I had to skin him to find the exit wound. I'll use what I know works and I won't touch a match king for hunting. Simple as that. You do what ya want. Me, i'll do the same.

I've been hunting deer for 50 years. Yeah, I've seen it all. And, I've heard they can't post anything that's not true on the internet. Call me a skeptic. I really don't see the point in shooting game with match bullets, anyway. I mean, there's so many good hunting bullets out there, WHY?

Kachok
February 21, 2013, 11:57 PM
Mcgunner I was under the impression that the USA did not sign the Hague Convention act that banned expanding bullet, we just (normally) abide by it to play nice. The Army does in fact issue expanding HP bullets to MPs and for good reason.

MCgunner
February 21, 2013, 11:59 PM
MPs are law enforcement. Still, I was unaware they had JHPs. Back in the day, the standard .38 load for the Smith M&P (model 10) revolvers was a 130 grain FMJ. Never saw a .45 military round in a JHP. Never saw a 9mm military round in a JHP. But, I'm not in the military.

MCgunner
February 22, 2013, 12:29 AM
From Wiki... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hague_Conventions_of_1899_and_1907#Hague_Convention_of_1899


Hague Convention of 1899
Nicholas II

The peace conference was proposed on August 29, 1898 by Russian Tsar Nicholas II.[4] Nicholas and Count Mikhail Nikolayevich Muravyov, his foreign minister, were instrumental in initiating the conference. The conference opened on May 18, 1899, the Tsar's birthday. The convention was signed on July 29 of that year, and entered into force on September 4, 1900. The Hague Convention of 1899 consisted of four main sections and three additional declarations (the final main section is for some reason identical to the first additional declaration):

I: Pacific Settlement of International Disputes. This section included the creation of the Permanent Court of Arbitration.
II: Laws and Customs of War on Land
III: Adaptation to Maritime Warfare of Principles of Geneva Convention of 1864
IV: Prohibiting Launching of Projectiles and Explosives from Balloons
Declaration I: On the Launching of Projectiles and Explosives from Balloons
Declaration II: On the Use of Projectiles the Object of Which is the Diffusion of Asphyxiating or Deleterious Gases
Declaration III: On the Use of Bullets Which Expand or Flatten Easily in the Human Body

The main effect of the Convention was to ban the use of certain types of modern technology in war: bombing from the air, chemical warfare, and hollow point bullets.

I can't find where the US didn't sign it. I can't find a list of signatories on that page, though, either. My understanding is that we signed it and I know we abide by it. It also concerns the treatment of POWs, that sort of thing. We've always abided by that while most of our enemies in history didn't.

Note, I read through it and the "bombing from the air" that was forbidden was actually expressed in the treated as "bombing from balloons". Planes weren't invented until 1903. I guess that one was read literally. :D

Ooops, here's a list I found of signatories of the 1899 and 1907 conventions. You'll note the US signed BOTH agreements.

http://www.pca-cpa.org/showpage.asp?pag_id=1038

Art Eatman
February 22, 2013, 10:13 AM
The warfare deal is for bullets which do not expand. My understanding is that MatchKings don't expand. End of that story.

So, back to the topic of the thread, okay?

A reasonable generality is that BTHP hunting bullets do not have as heavy/strong a design as the flat-base of equal weight. For Sierra bullets, that's direct from a Sierra techie in a discussion at TFL some years back.

In the FWIW department, I found that a 180-grain Sierra SPBT makes a deeper dent in steel that a 165-grain Sierra HPBT. I would thus expect better penetration on a larger animal. Roughly equal sub-MOA group size.

Kachok
February 22, 2013, 02:25 PM
Yep Match Kings (can) Yaw but they do not expand at the tip as the Berger VLD Hunting bullets do, look the same but very different construction. Seen SMKs shot into all kinds of stuff, phone books, water tanks, milk jugs....etc seen them dinged up all kinds of ways but never seen one mushroom.

murf
February 22, 2013, 02:37 PM
mencius,

if it ain't broke, don't fix it. stay with the core lokts.

murf

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