Raising Witness Point of Impact


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Buck13
February 17, 2013, 09:31 PM
I've had my new base model full size steel EAA/Tanfoglio Witness "wonder finish" 10 mm to the range three times now, and I'm becoming somewhat more comfortable with the trigger (also a few hundred dry-fires may have smoothed it a touch), and the accuracy is starting to seem acceptable. I think I have the "squared slide."

One thing I don't like is that the point of impact is hidden behind the front sight. I read somewhere that this is typical for European duty pistols. I'd REALLY rather have the POI right atop the post for center hold, or even a six-o-clock hold would be OK. Can anyone recommend a slightly higher replacement rear sight?

I'm guessing that an adjustable sight would be too tall for the short front post on that slide, but feel free to correct me.

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meanmrmustard
February 17, 2013, 09:39 PM
See if a shorter front sight is made for your gun.

Buck13
February 17, 2013, 10:23 PM
The front sight is integral to the slide, so that's not convenient. The rear is dovetailed. That seems like the place to start.

Thompsoncustom
February 17, 2013, 10:32 PM
Maybe contact David at Cajun gun works and see if he can fit his adjustable site to your slide or the other way around.

Buck13
February 18, 2013, 12:31 AM
On second thought, maybe for a first attempt, I can just try to build up the sides of the rear sight with five layers of electrical tape. :D At least I could figure out how much taller the sight would need to be.

"Repaired by an official Kludge-Co technician."

tipoc
February 18, 2013, 02:14 AM
What weight bullet are you shooting?

tipoc

Japle
February 18, 2013, 09:31 AM
I had that problem with my .45 Witness. They (EAA) had a high rear sight available and that did the trick.

Getting the old sight out was a chore. I used a big, padded vice, a brass drift and a heavy hammer.

Walt Sherrill
February 18, 2013, 11:31 AM
A previous response mentioned a replacement rear sight -- that's the way to go.

A shorter front sight would RAISE the point of impact, a higher front sight would lower it. (Don't get too hung up on where the point of impact is on a specific target, as if you later change to a different target things will be different and you'll have to start over again!!) You also haven't told us HOW FAR OFF your current sights are, at a specific distance.

Since yours has the front sight as PART of the slide, you need to talk with EAA about getting a lower rear sight. They should have others that can be slipped into the rear dovetail to give you a lower point of impact. They'll have to know which specific rear sight is installed on your weapon, or it's actual height -- you may have to remove it to find a number on it or to measure it before you contact them.

Here a tool from Brownells that can tell you how much lower your rear sight must be -- but EAA will still need to know which rear sight is installed in your gun to give you one that will give you the results you need.

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=13093/GunTechdetail/Sight_Correction_Calculator

Buck13
February 18, 2013, 12:14 PM
Since yours has the front sight as PART of the slide, you need to talk with EAA about getting a lower rear sight.

Wrong, but thank you for playing. Draw a diagram for yourself: a taller rear sight pushes the rear of the barrel down, raising the POI.

Walt Sherrill
February 18, 2013, 12:34 PM
Wrong, but thank you for playing. Draw a diagram for yourself: a taller rear sight pushes the rear of the barrel down, raising the POI.

You're right: I must have had a burst of brain flatulence... You want the point of impact to go UP while holding the same point of aim, and I agree -- you want a higher rear sight. (My first response would have just lowered the point of impact, causing it to be obscured by the barrel and slide, not just the sights. Duh.)

That said, the process is the same -- use the sight calculator to tell you how much higher you need the rear sight to be. EAA will still need to know which rear sight is installed, and how far off the desired point of impact you're hitting at a given distance, unless you tell them what you've got and how much higher you want it to be.

The rule is:

1)move the front sight in the direction opposite from that you want point of impact moved. In your case, that's not an option.

2) move the rear sight in the same direction that you want point of impact moved.

The higher rear sight will let you aim a bit lower and see what's happening. But the 6 o'clock hold will do that too -- but the point of aim will have to vary with different targets and bullseye sizes (which is why I've never liked it...)

Buck13
February 18, 2013, 12:37 PM
I'm shooting Nosler 150 JHPs over either 8 gr. Unique or 14.3 gr AA#9, and Rainier plated 180 TC over 12.1 to 13.1 gr #9 depending on the batch of handloads.

All of these are hitting *about* 6 inches low at 15 or 20 yards. Shooting standing, my results are not tight enough to say if there are small differences, but at least I *had* groups last weekend, unlike the first day I shot it! I think trigger break-in gets most of the credit for that.

I haven't shot enough groups off a rest to be certain there is no difference between the different loads, but enough to be convinced that all are hitting low, and that my spasticity is not the main cause. FWIW, all my other handguns shoot pretty much to point of aim at those ranges (even the one with a stiff trigger), so it's *probably* not my habits that are the main explanation.

Torian
February 18, 2013, 12:44 PM
http://www.henningshootsguns.com/shop/sights.html

Hennings has some options. I've already dropped one of his guide rods in my 10mm. Seated on the frame much better and reduces stress where the rod makes contact.

Buck13
February 18, 2013, 12:44 PM
. But the 6 o'clock hold will do that too -- but the point of aim will have to vary with different targets and bullseye sizes (which is why I've never liked it...)

Agreed on that. If a replacement sight happened to shoot with a 6 o'clock hold, I would consider that an improvement over the current situation, but I'd prefer if it shot right to the sights.

I guess the advantage of 6 o'clock is that if you always shoot the same bullseye at the same range, it is more precise to try to hold with the front sight exactly touching the bottom of the bull, than to try to align to the center of the circle while focused on the sight. Not so good for any other target!

beatledog7
February 18, 2013, 01:09 PM
Point of aim is about sights.

Point of impact is about bullet weight, powder charge, etc.

The idea is to get them to coincide.

billymarr
February 18, 2013, 02:11 PM
Try a heavier bullet my Witness in 45ACP and a Friends in 9mm shoot better with the heavier bullets. Mine likes 200 to 230 185 shoot low about 4 inches and group terrible.

tipoc
February 18, 2013, 02:12 PM
What does EAA say about the issue?

tipoc

meanmrmustard
February 18, 2013, 05:23 PM
Wrong, but thank you for playing. Draw a diagram for yourself: a taller rear sight pushes the rear of the barrel down, raising the POI.
I thought you wanted to raise it? I guess I'm confused too.

Walt Sherrill
February 18, 2013, 09:30 PM
I thought you wanted to raise it? I guess I'm confused too.

The way the problem was stated could be misinterpreted. I misinterpreted. But, if you read it as he intended it to be read, you see that he wanted to SEE the points of impact, and the current sights were blocking the view. (That means the points of impact were TOO low.)

I mistakenly suggested a lower rear sight -- which would have made it worse!! What he wanted was for the bullet holes to be visible, which meant a HIGHER POINT OF IMPACT -- and that could be achieved by a lower front sight (not possible with his gun) or a HIGHER REAR SIGHT.

I must have been half-asleep when I first read and then responded.

chris in va
February 18, 2013, 10:52 PM
Now that I think about it, the Witness 45 I had for a couple weeks also shot POI, very annoying. The rear sight was ridiculously high too.

meanmrmustard
February 20, 2013, 06:52 AM
The way the problem was stated could be misinterpreted. I misinterpreted. But, if you read it as he intended it to be read, you see that he wanted to SEE the points of impact, and the current sights were blocking the view. (That means the points of impact were TOO low.)

I mistakenly suggested a lower rear sight -- which would have made it worse!! What he wanted was for the bullet holes to be visible, which meant a HIGHER POINT OF IMPACT -- and that could be achieved by a lower front sight (not possible with his gun) or a HIGHER REAR SIGHT.

I must have been half-asleep when I first read and then responded.
Gotcha.

I flubbed it too.

Japle
February 20, 2013, 04:05 PM
Here's what my .45 looks like with the tallest rear sight they had:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/Japle/Guns/Witness45_zps8871b971.jpg

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