Off topic but who has heard of "cut shell"


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Pancho
February 18, 2013, 02:28 AM
The youtube story shows a guy with a 12ga. sxs testing an old method of shooting shot shells. He takes a #8 shot shot shell and cuts a spiral ring around the shell near the base of round. quite impressive.

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Hunter125
February 18, 2013, 02:48 AM
This has been discussed here before. Search "cut shells" and you ought to find a thread or two.

44 Dave
February 18, 2013, 03:21 PM
As I remember "cut shells were listed as Illegal in old hunting regulations, I think deer poachers disguised as bird hunters would use them.

Sam1911
February 18, 2013, 03:31 PM
Yup. We've discussed this. It works. It isn't a very good idea as you're forcing a lot of stuff down the forcing cone, barrel, and choke that isn't supposed to go along for the ride. Pressures are probably through the roof.

But :o I've done it, once, with a Mossberg 500 and a load of 7-1/2s. Knocked down a steel popper target right smartly.

My grandpop mentioned the old-timers doing that when out bird or rabbit hunting but they saw a deer that was just...a tiny bit...out of season.

gibson_es
February 18, 2013, 03:46 PM
Its something i plan do try once. But thats about it. I think its good knowledge to have because it could be useful in a shtf scenario. Im not really into to prepping ar anything biti always like to have the knowledge of how to do things in a reasonably possible bad scenario. This falls in that category for me.

Doak
February 18, 2013, 04:42 PM
In addition to cutting, or as a stand alone variation, one can open a warmed up shell and pour hot paraffin in to fill up the shot column. It solidifies upon cooling. Similar effect.

loose noose
February 18, 2013, 05:45 PM
Back in the early '70s, when I was a police officer in Southern California, we had a class on the shotgun. At that time we were using 00 buck shot in Remington cases. One of the things the instructor showed us was how to get a slug by slicing the shell. I as a young police officer was quite impressed to say the least. Having grown up around shotguns in the midwest and using them for hunting, I never even imagined doing such a thing.:scrutiny:

kozak6
February 19, 2013, 06:18 AM
Slugs are cheaper than new shotguns and and new eyeballs.

Back in the day, it probably worked better with paper hulls and felt wads. With plastic hulls and plastic wads, or even steel shot, it seems quite a bit riskier.

345 DeSoto
February 19, 2013, 09:12 AM
Uuhhh...what is the purpose of doing this?:confused:

Sam1911
February 19, 2013, 09:15 AM
As mentioned several times in this thread, it allow you to simulate the effect of a slug (a heavy solid projectile) when all you have with you are shells of small shot.

It is, would be, or once was, a tool often used for poaching deer when a hunter did not want to be found by the game warden to have slugs or buckshot in his possession during upland game/bird season.

Chevelle SS
February 19, 2013, 09:16 AM
Heard of it, but haven't done it yet.

MCgunner
February 19, 2013, 12:10 PM
Do a search in the shotgun forum.

Never cut a black powder shot shell, hell, never fired one. But, when I was a dumb kid, I fired a few out of a full choked Iver Johnson 16 gauges 30" barrel single shot. No damage, they fired accurately enough. It's good knowledge to have if you're in a survival situation, but don't make a habit of doing it. Pressures have GOT to be above SAAMI.

When I was about 16, we were out on the coastal prairie pass shooting geese. It was one of those blue bird days and two brothers I knew were hunting about 400 yards from us. A flock flew over them probably 80 yards high and I hear BOOM, swoosh, SPLAT, and a lesser Canada fell out of the sky, it's guts having been eviscerated. We went over to check it out, see what the heck they did to knock a goose out of the sky from that range. That's how I learned about "cut shells", we called 'em "reamed shells". I tried several rounds, like I said, but I was of a bit higher intellect than the two brothers and better read being an NRA member at the time and decided I'd just file the knowledge for the future and not make a habit of testing the strength of shotgun breeches with above proof load pressures. :rolleyes: Never saw a gun blow up from it, but it gives me the creeps to think about it.

Oh, BTW, we were using plastic. This was late 60s.

Jaymo
February 19, 2013, 09:54 PM
I've shot a lot of them. Haven't had any guns blow up or endure any unusual wear from doing so.
We called them ringed loads. Never saw any signs of excessive pressure.

They work great in the Taurus Judge, since the OD of the .410 shells is .452".

I could buy the excessive pressure theory, if the choke was immediately after the chamber, but not with it at the muzzle.

kBob
February 20, 2013, 08:32 AM
I once wondered if this is where they got the idea for the Glaser Safety Slug used in SD handguns and rifles.

As uniform crimp is so important in building consistant shot loads I wonder what effect this releasing the shot still inside the front 3/4s of the crimped hull has on consistant velocity.

On the other hand the pressure curve of a shotgun shell is more of a spike with everything happening pretty much right there in the breech. Add to that that one is pushing the hull out of the chamber rather than the smaller diameter wad or naked shot column and yeah you gotta wonder about the pressure.

I know they are meantioned or have been meantioned in the game laws of some states as a no-no.

Does make one wonder about self defense use say in a private home. Many urge folks to use small bird shot to prevent over penitration of say walls and folks in ajoining rooms. On the other hand a load of #6 tends not to penitrate bad guys much either. Change this to a load of #6 still in the wad column and still in the front portion of the hull and you have a giant Glaser Safety Slug.....maybe.

Maybe someone can talk "Box O' Truth" into trying this with a remotely fired gun and both shots into ballistic gell and drywall.

This might also be a interesting case in court.... does preparing such a shell and then using it say months later in a home invasion defensive situation constitute premeditation or will it cause a jury to go against you in civil court?

I don't see anyone around kBob's house doing this shell ringing.......

-kBob

Sam1911
February 20, 2013, 10:09 AM
... does preparing such a shell and then using it say months later in a home invasion defensive situation constitute premeditation or will it cause a jury to go against you in civil court?Anything can be brought up in court, of course, but "premeditation" is going to be hard to establish if you didn't know the deceased and weren't actually expecting to be attacked.

Busyhands94
February 20, 2013, 11:29 AM
Funny you should mention that Pancho, I was having some fun with those on Sunday! I took a couple of my reloads (for trap I have a load that is very similar to Remington Gun Club shells) and did that to them. I fired them out of two shotguns, one was my new Ithaca 12 gauge auto loader, the other was a Browning BT-99.

In my auto loader they failed to cycle the action and the shell failed to eject. The bore is an IC, and the cut shells traveled down the bore just fine. The kicker? They didn't keyhole, and I could hit an empty target box a few times. :)

I also shot a few cut shells that were loaded with blackpowder too. The load was 2.5 Goex FFFG, a waxed wad from BPI, and 1 ounce of #8 chilled lead shot in a paper Federal hull. Before chambering the rounds I smeared a little Hoppes on the front part of the shell to act as lube for the blackpowder. Those had about the same accuracy and power as their smokeless brethren. They did make a pretty impressive

Cut shells are fun to play with but you should be careful if you decide that you want to try this and make sure that you've got a MODERN steel barrel. Modern shotgun barrels are usually overbuilt and can take a lot, you'd be surprised at how much abuse they can take without rupturing. Another factor is action type. Single shots are probably the safest way to do this But all it can take is part of a hull being stuck in the bore to cause a pressure spiks so CHECK THE BORE after each shot if you're fixin' to play with these. ;)

MCgunner
February 20, 2013, 11:40 AM
I could buy the excessive pressure theory, if the choke was immediately after the chamber, but not with it at the muzzle.

Another story. When I was a kid (we loved waterfowl hunting) a friend and I army crawled up on a flock of Canadas that would land in one spot in a field at 10:15 AM every morning. We crawled down a fence line and on the way, I got the barrel stuck in some mud. I cleaned it out before continuing, or I thought. I must have left a speck of it in there. We jumped those geese, I fired 3 shots, we downed 4 birds. On the way back after pickin' 'em up, I put my gun over my shoulder and reached up to grab the barrel and it cut my finger. It was jagged about 22" up its formerly 28" barrel. The speck of mud, all it took, increased pressure enough to blow th end of my barrel off a perfectly good 870 Wimgmaster.

Yeah, I think the pressure is probably excessive. I've not got a strain gauge on an Ohler chronograph to test it, but it's just logic.

Sam1911
February 20, 2013, 11:44 AM
Uh...anyone who's ever seen a bulged or split barrel understands what happens when the bore becomes a bit too tightly sealed -- even if that's down at the muzzle.

Yes, modern shotgun barrels can take a lot, but this is definitely pushing luck, and if something bad happens, you've really got nobody to blame but you.

loose noose
February 20, 2013, 03:29 PM
345 Desoto, While I was a policeman, this was in affect to penetrate a car door with a single slug to strike a perpetrator in a stand-off situation. We never or very seldom carried slugs in our patrol units.

rcmodel
February 20, 2013, 04:12 PM
I could buy the excessive pressure theory, if the choke was immediately after the chamber, but not with it at the muzzle.There is a choke right in front of the chamber.

It's called the forcing cone.

The chamber steps down to bore diameter there, then again at the choke.

A 12 ga bore is a nominal .729" in front of the forcing cone.

A 12 ga chamber & shell is about .785".

So the cut shell has to swage down once .056" immediately in the forcing cone, and then again more when it gets to the choke.

rc

kBob
February 20, 2013, 04:34 PM
Back before Florida homes were airconditioned FLorida gunsmiths could look forward to business of cutting back burst shotgun barrels with some regularity. Digger Wasps "Dirt Dobblers" loved to make their little cement nurseries a few inches back from the muzzle. When the possums or racoons got into the garbage at midnight more than one shotgun got an unexpected modification.

A gun smith friend had a "garden" of those boom-blooms on a desk in back of his shop. Every thing from a bulge to Elmer Fudd Specials.

My comment on premeditation was prompted by the number of self defense fireearms instructors that discourage the use of handloads in defensive handguns for just that reason. Certainly in a civil suit in states that do not have protection for folks that shot someone that was in the commission of a life threatening felony the Bad guy's family lawyer wis going to be dragging out any thing he can to make you look like a raving loon that was just waiting for the chance to shoot some with your weapon of horror.

-kBob

Busyhands94
February 20, 2013, 06:29 PM
Ever fire a deer slug from a choked barrel? Is lead or shot filled plastic harder to swage? Yeah, it's a larger diameter. But if you aren't being stupid about it you and your boomstick will survive. I've put plenty of cast deer slugs downrange and I have both eyes and I'm not full of shrapnel. For these cut shells I purposely used lighter loads, backed the powder down from 19 grains of Titewad to 17 grains in a crispy Winchester AA hull. I don't want to use perfectly good hulls for this, I'd rather use the ones I'd get one more reload out of. Another reason I backed down on the powder is because those heavy loads kick my butt, that shotgun weighs a little over 6 pounds. The action was cycling too fast and chucked a loaded shell out of the bottom when I loaded three shells. (one in the pipe and two in the tube magazine) With some adjustment to my shotgun it's able to handle the heavier loads, but I prefer the lighter ones for my shotgun.

MCgunner
February 20, 2013, 08:57 PM
There is a choke right in front of the chamber.

It's called the forcing cone.

The chamber steps down to bore diameter there, then again at the choke.

A 12 ga bore is a nominal .729" in front of the forcing cone.

A 12 ga chamber & shell is about .785".

So the cut shell has to swage down once .056" immediately in the forcing cone, and then again more when it gets to the choke.

rc

Good point RC. And, for Busyhands' post, the slug is of a diameter to FIT the barrel through the forcing cone. Add to that, the primary function of those "rifling" things on the slug is to fit through the choke. The whole slug does not have to swage, just the lands on the slug. The shell is most definitely NOT designed to be pushed through first the forcing cone and then the choke. There are no rifling lands on the front part of a shotgun shell, the whole thing has to swage and it's oversized to begin with. It is larger in diameter and, thus, the worries about pressure.

Let's just put it this way....not in MY shotguns. :D

raa-7
February 21, 2013, 08:12 PM
Yeah,I'm a little late with this post but I've made and shot em a time or three.Also,one can melt a crayon or some wax into a number 7,8 (bird shot) and when it cools and becomes one solid piece,it's pretty much a slug.I shot out of an old bolt action mossberg with an 18 1/2" bbl. And when I shot them, I could definately tell it had alot more kick to it.

Jaymo
February 22, 2013, 12:50 AM
Haven't bulged or blown one yet. They're very accurate, and the plastic hulls are nice and slick,
Remember, you're swaging a column of shot, not a solid lead cylinder. There's a huge difference.
I haven't tried it with magnum loads. Only with light bird/skeet loads.

Thinking about trying them in my Mossberg 835, with it's heavy, backbored barrel. I should get higher velocity through the bigger bore.

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