Thoughts on 45.acp Revolvers


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CTGunner
February 18, 2013, 01:54 PM
What are your experiences with revolvers chambered for 45acp? What are the pros and cons? What manufacturer / model do you prefer best?

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rcmodel
February 18, 2013, 02:12 PM
S&W 25 or 625 is the only ones I would even consider.

I love my 625-6 Mountain Gun!!

Pros? = Whats not to like!
Cons? = There aren't any.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/100_3888.jpg

rc

SharpsDressedMan
February 18, 2013, 02:33 PM
Here's an old S&W 1917 thst was already cut down and sight installed that I found at a gun show. It had almost no bluing, but had a tight lock up, and a slightly dark bore. I sent it off for a a slight trigger job, and matte blueing. I textured and rounded some Ahrends cocobolo grips, and it is a fine carrying or bedside gun. You don't have to go expensive if you shop the used market. .................. http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m247/matquig/DSC06327.jpg

bikerdoc
February 18, 2013, 02:49 PM
^ beautiful

45 in a wheel gun is a great find.

BlindJustice
February 18, 2013, 02:52 PM
I have a full size 1911 as well as a S&W 625-8 Revolver in ..45 ACP

The 625 is enjoyable to shoot - I prepare prior to the range by loadig
u the full moon clips. after the range session I'll demoon the spent
cases with a demooner tool as I watch TV. With the revolver it's
empty weight is 45 oz so it soaks up the moderate recoil

The M1917 S&W was used by the doughboys using half moon clips
after WWI the M1917s found their way into civilian hands. Remington
Peters created the .45 Auto Rim cartrdge hich has a normal rim like
45 Colt, 44 SPcial etc. except it's exttra thick to correctly headspace
and no moon clips required.

Other S&W .45 ACP Revovlers include

M1917 - 1917 until the late '40s

1950 Target
1950 Army
1955 Target aka Model 25

625 stainless steel - 1902 to present

& S&W offers current models that resemble the
1950 Target & Army as
the Model 21 and Model of 1917

then there's the scandium framed
MOdel 3245 PD/Thunder Ranch

Also the Ruger Blackhawk in 45 Colt - Ruger
offers a Conbertible cylinder in 45 ACP

R-

BossHogg
February 18, 2013, 03:43 PM
I like the S&W 22-4. Pre load your moonclips before the range trip. Then have fun shooting im up. :)
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5250/5686890509_d5de3f2046.jpg

SwampWolf
February 18, 2013, 04:10 PM
My S&W Model 1955 Target (25-2) is one of my favorite revolvers. Beautifully finished, fine workmanship and superbly accurate with a first-rate trigger; they just don't make them like this anymore and, sadly, probably never will.

Vern Humphrey
February 18, 2013, 04:19 PM
I used to have a Colt M1917 -- a really nice revolver. Currently I have a Colt New Service in .45 Colt. Overall, in a Revolver, I prefer .45 Colt.

wheelyfun66
February 18, 2013, 04:31 PM
Here is a Ruger Single action Vaquero in 45 ACP...
http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t497/spec4towle/IMG_0787.jpg
http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t497/spec4towle/IMG_0785.jpg

cpt-t
February 18, 2013, 04:50 PM
CTGunner: I have an old 45LC / 45ACP Ruger Blackhawk Convertible 7.5 inch barrel, that I bought in 1971. I have used this old gun with the 45ACP cylinder to do just about any thing you could ask a Revolver to do. From shooting targets both steel and paper, plinking along the river, to hunting both small game and just about every varmint you can think of. Even a few Coyotes and a Pig. 25 to 50 yd shot is not a real problem, if I do my part. My Ruger is like an old friend to me, very accurate, very little recoil, and very easy to shoot. I can`t ask for any thing more. Good Luck To You:
ken

56hawk
February 18, 2013, 05:21 PM
What are your experiences with revolvers chambered for 45acp? What are the pros and cons? What manufacturer / model do you prefer best?

I have a couple S&W revolvers in 45 ACP. One of them is a 625 that I have used in USPSA revolver class competitions.

Pros are that with moon clips the 45 ACP is the fastest revolver there is to reload. Recoil is also very mild.

Cons are that you are shooting a pretty wimpy round out of that big of a gun. In the same size you could get an eight shot 357 or a six shot 44 Magnum. And of course having to use moon clips is both a pro and a con depending on how you look at it.

BlindJustice
February 18, 2013, 05:57 PM
Ahem...wimpy?

Buffalo Bore .45 ACP / .45 AUto Rim heavy loads

as well as .45 Super

stormspotter
February 18, 2013, 06:35 PM
I just bought a Lipsey's Ruger Flattop in 45 Colt/45 ACP. Can't wait for it to arrive and will be a good mate for my Flattop 44 Special.

BYJO4
February 18, 2013, 06:47 PM
S&W model 25 or 625 is an excellent 45 ACP/Auto Rim revolver. Accuracy is supurb and all that I have owned came with a great trigger right out of the box.

Deaf Smith
February 18, 2013, 07:23 PM
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=176000&d=1355098863

What is there to think about?

Deaf

waidmann
February 18, 2013, 08:23 PM
When you get down to it .45 ACP makes more sense than either .44 Special or .45 Colt in most applications particularly if store bought ammo is prefered.

My experience includes the S&W 25-2, 1917; Colt New Service 1917 and several modified military models.

A caution: do not use factory .45 ACP in a shaved Webley.

jonnyc
February 18, 2013, 09:04 PM
My S&W 1917, Colt 1917, and shaved Webley are my favorite range guns. They all happily digest my favorite .45ACP target load.

Walkalong
February 18, 2013, 09:22 PM
This 1917 is cool, and fun,
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=127509&stc=1&d=1284225295

but this 1955 Target is awesome.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=152814&d=1321376594

I foolishly sold a 625-4.

exbrit49
February 18, 2013, 10:22 PM
Ruger Blackhawk with 45ACP and 45Colt cylinders.
Love mine and it gets an equal amount of both through it.
The 45Colt is a little more accurate than the 45ACP but at 25 yds everything is in the black shooting off hand.
Another big plus is the Blackhawk frame and cylinder are heavy enough to handle some hefty loads.
Ruger gets top marks from me for this combo!

Liberty1776
February 18, 2013, 11:00 PM
They're awesome. My first 1917 S&W was the most accurate handgun I've ever owned. I now have my eye open for an (affordable) 625 5" - which for me is the perfect bbl length.

Fat_46
February 18, 2013, 11:12 PM
325PD and a 625 Performance Center. The 325PD is on my belt more often then any other, and I have a few to choose from. I segregate my 45 ACP brass, with the autos getting large primer, and the wheelies getting small. Same load for both, though.

cfullgraf
February 18, 2013, 11:13 PM
Did someone say "what's not to like" about the S&W 45 ACP revolvers or Colt 1917's?

I like my 625JM and I just got a Model 22 Classic. They are fun to shoot.

I will probably add a S&W 1917 to my list of "wants".

pendennis
February 18, 2013, 11:31 PM
I own six of them:

S&W Model of 1917
Colt New Service Model of 1917
S&W Model 25-2
S&W Model 325NG
S&W Model 625-3
S&W Model 22-4
S&W Model 22-4, Model of 1917


I still haven't decided which of them I like the best. They're all fun to shoot, and I carry the 325NG concealed.

The newest is the S&W Model of 1917. I got it Saturday at a local show, and started wringing it out today. It locks up nearly as tight as my Python.

http://i661.photobucket.com/albums/uu331/pendennis1947/SmithampWessonModel1917Leftw-Cartridges_zpsdaba73f2.jpg

Boxhead
February 19, 2013, 06:42 AM
I owned an Old Model Ruger Blackhawk convertible and never shoot the ACP cylinder and eventually swapped it off to Alan Harton in trade for labor. I do shoot a Smith 25-2 primarily with AR brass and a 255 gr SWC (as cast by MBW). It is a fine piece, easy to shoot and exceedingly accurate. Just a fun gun to shoot.

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa437/boxhead61/M25-2andBFR017.jpg

rikman
February 19, 2013, 11:43 AM
S&W 25 or 625 is the only ones I would even consider.

I love my 625-6 Mountain Gun!!

Pros? = Whats not to like!
Cons? = There aren't any.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/100_3888.jpg

rc
What RC said!

http://i965.photobucket.com/albums/ae133/FLYFIDO/SW625PC.jpg

mic214
February 19, 2013, 12:02 PM
What are your experiences with revolvers chambered for 45acp? What are the pros and cons? What manufacturer / model do you prefer best?
I love my M-625. It started out with a 5" heavy barrel. I swapped out the 5" barrel with a 4" Mountain Gun barrel. It is much easier to pack around now.....

Before:

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y71/mic214/Firearms/SW625.jpg

After:

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y71/mic214/Firearms/625-3.jpg

StrawHat
February 19, 2013, 12:14 PM
I had a 6 1/2" barreled M25-2 for nearly a decade and was looking for a 4" iteration of some sort. Never could find it so I took a M28-2 that was sitting unused and reworked it to handle the 45 ACP cartridge. Here they are.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc194/StrawHat/Nframegrips004.jpg

The 4" barreled revolver is used daily, the target revolver get used at the range. Both are used with ACP in moonclips or AR brass. I load cast lead only, 235 full wadcutter, 245 grain SWC, 260 SWC and 280 SWC. The full WC and the 260 SWC seem to be the ideal for them.

VA27
February 19, 2013, 12:27 PM
I've had several over the years. A coupla 1955 Targets, a 1917 Smith and a 1917 Colt. I lucked on to a used Model 22-4, 4" last week. I like 'em!

jmorris
February 19, 2013, 12:52 PM
I have a couple of 625's. They dominate the revolver action shooting games they are allowed in. Very fast to reload and very simple to retrieve all your brass back. Mooning/demoon can be a pain if you don't have the right tools but if you use 45GAP brass they moon/demoon by hand and the small primers allow for better trigger pull with 100% ignition.

Here is a video of a tool I built for them. The mouth of the feed tube is cut so it will demoon also.

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/th_mooner.jpg (http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/mooner.mp4)

Coal Dragger
February 19, 2013, 03:31 PM
Can't speak for the double action .45ACP revovlers, but I love the spare cylinder in .45ACP that I had made for my Freedom Arms .454 Casull.

huntsman
February 19, 2013, 03:57 PM
What are your experiences with revolvers chambered for 45acp? What are the pros and cons? What manufacturer / model do you prefer best?
I bought a 5-1/2" blackhawk convert for deer hunting and plinking, the .45acp has been a joy to shoot and now I'm going to look for a .45acp in a barrel of 3-4" instead of another semi-auto.

ApacheCoTodd
February 20, 2013, 12:04 PM
For me.
Pros:
.45 compatibility with my many semi-autos
.45 is a very easy and an "all things known" reload
Loves me some moon clip reloading
Shoots like black powder pistols

Cons:
Moon clips unless you get something chambered like a Smith 1917
Most of them waste a lot of frame dimension and weight on the "downpowered" cartridge

Iggy
February 20, 2013, 01:56 PM
A 1915 vintage .455 HE with a .45ACP/AR Cylinder and 6 1/2" barrel makes a purty good plinkin' gun.
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p246/Iggy25/SWMutt.jpg

Archie
February 20, 2013, 02:29 PM
Except I'll quibble with his closing comment.

A .45 ACP revolver is 'down powered' only when compared to the same size revolver in .44 Magnum or Special.

However, for a reloader, the .45 ACP/.45 AutoRim round can be loaded with a 255 grain wadcutter to a fairly authoritative level. Some 'old guys' have killed deer regularly with them.

I have a 1917 S&W (cut down) and a 1955 Target model and I'm rather fond of both.

Dave T
February 20, 2013, 02:35 PM
The 45 ACP being tied as my favorite revolver cartridge (38/44 being the other) I almost had to post a few pictures (smile).

My oldest 45 ACP revolver is this customized 1917:

http://i722.photobucket.com/albums/ww224/desertarcher/SW%20N%20Frames/IMG_0400.jpg
The plastic stocks have since been replaced by a set of ram's horn stocks by Grashorn Gunworks. It has a 3-3/8" barrel and a hard chrome finish.

Next in age is a Model of 1955:

http://i722.photobucket.com/albums/ww224/desertarcher/SW%20N%20Frames/IMG_1151.jpg
That barrel has been cut to 5", the ramp and front sight are pinned just like the original. Stocks are early, hand checkered Harrett Shooting Stars.

Smith & Wesson made some of their Mountain Guns in 45 ACP but only in stainless (625s). I wanted a blue steel version like this:

http://i722.photobucket.com/albums/ww224/desertarcher/SW%20N%20Frames/IMG_0241.jpg
It's a M25-2 that has a shortened Model of 1950 tapered barrel. Like the factory MGs this one has a round butt and a matt finish. It's one of my favorites.

Finally, one of the early 625-2 with the full lug 5" barrel.

http://i722.photobucket.com/albums/ww224/desertarcher/SW%20N%20Frames/IMG_0314.jpg
Bought this used with a bad case of push off. A new main spring from Brownells ended the push off and delivered a reliable but very smooth DA trigger pull.

Pre loading a couple hundred rounds of moon clips in my shop makes any trip to the range a delight as no other revolver reloads as quickly or smoothly as a 45 ACP fed full moons.

Dave

rcmodel
February 20, 2013, 02:48 PM
For just range plinking without the pain of moonclips, I have had good success with the Rimz EZ-Moon plastic moon clips.

http://www.ezmoonclip.com/

You can load & unload them with just your fingers easily.

They are not nearly as durable and drop-proof as steel clips.

But it doesn't take a mooner & a de-mooner tool to get the cases in & out of them either.

rc

highlander 5
February 20, 2013, 03:03 PM
I've 2 model 625s and when freinds have asked to go to the range with me I bring an assortment of revolvers and semi autos and almost everyone has fallen in love them.
Easy to shoot recoil wise and very accurate. I bring an assortment of 45 ACP and 45 Auto rim ammo loaded to standard velocities and have had no complaints on recoil. A friend that's waiting on his LTC is going to look for a used 625 once his permit is in.

Hammerdown77
February 20, 2013, 03:12 PM
For just range plinking without the pain of moonclips, I have had good success with the Rimz EZ-Moon plastic moon clips.

http://www.ezmoonclip.com/

You can load & unload them with just your fingers easily.

They are not nearly as durable and drop-proof as steel clips.

But it doesn't take a mooner & a de-mooner tool to get the cases in & out of them either.

rc
+1000 for the RIMZ. Made the experience of shooting moon clipped 45 Auto so much more enjoyable for me.

Japle
February 20, 2013, 03:53 PM
The only one I have is a 625JM. I did an action job, replaced the springs and installed an extended firing pin. It’s a super-nice shooting gun.

I only fire it DA. Don't think I've ever fired it SA.

Yesterday at the range, I fired 2 moon clips at 20 yards DA, about one second per shot and got this group. It would be 2 ¾” if it wasn’t for the flyer that opened it up to 3 ¾”

OOPS!

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/Japle/Guns/219201320ydrapid_zps2cb432a1.jpg

deanodog
February 20, 2013, 03:58 PM
1955 target
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c375/deanodog/revolvers/sw25-2.jpg
blackhawk in 45 acp
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c375/deanodog/revolvers/bhconvertiblels1.jpg

bamabiker
February 20, 2013, 04:19 PM
I guess you can say I like S&W 45 ACP revolvers.
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll108/bamabiker1159/FAs/FAPictures695.jpg
I have another 3" M625 that did not make this picture.

MagnumDweeb
February 20, 2013, 04:30 PM
Everytime it seems like I can finally buy a .45 ACP Revolver something comes up. A deal I can't turn down, my wedding that I have to pay for, etc. etc. etc..

I finally settled on waiting till I can find another .454 Casull Ruger Redhawk for less than $700.00 with a 7.5" barrel and having cut for .45 ACP. I know someone who did this to theirs, and i have an uncut one (it's my full time .454 Casull shooter), and it shoots like a dream out to twenty five yards. I fired six shots and thought I had somehow missed twice as I was winding it back up to find I had double punched inside a three inch grouping. Not amazing shooting but good plinking. I've tried to get my friend out to an open air range so I can try it at fifty yards.

In the massive frame it has as much recoil as .38 special in a Model 15. Just a sweet straight shooter.

VA27
February 20, 2013, 04:41 PM
The Rimz clips are great for plinking, but do NOT shoot CCI shotshells with them. The plastic clips will allow the fired case to jam up against the recoil shield and you'll have a heck of a time getting the second shot off or even getting the cylinder open! The shotshells work fine with the metal moon clips.

fbks ak
February 20, 2013, 08:04 PM
Ruger Blackhawk in 45 colt with extra 45acp is fantastic.......Tom

ApacheCoTodd
February 20, 2013, 08:20 PM
Did that Charter Arms CARR (rimless revolver) ever come out in .45ACP?

S&Wfan
February 20, 2013, 09:01 PM
Here's the last revolver I'll ever sell . . .

I've had both 625-3 (Model of 1989) and 25-2 (Model of 1955) .45ACP revolvers. Incredibly accurate and fun to shoot!!!

My favorite though started out in the early '80s as a stock, 6 1/2" barreled 25-2 target revolver. Back then, Smith lacked the wisdom of producing this fine gun with a short barrel for self-defense so quite a few folks converted them.

Mine was chopped by, a long-deceased gunsmith in Savannah, to a barrel length of 3 1/4". It has the best single AND double action trigger jobs I've ever experienced. It is extremely fast from the holster, and exhibits perfect balance and recovery times when shooting fast, double action competitions. It has superb accuracy, and also reloads as fast (for me) as I can my 1911 pistols!

Yep, this moon-clipped revolver is THE perfect fighting revolver, IMHO!

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5134/5430384896_a8db5a286b_b.jpg

pittspilot
February 20, 2013, 11:20 PM
Beautiful!

I have 2. A 625-2 model of 1989 and a 22-4. Love them both. I have to get some decent pictures of them. A 25-2 is one of my grail guns.

Gordon
February 20, 2013, 11:47 PM
I have an S&W Army Model 4" in acp and a 1955 Target but to tell you the truth they have been less than stellar accurate in the 30+ years I've owned them. So 15 years back I took a sound old 1917 Colt and sent it to Cylinder and Slide where they put on a Douglas Air guaged bull barrel , fabricated a shrouded ball detent front lock up, installed gold front sight sighted in at 25 yards with Ball ammo, action blue print ect. and then it went to Colt for minimal Bank Note engraving and a Royal Blue, then back to Roy Fishpaw for exhibition French walnut grips. The gun will do 2" groups with the right match wadcutters at 50 yards from bags, but I can't anymore.
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i203/gordonhulme/practicalstuff035.jpg
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i203/gordonhulme/practicalstuff036.jpg

Driftwood Johnson
February 21, 2013, 08:03 AM
Howdy

Way back in 1975 I bought this Blackhawk brand, spanky new. It came with the extra 45 ACP cylinder. Frankly, I was not interested in the extra cylinder, I only wanted to shoot 45 Colt. But the gun came with the cylinder, so I still have it. Frankly, I went many years before putting any ACP rounds through the gun, and still prefer to shoot it with 45 Colt. But no, the extra cylinder is not for sale.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/rugers/BlackhawkConvertible.jpg



I have had this pair of S&W Brazilian contract 1917s for quite some time now. I actually prefer to shoot them with 45 Auto Rim instead of 45 ACP. I don't much like messing with moon clips. S&W 1917s headspace on the case mouth, so they can be fired without the clips, but in order to use the extractor one has to use the clips. Without the clips the empties have to be poked out with a stick. That's why I prefer the 45AR cartridge. No clips nor stick needed.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/smith%20and%20wesson/011.jpg



I found this nice Model 1917 last year. It was made in 1918. It came with an almost full box of ammo made the same time the revolver was made. No, I'm not going to shoot up that ammo, I collect old ammo, so it was a nice extra. I also prefer to shoot this one with 45 AR.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/smith%20and%20wesson/1917%20original%20model/1917andammo.jpg

JTQ
February 21, 2013, 11:02 AM
In the July/August 2011 American Handgunner Mike Venturino has an article where he calls the .45ACP "The Best Ever Revolver Cartridge". He makes some very good points.

http://fmgpublications.ipaperus.com/FMGPublications/AmericanHandgunner/AHJA11/

By the way, I'm a big fan of S&Wfan's chopped 25-2 target revolver. That is one cool revolver.

Fishslayer
February 21, 2013, 09:26 PM
This thread needs a pre-26 Model of 1950 Target. This one is a '52 vintage.

I don't believe there are any cons to a .45ACP wheelgun. The con of this one is that I've been lusting after a suitable 1955 Target for a safemate since I got it.:rolleyes:

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn215/THE_Fishslayer/100_1110.jpg


Got ammo? IMO mooning/demooning ain't no thang. ;)

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn215/THE_Fishslayer/OSR/Mooned45.jpg

wkuban
February 22, 2013, 11:52 AM
625JM, funnest gun I own. I think I need a model 22 and a 25.

StrawHat
February 22, 2013, 12:03 PM
Here's the last revolver I'll ever sell . . .
Back then, Smith lacked the wisdom of producing this fine gun with a short barrel for self-defense so quite a few folks converted them...


S&Wfan, you and I were thinking along the same lines, I was able to get my barrel reworked so it is a skiiny 4" barrel. Great revolver!

The stag grips and filler look good. Maybe I need to change mine.

kBob
February 22, 2013, 07:15 PM
Gordon,

That Colt is beautiful! I grumble to this day over letting my Dad talk me out of buying a US Post Office when I was in college. I had visions of "Fitz Specials" when I saw it already bobed adn front sightless. But it was not to be.
Sigh.

Big Plus to all on the Ruger Blackhawk Pervertables in .45 ACP and S&W 1917s, I like them a bunch.

-kBob

skoro
February 23, 2013, 01:49 PM
I'm real fond of my old S&W M1917. Load the moonclips before going to the range and you're in a for a good time. :)

Billy Shears
February 23, 2013, 02:12 PM
Sorry I can't post pictures (no way to host them), but I've got a Bubba'd S&W 1917 that I use as a house gun. I picked it up dirt cheap, since it had been altered. The barrel has been cut down to 3 1/2 inches, and the front sight base from a sporting rifle installed, which was actually pretty clever, since it covers the chopped off roll marked text on the top of the barrel. The downside is that this necessitated the rear sight being raised, and Bubba accomplished this by welding a flat, notched piece of steel in place on the rear of the frame. What I can't figure is that, since all the modifications on this piece seemed clearly intended to produce a compact, carry gun, Bubba chose to install a hooked target sight on the front, guaranteed to catch clothing on a draw. (I only use this as a house gun, where it's not much of handicap, but I mean to change this out.) Finally, Bubba removed the lanyard ring, and ground off the slight flare at the heel of the grip. That's bad enough, but what he did next truly hurts me in my soul. He installed a non-original set of factory target stocks, cut off the bottom, so it would be flush with the frame, and sanded away the flare at the heel, so it would fit flush with the now ground down frame. But these weren't just any S&W target grips, these were coke bottle grips! :eek::what::banghead::cuss::fire:

Those things, unaltered, would be worth almost the price of a brand new S&W bodyguard revolver today. If I knew who was responsible for these modifications, I would have his kneecaps broken.

But, it was in this condition that I found the gun, and as the price was less than $100, I picked it up. It functions well. Despite the shortened barrel and frame, and (once the sight's replaced), it's suitability as a carry gun, I won't carry it. I prefer autos for carry, and the one thing about the .45ACP revolver that bothers me as a carry gun is the moon clips. They are thin sheet metal, and liable to be bent when carried. If that happens, they can tie up the cylinder rotation.

StrawHat
February 23, 2013, 09:54 PM
Billy Shears, I have been carrying full moon clips for nearly thiry years. Never bent one yet while carrying. I have bent them when they were empty and I stepped on them.

SharpsDressedMan
February 23, 2013, 10:48 PM
So, are you saying that they CAN'T get bent, won't ever get bent, or your experience is unique, and they COULD get bent and rendered unserviceable at the most inopportune moment? I'm glad yours never got bent. I have had one get SLIGHTLY bent while in a pocket, and when loaded, the cylinder would not turn. Had to set that one aside until I could flatten it. They now make nice carriers that would probably keep them protected.

StrawHat
February 24, 2013, 07:19 AM
Anything can happen, I was merely relating my experience. Others may not have been so fortunate. I have repaired three revolvers where the owner had somehow bent the barrel. For some, that is not an issue, but obviously for those three fellows it was a problem. It just isn't a common problem.

oldcelt
February 24, 2013, 03:38 PM
Way back about 1960 I bought a S&W mod 1955 and still have it, Its' a very fine gun and I intend to keep it in spite of the offers I get. I paid the outrageous sum of $55.00. Should have bought a dozen.

SaxonPig
February 24, 2013, 10:29 PM
Well, honestly (I get into trouble because a lot of people don't really desire or appreciate honesty) the 45 ACP in a revolver isn't the greatest think since sliced bread. Now, if the guns were scaled down in size to match the stubby ammo, it might be a different story. But they are always large frame revolvers with cylinders way too long making the gun big and heavy for the power output.

Now, having said that, I confess to having a couple of these fairly useless things.


http://www.fototime.com/92BE2AED3F2C930/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/A6519C79E0B0786/standard.jpg


The only thing that most guys find really handy about the 45 ACP wheelguns is the ability to use moon clips for very fast reloading. But from a ballistic standpoint, the 45 Colt makes far more sense in a revolver.


http://www.fototime.com/4DF54850C05B3FD/standard.jpg

StrawHat
February 25, 2013, 03:28 PM
Saxon Pig, I reload for both the ACP and the long Colt in N frames. When handloading, the ballistics are pretty close.

Vern Humphrey
February 25, 2013, 03:35 PM
My favorite .45 Colt load drives a 255 grain cast bullet to around 1,000 fps. No way I'd try that in any of my .45 ACP automatics.

StrawHat
February 25, 2013, 10:54 PM
Vern, I agree, no way for a self loader. But in an N frame, no problem.

stiab
February 25, 2013, 11:03 PM
I guess another picture won't hurt...

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1600/481405/1988188/384823565.jpg

...and a sharp eye will reveal this one is not exactly 'factory'.

Indifferent
February 26, 2013, 12:37 AM
Saxon Pig, I reload for both the ACP and the long Colt in N frames. When handloading, the ballistics are pretty close.
I am having a hard time believing this...

rcmodel
February 26, 2013, 12:53 AM
Why?

SAAMI standard pressure for the .45 Colt is 14,000 PSI.
It is 23,000 for the .45 ACP +P.

In a S&W N-Frame revolver, both calibers are limited to about 23,000 PSI.

SO, either one can be loaded to the same pressure, and nearly the same velocity.

Yes, you can't do it in a 1911 pistol.
But you can't shoot .45 Colt in a 1911 pistol.

Older Speer data shows Max loads as follows:
.45 Colt in a Colt SAA.
240 grain LSWC = 822 FPS.

Same bullet in a .45 AR case in a 1950 S&W Target = 1,192 FPS.

rc

huntershooter
February 26, 2013, 08:00 AM
Smith & Wesson for me.
I have a 25-2 (S-prefix) and a MIM lock mod. 22. Both are shooters and have had no issues with either (after slicking up the MIM gun).

http://i1043.photobucket.com/albums/b434/huntershooter/handguns%20ll/IMG_6364.jpg

http://i1043.photobucket.com/albums/b434/huntershooter/handguns%20ll/IMG_6343.jpg

SaxonPig
February 26, 2013, 04:38 PM
Loading your own can bring the ACP close to the Colt, but not quite equal. Still the problem with too much gun for the cartridge.

I'm not saying the 45 ACP revolvers are bad, note that I two of them, but I understand their limitations and recognize that they are not anything mystical.

Jaymo
February 26, 2013, 07:52 PM
I think they're absolutely useless, so you should all send yours to me for proper disposal. :D
My 2011 Ruger Blackhawk .45 Convertible is my first .45 ACP revolver.
One thing I like about it, is I can load it with a round ball and a tiny powder charge, for cheap plinking.
That, and, it's chambered for .45 Colt AND .45 ACP. What's not to like about that?

wheelyfun66
February 27, 2013, 09:18 AM
WOW!!!
This thread has some of the classiest wheelguns I have EVER seen....

beautiful........:)

Ak.Hiker
February 27, 2013, 11:06 AM
I have had a S&W 1955 Target revolver since the 60's. It is still my number one house gun loaded with Hornady 230 grain +P. Back in the day I kept it loaded with hardball as that was all we could get. Then Super Vel came out with their 190 grain JHP. A 250 grain hardcast AR loaded to 950 is a darn good woods walking load as well. A also have a 4 5/8 inch Ruger convertable. I like the fact that I can run any load from light ACP target loads right on up to a 325 grain heavy 45 Colt hardcast. At 36 ounces carried in a Simply Rugged Pancake holster the Ruger is hard to beat as a hiking gun.

Fishslayer
February 27, 2013, 02:05 PM
Loading your own can bring the ACP close to the Colt, but not quite equal. Still the problem with too much gun for the cartridge.


One COULD just go ahead & drop the Big One!:eek:

http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/revserv.htm

627PCFan
February 27, 2013, 04:12 PM
My shooting buddy just got himself a 625 PC. Thowing impartiality out the door, I would never trade my 627PC for it. The fit and finish out of the last 2 Smiths I have handled, a 610 for my fathers bday gift and the 625 both left alot to be desired. Neither were polished. The 610 I got what I expected, but the 625 has a heavy pull for a PC gun. Smooth but questionably heavy. Maybe it has differnt geometry than a 27? The 625 is more accurate than either of us can shoot.

SwampWolf
February 27, 2013, 07:01 PM
and recognize that they are not anything mystical.

Maybe not for you, but when used in the venue it was intended for, some of my very best scores shot in the .45 phase in Bullseye matches were done with my big Model 1955 Target revolver, with its magical trigger pull and fine sights. Mystical for me, indeed.

wxl
February 28, 2013, 02:47 PM
625 5" great shooter, accurate and fun to shoot. Have several 1911s and same loads are much lower recoil in my 625.

mnhntr
February 28, 2013, 02:54 PM
I understand the 45acp in a revolver for match shooting. That is where my understanding stops. Why handicap yourself? Obviously gaming with a 625 and a ton of moon clips is awesome, but for ANY other application it is not my first pic. The 357 and 44 are IMHO the king of the revolver calibers. Shooting specials in 38 and 44 for targets and magnums for hunting and defense makes sense. If I want to get the full potential from a 45acp for a carry gun or defensive pistol it would be better served in a 1911 or one of the many polymer framed semi-autos ou there.

Peter M. Eick
February 28, 2013, 03:41 PM
Thoughts?

"Stupidly accurate"

http://eickpm.com/picts/pre25_best_target.jpg

50 shots, 15 yrds, offhand.

Iggy
February 28, 2013, 08:09 PM
That about speaks for itself right there.

CTGunner
February 28, 2013, 08:40 PM
I never thought this would materialize to such a popular thread.

Walkalong
February 28, 2013, 08:50 PM
So, find yourself looking for one yet?

CTGunner
February 28, 2013, 08:57 PM
I am. Locally what I have found is the Jerry M model. Its nice but I need to keep looking. I just sold an AR so I have some money to work with.

Jaymo
February 28, 2013, 10:16 PM
.45 ACP revolvers are just big, stupid, fun. I like ALL big, accurate, big bore revolvers.

StrawHat
March 1, 2013, 11:15 AM
I understand the 45acp in a revolver for match shooting. That is where my understanding stops. Why handicap yourself? Obviously gaming with a 625 and a ton of moon clips is awesome, but for ANY other application it is not my first pic. The 357 and 44 are IMHO the king of the revolver calibers. Shooting specials in 38 and 44 for targets and magnums for hunting and defense makes sense. If I want to get the full potential from a 45acp for a carry gun or defensive pistol it would be better served in a 1911 or one of the many polymer framed semi-autos ou there.
mnhntr, some of us do not feel handicapped with either a revolver or the 45 ACP cartridge. For most hunting, a 260 grain lead bullet at +/- 950 fps is a perfectly fine combination. Or a 280 grain lead bullet at about the same speed. More weight or more velocity gives more recoil and not much else. Both loads mentioned are easily achieved and usually give good accuracy. I was a big fan of the 44 Magnum, until I saw how the 45 long Colt did with black powder. Now, I try to duplicate the ballistics of the long Colt load, and the results have been consistently good. For defense loads, that 260 grain bullet is pretty good also.

Gary A
March 1, 2013, 11:31 AM
Not to veer too far from the main flow of this thread but, to me the 45 acp is a wonderful revolver cartridge. Just a great blend of size and power, at least for my purposes. I once had a couple of 625s that I let get away and when I went back to 45 acp revolvers this time, I have focused on Blackhawks and Vaqueros (convertibles). A Blackhawk is something like half the cost of a new 625 and is a great shooter. (And, it doesn't depend on moon clips, if that matters.) I like single actions best of all, anyway. I even have a couple (stainless and blued) of the limited run Birdshead New Vaqueros chambered solely in 45 acp.

Makes me happy. :)

kBob
March 1, 2013, 03:26 PM
Now that there Model22 upstream with the bone grips and Tyler T adapter is just plain pretty.

Great photography as well.

-kBob

mnhntr
March 1, 2013, 04:06 PM
Please do not take this the wrong way. I carry a 45acp as a daily carry and own quite a few revolvers. I also carry a revolver (LCR) as a bug or in hot weather clothes. I only say what I said because I believe in using the right tool for the job and not making something work. The 45acp in a wheel gun is big and heavy and impractical for carry. It is the best choice for competition in the revolver divisions of practical shooting groups. It is not the BEST choice for hunting. Will it work? Yes it will work fine but is not the better choice. To each his own but I feel there are better choices for hunting or carry.mnhntr, some of us do not feel handicapped with either a revolver or the 45 ACP cartridge. For most hunting, a 260 grain lead bullet at +/- 950 fps is a perfectly fine combination. Or a 280 grain lead bullet at about the same speed. More weight or more velocity gives more recoil and not much else. Both loads mentioned are easily achieved and usually give good accuracy. I was a big fan of the 44 Magnum, until I saw how the 45 long Colt did with black powder. Now, I try to duplicate the ballistics of the long Colt load, and the results have been consistently good. For defense loads, that 260 grain bullet is pretty good also.

Gary A
March 1, 2013, 04:25 PM
I feel there are better choices for hunting or carry.
I think that is no doubt true. Maybe no better choices for fun, though ;).

SwampWolf
March 1, 2013, 05:12 PM
Maybe no better choices for fun, though

And I think "that is no doubt true".

MrBorland
March 1, 2013, 05:46 PM
My 5" 625 .45acp, decked out for some match fun. As fun as it is, though, my speedloader-fed L-frame sees much more use.

http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp239/becke016/Fletcher625003.jpg

Bellevance
March 1, 2013, 06:24 PM
My 25-2 is the absolutely perfect complement to my 14-4. For my money, there's no better balanced, better shooting, or better looking pair of target revolvers.

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u119/Bellevance/pix1077394265.jpg

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u119/Bellevance/M14L1.jpg

Iggy
March 1, 2013, 07:20 PM
:scrutiny::)

Bellevance
March 1, 2013, 07:24 PM
Very nice, Iggy. But not .45 ACP. :cool:

Iggy
March 1, 2013, 07:33 PM
:rolleyes:

glockky
July 4, 2013, 12:57 PM
So are you guys just shooting auto rim in the 45 colt smith's

rcmodel
July 4, 2013, 01:07 PM
That's not possible.

You can't close the cylinder on a .45 Colt gun with the much thicker rimmed .45 AR cartridges in it.

rc

glockky
July 4, 2013, 01:43 PM
thanks for the info. This is probably one of the best threads I have ever read on here.

BlindJustice
July 4, 2013, 03:19 PM
Rim thickness

.45 Col (1873) is 0.0610"
45 Auto RIm (1922) is 0.0905"

as well as the case diameter just forward of the
rim being slightly greater diameter in the .45 Colt
so if one would want to convert a Ruger Blackhawk
to .45 uto RIm, start with the .45 ACP cylinger
NOT the ,45 Cikt ctkubder,

Corresponded with Hamilton Bowen on this project

I've got 350 or so roundes of .45 Auto Rim
.45 Auto RIm Leadhead hardcast
200 gr, SWC @ 1,000 FPS
& 40 rds of 225 gr. Barnes XPB HP @ 940 FPS

R-




R-

9mmfan
July 4, 2013, 05:21 PM
I haven't shot it in a while, but it sure is cool.
http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp225/9mmfan/E9C5589B-BC84-472B-ABE0-0308661DEED9-856-000000736C0F8587_zps12a4cbc8.jpg

glockky
July 4, 2013, 10:57 PM
So smith and Wesson did not make a model that shot both 45 colt and 45 acp. I was thinking at one time someone told me that had one that did. Maybe it was some kind of a custom.

rcmodel
July 4, 2013, 11:01 PM
No, it's not possible without two cylinders and two cranes.

Even then, the cylinder stud in the side of the frame would be in the wrong place for the shorter cylinder for .45 ACP/.45 AR.

Ruger & others make two cylinder guns but they are all single-actions.

The new S&W Governor shoots .45 Colt, .45 ACP, and .410 shotgun shells.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category4_750001_750051_769651_-1_757767_757751_image

Maybe that's what you heard about?

rc

murf
July 5, 2013, 01:36 AM
yes, s&w does make a model that shoots both. it is the model 25. different dash numbers are chambered for either the 45lc or the 45acp. none of the guns are chambered for both calibers.

one model number and two calibers is a bit confusing.

murf

glockky
July 5, 2013, 01:58 AM
So with a separate crane and cylinder could you shoot each caliber?

StrawHat
July 5, 2013, 07:05 AM
So with a separate crane and cylinder could you shoot each caliber?
Yes, if the revolver is originally a 45 ACP. Gun Digest had an article on converting the S&W 1917 to handle both the ACP and the 45 long Colt. The cylinder for the Colt cartridge was relieved where it would hit the frame stud. Bullets had to be seated deepoer for the long Colt cartridge also as I recall. There is a bit more to it and after reading the article, it is probably easier to have two seperate revolvers.

Vern Humphrey
July 5, 2013, 09:51 AM
Actually, they do -- the Governor shoots .45 Colt, .45 ACP and .410 shotgun.

But don't ask me why.

Dave T
July 5, 2013, 03:21 PM
People have taken Model 25-5s, chambered for the 45 Colt cartridge and had custom gunsmiths counter bore the cylinder to take moon clipped 45 ACPs. It's expensive and not every smith can do it but it can be done.

As stated by others, if you start with a 45 ACP gun/cylinder you would have to have another cylinder and crane fitted to the gun.

Dave

WC145
July 5, 2013, 09:19 PM
I'm late to this party, but I come with pics. I'm a fan of all things .45acp, including revolvers.

This snubby is an Austin Behlert customized 25-2. Back in the day if you wanted a short barreled big bore carry gun, you went to someone like Behlert or Jovino's and had them make you one. It is everything you would expect a gun built by a master gunsmith to be.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-IUZ9nCPmqEQ/T0oliH_MgyI/AAAAAAAAD8Y/kU9sRtCA1-U/w758-h553-no/SDC11834.JPG

This one is a .45acp S&W 28-2 customized by Marc Krebs of 1911 and AK fame. He built it back around 1987 for an IL cop, lots of machine and detail work, a great example of a top notch 'smith's talents.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-3d2dnAOhlts/UXmJ_zgxdnI/AAAAAAAAFWg/SOaUCIpoa8I/w1044-h497-no/SDC10203.JPG

S&W-Keeper
July 6, 2013, 09:50 AM
I have a couple of pre lock 625's. I like them a lot.I don't have anything negative to say about themVery accurate.

Deaf Smith
July 6, 2013, 07:34 PM
WC145,

That snub 625 I'd die for.... well not literally but that is an excellent wheelgun by far!

Now Clark Custom guns told me the 625 could take .45 Supers easily (and mine does.)

Love to get a 625 and do what you had that done! 230s at 1000 fps would do!

Deaf

CTGunner
July 6, 2013, 07:58 PM
This thread has legs...never expected it to become so popular.

Walkalong
July 6, 2013, 08:37 PM
Convinced to get a .45 ACP revolver yet? :)

savit260
July 7, 2013, 01:10 PM
People have taken Model 25-5s, chambered for the 45 Colt cartridge and had custom gunsmiths counter bore the cylinder to take moon clipped 45 ACPs. It's expensive and not every smith can do it but it can be done.
Pinnacle can convert 45 Colt cylinders to shoot both 45 Colt and 45 acp. Looks like the conversion is only $80. I wouldn't call that "expensive" .

http://www.pinnacle-guns.com/revolver.asp

jungle
July 7, 2013, 02:43 PM
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff249/jungle375/d0883c82.jpg (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/jungle375/media/d0883c82.jpg.html)

Dr_B
July 7, 2013, 03:21 PM
Cons are that you are shooting a pretty wimpy round out of that big of a gun. In the same size you could get an eight shot 357 or a six shot 44 Magnum.

Um, no. I would not characterize it as wimpy. Yes, you could shoot a .357 magnum or .44 magnum out of a similar-sized revolver. But a .45acp revolver is still in the hand-cannon category.

There is a man who shoots a .45acp revolver (like the target model in post #18 above) each monthly steel match at my range. He is always in the top 10, and sometimes top 5, at each match. He shoots reloaded lead rounds and occasionally knocks over a steel plate hanging on a 6-foot stand. The rounds out of that revolver hit targets with sort of a "shove," as I would describe it.

WC145
July 7, 2013, 03:21 PM
WC145,

That snub 625 I'd die for.... well not literally but that is an excellent wheelgun by far!

Now Clark Custom guns told me the 625 could take .45 Supers easily (and mine does.)

Love to get a 625 and do what you had that done! 230s at 1000 fps would do!

Deaf
Thanks. I can't claim anything but ownership on that revolver, except for a couple of minor repairs I had done, the custom work was done about 30 years ago!


savit260 - Pinnacle does excellent work, Mark did the repairs on my Behlert 25-2 and also customized another revovler for me.

Vern Humphrey
July 7, 2013, 03:48 PM
You know, if there are gun manufacturers hanging out on this thread, they just might take a hint. A decent .45 Colt revolver with the cylinder inlet for half moon clips for .45 ACP might be a great seller -- equal to the Judge or Governor.

And if they could talk an ammo manufacturer into making a .45 Colt shotshell . . .

rcmodel
July 7, 2013, 04:00 PM
http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/detail.aspx?loadNo=3746

They work good in a Colt SAA for snake control.

rc

Vern Humphrey
July 7, 2013, 04:03 PM
Now they need to advertise them better -- perhaps in conjunction with the release of a new .45/.45ACP revolver. They might even consider making them look like a shotshell.

RealGun
July 8, 2013, 08:57 AM
I think the size, weight, and balance of the 625JM on a N frame is what makes it a good target gun. I own both 625JM in (.45 ACP, 4") and 629 (in .44 Magnum, 5"), and they're basically the same gun with different cylinder lengths. The 625JM is an excellent bullseye shooter.

valnar
July 8, 2013, 11:38 AM
The Smith 625 PC is my favorite revolver and just might be my favorite handgun. The N frame soaks up the recoil similar to a good 1911. The moonclips are quick & easy to reload and very inexpensive compared to a magazine.

BlindJustice
July 8, 2013, 01:42 PM
Range Session yesterday

625-10 5" Bbl.

13 Full Moon clips of WWB 230 gr. FMJ

24 Rounds of Leadhead 200 gr. SWC @ 1,000 FPS

My shooting buddy, shot his G19 and G20 and would
pause every so often to pick jup brass.

I do-mooned the WWB later listening to the Mariners baseball game.

Personally, I don't think having a separate crane / cylinder is
a very good idea. If yah want a .45 Colt get a Ruger Blackhawk

R-

Agsalaska
July 8, 2013, 04:06 PM
I have a Colt 1917 dated 1919 in 98% condition. But I wont shoot it.

Taroman
July 9, 2013, 12:44 PM
625 are my favorite match guns.
Liked the first one so much that I grabbed another when it came along.
http://www.hverovhe.com/625s.jpg

meterman
July 9, 2013, 05:44 PM
Had a 25-2 and sadly, sold it. Still have a Colt 1917 and a Smith 625-2. The smartest thing that I ever did was deep-six those half-moon clips and go with auto rim brass. They are fun to shoot.

Walkalong
July 9, 2013, 07:24 PM
my favorite match gunsWhat grips are those?

Dave T
July 9, 2013, 11:27 PM
Pinnacle can convert 45 Colt cylinders to shoot both 45 Colt and 45 acp. Looks like the conversion is only $80. I wouldn't call that "expensive" .

savit,

I just shipped a gun to the Eastern US and FedEx charged me $76 one way (UPS was the same price). When you double that for going both ways and add your $80 it becomes over $230. That's dang close to "expensive" in my book. Fine if that's what you want and have to have but it isn't cheep.

Dave

rcmodel
July 9, 2013, 11:29 PM
But, you don't have to ship the whole 'firearm' to have the moon-clip conversion done.

You only have to ship the cylinder in a USPS small fixed-rate box.

rc

ghitch75
July 10, 2013, 08:40 AM
45ACP's?.....S&W 325PD,Webley converted to ACP,Colt 1917,S&W 25-2 and S&W 625JM

http://i39.tinypic.com/2w7mws4.jpg

2 conversion Blackhawk's...Redhawk 45C on the bottom..

http://i41.tinypic.com/2ajqeec.jpg

aka108
July 10, 2013, 08:50 AM
I had a few 1911's. Never really cared much about them. Didn't really like them when I was in the military also. Gave one to my Son and sold the other. Bought a S&W 625 and fell in love with the thing. Also had reloading gear for the 45 ACP. Just purchased a Ruger Blackhawk Convertible in 45LC/45ACP. It's going to the range today. For me the unending supply of free 45ACP brass is a plus. It sometimes carpets the concrete where I shoot.

savit260
July 10, 2013, 09:00 AM
savit,

I just shipped a gun to the Eastern US and FedEx charged me $76 one way (UPS was the same price). When you double that for going both ways and add your $80 it becomes over $230. That's dang close to "expensive" in my book. Fine if that's what you want and have to have but it isn't cheep.

Take the crane and cylinder off and ship them in a USPS small shipping box. Under $20 round trip.

As to shipping a whole gun.. Have your local FFL ship it for you. The price will be MUCH cheaper than trying to do it yourself.

EDIT TO ADD: Copied and pasted direct from the website.


Most conversions can be made by simply shipping the cylinder!








Return priority shipping for a cylinder is $7.00 and $1.00 for each additional cylinder.


Not exactly bank busting. ;)

BlindJustice
July 10, 2013, 11:51 AM
I believe the first time S&W ever made a revolver in
.45 Colt (and GASP, put that on thre barrel of
a S&W ) was in the mid-80s with the introduction
of the 25-5 S&W used the same model 25 nuber
because they had used up all the 20-29 numbers
schema.

Randall

Dave T
July 10, 2013, 02:36 PM
The last time I talked to a gunsmith about machining a cylinder for moon clips, he wanted the whole gun to make sure the clearance was proper between the clipped rounds and the standing breech/firing pin bushing. Guess he was too picky.

As for "having your FFL ship it", they charge both for the time and trouble and the USPS fee, which still ends up at around $100 to ship a gun both ways.

For those of you who have cheeper ways of doing this kind of stuff...well, good for you. Those options are not always available.

Dave

savit260
July 10, 2013, 05:43 PM
The $14 round trip is available.

If you choose to make it more expensive, I guess that's you're prerogative, but this doesn't need to be an expensive endeavor.

If you want to keep standing by your assertion that this is "expensive" , feel free, but the facts state otherwise.

rcmodel
July 10, 2013, 10:23 PM
This from Pinnacal moon-clip conversion website.
They are one of the best shops to do this work.



* Most conversions can be made by simply shipping the cylinder!

Return priority shipping for a cylinder is $7.00 and $1.00 for each additional cylinder.

rc

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